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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    From what I remember about the Needler is that it had slow moving shots and pretty short ranged. That being said it's still a very good close ranged weapon that would be pretty devastating to the average Imperial Guardsmen.

    Now let me counter with a good Imperial weapon. The Melta gun. This weapon will pretty much kill anything that's smaller then 10 feet. Commonly used to kill heavy tanks such as the Land Raider and Monolith. There isn't much that can actually take hits from Melta guns in the 40K universe outside of deamons and giant monsters.

    Melta guns are pretty common too and it is reasonable to expect to see them in any Imperial guard army with a dedicated tank buster unit. Easily carried but pretty short ranged (I would say about the same as a Needler). Except for it's big brother the Multi-Melta. Same devastating damage at twice the range. This gun is generally mounted on light vehicles or transports. Basically anything that gets in close. It can be carried by infantry but rarely as it's too heavy to shoot without setting it up first.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Now let me counter with a good Imperial weapon. The Melta gun.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wrong counter. You were looking for Flamers, that have a good 25-50 meter flame, or Heavy Flamers... Which are pretty much the same range, but burn-ier.

    This is about the effective range of the Needler, before people can just duck behind something, anyway.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Bah, cyclone torpidoes.
    Took them like 20 ships and long time.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    You all may have forgotten about the Drones. The human-sized flying bugs that generally wield shield and armor ruining Plasma Pistols and heat-seeking Needlers. They travel in swarms of twenty to several hundred, and are extremely maneuverable. They also reproduce like bugs. Because they are bugs (that was a joke; a really bad one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Now let me counter with a good Imperial weapon. The Melta gun. This weapon will pretty much kill anything that's smaller then 10 feet. Commonly used to kill heavy tanks such as the Land Raider and Monolith. There isn't much that can actually take hits from Melta guns in the 40K universe outside of deamons and giant monsters.
    You know what sucks about this fact? Hunters. Mgalekgolo can be formed in any size, shape, or construct. Thus, it wouldn't be much of an issue for them. The average size of them is also 12 feet . Considering they're the rough-and-tumble guys, in a situation in which the forces could be devastated, Hunters are sent in to back them up. They tend to be kept to a smaller size for numerous reasons:

    • They're a hive mind of worms, so it's inconvenient to use a lot to form one when you could make say, three.
    • The area of battle isn't always able to accept their large size. In Prototype and The Duel(the Legends shorts), Hunters that were far past the average size were seen.


    It's not like the Hunters wield incredibly lethal weaponry either, right?

    So we're ignoring the Needle Rifle, and it's effective range of several hundred meters? C'mon, that thing is even more lethal. It just takes a steady hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wrong counter. You were looking for Flamers, that have a good 25-50 meter flame, or Heavy Flamers... Which are pretty much the same range, but burn-ier.

    This is about the effective range of the Needler, before people can just duck behind something, anyway.
    So we're ignoring the Needle Rifle, and it's effective range of several hundred meters? C'mon, that thing is even more lethal. It just takes a steady hand.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-16 at 11:05 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    So we're ignoring the Needle Rifle, and it's effective range of several hundred meters? C'mon, that thing is even more lethal. It just takes a steady hand.
    The Needle Rifle is not the Needler, and had nothing to do with the point I was making.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    You know what sucks about this fact? Hunters. Mgalekgolo can be formed in any size, shape, or construct. Thus, it wouldn't be much of an issue for them. The average size of them is also 12 feet . Considering they're the rough-and-tumble guys, in a situation in which the forces could be devastated, Hunters are sent in to back them up. They tend to be kept to a smaller size for numerous reasons:

    • They're a hive mind of worms, so it's inconvenient to use a lot to form one when you could make say, three.
    • The area of battle isn't always able to accept their large size. In Prototype and The Duel(the Legends shorts), Hunters that were far past the average size were seen.


    It's not like the Hunters wield incredibly lethal weaponry either, right?


    So we're ignoring the Needle Rifle, and it's effective range of several hundred meters? C'mon, that thing is even more lethal. It just takes a steady hand.
    If the melta gun hits the Hunter's shield it might, might survive. Otherwise it will be pretty much utterly annihilated. Meltas punch holes in pretty much anything that can't ignore the laws of physics. Big holes.

    As for the Needle rifle, well I can't remember any needle rifles when I played. Which game did they show up in?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The Needle Rifle is not the Needler, and had nothing to do with the point I was making.
    And yet it behaves just like the Needler, except with a scope and non-target seeking projectiles. It's still relevant to your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The Needle Rifle is not the Needler, and had nothing to do with the point I was making.
    And yet it behaves just like the Needler, except with a scope and non-target seeking projectiles. It's still relevant to your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    As for the Needle rifle, well I can't remember any needle rifles when I played. Which game did they show up in?
    Reach and Halo 4. Canonically, they've always been a part of the Covenant arsenal. Retcons say the Master Chief did encounter them during the Installation-04 incident, New Mombasa invasion, his battles in the African jungles, the battle for the Ark, and the destruction of Installation-04. We just didn't see them.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-16 at 11:09 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    You know, given the turn the conversation has taken, maybe it would be more constructive (and generally speaking) more fun, to put a new twist on this vs thread, and turn it into a construction thread.

