The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[The Glyphstone]

If we're a bit more generous with their weaponry, the Plasma Rifle could be boosted up a bit - Tau pulse rifles fire plasma charges, so maybe a Str 3 AP 6, with an optional Str 5 AP 4 or Str 4 AP 5 Gets Hot fire setting.

If Grunts are low-leadership without an Elite or Brute with them, they need an option to either take an Elite/Brute squad leader, and/or (my preference) have a unit-specific special rule that lets them borrow the leadership of any Elite or Brute unit within, say, 6". I'd like to see this sort of thing imitated across the army - individual Covenant units aren't that impressive, but each of them has a special rule interacting with one or two other Covenant unit types to their benefit; have a sufficiently diversified army, and you're much more powerful than you would be otherwise, you get the Covenant that actually did steamroll the USNC forces. It's a niche I can't think of any 40K army that currently claims - the closest you get is Eldar with their myriad hyper-specialized Aspect Warriors.



As for the Space Marines thing...I think they would freak a bit when they first encountered an Astartes assault, though since Chief himself is more like a Space Marine special character, they'd calm down a bit - still a whole army of 'Lesser Demons', but not quite as terrifying by comparison.

Do even modern sniper rifles tear men's limbs off with a clip? I don't think so.

Fan...modern .50 sniper rifles can tear off limbs with single bullets. Those hits leave big holes.*


*disclaimer: Effects of .50 bullets not guaranteed. Offer void in some areas. Consult your local actual weapons expert for details.

[Fan]

The Chief doesn't have feats to compare to a generic tactical squad.

His highest durability feat is taking a fall from orbit, and even that was reliant on something specifically designed to nullify falling impacts (The Hydrostatic gel pressurized to the point where it locked Servo motors in the Mjolnir.)

Meanwhile a generic marine can tank a mortar, and has regeneration on a tier that the Chief only even comes close to thanks to his recharging energy shields, and a special character has access to an Iron Halo which adds that to them anyways.

Tau Plasma Rifles are on a completely different scale as well than Covenant weapons, Plasma rifles having vaporized adamantine in the initial Tau Campaign, which as MUCH higher durability than anything the Haloverse has available to it barring Forerunner technology, and Covenant Plasma weapons don't even make regular steel glow white hot.

You're attributing power to things simply because they say they use plasma, the energy output isn't even vaugely on the same level.

Glyphstone, I've treated gunshot wounds. I know how these things work. I've done research as to how field medics handle people who've been hit by these things, and while yes it does tear apart a limb, it does not carry it off, and vaporize it. I work at a free clinic, we get all the gang members coming in because they don't like questions asked and they know we don't get paid enough, and aren't legally required to.

That is simply not how these bullets work. I have pics from my medical journal of victims, and their injuries if you want them. The limbs are destroyed for all intents and purposes, but they are not vaporized, or removed. They do not tear off limbs, they shatter bone, tear apart flesh, and cause significant damage to the surrounding area. The only way you're getting a limb off with one of those is by a direct hit to a joint, and even then it's more likely that the joint will be destroyed and it'll hang on like a useless, dead, tube of meat.

[ChaosLord29]

If we're a bit more generous with their weaponry, the Plasma Rifle could be boosted up a bit - Tau pulse rifles fire plasma charges, so maybe a Str 3 AP 6, with an optional Str 5 AP 4 or Str 4 AP 5 Gets Hot fire setting.

If Grunts are low-leadership without an Elite or Brute with them, they need an option to either take an Elite/Brute squad leader, and/or (my preference) have a unit-specific special rule that lets them borrow the leadership of any Elite or Brute unit within, say, 6". I'd like to see this sort of thing imitated across the army - individual Covenant units aren't that impressive, but each of them has a special rule interacting with one or two other Covenant unit types to their benefit; have a sufficiently diversified army, and you're much more powerful than you would be otherwise, you get the Covenant that actually did steamroll the USNC forces. It's a niche I can't think of any 40K army that currently claims - the closest you get is Eldar with their myriad hyper-specialized Aspect Warriors.



As for the Space Marines thing...I think they would freak a bit when they first encountered an Astartes assault, though since Chief himself is more like a Space Marine special character, they'd calm down a bit - still a whole army of 'Lesser Demons', but not quite as terrifying by comparison.


