The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[An Enemy Spy]

Precursors, to our knowledge are practically gods. They created almost all life in the entire galaxy and were capable of wiping out advanced species they didn't think measured up with probably minimal effort.
Precursor tech is also almost completely indestructible. This stuff is hundreds of millions of years old and some of it has been swallowed by tectonic plate movements only to pass out the other side completely intact. Imagine what they would be at the height of their power.

[Triscuitable]

Precursors, to our knowledge are practically gods. They created almost all life in the entire galaxy and were capable of wiping out advanced species they didn't think measured up with probably minimal effort.
Precursor tech is also almost completely indestructible. This stuff is hundreds of millions of years old and some of it has been swallowed by tectonic plate movements only to pass out the other side completely intact. Imagine what they would be at the height of their power.

In Halo? Those guys can be summarized easily: they got their butts handed to them by the developing Forerunners, so in revenge they created an entire species to wipe out the galactic population (the Flood, if you haven't guessed). I've heard of revenge post-mortem, but that's just extreme.

[ChaosLord29]

Precursors, to our knowledge are practically gods. They created almost all life in the entire galaxy and were capable of wiping out advanced species they didn't think measured up with probably minimal effort.
Precursor tech is also almost completely indestructible. This stuff is hundreds of millions of years old and some of it has been swallowed by tectonic plate movements only to pass out the other side completely intact. Imagine what they would be at the height of their power.

They would be . . . the old ones! The original creators of life in the galaxy who eventually succumb to Chaos. Just further proof that the Halo and 40k are actually connected!

[The Glyphstone]

The Flood are proto-Tyranids! They eventually managed to overrun the galaxy, because Master Chief kept wrecking the Halo rings, and ate/infected everyone. Then they mutated, started infecting non-humanoids, mutated further and gained the ability to produce bodies independently while the Gravemind continued growing into a full-on Hive Mind, scoured the Haloverse clean, then moved on to the next galaxy over...a couple galaxies later, they hit the 40Kverse galaxy. It all makes sense!

[ChaosLord29]

The Flood are proto-Tyranids! They eventually managed to overrun the galaxy, because Master Chief kept wrecking the Halo rings, and ate/infected everyone. Then they mutated, started infecting non-humanoids, mutated further and gained the ability to produce bodies independently while the Gravemind continued growing into a full-on Hive Mind, scoured the Haloverse clean, then moved on to the next galaxy over...a couple galaxies later, they hit the 40Kverse galaxy. It all makes sense!

Actually I was thinking that the only floodspores that manage to survive the fall of the Forerunners and Precursors are those which managed to float outside of the Milky Way galaxy, only to consume a nacent galaxy without the means to defend themselves!

However, the story is pretty much the same from there, except instead of discovering the 40k Galaxy, they actually are returning to it, 38,000 years later!

[The Glyphstone]

Actually I was thinking that the only floodspores that manage to survive the fall of the Forerunners and Precursors are those which managed to float outside of the Milky Way galaxy, only to consume a nacent galaxy without the means to defend themselves!

However, the story is pretty much the same from there, except instead of discovering the 40k Galaxy, they actually are returning to it, 38,000 years later!

Okay, I like that better. :)

[An Enemy Spy]

Actually I was thinking that the only floodspores that manage to survive the fall of the Forerunners and Precursors are those which managed to float outside of the Milky Way galaxy, only to consume a nacent galaxy without the means to defend themselves!

However, the story is pretty much the same from there, except instead of discovering the 40k Galaxy, they actually are returning to it, 38,000 years later!

What about the Flood still in the Milky Way? Are we just going to have to wait for Halo 6 to potentially resolve that plot thread?

[Triscuitable]

Okay, I like that better. :)

It's been established that the Flood isn't from the Milky Way.

[The Glyphstone]

It's been established that the Flood isn't from the Milky Way.

Details, details...

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ender's Game Government-thing, if only because the Doctor MD is a friggin' ridiculous weapon, though they probably wouldn't survive the reprisal attacks.

No FTL. The Imperium's isn't very good all considered but its still FTL.

Jane the semi-omnipotent quasi-AI from the end of the series could by teleporting a Little Doctor right to Holy Terra and disabling the Imperium at a stroke. But that's a pretty heavy into the story.