    It might not be entirely the right sub forum, but would anyone be opposed to helping me tease out the details of what a Covenant Army List would look like in 40k rules?

    I mean, part of the problem we've been having is that Halo are primarily video games centered around a lot of intense infantry fire fights that always tend to favor the heroic player character, and the novels, in which authors tend to play up certain elements or ignore others for the sake of drama (which they are perfectly right in doing).

    40k on the other hand is a game system designed to simulate exactly the conflict we are envisioning between Covenant and Imperial ground forces, with rules for soldiers, weapons and army construction (lord knows Halo Wars wasn't exactly a reliable source for any of that and is largely considered an embarrassing part of the EU).

    So is anyone else with me? I'm not entirely up to speed on the 5th edition rules of 40k, but I've raised and played two armies (Space Marines and Eldar) through 3rd and 4th editions. I've played all three Halo games and read Fall of Reach, and The Flood, so I think I'm up to speed on most of the canon elements and details there. It might not help us decide some of the more finicky space battle questions, but it sure might go a long way in helping to determine whether the Covenant could go toe to toe with the Imperium's finest (also the IG XD).
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    And yet it behaves just like the Needler, except with a scope and non-target seeking projectiles. It's still relevant to your point.
    No. It really isn't. My point was that the NEEDLER is an EFFECTIVELY SHORT RANGE WEAPON, and should be compared to them. If I wanted to make a comment on the NEEDLE RIFLE I would compare it to a weapon that works in a similarly sniperish way, like a LongLas.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    Reach and Halo 4. Canonically, they've always been a part of the Covenant arsenal. Retcons say the Master Chief did encounter them during the Installation-04 incident, New Mombasa invasion, his battles in the African jungles, the battle for the Ark, and the destruction of Installation-04. We just didn't see them.
    Ah. Well that's why I wouldn't have any familiarity on them. I'll leave it to people who have actually played those games to comment on the Needle Rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    You know, given the turn the conversation has taken, maybe it would be more constructive (and generally speaking) more fun, to put a new twist on this vs thread, and turn it into a construction thread.

    It might not be entirely the right sub forum, but would anyone be opposed to helping me tease out the details of what a Covenant Army List would look like in 40k rules?

    I mean, part of the problem we've been having is that Halo are primarily video games centered around a lot of intense infantry fire fights that always tend to favor the heroic player character, and the novels, in which authors tend to play up certain elements or ignore others for the sake of drama (which they are perfectly right in doing).

    40k on the other hand is a game system designed to simulate exactly the conflict we are envisioning between Covenant and Imperial ground forces, with rules for soldiers, weapons and army construction (lord knows Halo Wars wasn't exactly a reliable source for any of that and is largely considered an embarrassing part of the EU).

    So is anyone else with me? I'm not entirely up to speed on the 5th edition rules of 40k, but I've raised and played two armies (Space Marines and Eldar) through 3rd and 4th editions. I've played all three Halo games and read Fall of Reach, and The Flood, so I think I'm up to speed on most of the canon elements and details there. It might not help us decide some of the more finicky space battle questions, but it sure might go a long way in helping to determine whether the Covenant could go toe to toe with the Imperium's finest (also the IG XD).
    Sure. We can even put in point value for everything afterwards. If we get really ambitious we can write up the naval abilities under battlefleet gothic rules.

    But we will need someone with more Halo experience then I to help. My knowledge is pretty basic.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    I think we should start with fleshing out the basline statistics of the mainstay Covenant troops: Grunts, Jackals, Elites, Brutes, Hunters, and Drones.

    For those of you not familiar, 40 uses a base of statistics
    1. Ballistic Skill- A unit's proficiency with ranged weapons
    2. Weapon Skill- A unit's proficiency in close combat
    3. Strength- How strong a unit hits in close combat
    4. Tougness- The threshold before a unit suffers a wound
    5. Wounds- How many wounds a unit can take before becoming a casualty
    6. Initiative- Determines a unit's order to act in close combat
    7. Attacks- How many close combat attacks a unit makes
    8. Leadership- General morale and ability to keep a cool head
    9. Armor Save (if any)- An additional save made by the unit representing armor worn against any wounds suffered.


    I don't want to go too much into the specifics of the rules themselves, but here's my first best attempt at stating out Covenant troops:

    Grunt
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    2|3|2|2|1|2|1|6|5+
    [/table]
    Jackal
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    3|3|3|3|1|3|1|7|6+
    [/table]
    Drone
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    3|3|3|3|1|3|1|5|6+
    [/table]
    Elite
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    4|4|4|4|1|4|1|8|4+
    [/table]
    Brute
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    4|3|4|4|1|3|1|7|4+
    [/table]
    Hunter
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    4|3|6|6|3|3|1|7|2+
    [/table]

    Stats for the average Imperial Guardsman (aka human soldier) for comparison.
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    3|3|3|3|1|3|1|7|5+
    [/table]

    As we can see, I've put the Jackal on about equal terms with a Guardsman apart form it's armor save (since they seem to wear very little in the way of armor). The Kig-Yar point defense gauntlet will be covered later once we get to equipment.