Fan...modern .50 sniper rifles can tear off limbs with single bullets. Those hits leave big holes.*


*disclaimer: Effects of .50 bullets not guaranteed. Offer void in some areas. Consult your local actual weapons expert for details.

You know I rather like that idea. Sort of like if the Eldar had Hivemind bonuses. Elites make subordinate units more steady and cool under fire, Brutes make them more vehement and 'motivated'. Open to other ideas while I add that into the Army Special Rules.

[An Enemy Spy]

Enemy Spy! You know Warhammer right? What would we have to change to make the Covenant a balanced faction against an Imperial Guard or Space Marine force?

I know I haven't added point values yet, but let's be kind and assume Grunts and Kig-Yar are comparable in price to the average Tyranid 'gaunt (Even though they're fielded in fantastically fewer numbers) and that Brutes and Elites are comparable in price to Eldar Aspect Warriors (The infantry, like Dire Avengers and Howling Banshees), even though they're statted out like Space Marines.

I have played Warhammer once. I was the Tau and I won. Other than that, everything I know comes from Dawn of War, reading backstory stuff online, and talking to my friend who is a big Warhammer fan.

I don't know much about rules, but to make the Covies effective, they would have to be an IG or 'nids type of army with lots and lots of cheap expendable units(Unggoy and Kig-Yar) with Sangheili and Jiralhanae as the heavy shock troops and commanders. Kig-Yar also make for excellent long range infantry, similar to Tau warriors. Mglekgolo make excellent anti-armor troops that are all but immune to most small arms and Yanme'e would be a good scout unit. As far as vehicles are concerned, Wraiths could be used as long range armor with Huragok in back to constantly repair them. Banshees would use hit and run tactics while Vampires are used for air superiority. If things get really bad, they can fall back on an orbital bombardment(can you do that in 40k?) and the Scarab is a powerful Titan-like unit.

As far as stats go, I'm basically clueless on how that works.

[Fan]

I have played Warhammer once. I was the Tau and I won. Other than that, everything I know comes from Dawn of War, reading backstory stuff online, and talking to my friend who is a big Warhammer fan.

I don't know much about rules, but to make the Covies effective, they would have to be an IG or 'nids type of army with lots and lots of cheap expendable units(Unggoy and Kig-Yar) with Sangheili and Jiralhanae as the heavy shock troops and commanders. Kig-Yar also make for excellent long range infantry, similar to Tau warriors. Mglekgolo make excellent anti-armor troops that are all but immune to most small arms and Yanme'e would be a good scout unit. As far as vehicles are concerned, Wraiths could be used as long range armor with Huragok in back to constantly repair them. Banshees would use hit and run tactics while Vampires are used for air superiority. If things get really bad, they can fall back on an orbital bombardment(can you do that in 40k?) and the Scarab is a powerful Titan-like unit.

As far as stats go, I'm basically clueless on how that works.

The laser weaponry doesn't compare to a Titan's weaponry. Capping out at Large Building Level destruction.

It'd be more like a baneblade than anything else, not even close to the Stormsword Variant that has the same volcano cannon that punches holes in mountains.

[The Glyphstone]

If you live in an area where gangs fight with .50 caliber rifles...

Big brass ones, dude.

You know I rather like that idea. Sort of like if the Eldar had Hivemind bonuses. Elites make subordinate units more steady and cool under fire, Brutes make them more vehement and 'motivated'. Open to other ideas while I add that into the Army Special Rules.

Have the Grunts give something back as well, to keep the interconnected ties. Say, giving an improved cover save if the enemy shoots through a Grunt squad at a unit of Brutes or Elites.

We've accepted that the Covenant will definitely lose to the Imperium in small-scale and large-scale battle, though they have the options to do some severe infrastructure damage in the latter. If we give them a 100%-faithful translation, they won't be able to stand up to any existing 40K list, but if the Space Marines can be powered down to be (comparatively) balanced on tabletop versus fluff (re. Movie Marines), there's no reason we can't power the Covenant up a bit...not necessarily by just giving them higher bonuses and stats, but figuring out how to make a list that makes sense, feels like playing the Covenant while letting them be at least somewhat competitive.

