OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread

[oppyu]

You know what? I could pile on with the host of people disagreeing with the one guy who said Tarq's offensive ability is critically impaired without his axe, but that would be boring.

We haven't seen Tarquin inflict serious damage with anything aside from his big freaking axe. With his dagger he just parried and disarmed, with his shield and sword we don't see him actually hitting anyone. It is possible that his build is centred around using a big freaking axe to inflict damage (notice how when he decided that he was rejoining the epic campaign fray, his first thought was to get his big freaking axe out of storage), but as a fairly inactive general, he finds it more practical to carry daggers, whips and other weapons he can utilise defensively while his big freaking army swarms in and finishes the job.

I think there is some misunderstanding. His axe wasn't in storage; he was using it. If he had other axes in storage, it would be because he most likely doesn't need more than one at a time!

I'm really lost at where you are coming from...

When was Tarq using his axe before inferring that his axe was in storage? #822

[rrgg]

Oh great, kilkil is back with team evil now. The order of the stick can't even tie their shoes without it coming back around to bite them in thethe behind can they?

[ManuelSacha]

Oh great, kilkil is back with team evil now. The order of the stick can't even tie their shoes without it coming back around to bite them in thethe behind can they?

I'm guessing you mean the Linear Guild, and not Team Evil.
If that's the case... Kilkil never left it, he was only (momentarily) impaired.
However... I don't see where all the crying is coming from. Are you really that worried about underpowered cannon-fodder Kilkil?

[Edhelras]

Regarding the Zz'dtri smiling....
...and your sign language (is this even a thing it seems awfully goofy but w/e)...

The drow sign language was a cool feature of the drow in earlier editions and in particular in RA Salvatore's novels.
It allowed quite precise, soundless, sight-dependent communication, and when coupled with the previous infravision that drow and other Underdark creatures possessed, it allowed drow ambushers to coordinate their attacks while operating in total darkness. Because their hands gave off heat - so the hand movements used in the sign-making could be seen.
I think this was a really cool concept, contributing to the terrifying powers of the malevolent drow. But I can see that it was a difficult game mechanic, which is why it's been focused less on in later editions (is it still in at all?) and why infravision was replaced by the more bland darkvision property.

I wonder if this really stems from making drow playable characters? If they had remained NPC monsters, perhaps the issues with the sign language and even the infravision wouldn't have been that disruptive to game mechanics? Anyway, I feel that the need for balance that comes from drow becoming PCs, has kind of ruined some of that horrible, nightmarish, unpredictable, overwhelming evilness that the drow signified before.

My first encounter with the drow was actually in Baldur's Gate II (except from the first appearance of Drizzt in BG1), which I think created a very strong feeling of boundless evil and danger. And I also remember well the first reaction of the surface dwellers when Drizzt first came to the surface world, in Salvatore's novels. The alien-ness and horror - that's what I think drow should represent in the D&D game - and I think having them as PCs goes contrary to that.

[Killer Angel]

You know what? I could pile on with the host of people disagreeing with the one guy who said Tarq's offensive ability is critically impaired without his axe, but that would be boring.

Long story short: a whip does less damage than an axe. The axe was Tarquin's first weapon of choice, while the whip... the third one.
This doesn't mean that Tarquin isn't no more dangerous, but certainly his approach will be different.

Ironically, the only evidence we have to go on is that Tarquin's backup weapon ISN'T an axe, which argues directly against Fonkroder's claim that Tarquin's feat tree centers around his axe.

But he's also regretting for not having packed a spare axe. So, his backup weapon would have been another axe.

The emergency pouch is for unusual circumstances, and probably wasn't "upgraded" for the mission.

...but sure as hell, Tarquin knows some nasty whip-trick.

[sims796]

I always thought that his primary weapon was an axe, and he was skilled in a variety of back-up weapons.

[Reaver225]

Zzd'ti's smiley face just makes me want to smile too. He looks so happy!

[Bundin]

My reply in the #862 thread:

After my first reading I though "that sure is anti-climactic, howmany easy escapes are going to prolong this drawn out storyline?"

After the second reading, I realised that I haven't seen where they ended up though. "Out of the frying pan, into the fire" is very much an option here. If they end up somewhere safe, able to regroup/recover then yes, it'll be another boring escape from the LG. But I'll hold off judgement until I've seen the next few comics though :) Can't judge a story-writing decision without seeing at least part of the followup happenings.

Boring escape it is. My personal opinion on todays comic is "Anti-climactic with a dab of yawn". Looking forward to the next one though, hopefully one with meaningful progress involving Malack.