    Since Elites generally seem to be on par with the average Spartan II I figured they'd stat out pretty much the same as Space Marines, except for the fact that they're wearing considerably less armor.

    Same basic approach with Brutes, except that since they clearly favor close quarters combat (which includes getting up close and personal to fire on your enemy with pistol weapons, as they seem to enjoy doing), I gave them a slightly reduced ballistic skill. Also, they definitely don't wear as much armor as Elites or Spartans, or commonly have shield generators.

    Drones and Grunts are the species I know the least about in terms of relative capacities. Given the rate at which one plows through them both however, I tended to put them at slightly below human norms.

    Hunters are about on par with Tyranid Warriors or Hive Tyrants, just shy of a Canifex or Eldar Wraithlord in terms of wounds and toughness and with the best armor save around.

    Any initial thoughts on changes?
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-16 at 11:43 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    You know, given the turn the conversation has taken, maybe it would be more constructive (and generally speaking) more fun, to put a new twist on this vs thread, and turn it into a construction thread.

    It might not be entirely the right sub forum, but would anyone be opposed to helping me tease out the details of what a Covenant Army List would look like in 40k rules?

    I mean, part of the problem we've been having is that Halo are primarily video games centered around a lot of intense infantry fire fights that always tend to favor the heroic player character, and the novels, in which authors tend to play up certain elements or ignore others for the sake of drama (which they are perfectly right in doing).

    40k on the other hand is a game system designed to simulate exactly the conflict we are envisioning between Covenant and Imperial ground forces, with rules for soldiers, weapons and army construction (lord knows Halo Wars wasn't exactly a reliable source for any of that and is largely considered an embarrassing part of the EU).

    So is anyone else with me? I'm not entirely up to speed on the 5th edition rules of 40k, but I've raised and played two armies (Space Marines and Eldar) through 3rd and 4th editions. I've played all three Halo games and read Fall of Reach, and The Flood, so I think I'm up to speed on most of the canon elements and details there. It might not help us decide some of the more finicky space battle questions, but it sure might go a long way in helping to determine whether the Covenant could go toe to toe with the Imperium's finest (also the IG XD).
    Well, the frontlines would be squads of Elite Minors and Grunts of varying armaments (from Plasma Pistols and Needlers to Fuel Rod Cannons), with a group of Elite Majors (wielding Plasma Rifles and Repeaters, possibly Concussion Rifles, as well as Energy Swords) backing the squads up.

    Jackals would be operating in groups, providing mobile cover for the other infantry while making shots with Needlers and Plasma pistols. Skirmishers would also be working as a high-speed distraction to make their enemy's lives that much more miserable. Posted behind the aforementioned Elite squads would be the sharpshooters, using weapons like the Needle Rifle, Carbine Rifle, Focus Rifle, etcetera (the Covenant has a lot of options for long-range infantry).

    Brute squads would be brought in while the engagement is occurring with more explosive and overall... Brutal weaponry. Brute shots, Spikers, Concussion Rifles, and the like while they ride on their very big, very spiky vehicles. Should they be brought down to a single troop, he'll ditch all weaponry and, for lack of a better term (okay, that's a lie, I just want to say this), Leeroy Jenkins the offending foes.

    Hunters would be brought in after the fight has shown either side has grown weaker to act as an efficient defense, or powerful offense. Due to their varying size, they could be a dozen feet or even several meters tall. With massive, full-body shields and plasma mortars or cannons attached to their arms, the Hunter colonies are very dangerous. Coupled with the fact that they are exactly that (a couple, generally recognized as bond-brothers), if one dies, the other will fight harder to preserve their memories of the lost.

    I'll cover vehicles later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    No. It really isn't. My point was that the NEEDLER is an EFFECTIVELY SHORT RANGE WEAPON, and should be compared to them. If I wanted to make a comment on the NEEDLE RIFLE I would compare it to a weapon that works in a similarly sniperish way, like a LongLas.
    I guess you're not open to having a casual argument, and wish to treat this as serious business, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Brute
    {table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
    4|3|4|4|1|3|1|7|4+
    [/table]
    I don't think Brutes are that squishy. In fact, they're so tough that they don't need energy shields. They can use them, sure, but they're even more durable than an Elite despite this!

    Grunts also have this nasty habit of activating two Plasma Grenades, adhering them to their palms, and suicidally charging towards their enemies, flailing about like a maniac. Considering they're able to take out an overshielded Spartan like this, it's not too far fetched to assume they'd take out a few Space Marines like that.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-16 at 11:46 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I don't think Brutes are that squishy. In fact, they're so tough that they don't need energy shields. They can use them, sure, but they're even more durable than an Elite despite this!