[Triscuitable]

Fan...modern .50 sniper rifles can tear off limbs with single bullets. Those hits leave big holes.*


*disclaimer: Effects of .50 bullets not guaranteed. Offer void in some areas. Consult your local actual weapons expert for details.

They're about the size of your middle finger. In essence, it's about as offensive as shooting your middle finger at someone: nobody needs a .50 caliber unless they're trying to shoot a tank, or someone more than a few thousand meters away.

Glyphstone, I've treated gunshot wounds. I know how these things work. I've done research as to how field medics handle people who've been hit by these things, and while yes it does tear apart a limb, it does not carry it off, and vaporize it. I work at a free clinic, we get all the gang members coming in because they don't like questions asked and they know we don't get paid enough, and aren't legally required to.

That is simply not how these bullets work. I have pics from my medical journal of victims, and their injuries if you want them. The limbs are destroyed for all intents and purposes, but they are not vaporized, or removed. They do not tear off limbs, they shatter bone, tear apart flesh, and cause significant damage to the surrounding area. The only way you're getting a limb off with one of those is by a direct hit to a joint, and even then it's more likely that the joint will be destroyed and it'll hang on like a useless, dead, tube of meat.

So you've treated them, but not used them? Because either one of two things is going on here: you're mistaking the caliber (a .50 to the waist has been known to bisect a human being), or the local gangsters can't aim. Also, a .50 cal rifle can be heard from a few miles away: those suckers are loud.

If you live in an area where gangs fight with .50 caliber rifles...

Big brass ones, dude.

Those must be some well-funded gangs. A single .50 costs about as much as a Dragon's Breath 12-gauge round ($5). The guns themselves cost thousands.

[Misery Esquire]

Those must be some well-funded gangs. A single .50 costs about as much as a Dragon's Breath 12-gauge round ($5). The guns themselves cost thousands.

I think he means .50's as in the caliber of weapon, not the .50 Barett Rifle or .50 AWP. There are a variety of non-sniper .50's.

(Like the vastly sensationalized Desert Eagle.)

>> Actually, he doesn't say .50 in the gunshot wound part at all, so it may be extrapolation. Anyway, there's no need to aggravate the situation.

[Fan]

They're about the size of your middle finger. In essence, it's about as offensive as shooting your middle finger at someone: nobody needs a .50 caliber unless they're trying to shoot a tank, or someone more than a few thousand meters away.




So you've treated them, but not used them? Because either one of two things is going on here: you're mistaking the caliber (a .50 to the waist has been known to bisect a human being), or the local gangsters can't aim. Also, a .50 cal rifle can be heard from a few miles away: those suckers are loud.



Those must be some well-funded gangs. A single .50 costs about as much as a Dragon's Breath 12-gauge round ($5). The guns themselves cost thousands.

I think you completely misread what I've said.

I've treated regular gunshots (mostly 9 millimeters, cheap Chinese stuff.), and I work at a clinic just outside Charlotte.

I've done theroetical work on dummies that have been hit by these things, and have seen the damage conveyed on a ballistics gel dummy when they were trying to convey to us how serious gunshot wounds were.

I've ALSO gone over the post operation reports of victims of these shots, and none of them were sawed in half.

I think people vastly overrate modern weaponry, it's deadly, it's efficient, and overpenetration is currently an actual problem, but it's far from the degree to where a single round tears off limbs.

Most of the reports where I HAVE seen victims bisected (This being a scenario they taught us in case we were to ever have to treat combat wounds. Emergency Med class.), have been from multiple impacts of multiple rounds.

I again, have actual pictures from my medical journal I can post regarding people shot in the stomach with these rounds, in the head with these rounds, and with the mangled remains of an arm after being hit with one of these rounds.

It very rarely bisects, and if it does, it's due to external circumstances, or multiple shots fired.

[Triscuitable]

When you said .50, you should have specified that it was a 12.7mm (the pistol variant of a .50) instead of saying .50. When people read .50, they assume .50 BMG, which has that kind of destructive power. Maybe not in one shot from an LMG, but if the gun were built to fire a single .50 over an extreme distance (like the previously mentioned AWP or Barrett M99), then it'd carry the velocity to rip someone in half. It all depends on where the bullet lands in the end, of course.