[taragui]

Nope, french for texture is texture tissure is not a french word *is french* ^^

Dictionaries happen to disagree with you.

Being a native speaker doesn't mean you know the entire vocabulary of a language.

[Kish]

I'm guessing you mean the Linear Guild, and not Team Evil.
If that's the case... Kilkil never left it, he was only (momentarily) impaired.
However... I don't see where all the crying is coming from. Are you really that worried about underpowered cannon-fodder Kilkil?

Guessing rrgg has Kilkil confused with Yukyuk.

[theinsulabot]

My reply in the #862 thread:


Boring escape it is. My personal opinion on todays comic is "Anti-climactic with a dab of yawn". Looking forward to the next one though, hopefully one with meaningful progress involving Malack.

the last strip was funny, kinda, but I will admit that it seemed like a buzzkill. reminds me of one of the kids shows in the 90's where the villain crawls off stage at the end of the show to avoid any meaningful plot development.


Status Quo is God

[hakflem]

Dictionaries happen to disagree with you.

Being a native speaker doesn't mean you know the entire vocabulary of a language.

You're partially right on this one,

But being a native allows you though to know whether a word is still in use or not. And as a fairly educated 39 yo french person, I can assure you I've never ever heard or read "tissure" in my life. And I can also assure you that french for texture is texture.

I also looked up that "tissure" word earlier today and I would probably say it's a very specific term used in very particular conditions/ or only used in a few rare jobs.

[Tundar]

Looking for (re)group ? But where's Richard ?

He's flying around on the back of a dragon, you know :)


This strip is pure awesome!
Even I got the hidden references.

[FujinAkari]

Dictionaries happen to disagree with you.

Being a native speaker doesn't mean you know the entire vocabulary of a language.

that's because you're using the wrong dictionary. Looking at an English to French dictionary will tell you that The French word for Texture is Texture

[hakflem]

Long story short: a whip does less damage than an axe. The axe was Tarquin's first weapon of choice, while the whip... the third one.
This doesn't mean that Tarquin isn't no more dangerous, but certainly his approach will be different.



But he's also regretting for not having packed a spare axe. So, his backup weapon would have been another axe.

The emergency pouch is for unusual circumstances, and probably wasn't "upgraded" for the mission.

...but sure as hell, Tarquin knows some nasty whip-trick.

I'd wager that being an epic level warrior Tarquin will have a truckload of Feats (Spring Attack, Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Trip/ Sunder/ Disarm, Combat Reflexes) that will allow him some fancy tricks with a whip's reach and Rich's imagination :)

I'm a little rusty on D&D v3.5, so forgive me if I make a mistake here, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him make a lot of Attacks of Opportunity on V or D (more so since V doesn't seem to have that great a Concentration skill and will possibly fizzle should the two eventually meet), and possibly Halley while she's sniping the LG.

On the other hand, I just checked on the D20srd website, and AoO with whips is a big no no (you don't seem to threaten the area), so off goes my theory !

Back to Indiana Jones references then I suppose or the whip he'll be using stores a few nasty surprises

[hakflem]

looking for group is a popular webcomic

To each his own I guess, but after reading 100ish pages I got fed up with it. I couldn't draw even if my life depended on it, but I'm not trying to make a living out of it, but the guy(s) who draw LFG would really need to learn what perspectives mean...

It's just yet another badly drawn copy of several GOOD webcomics (OOTS, /gu..., Noddwick), set in a very WoW flavoured universe (you know: gaudy colours, huge weapons & armours, classes), some D&D (beholder), Everquest(LFG, hail jokes), Star Wars, a Song of Ice & Fire among others "very subtle, funny" references, filled with the most ridiculous heroic fantasy/ RPGs clichés you could find.

Move along, this is not the webcomics we're looking for.

[JCAll]

I guess this comic guarantees that T is fighting Xykon at some point. If there's one thing I know it's that guys with whips are the natural enemy of the undead.

[Jay R]

Well, in any case, would it be fair to call Elan John Williams?

Elan is one of the twins separated at birth, whose father is the masked and armored warlord of the empress.

Adding this one other piece of data (last panel), I conclude that he is Leia.

[FujinAkari]

I'd wager that being an epic level warrior

We should note that neither epic level nor warrior are anything more than speculation and certainly not reinforced by anything in the comic.

All that we KNOW abotu Tarquin is that he is at least 17th level.