You know Soras, I think I've figured out why you've been so down on the Imperium during this whole debate. It's because you really seem to be looking at the Imperium in terms of the fluff rather than the game mechanics prescribed by the system, weighing the fact that the Imperium is so revolutionarily dystopian as to have it's own genre very heavily in terms of how it must operate (and by your argument would eventually face face defeat).

I do disregard a lot of game mechanics. Almost by default, as at the end of the day they aren't what happens but a rough simulation of what happens. This isn't just for 40k but for everything.

Bu just for a small example of why do you think the table-top Marines can do a bit of the things they are ascribed too? They can't. I understand GW even put out a brief guide for "movie marines" in one of their mags for how the in-universe one operate. And in it the Marines were all built like Hive Tyrants and hundreds of points or whatever.

As I said though this applies to everything. D&D wizards for example are a lot weaker in reality when bereft of a turn based system, an in-game caster may never make a concentration check simply by moving on a move action and casting with their standard action. A "real" wizard that tries that though ends up dead because at best their opponent follows right along when things happen in real time.

And countless other things.

As for the Imperium, well I this is about the Mechanicus in particular but as it underlines a lot of my views I think this says it best: (WARNING: Pretty Long)

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"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare ****hole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is ****ed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find ****, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently ****ed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a ****ing grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The ****ing Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seek to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better ****ing please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day ****. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.

This is why they do not like ANYONE ****ing with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to **** with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall ****ed everything up and the Heresy double-****ed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, and they never have.

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire ****ing military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.

Since some still don't get the idea, try this:

Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-****ing-where near it. Where the **** did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single **** decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a **** life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die." -- Baron von Evilsatan

(pulled from 1d4chan, I presume originally posted somewhere on /tg/, NSFW page so no linkk)

While ostensibly just talking about tech this I think similar sentiments apply to the Imperium as a whole.

I still argue that any empire that measures the period of its downfall in millennia is still obviously a force to be reckoned with and the fact that the multitude of ailments it faces have not accelerated that decline speak to that lingering spark and persistent grit that keeps it going for at least a few more centuries at time.

I do see what your saying but... ehh... I suppose at the end of the day I think a lot the Imperium's problems are, or at least were, fundamentally solvable.

Heck only a lot more magic handwaving keeps the Orks and the 'Nids anything more then a nuisance.

However, I sure hope that in trying to put the Covenant into mechanical terms effectively demonstrates just how ineffectual their forces would be against even a cursory response by the Imperium, let alone a century long crusade dedicated to eradicating them from the Galaxy (even if it took them a century to muster the forces to do so).

A mechancial conversion is a conversion, it has fairly little bearing on the original question since that would simply determine whether or not it was a good/accurate conversion based upon the entirely separate answer to the original question.

For example is picking a "standard" force field from 40k sufficient to accurately depict Covenant shields? All force fields are alike now, of course not! Maybe treating them as table top power armor (see above movie marines) and not an invulnerable save is more appropriate. Maybe a stronger then normal invulnerable save is appropriate.

One opinion on who would win determines the opinion on the other.

Also table top is of limited application. Its sort of a collective sci-fi delusion that planets will matter at all in the future in my book. Separate argument need not detain us here. I'm loosely supportive that the Covenant would loose on the ground, because I remain fairly unimpressed with Haloverse vehicles.

Space remains the much more slippery question. One I continue to feel the Covenant has more then enough force levels and fire power to make the Imperium decide they'd rather not gather fleets from all over the galaxy to match the numbers and losses they'd face while fighting a foe that can outrange them.

I don't expect you to be wholly convinced, but I hope you don't lump me in with the "partisan fandom metamagicked Quicken Maximized Empowered 40k" fans.

You actually are quite reasonable, unlike what I've seen on other sites where people apparently think the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is toning down how awesome everything is... or something.

And just for a bit of clarification. Quickened Maximized Empowered partisan fandom metamagic is itself a far more widespread phenomena. 40k is perhaps one of the more common recipients in my experience but far from the only one.

Mostly because versus thread run on the proponents assuming their favorite faction is the superior one and working from there. I (admittedly perhaps just as arrogantly) assume parity between any match-up and then go looking for reasons why this might not be so. Sadly this lets me use phrases like "own", "mop the floor with", or "no contest" far more rarely.

[ChaosLord29]

Mostly because versus thread run on the proponents assuming their favorite faction is the superior one and working from there. I (admittedly perhaps just as arrogantly) assume parity between any match-up and then go looking for reasons why this might not be so. Sadly this lets me use phrases like "own", "mop the floor with", or "no contest" far more rarely.