[ChaosLord29]

When you said .50, you should have specified that it was a 12.7mm (the pistol variant of a .50) instead of saying .50. When people read .50, they assume .50 BMG, which has that kind of destructive power. Maybe not in one shot from an LMG, but if the gun were built to fire a single .50 over an extreme distance (like the previously mentioned AWP or Barrett M99), then it'd carry the velocity to rip someone in half. It all depends on where the bullet lands in the end, of course.

Hey, how about you guys take this to the real life weapons and whatnot discussion thread XD?

Or you know, get a room and quit arguing about who implied what when they used the specific phrase which generally applies to whatever.

The point is, I think we've got something in the way of a pretty objective measure of what it would take for Covenant ground forces to defeat Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the 40k universe: Overwhelming Numbers (that they don't have) and a lot of luck (which they can't count on).

I'll add the special rules for the Effect that higher ranking Covenant have on lower ranking Covenant and do my best to assign point values to everything, but as it stands I still think the only way to balance any fight between Covenant ground forces and Imperial Guardsman is for the Covenant to outnumber them at least two to one (Space Marines, maybe 5 to 1).

Any chance someone more familiar with the Battlefleet Gothic rules would like to give a go at a mock up of Covenant Space forces? It would be really cool to simulate a fleet like the one at the Battle of Reach.

[Triscuitable]

I was just thinking, what about Reapers (of Mass Effect) versus the Imperium? As in, just the Imperium. Let's theorize every other race (Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, etc.) has been wiped out by Reaper forces. What happens then?

I'll make a thread for that later.

[ChaosLord29]

I was just thinking, what about Reapers (of Mass Effect) versus the Imperium? As in, just the Imperium. Let's theorize every other race (Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, etc.) has been wiped out by Reaper forces. What happens then?

I'll make a thread for that later.

Short of intervention by the Emperor himself and second coming of Sanguinious, I'm going to say offhand that's a big win for the Reapers. I mean, talk about a series that combines well thought out science fiction and terrifying scale.

Not to mention that if we're assuming the Reapers have consumed the other factions, then they should have Reaperized Eldar, Orks, Tyranids and Tau at their disposal, which would make for quite a nasty bunch.

Although, the same way Earth and the rest of the Galaxy more or less count on Shepherd to save the day, I don't think it's worth totally ruling out some lone champion of the Emperor and his rag tag team of fellows striking out on a divinely ordained quest to get whatever Macguffin the 40k universe needs to beat the Reapers. Though seeing as it's 40k, that rag tag team probably consists of Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt, Inquisitor Czevak, Eldrad Ulthuan, Commander 'Shadowsun' O'Shaserra, Aun'shi, Zso Sahaal, and some Ork Warboss or another . . .

I bet the Talismans of Vaul could manage it, given how much the Reapers and the Necron more or less fulfill the same roll in Genre. I mean, the Reapers are basically just the fusion of the Tyranids (Extragalactic invaders who consume all organic life into their path and pervert it to better serve the swarm) and the Necrons (Formerly organic life forms who sold their souls to become immortal machine gods in service to other soulless gods).

[Fan]

Hahaha..

No.

Imperium of Man shields and weaponries are designed to tank gigaton yields, and throw them out.

To quote the "Issac Newton" line

Gunnery Chief: This, recruits, is a 20-kilo ferrous slug. Feel the weight. Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one to 1.3 percent of light speed. It impacts with the force of a 38-kiloton bomb. That is three times the yield of the city-buster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth. That means Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space. Now! Serviceman Burnside! What is Newton’s first law?

They operate at literally one TEN THOUSANDTH of the scale, even assuming reapers are 10 times as powerful as the baseline ship, and can tank 100 times as much damage they are still 1000 times weaker in offense, and 100 times weaker in defense.

This is a factor of rape that is unimaginable.

[The_Final_Stand]

I think we did that one in the legendary 40k/SW/ST threads. Heck, I think I may have been the one to bring that up!

We still came to the conclusion that the Imperium wins.

[shadow_archmagi]

Sovereign is two kilometers long. That makes him a Frigate by imperial standards.