    Grunts also have this nasty habit of activating two Plasma Grenades, adhering them to their palms, and suicidally charging towards their enemies, flailing about like a maniac. Considering they're able to take out an overshielded Spartan like this, it's not too far fetched to assume they'd take out a few Space Marines like that.
    Hmmm . . . I could be convinced of making Brute Toughness 5 but Toughness 4 is by no means squishy. That's in the same league as Space Marines, Ork Boyz and Necron Warriors (who are basically T-800s). I'd be open as well to representing their increased heartiness with a special rule of some kind, like forcing re-rolls from weapons hits below a certain strength threshold? Might be simpler just to make them toughness 5.

    Also don't antagonize Kinslayer. His point was valid and it was completely ignored by the second post about Needle Rifles, since they do in fact function more like sniper rifles than Needlers (even if they fire the same 'needle' ammunition).
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-16 at 11:53 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    I would drop the toughness and wounds of the Hunters by one I think. And perhaps iniative as well. I don't remember them being particularly agile when I played. I think you could up their morale by one though.

    Carbine: S: 3 Range: 24 AP: - Assault 1

    Plasma Rifle: S: 3 Range: 18 AP: - Assault 2

    Needler: S: 4 Range: 12 AP: 4 Assault 2

    Covenant Sniper Rifle: S:X Range: 36 AP: 4 Heavy 1 (Making it one of the best Sniper Rifles out there. )

    Energy sword is a power sword

    Gravity Hammer is a two-handed thunder hammer


    Ghost acts as a Jet Bike with a twinlinked Plasma Rifle. Gives a 3+ save.

    Banshee gives the Flight and Skyfire rules. Gives +1 T and a 3+ save. Has a twinlinked Plasma Rifle.

    By the way don't Jackels carry energy shields? That should give them a 4+ save at least.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I would drop the toughness and wounds of the Hunters by one I think. And perhaps iniative as well. I don't remember them being particularly agile when I played. I think you could up their morale by one though.

    Carbine: S: 3 Range: 24 AP: - Assault 1

    Plasma Rifle: S: 3 Range: 18 AP: - Assault 2

    Needler: S: 4 Range: 12 AP: 4 Assault 2

    Covenant Sniper Rifle: S:X Range: 36 AP: 4 Heavy 1 (Making it one of the best Sniper Rifles out there. )

    Energy sword is a power sword

    Gravity Hammer is a two-handed thunder hammer


    Ghost acts as a Jet Bike with a twinlinked Plasma Rifle. Gives a 3+ save.

    Banshee gives the Flight and Skyfire rules. Gives +1 T and a 3+ save. Has a twinlinked Plasma Rifle.

    By the way don't Jackels carry energy shields? That should give them a 4+ save at least.
    Seeing as the Beam Carbine is in fact a carbine and not a full fledged rifle, I'm actually inclined to give it an 18" in range on par with the Tau Pulse Carbine. I am however torn since it does have a scope and a range seemingly comparable to the Battle Rifle.

    I'm also inclined to cut down the range of the Plasma 'Rifle' as well, seeing as how they're much more like submachine guns and can be wielded like pistols (definitely going to say they use the Pistol Grip rules, like Bolters can).

    Also, I think we're missing the point of the Needler. It seems to me it should have an Armor Penetration value of 5 rather than 4, but should ignore armor saves on a to wound roll of 6 (representing when you manage to stick enough Needles into someone for them to explode all at once). That way it's still more or less ineffectual against armor (as it seems to be) but has an out. Also, autoglances vehicles on 6.

    Definitely like those vehicle rules you churned out, and as for the Jackal Kig-Yar point defense gauntlets, I had something special in mind.

    They provide a 3+ Cover Save on any turn where the unit does does not both move and shoot. That is, any turn where they are stationary and firing, they get a 3+ cover save and or any turn where they are moving and don't shoot, they also get that save. Sound good?
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    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Well, the frontlines would be squads of Elite Minors and Grunts of varying armaments (from Plasma Pistols and Needlers to Fuel Rod Cannons), with a group of Elite Majors (wielding Plasma Rifles and Repeaters, possibly Concussion Rifles, as well as Energy Swords) backing the squads up.

    Jackals would be operating in groups, providing mobile cover for the other infantry while making shots with Needlers and Plasma pistols. Skirmishers would also be working as a high-speed distraction to make their enemy's lives that much more miserable. Posted behind the aforementioned Elite squads would be the sharpshooters, using weapons like the Needle Rifle, Carbine Rifle, Focus Rifle, etcetera (the Covenant has a lot of options for long-range infantry).

    Brute squads would be brought in while the engagement is occurring with more explosive and overall... Brutal weaponry. Brute shots, Spikers, Concussion Rifles, and the like while they ride on their very big, very spiky vehicles. Should they be brought down to a single troop, he'll ditch all weaponry and, for lack of a better term (okay, that's a lie, I just want to say this), Leeroy Jenkins the offending foes.