That, being the inherent weakness to any human attempting to begin a debate. We inevitably have our own preconceived notions and influences that cause us to be partisan towards one side or another. I must admit that I resent Halo just on the basis that I think unfairly 'borrows' far too many elements from 40k to the point where it's basically an out of genre ripoff. I have much the same dispute with Eragon and Star Wars, but that's another argument entirely.

Anyway, I think you've been more than reasonable on more than a few counts during this debate and I've legitimately enjoyed your input (however contrary it is to my own assertions).

I still think the Imperium would win, but your arguments have convinced me it would very much have to be a long term sort of victory, and I believe in that time frame the Covenant might very well adapt sufficiently to become a stable faction in Galactic Politics.

Which of course the Eldar would never allow XD

Really, that's the only claim I have to making any sort of objective analysis about the IoM; The fact remains that I am at heart a raging, die hard, space-elf fanboy and firmly believe that their times has not in fact past in this Galaxy, and one day all the filthy mon-keigh will come to know their place as semi-evolved troglodytes before the glory of the children of Isha . . .

Really, I think that would just make for the coolest team up. The Eldar manipulating the Covenant by appearing to the prophets as the emissaries of the Forerunners and guiding them through visions to discover some Craftworld or another, then claiming to be pilgrims too along the Great Journey and 'guiding' them to strike at their mutual foes.

[An Enemy Spy]

That, being the inherent weakness to any human attempting to begin a debate. We inevitably have our own preconceived notions and influences that cause us to be partisan towards one side or another. I must admit that I resent Halo just on the basis that I think unfairly 'borrows' far too many elements from 40k to the point where it's basically an out of genre ripoff. I have much the same dispute with Eragon and Star Wars, but that's another argument entirely.

Anyway, I think you've been more than reasonable on more than a few counts during this debate and I've legitimately enjoyed your input (however contrary it is to my own assertions).

I still think the Imperium would win, but your arguments have convinced me it would very much have to be a long term sort of victory, and I believe in that time frame the Covenant might very well adapt sufficiently to become a stable faction in Galactic Politics.

Which of course the Eldar would never allow XD

Really, that's the only claim I have to making any sort of objective analysis about the IoM; The fact remains that I am at heart a raging, die hard, space-elf fanboy and firmly believe that their times has not in fact past in this Galaxy, and one day all the filthy mon-keigh will come to know their place as semi-evolved troglodytes before the glory of the children of Isha . . .

Really, I think that would just make for the coolest team up. The Eldar manipulating the Covenant by appearing to the prophets as the emissaries of the Forerunners and guiding them through visions to discover some Craftworld or another, then claiming to be pilgrims too along the Great Journey and 'guiding' them to strike at their mutual foes.

Give it a few thousand years. The Eldar will be all gone and the Imperium will have regressed even further. The true masters of the Galaxy are going to be the 'Nids and Necrons, with the Orks still doing what they do.

[ChaosLord29]

Give it a few thousand years. The Eldar will be all gone and the Imperium will have regressed even further. The true masters of the Galaxy are going to be the 'Nids and Necrons, with the Orks still doing what they do.

If the Eldar are gone, then bam! suddenly Ygnirr is exacting vengeance up and down the galaxy, killing C'tan like it's nothing, twisting the Hivemind around his finger, then kicking that nancy Slaanesh right in the family jewels.

Or at least, one can dream.

[Triscuitable]

I do disregard a lot of game mechanics. Almost by default, as at the end of the day they aren't what happens but a rough simulation of what happens. This isn't just for 40k but for everything.

Excellent, glad you think the same way. Now stop treating the brutes like they are in the video games, because it's not fair. The Covenant in the games is weak for a purpose (so the player doesn't hurl the controller in blind rage). The Imperium is strong in the games so the player feels like his army is less of a squad of 20-something soldiers, and more like a massive battlefield commander.

Do you catch my drift?

[Soras Teva Gee]

That, being the inherent weakness to any human attempting to begin a debate. We inevitably have our own preconceived notions and influences that cause us to be partisan towards one side or another. I must admit that I resent Halo just on the basis that I think unfairly 'borrows' far too many elements from 40k to the point where it's basically an out of genre ripoff. I have much the same dispute with Eragon and Star Wars, but that's another argument entirely.

I'd say you are perhaps more then a bit unfair in that belief.