[Parra]

I think we did that one in the legendary 40k/SW/ST threads. Heck, I think I may have been the one to bring that up!

ssssh dont mention those threads, they might hear you and come back again

[Selrahc]

but if the Space Marines can be powered down to be (comparatively) balanced on tabletop versus fluff (re. Movie Marines),

The idea that "Movie Marines" are the actual strength of a Marine is a little ridiculous. The profile was written as a parody of action heroes, and includes things like frag grenades that annihilate tanks, power chainswords and stunt doubles to tank wounds.

[The Glyphstone]

The idea that "Movie Marines" are the actual strength of a Marine is a little ridiculous. The profile was written as a parody of action heroes, and includes things like frag grenades that annihilate tanks, power chainswords and stunt doubles to tank wounds.

The states premise was representing Marines as they are in the fluff and/or propaganda. Sure, the stunt doubles were a little much, but I don't think anyone can deny that fluff and tabletop stats often have a wide gulf between them.

[ChaosLord29]

The states premise was representing Marines as they are in the fluff and/or propaganda. Sure, the stunt doubles were a little much, but I don't think anyone can deny that fluff and tabletop stats often have a wide gulf between them.

For good reason. Game mechanics are designed to create a nominally balanced system in which any given player stands a decent chance of winning through a combination of luck and skill. The stats of the army are more or less flavor (or a representation in game terms of the flavor of the army itself).

Fluff material on the other hand is written to create a sense of drama and convey a particular conflict and plot so as to entertain and excite. Not to say that the fames aren't entertaining or exciting jusy that it's accomplished theough the tension of the 'game' rather than artistic license.

[Triscuitable]

This is a factor of rape that is unimaginable.

Let's not use this word to describe a laser beam, okay?

[Fan]

The states premise was representing Marines as they are in the fluff and/or propaganda. Sure, the stunt doubles were a little much, but I don't think anyone can deny that fluff and tabletop stats often have a wide gulf between them.

Not really, the marines if anything seem more fragile in fluff. In fluff a marine usually gets hit pretty hard by a plasma cannon, or flamer. But in tabletop? Good luck getting your bog standard flamer to do anything in 1 shot to a squad of tacticals.

The numbers given for T, WS, and BS all have large gulfs representing one number, and the next.

I field an army of blood angels, or Grey Knights myself, and I can solidly say that I've used a power fist (on a lucky series of rolls) to punch a hole in a Lemann Russ, that my marines cover more ground (as a tactical squad) than a squad of Imperial Guard does in a turn, and that bolters when they hit digest a good number of Imperial Guardsmen.

Also, tabletop numbers can be extrapolated to mean other things to different people, and due to the canonical HUGE gap between numbers one guy can have a Toughness of 4, and another guy have a toughness of 4 but one of them could be vastly tougher than the other, or the other could have their toughness attributed to their armor, or their psychic forcefield (Which would be represented by an invulnerability save, but I digress.), rather than how tough they themselves actually are.

Also, a lot of my info comes from the Ultramarines Omnibuses, which as I can confirm by looking at the cover are produced by Games Workshop.

[GloatingSwine]

Short of intervention by the Emperor himself and second coming of Sanguinious, I'm going to say offhand that's a big win for the Reapers. I mean, talk about a series that combines well thought out science fiction and terrifying scale.

Man, the Reapers would take one look at the various factions vying for the universe in 40k and then high tail it back to dark space crying for their mummies.

And then they'd be cracked open like any other shellfish by Tyranids, who are far bigger, scarier, and more numerous than them, and would love to have all that juicy biomatter they keep inside.

[MLai]

I has question: What sci-fi universe (besides Culture and Gurenn) actually operate on the military scale of W40K? I skimmed thru the old W40K vs SW thread, and I think the Empire would eventually lose.

How about those nasty dark-&-spiky alien ships from Babylon 5? Does that civilization carry enough firepower? The protags were pretty afraid of it.

[Fan]

Celestials from Marvel.

Thanos's race from Marvel.

The Kyrptonians pre Brianiac.

Babylon 5 operates in the Kilo - Megaton range, and aren't a threat on any measurable scale.

The Downstreamers.

King Tenchi from Tenchi Muyo! beats them all aside from maybe all the Big 4 as 1.

The Forerunners or the Precursors from Halo if their ability to produce and use the Halo Rings could be extrapolated to include a way to preserve themselves.