[Finagle]

It is possible that his build is centred around using a big freaking axe to inflict damage (notice how when he decided that he was rejoining the epic campaign fray, his first thought was to get his big freaking axe out of storage)

Mmmmm, that doesn't mean it was his #1 weapon. It just meant that he needed to impersonate Thog, whose primary weapon is an axe. "My axe" can refer to any possession, like "my sword", "my whip", or "my bec-de-corbin". It doesn't necessarily mean that this particular axe is Tarquin's favored weapon.

[Mr. Pants]

It's too bad that Tarquin doesn't realize that Malack is trapped behind an iron door and therefore doesn't realize what's going on...

[Snails]

I wonder if this really stems from making drow playable characters? If they had remained NPC monsters, perhaps the issues with the sign language and even the infravision wouldn't have been that disruptive to game mechanics? Anyway, I feel that the need for balance that comes from drow becoming PCs, has kind of ruined some of that horrible, nightmarish, unpredictable, overwhelming evilness that the drow signified before.

My first encounter with the drow was actually in Baldur's Gate II (except from the first appearance of Drizzt in BG1), which I think created a very strong feeling of boundless evil and danger. And I also remember well the first reaction of the surface dwellers when Drizzt first came to the surface world, in Salvatore's novels. The alien-ness and horror - that's what I think drow should represent in the D&D game - and I think having them as PCs goes contrary to that.

I like the idea of the sign language. Regarding Infravision, that was just a cheesy pseudo-scientific explanation that created more questions than it answered. Things underground are all extremely close to the exact same temperature. Infravision does not explain why those Drow just do not fall into open pits all the time.

The drive to standardize Drow was well underway in the timeframe in 1e, and became ever greater over time. IMNSHO the underlying problem was the economic drive to pump out material for a popular concept, that resulted in a growing volume of depressingly unoriginal material. Playing Drow as PCs was just the end result of Drow that were already merely elves with an evil paintjob and a few magic tricks.

The original material for Drow in G3/D1-3/Q1 suggests that Drow worship many Demonlords -- it only so happens that the plot the PCs care about primarily concerns Lolth. In Deities & Demigods we see Correllian and Lolth given primacy over all elvish existence, which is contrary to the spirit of Gygax's original notes. Once we hit 2e, it all goes rapidly down hill...

[THeBigZ]

Great Comic! Can't Wait For The Next One! Haha, And Now We Know Where Elan Was!!

[loser0ll]

Huh... Does anyone else feel like this comic just gave us a bit of a hint that Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is most likely a man? Or is it just me? I realize it isn't foolproof evidence, I will admit, but it does seem to indicate that either the father is incompetent in gender discrimination, or Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is breaking the usual gender-based policies that seem to be followed by characters in this comic, or Vaarsuvius is a male. Does anyone else know what I mean here?

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh... Does anyone else feel like this comic just gave us a bit of a hint that Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is most likely a man? Or is it just me? I realize it isn't foolproof evidence, I will admit, but it does seem to indicate that either the father is incompetent in gender discrimination, or Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is breaking the usual gender-based policies that seem to be followed by characters in this comic, or Vaarsuvius is a male. Does anyone else know what I mean here?

First, you're spelling Vaarsuvius correctly.

Second, Tarquin is referring to the Linear Guild as "this evil adventuring party", and Vaarsuvius - despite some, including me, insisting before the Giant inscribed "Vaarsuvius is True Neutral" on tablets of sapphire alongside "Belkar is Chaotic Evil," "Durkon is Lawful Good," and "Tarquin is Lawful Evil" - that Vaarsuvius was some variety of evil, is not with the Linear Guild. By no stretch of the imagination is Tarquin referring to Vaarsuvius at any point in this strip.

Third, even if Tarquin was referring to Vaarsuvius, it wouldn't make a difference. Characters have applied gendered pronouns to Vaarsuvius before, reflecting nothing more than their own perceptions and biases, rather than the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. Tarquin might sometimes seem omniscient and omnipotent, but really, he isn't, and his opinion on this subject especially, which he has studied with much less care than, say, the art of mollifying a petulant dragon, is no more valid than any other character's.

[loser0ll]

First, you're spelling Vaarsuvius correctly.

Second, Tarquin is referring to the Linear Guild as "this evil adventuring party", and Vaarsuvius - despite some, including me, insisting before the Giant inscribed "Vaarsuvius is True Neutral" on tablets of sapphire alongside "Belkar is Chaotic Evil," "Durkon is Lawful Good," and "Tarquin is Lawful Evil" - that Vaarsuvius was some variety of evil, is not with the Linear Guild. By no stretch of the imagination is Tarquin referring to Vaarsuvius at any point in this strip.