    Hunters would be brought in after the fight has shown either side has grown weaker to act as an efficient defense, or powerful offense. Due to their varying size, they could be a dozen feet or even several meters tall. With massive, full-body shields and plasma mortars or cannons attached to their arms, the Hunter colonies are very dangerous. Coupled with the fact that they are exactly that (a couple, generally recognized as bond-brothers), if one dies, the other will fight harder to preserve their memories of the lost.
    Let's see, in Warhammer 40, armies are organized into troop categories of Headquarters, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Weapons. For standard games an army can pick up to 2 HQ choices, 6 Troops and 3 of each other category.

    Platoons of Grunts lead by either Elites or Brutes would probably be the core troop choice, with options for skirmishing units of Jackals. I'm inclined to say that packs of Brutes are also available as a troop choice. I'm torn as to whether Elites should also be available as Troops, but I'm more inclined to say they should take up the slot which is their namesake (Elites).
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Platoons of Grunts lead by either Elites or Brutes would probably be the core troop choice, with options for skirmishing units of Jackals. I'm inclined to say that packs of Brutes are also available as a troop choice. I'm torn as to whether Elites should also be available as Troops, but I'm more inclined to say they should take up the slot which is their namesake (Elites).
    Skirmishers and Jackals are the same race, but not the same archetype. Jackals act as mobile cover/cannon fodder/suppression or sharpshooters while Skirmishers like to dash about and riddle their foes with a lot of plasma or needles.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Seeing as the Beam Carbine is in fact a carbine and not a full fledged rifle, I'm actually inclined to give it an 18" in range on par with the Tau Pulse Carbine. I am however torn since it does have a scope and a range seemingly comparable to the Battle Rifle.

    I'm also inclined to cut down the range of the Plasma 'Rifle' as well, seeing as how they're much more like submachine guns and can be wielded like pistols (definitely going to say they use the Pistol Grip rules, like Bolters can).

    Also, I think we're missing the point of the Needler. It seems to me it should have an Armor Penetration value of 5 rather than 4, but should ignore armor saves on a to wound roll of 6 (representing when you manage to stick enough Needles into someone for them to explode all at once). That way it's still more or less ineffectual against armor (as it seems to be) but has an out. Also, autoglances vehicles on 6.

    Definitely like those vehicle rules you churned out, and as for the Jackal Kig-Yar point defense gauntlets, I had something special in mind.

    They provide a 3+ Cover Save on any turn where the unit does does not both move and shoot. That is, any turn where they are stationary and firing, they get a 3+ cover save and or any turn where they are moving and don't shoot, they also get that save. Sound good?
    Bolters no longer have the pistol grip rules. And I think the Plasma Rifles range was less then the Carbine (which I think makes a pretty good 24) but more then the Plasma Pistol 18 is a good spot for it.

    Giving them rending? I don't think so. In a battlefield like 40k is supposed to represent dumping an entire clip into one target should be very hard to do, and would be more of a story thing like overcharging las-packs and using them as grenades. The always glancing a vehicle on a 6 is way to powerful as well. (By new rules three glances will always kill pretty much any tank, except really big ones like Land Raiders). They seem decently effective against armor and punch through easily enough for me to safely give them AP: 4. However I will give them a special rule of firing on Overwatch at normal BS due to their rapid fire and tracking nature.

    3+ cover save is insanely good by the new rules as it can only be gotten by things like snipers in bunkers. Ruins and forests are back to 5+. A 4+ save seems reasonable. Perhaps take it away if they are running but not otherwise. Or if they don't move they get a one time 5+ invulnerable save as well.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Bolters no longer have the pistol grip rules. And I think the Plasma Rifles range was less then the Carbine (which I think makes a pretty good 24) but more then the Plasma Pistol 18 is a good spot for it.

    Giving them rending? I don't think so. In a battlefield like 40k is supposed to represent dumping an entire clip into one target should be very hard to do, and would be more of a story thing like overcharging las-packs and using them as grenades. The always glancing a vehicle on a 6 is way to powerful as well. (By new rules three glances will always kill pretty much any tank, except really big ones like Land Raiders). They seem decently effective against armor and punch through easily enough for me to safely give them AP: 4. However I will give them a special rule of firing on Overwatch at normal BS due to their rapid fire and tracking nature.

    3+ cover save is insanely good by the new rules as it can only be gotten by things like snipers in bunkers. Ruins and forests are back to 5+. A 4+ save seems reasonable. Perhaps take it away if they are running but not otherwise. Or if they don't move they get a one time 5+ invulnerable save as well.
    Thanks for the update, and yeah saying they have a 4+ cover save unless they run (I forgot about the new Running rules) makes sense. I guess I just have trouble picturing a Needler punching through Carapace armor, but given that it is using a form of flechette ammunition, I suppose that makes sense. Also, it occurs to me that if the Covenant's baseline rifle is only a 12" or 18" range, they are severely handicapped XD

    Okay, we'll use those rules for the basic weapons then, with the assumption that Plasma Pistols just use the pistols rule (Maybe they have a special rule where they can be fired as a heavy weapon to represent the charged shot?)