The Protoss pre their anti militarization is speculated to have weapon output that shames everything else in the game. With planet cracker lasers having been standard ship equipment going by some books.

The Skrulls from Marvel.

The Kree from Marvel.

The Inhumans from Marvel would take it in a sweep. (See: War of Kings. Black Bolt screams and rips a hole in the universe 13.42 parsecs wide or 43.7711208 light years across.)

There are plenty of settings that take them in a sweep, they're just on that edge where it's either a stomp one way or another with very few people (Star Wars, Star Trek.) balancing there with them.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I has question: What sci-fi universe (besides Culture and Gurenn) actually operate on the military scale of W40K? I skimmed thru the old W40K vs SW thread, and I think the Empire would eventually lose.

Off the top of my head I'd say "none" but I'll mean it completely differently the an answer drawn from some of its partisan fandom metamagicked Quicken Maximized Empowered 40k.

Galactic empires are not nessecarily the most common things. And well if they aren't the trope namer for GRIMDARK they would function better. Also 40k has pretty terrible FTL capability in more ways then one.

I personally feel that many, nay even most, sci-fi empires/militaries on a per capita average basis would have less trouble with the Imperium then say... the modern US Armed Forces.

However just because lets say Heinlein's Cap Troopers (the original space marines!) could shred an IG division his Earth military has the scale to actually overwhelm the Imperium.

Anyways I'm sure there are plenty out there with either the scale or the tech, but you start to go a few tiers down in recognition and popularity. Like dragging out the original Lensman Arms Race that I understand got into swinging planets around as weapons.

[Misery Esquire]

I has question: What sci-fi universe (besides Culture and Gurenn) actually operate on the military scale of W40K? I skimmed thru the old W40K vs SW thread, and I think the Empire would eventually lose.

How about those nasty dark-&-spiky alien ships from Babylon 5? Does that civilization carry enough firepower? The protags were pretty afraid of it.

The Culture (And The Culture's opponents)
The Timelords/Daleks Offscreen power, as they get all kinds of power hype, but don't really show much on screen.*
Star Trek's Q and other entities like them
Ender's Game Government-thing, if only because the Doctor MD is a friggin' ridiculous weapon, though they probably wouldn't survive the reprisal attacks.
Boarderlands', if they have an actual Space Navy using the technology they use on the ground, but upscaled, could be bloody terrifying.
I would say the Ori, but a lot of StarGate is plot-powered Ancient stuff, leaving thier actual power questionable.

...And I'm sure there's other 4X Space Games where the empires become ridiculously powerful and throw black holes around, but they don't really have a set fluff, so I don't count them for this sort of thing.

*Except the Planet Stealing thing. That's impressive.

[ChaosLord29]

Off the top of my head I'd say "none" but I'll mean it completely differently the an answer drawn from some of its partisan fandom metamagicked Quicken Maximized Empowered 40k.

Galactic empires are not nessecarily the most common things. And well if they aren't the trope namer for GRIMDARK they would function better. Also 40k has pretty terrible FTL capability in more ways then one.

I personally feel that many, nay even most, sci-fi empires/militaries on a per capita average basis would have less trouble with the Imperium then say... the modern US Armed Forces.

However just because lets say Heinlein's Cap Troopers (the original space marines!) could shred an IG division his Earth military has the scale to actually overwhelm the Imperium.

Anyways I'm sure there are plenty out there with either the scale or the tech, but you start to go a few tiers down in recognition and popularity. Like dragging out the original Lensman Arms Race that I understand got into swinging planets around as weapons.

You know Soras, I think I've figured out why you've been so down on the Imperium during this whole debate. It's because you really seem to be looking at the Imperium in terms of the fluff rather than the game mechanics prescribed by the system, weighing the fact that the Imperium is so revolutionarily dystopian as to have it's own genre very heavily in terms of how it must operate (and by your argument would eventually face face defeat).

Now as I said before I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion of the fact that the Imperium is a rotting corpse of an empire, whose raw bureaucratic ineptitude and total lack of anything resembling 'progress' completely hamper it's ability to effectively deal with the problems facing its vast domain in any meaningful way.