Third, even if Tarquin was referring to Vaarsuvius, it wouldn't make a difference. Characters have applied gendered pronouns to Vaarsuvius before, reflecting nothing more than their own perceptions and biases, rather than the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. Tarquin might sometimes seem omniscient and omnipotent, but really, he isn't, and his opinion on this subject especially, which he has studied with much less care than, say, the art of mollifying a petulant dragon, is no more valid than any other character's.

1) Thanks for clarifying that my spelling was correct.
2) I realized in advance that nobody was referring to Vaarsuvius directly.
3) I was basing it off of the fact that everyone else matched the gender of their comparative opposite, so I assumed that since he had referred to in a way that clearly indicated that every member was a male now that Nale's focus was Banished for 24 hours, it made it seem likely that Vaarsuvius also matched the gender of the Drow there - male, unless the father was incorrect in his assumptions.

[hakflem]

We should note that neither epic level nor warrior are anything more than speculation and certainly not reinforced by anything in the comic.

All that we KNOW abotu Tarquin is that he is at least 17th level.

Sigh....

Ok then, so let's call it educated guesses. Does that suit you better ?
Considering Tarquin must have been adventuring for far longer than The OOTS have, seems to have been be very succesful at staying alive despite a lot of opposition, monsters, PCs, assassins, that he's been the ruler of an empire of doom for a long time, and that said OOTS members are around level 15 by the end of the latest book IIRC, I'd even bet he's to lvl 30 than lvl17.

Now considering everyone sees T as a very defensive NPC, what better class than fighter can provide him with the proper list of skills (guess who's got heaps of skill points to spend on Handle Animal to teach his mount handy tricks and Ride (dragon/ dinosaur/ horse) and feats ?

10 gp says he's got Infinite Deflection and/ or Exceptionnal Deflection,
25 pp says he's also got an impressive array of other offensive feats:
Combat Expertise (speculation again but he looks like a smart guy in my book just like Roy except he's been doing it for 30 more years),
The whole series of Improved <XXXX> feats to avoid causing AoO,
Deflect/ Snatch Arrows,
Dodge -> Whirlwind Attack,
Epic/ Greater Weapon Spec. (Great Axe),
Epic/ Greater Weapon Focus (Great Axe),
Improved critical (Great Axe),
Power Attack,
(Great) Cleave,
Dire Charge,
Overwhelming/ Devastating Critical (Great Axe),
Damage Reduction (with Epic Feats & armour ?) ?

Add in a huge stack of HPs to be able to toy with the OOTS on top of the pyramid for a few rounds without any major trouble even when Haley backstabs him, and there you go.

Don't let his fleeing and defensive fighting deceive you, he can single handedly kick the OOTs' butt any time he wants just like Xykon would, and he will do so when he's done playing with both his sons.

He's definitely not a Barbarian (not thick enough), nor Ranger, or Paladin (yeah right) so I guess Blackguard is also out of the way too. What's left ? Assassin ? Dwarven Defender ? Eldricht Knight ? Marshal ?

With such a high BAB, fighter is the only answer we have left IMO, but who am I to make such dumb asumptions ?

[jere7my]

3) I was basing it off of the fact that everyone else matched the gender of their comparative opposite, so I assumed that since he had referred to in a way that clearly indicated that every member was a male now that Nale's focus was Banished for 24 hours, it made it seem likely that Vaarsuvius also matched the gender of the Drow there - male, unless the father was incorrect in his assumptions.

We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male. It doesn't mean anything — Hilgya, Durkon's original counterpart, was female.

[zimmerwald1915]

Sigh....

Ok then, so let's call it educated guesses. Does that suit you better ?

"Rabid fanboying leading said rabid fanboy to make up evidence to fit a preconceived notion" would suit just fine.

Considering Tarquin must have been adventuring for far longer than The OOTS have, seems to have been be very succesful at staying alive despite a lot of opposition, monsters, PCs, assassins, that he's been the ruler of an empire of doom for a long time, and that said OOTS members are around level 15 by the end of the latest book IIRC, I'd even bet he's to lvl 30 than lvl17.

Shojo's sixty or so years on the throne, dealing with precisely the sort of problems you mention (opposition, monsters, PCs, and especially assassins) were worth fourteen levels of an NPC class. Redcloak's four months of ruling a city and dealing with these threats, but also surviving an attack by an uber-wizard with an ECL so high that defeating the ABD didn't give her XP, got him one level in his preexisting PC class. Tarquin has put twenty years into his little scheme, so let's be generous and give him five levels for it, more than Shojo's fairly ruler-average tenure would suggest, but less than Redcloak's outlier of a tenure.