    As for army organization, this is what I have so far:
    HQ:
    Sangheili Zealot; Brute Chieftain; Prophet (any of which can be accompanied by an Honor Guard)

    Elites:
    Sangheili Cadre (Major leading group of Minors); Spec Ops Unit (Elites and Grunts with active camouflage); Kig-Yar Snipers

    Troops:
    Unggoy Lance (lead by Elite Minor, with options for Needlers and Fuel Rod launchers); Kig-Yar Jackal Troupe (with either Carbines or Shields and Pistols/Needlers; Brute Pack

    Fast Attack:
    Drone Swarm; Ghosts; Wraiths; Kig-Yar Skirmishers; Brute Chopper Gang; Prowler

    Heavy Support:
    Wraith; Hunters; Grunt Heavy Weapons Teams; Locust


    Was thinking that Prowlers and Shadows could be integrated as Troop Transports, seeing as that seems to be their primary purpose.

    Also, I was thinking for the Elites with shield generators, would that make their 4+ armor save Invulnerable? That is the standard procedure for representing energy shields yes? Or else, granting a separate invulnerable save.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-17 at 01:49 AM.
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    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Where is this "Great Big List of Sci-Fi Races That Can Beat Each Other"?
    I tried to google it and got nothing.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    As for army organization, this is what I have so far:
    HQ:
    Sangheili Zealot; Brute Chieftain; Prophet (any of which can be accompanied by an Honor Guard)

    Elites:
    Sangheili Cadre (Major leading group of Minors); Spec Ops Unit (Elites and Grunts with active camouflage); Kig-Yar Snipers

    Troops:
    Unggoy Lance (lead by Elite Minor, with options for Needlers and Fuel Rod launchers); Kig-Yar Jackal Troupe (with either Carbines or Shields and Pistols/Needlers; Brute Pack

    Fast Attack:
    Drone Swarm; Ghosts; Wraiths; Kig-Yar Skirmishers

    Heavy Support:
    Wraith; Hunters; Grunt Heavy Weapons Teams

    I think that could use some fleshing out, don't you? What other Covenant units do we see in what roles?

    Also, I was thinking for the Elites with shield generators, would that make their 4+ armor save Invulnerable? That is the standard procedure for representing energy shields yes? Or else, granting a separate invulnerable save.
    Lesse... The Chieftain could also fill Heavy Support, being a massive damage sponge (though not as much as the Hunters). Hunters are always in multiples of two when in combat. Also, Scarabs under the really nasty artillery. They're absolutely enormous.

    Also, here's a little chart for the races to UNSC nicknames, as you seem to be confusing Kig-Yar's multiple nicknames:

    San 'Shyuum - Prophets
    Sangheili - Elites
    Jiralhanae - Brutes
    Unggoy - Grunts
    Kig-Yar - Jackals (shield and sniper), Skirmishers
    Yanme'e - Drones
    Mgalekgolo (a colony of Lekgolo eels) - Hunters
    Huragok - Engineer

    You can refer to each race's rank and file for more information on what ranks of what species would operate in combat situations. The Covenant appear to be a weak force in comparison to the Imperium. Despite this, they have shock tactics, the advantage of diverse tactics from species to species, and their trump cards (Zealots, Chieftains, Scarabs, Hunters) are some of the nastiest things this side of the (fictional) galaxy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Where is this "Great Big List of Sci-Fi Races That Can Beat Each Other"?
    I tried to google it and got nothing.
    This?

    Also an interesting variable: considering the Covenant is 38,000 years younger than the Imperium, let's consider that the Covenant never fell. Instead, they only grew, accepting new races, indoctrinating new technology into their existence, and growing with more Forerunner technology. The Sangheili would rebel, but without the numbers or support the Covenant had, would fall. Putting this Covenant against the Imperium, how do you think they would fare?

    My guess is that the Imperium would be steamrolled faster than you can say "orkorkorkorkorkorkokorkorkork".
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-17 at 01:10 AM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Covenant Wargear

    Weaponry:
    Plasma Rifle-
    Range 18" Str 3 AP - Assault 2
    Plasma Pistol-
    Range 12" Str 3 AP - Pistol (Can be fired at Strength 5 AP 3 Heavy 1)
    Needler-
    Range 12" Str 4 AP 4 Assault 2
    Carbine-
    Range 24" Str 3 AP - Assault 1
    Beam Rifle-
    Range 36" Str X AP 4 Heavy 1 (Always wounds on a 4+)
    Brute Shot-
    Range 24" Str 6 AP 4 Assault 1
    Fuel Rod Gun-
    Range 36" Str 7 AP 3 Heavy 2
    Plasma Cannon-
    Range 24" Str 6 AP 4 Heavy 3
    Assault Cannon-
    Range 36" Str 8 AP 2 Heav 1 Blast

    Beam Sword- Power Weapon (ignore armor saves)
    Gravity Hammer- Doubles Strenth, two-handed, ignores armor saves

    Defensive:
    Yig-Kar Zero point Shield Gauntlet- Any turn in which a unit equipped with these does not run, it enjoys a 4+ cover save.