I still argue that any empire that measures the period of its downfall in millennia is still obviously a force to be reckoned with and the fact that the multitude of ailments it faces have not accelerated that decline speak to that lingering spark and persistent grit that keeps it going for at least a few more centuries at time. However, I sure hope that in trying to put the Covenant into mechanical terms effectively demonstrates just how ineffectual their forces would be against even a cursory response by the Imperium, let alone a century long crusade dedicated to eradicating them from the Galaxy (even if it took them a century to muster the forces to do so).

I don't expect you to be wholly convinced, but I hope you don't lump me in with the "partisan fandom metamagicked Quicken Maximized Empowered 40k" fans.

[Fan]

Also, Soras, let's get one thing straight.

I own two armies of 40k tabletop, one of Grey Knights as of the new codex which Incorporates my Warhound Titan that I use for Apocalypse, and the Blood Angels army I actually play with.

I own, and let me count.

The Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Grey Knights, Soul drinkers, Space Wolves Omnibuses, and Horus Rising. Each containing 2-4 books. I can't remember off the top of my head. So there's 13 books right there just for space marines. With 2 of them being dedicated to Chaos.

Traitors Hand, First and Only, Ghostmaker, Necropolis, The Founding Omnibus that contains First and Only, Ghost Maker, and Necropolis, The Saint Omnibus, The Lost Omnibus, and Blood Pact, and Salvations reach, The Inquisition War Omnibus.

And there's 12 books for Imperial Guard.

I have a book case full of their literature that I have read.

I am not portraying them falsely, I'm portraying them with quotes from multiple books, many of them not even Space Marine centric.

I am not "maximized, empowering, and quickening" them. This is how they are, because how multiple books represent them is more canon than your lower end interpretation.

Because things that actually happen are more valid than how you want them to be.

I am tired of you calling me a fanboy on all this crap, I'm tired of being told I'm the unreasonable one by you, when I am the ONLY one with evidence backing my claims rather than speculation. I have seen no one else provide scans to back their claims, I haven't even seen video links to back the Halo claims from you.

You have never provided anything but speculation, never provided evidence or scans, and have never done anything but use your opinion.

Please do not accuse people of fanboying when they have more evidence than you ever had to support their case. You did this in the Superman thread where you claimed I don't even READ Superman, when I had a literal book of comic scans, and even in the New 52 to quote Cosmic Man "Sorry, He's FASTER THAN LIGHTNING.", Superman IS faster than light, it's just there's been all of 12 issues to date, and Superman still needs to fight an actual threat on his own, with the house of el event coming up, we'll start to see more of that. But until then. Who has he fought that even compares to Darkseid, or Doomsday? No one.

You've been degrading in your approach of me in this thread the entire time you've addressed me, and I'm tired of you. You do nothing but degrade those who try to debate with you and rely on conjecture and your personal assumptions for your argument.

No. Just no.

[Urist]

Celestials from Marvel.

Thanos's race from Marvel.

The Kyrptonians pre Brianiac.

Babylon 5 operates in the Kilo - Megaton range, and aren't a threat on any measurable scale.

The Downstreamers.

King Tenchi from Tenchi Muyo! beats them all aside from maybe all the Big 4 as 1.

The Forerunners or the Precursors from Halo if their ability to produce and use the Halo Rings could be extrapolated to include a way to preserve themselves.

The Protoss pre their anti militarization is speculated to have weapon output that shames everything else in the game. With planet cracker lasers having been standard ship equipment going by some books.

The Skrulls from Marvel.

The Kree from Marvel.

The Inhumans from Marvel would take it in a sweep. (See: War of Kings. Black Bolt screams and rips a hole in the universe 13.42 parsecs wide or 43.7711208 light years across.)

There are plenty of settings that take them in a sweep, they're just on that edge where it's either a stomp one way or another with very few people (Star Wars, Star Trek.) balancing there with them.

The Forerunner's don't even need to have the Halo Rings. Von Neumann Sentinel's, as seen in the Ghost's Of Onyx alone would destroy most forces in 40k(except Chaos, which is a HUGE out of context problem for the Forerunners, who have no defense against such corruption). That's not even getting into the rest of their crazy tech, such as the industry base which allowed the Halo installations to be built in months being turned to ship building, hard light construction, individual warriors controlling millions of ship-to-ship capable drones, etc. That's a lot of Dakka.