Twenty years ago, when Tarquin came to the Western Continent, he was strong enough to conquer a kingdom and kill its king, but weak enough to get sent packing and literally, from what we're shown, running for his life, by a coalition of rival powers. He was also low-level enough that he and his party had to raid a dungeon for startup cash to fuel his scheme, rather than, say, simply selling a magic item or two that they owned. This sounds about commensurate with level 12. Incidentally, Tarquin compares his image of himself in his adventuring days to Roy, who is at least a level 12 fighter and is probably not more than level 15.

10 gp says he's got Infinite Deflection and/ or Exceptionnal Deflection,
25 pp says he's also got an impressive array of other offensive feats:
Combat Expertise (speculation again but he looks like a smart guy in my book just like Roy except he's been doing it for 30 more years),
The whole series of Improved <XXXX> feats to avoid causing AoO,
Deflect/ Snatch Arrows,
Dodge -> Whirlwind Attack,
Epic/ Greater Weapon Spec. (Great Axe),
Epic/ Greater Weapon Focus (Great Axe),
Improved critical (Great Axe),
Power Attack,
(Great) Cleave,
Dire Charge,
Overwhelming/ Devastating Critical (Great Axe),
Damage Reduction (with Epic Feats & armour ?) ?

Add in a huge stack of HPs to be able to toy with the OOTS on top of the pyramid for a few rounds without any major trouble even when Haley backstabs him, and there you go.

Don't let his fleeing and defensive fighting deceive you, he can single handedly kick the OOTs' butt any time he wants just like Xykon would, and he will do so when he's done playing with both his sons.

I think the disconnect we have here is that you severely overestimate the power needed to achieve what Tarquin has actually achieved. You don't need to be Epic to be awesome. You don't need to be Epic to be staggeringly competent. You don't need to be Epic to have crazy amounts of resources and, if you're a fighter anyway, crazy amounts of feats. Most people in OOTSworld, as illustrated by Celia, Evisceratus, Solt, etc. have very few levels in NPC classes. PC classes are the exception. As Qarr points out, reaching double digits in a PC class is a rare and special thing.

Of the feats you attribute to Tarquin, only Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, and probably some of the improved combat maneuvers feats are necessary to explain his actual, observed feats. The rest? That's all out of your head, buddy. Sure, if he's level 30 he would have a lot of feats unaccounted for, and maybe some of them would be on your list. But if he's level 17 and a fighter he'd still have a lot of feats unaccounted for. Either way, there's no real reason except rabid fanboyism to believe that any of those feats you mention, besides those he's demonstrated, have made the cut.

Coda: I agree with you that he's probably a fighter. We disagree on his probable level. I don't think Tarquin needs to be Epic to make his exploits believable. I further believe that making him Epic would diminish Epicness as a quality. As far as we know, the only Epic characters in the setting have been the Order of the Scribble, the precursors whose actions set up the main plot, and Xykon, the Big Bad whose actions drive the main plot. Making Tarquin, a side-plot antagonist, Epic decouples Epicness from relevance to the arc of the story.

We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male. It doesn't mean anything — Hilgya, Durkon's original counterpart, was female.

This.

[ti'esar]

3) I was basing it off of the fact that everyone else matched the gender of their comparative opposite, so I assumed that since he had referred to in a way that clearly indicated that every member was a male now that Nale's focus was Banished for 24 hours, it made it seem likely that Vaarsuvius also matched the gender of the Drow there - male, unless the father was incorrect in his assumptions.

If we take this assumption as granted, then Durkon is female.

Edit: Which I see a few people have already pointed this out.

To each his own I guess, but after reading 100ish pages I got fed up with it. I couldn't draw even if my life depended on it, but I'm not trying to make a living out of it, but the guy(s) who draw LFG would really need to learn what perspectives mean...

It's just yet another badly drawn copy of several GOOD webcomics (OOTS, /gu..., Noddwick), set in a very WoW flavoured universe (you know: gaudy colours, huge weapons & armours, classes), some D&D (beholder), Everquest(LFG, hail jokes), Star Wars, a Song of Ice & Fire among others "very subtle, funny" references, filled with the most ridiculous heroic fantasy/ RPGs clichés you could find.

Move along, this is not the webcomics we're looking for.

While I have no intention of getting into an argument about the relative merits of webcomics (or any other works of fiction), I'm very confused as to how anything you say here invalidates the claim that "Looking For Group is a popular webcomic". I don't like it very much either, but that hardly equates to it being unpopular.