    Regenerative Shield Generators-
    Allow re-roll of armor saves.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-17 at 01:29 AM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Lesse... The Chieftain could also fill Heavy Support, being a massive damage sponge (though not as much as the Hunters). Hunters are always in multiples of two when in combat. Also, Scarabs under the really nasty artillery. They're absolutely enormous.
    Hmmm . . . maybe an option in heavy support for armored Brutes, yeah.

    Scarabs however are going to be left off the main army list for the same reason that Baneblades and other super-heavy vehicles are left off the standard Imperial army lists.

    Also, here's a little chart for the races to UNSC nicknames, as you seem to be confusing Kig-Yar's multiple nicknames:

    San 'Shyuum - Prophets
    Sangheili - Elites
    Jiralhanae - Brutes
    Unggoy - Grunts
    Kig-Yar - Jackals (shield and sniper), Skirmishers
    Yanme'e - Drones
    Mgalekgolo (a colony of Lekgolo eels) - Hunters
    Huragok - Engineer
    Well, they're both already listed as Kig-Yar, but what are the Skirmishers generally armed with? Also, would they have better statistics than the normal Kig-Yar?

    You can refer to each race's rank and file for more information on what ranks of what species would operate in combat situations. The Covenant appear to be a weak force in comparison to the Imperium. Despite this, they have shock tactics, the advantage of diverse tactics from species to species, and their trump cards (Zealots, Chieftains, Scarabs, Hunters) are some of the nastiest things this side of the (fictional) galaxy.
    Yeah, I've been there and it hasn't really been helpful in breaking down their army organization. Not the kind of thing I think they put a lot of thought into. Also, believe me when I say that the Imperium employs a diverse range of tactics as well, considering their are billions of worlds and hundreds of thousands of various tactical leaders. Cadian Shock Troops, the Armageddon Steel Legion, Armored Companies, Drop Regiments, Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Artillery Regiments, Heavy Infantry Regiments . . . they literally run the gamut in deployment options and tactics. Much more flexible than the UNSC Marines ever demonstrated an ability to be.

    This?

    Also an interesting variable: considering the Covenant is 38,000 years younger than the Imperium, let's consider that the Covenant never fell. Instead, they only grew, accepting new races, indoctrinating new technology into their existence, and growing with more Forerunner technology. The Sangheili would rebel, but without the numbers or support the Covenant had, would fall. Putting this Covenant against the Imperium, how do you think they would fare?

    My guess is that the Imperium would be steamrolled faster than you can say "orkorkorkorkorkorkokorkorkork".
    Well, incorporating new races is a huge variable since those could wind up being the salvation or the downfall, but seeing as the inevitable goal is still to activate the Halo rings, I think it's more or less a moot point.

    Assuming they just had an empire comparable in size to the Imperium, I'm still not sure I'd be willing to give it to them, based on what I've seen of their troops and technology thus far.
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    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Thanks for the update, and yeah saying they have a 4+ cover save unless they run (I forgot about the new Running rules) makes sense. I guess I just have trouble picturing a Needler punching through Carapace armor, but given that it is using a form of flechette ammunition, I suppose that makes sense. Also, it occurs to me that if the Covenant's baseline rifle is only a 12" or 18" range, they are severely handicapped XD

    Okay, we'll use those rules for the basic weapons then, with the assumption that Plasma Pistols just use the pistols rule (Maybe they have a special rule where they can be fired as a heavy weapon to represent the charged shot?)

    As for army organization, this is what I have so far:
    HQ:
    Sangheili Zealot; Brute Chieftain; Prophet (any of which can be accompanied by an Honor Guard)

    Elites:
    Sangheili Cadre (Major leading group of Minors); Spec Ops Unit (Elites and Grunts with active camouflage); Kig-Yar Snipers

    Troops:
    Unggoy Lance (lead by Elite Minor, with options for Needlers and Fuel Rod launchers); Kig-Yar Jackal Troupe (with either Carbines or Shields and Pistols/Needlers; Brute Pack

    Fast Attack:
    Drone Swarm; Ghosts; Wraiths; Kig-Yar Skirmishers; Brute Chopper Gang

    Heavy Support:
    Wraith; Hunters; Grunt Heavy Weapons Teams


    Was thinking that Prowlers and Shadows could be integrated as Troop Transports, seeing as that seems to be their primary purpose.

    Also, I was thinking for the Elites with shield generators, would that make their 4+ armor save Invulnerable? That is the standard procedure for representing energy shields yes? Or else, granting a separate invulnerable save.
    Looks good. What were the Flyers for Covenant again? Or did they only have Banshees?

    Invulnerable saves is more of a question of durability. Most energy shields in the 40k universe can take an insane amount of punishment that would otherwise leave them as vapor. Or are a matter of just being that fast at getting out of the way. Sometimes you can get an Invulnerable save out of pure skill. Anyways the point is that it's an all or nothing that works on pretty much anything.

    The energy shields seen by the Elites act as basic armor really. Perhaps let them reroll one armor/cover save per turn instead.

    @Triscuitable: Chieften is HQ. Trust me Heavy Support isn't about damage soaking ability as much as type of weapon used/role on the battlefield. Chieftens are leaders so they should be in HQ. Likely as an independent character.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Most direct port of the Needler into WH40k would probably the Quill Blaster from the RPG. 50m range, S/-/6 Rate of Fire, 1d10 damage, 2 penetration and has the tearing and overheats quality.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Well, they're both already listed as Kig-Yar, but what are the Skirmishers generally armed with? Also, would they have better statistics than the normal Kig-Yar?
    They're much faster, and have small energy shields on either elbow, covering the arms. They wield plasma pistols or needlers. They're about the same in terms of durability, but the lack of a massive energy shield covering their front makes them a bit squishier. The lack of it also means they're not holding a shield made of stabilized plasma, and thus, they can move a lot faster.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Assuming they just had an empire comparable in size to the Imperium, I'm still not sure I'd be willing to give it to them, based on what I've seen of their troops and technology thus far.
    Their empire consists of the entire populations of the above races. The Engineers put overshields on their allies, making them nigh-invulnerable as well. The Engineers themselves aren't technically Covenant, either. They're artificially created beings of flesh and machine made by the Forerunner. Made by their parents, they have names like Prone to Drift and Lighter than Some, based on faults of their construction. The Covenant just happened to run into them and enslave them while on a Halo array.

    What makes them so important is the fact that they can work with any squad (though they're not as inclined to be in a squad of weak soldiers), and use their Forerunner-tech to improve survivability. They don't use Covenant machinery or reverse-engineered Forerunner machinations. Rather, they continue to improve over time the technology that is far superior to the Covenant's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Looks good. What were the Flyers for Covenant again? Or did they only have Banshees?
    Oh right, vehicles. The Covenant has a lot more than you'd think. As for flying vehicles.

    • Banshee (space and air variants)
    • Seraph
    • Spirit
    • Vampire
    • Phantom
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-17 at 01:40 AM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Think I've got the vehicles just about covered now with the addition of the Prowler as another Fast Attack option, and the Locust under Heavy Support. Rather than a building destroyer, it'll likely function as a sort of Anti-Tank walker.

    The remaining vehicles are really just variations on the Wraith Chassi, so they'll be represented by different configurations of armaments and whatnot for the Wraith.
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    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Covenant Wargear

    Weaponry:
    Plasma Rifle-
    Range 18" Str 3 AP - Assault 2
    Plasma Pistol-
    Range 12" Str 3 AP - Pistol (Can be fired at Strength 5 AP 3 Heavy 1)
    Needler-
    Range 12" Str 4 AP 4 Assault 2
    Carbine-
    Range 24" Str 3 AP - Assault 1
    Beam Rifle-
    Range 36" Str X AP 4 Heavy 1 (Always wounds on a 4+)
    Brute Shot-
    Range 24" Str 6 AP 4 Assault 1
    Fuel Rod Gun-
    Range 36" Str 7 AP 3 Heavy 2
    Plasma Cannon-
    Range 24" Str 6 AP 4 Heavy 3
    Assault Cannon-
    Range 36" Str 8 AP 2 Heav 1 Blast

    Beam Sword- Power Weapon (ignore armor saves)
    Gravity Hammer- Doubles Strenth, two-handed, ignores armor saves

    Defensive:
    Yig-Kar Zero point Shield Gauntlet- Any turn in which a unit equipped with these does not run, it enjoys a 4+ cover save.

    Regenerative Shield Generators-
    Allow re-roll of armor saves.
    Beam rifle should allow Heavy 2(Gets hot). And should probably be rending too, which I think is the standard for snipers now.
    Needler I would say is a S2 AP- Assault 2 rending weapon. The way a needler works does act as if it is rending. Very little damage for each individual needle, but a lot of them will suddenly start doing heavy damage.
    I'd possibly up the Fuel rod to a S8, and drop its AP to 4. From a game perspective, it is a covenant tank buster. S7 doesn't really work as the mainstay tank buster.
    Brute shot looks a little too powerful maybe, I'd drop it S5AP5.
    Plasma pistol overcharge would be a little insane for 40k as a basic weapon that almost all troops in an army list can use.

    I'd also add as wargear "Overshield", which gives a 4+ invulnerable save for a turn.
    Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-09-17 at 08:16 AM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Aren't force shields usually represented as Invulnerable shaves in 40k? Like the Iron Halo, Crozium Arcanum and Refractor Shield?

    Perhaps they could work like a weaker version of the DE force shield, that stops working once it fails once.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Aren't force shields usually represented as Invulnerable shaves in 40k? Like the Iron Halo, Crozium Arcanum and Refractor Shield?

    Perhaps they could work like a weaker version of the DE force shield, that stops working once it fails once.
    Generally speaking, yes they do, but we thought that didn't really capture how they seem to function in Halo, especially since they are so much easier to overwhelm with explosives or overwhelming firepower. I mean, Beamswords aren't really a defense against them, yeah?
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

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