Now sure Master Chief fits the space marine archetype... but 40k stole that from Heinlein's Starship Troopers in the first place. Or maybe Joe Simon and Jack Kirby for the idea of the "super soldier" what with Captain America first punching out Hitler in 1941. If not others in other forms, going back to perhaps even the Spartans or further. The rest of the UNSC is pretty much the American military taken to the future, adding of course the SEALs to the Master Chief equation.

For the arguably more distinct Covenant... well they do have a fair bit of common ground with the Tau. However both date to 2001 but games have long development cycles so unless Bungie was doing corporate idea raiding well before release that doesn't hold up to examination either. I believe the Halo story structure was set well back in the 90s even.

While itself a perhaps unique take (or has become so) what with being the grim darkness of the grimdark... but 40k like most settings is not that unique. The Eldar name is presumably only allowed by technicalities of IP law, the 'Nids have gotten less subtle about their origins designwise, most IG types can be tied to a certain Earth style.... I could go on and on. I mean heck the Necrons used to have "I'll Be Back" as a special rule for crying out loud.

Creativity all gets very chicken and egg if you look at it long enough.

Anyway, I think you've been more than reasonable on more than a few counts during this debate and I've legitimately enjoyed your input (however contrary it is to my own assertions).

I still think the Imperium would win, but your arguments have convinced me it would very much have to be a long term sort of victory, and I believe in that time frame the Covenant might very well adapt sufficiently to become a stable faction in Galactic Politics.

Which of course the Eldar would never allow XD

Well wouldn't just as many Eldar from another craftworld be going "Just as planned" or whatever?

And yeah this isn't something were going to resolve that much. Maybe Halo 4 will have something revealing. Be interesting to see what the Covenant is like after 4 years or so.

Really, that's the only claim I have to making any sort of objective analysis about the IoM; The fact remains that I am at heart a raging, die hard, space-elf fanboy and firmly believe that their times has not in fact past in this Galaxy, and one day all the filthy mon-keigh will come to know their place as semi-evolved troglodytes before the glory of the children of Isha . . .

Yeah thanks for Slaanesh and the Eye of Terror you pointy-eared xeno bastards, you've truly proven your superiority there.

[MLai]

Soras, that was a very interesting read regarding the Adeptus Mechanicus. It makes a lot more sense than "They are superstitious because of the GRIMDARK idiot ball."

So now I'm curious on what you just said regarding the Nids and the Orkz. Are you saying they're unsustainable? Why? If locust swarming is an evolutionarily-advantageous behavior on Earth, why can't a controlled sentient form of it be advantageous for a spacefaring species?

Surely you can't be saying biological spaceships can't exist (Nids). As for Orkz, I admit Orkz being spacefaring by virtue of "I think therefore I can" is sort of a handwave. But in a universe where psychic power exists, their unique collective psychic ability is plausible.

[Triscuitable]

And yeah this isn't something were going to resolve that much. Maybe Halo 4 will have something revealing. Be interesting to see what the Covenant is like after 4 years or so.

Using even more powerful Forerunner technology, having the Elites in control, and battling Forerunner mechs from a Cryptum and living?

Yeah, I'd say the past 3 (in-universe) years have been kind to them, despite the fragmenting from Halo 2.

[ChaosLord29]

I'd say you are perhaps more then a bit unfair in that belief.

Now sure Master Chief fits the space marine archetype... but 40k stole that from Heinlein's Starship Troopers in the first place. Or maybe Joe Simon and Jack Kirby for the idea of the "super soldier" what with Captain America first punching out Hitler in 1941. If not others in other forms, going back to perhaps even the Spartans or further. The rest of the UNSC is pretty much the American military taken to the future, adding of course the SEALs to the Master Chief equation.

While itself a perhaps unique take (or has become so) what with being the grim darkness of the grimdark... but 40k like most settings is not that unique. The Eldar name is presumably only allowed by technicalities of IP law, the 'Nids have gotten less subtle about their origins designwise, most IG types can be tied to a certain Earth style.... I could go on and on. I mean heck the Necrons used to have "I'll Be Back" as a special rule for crying out loud.

I think the Covenant are relatively distinct amongst alien invaders, and I know full well the original space marines wearing powered armor (and using flamethrowers that had yet to be invented) were Heinlen's creation and a metaphor against the socialist threat.

But here's the thing, 40k Space Marines borrow a lot of elements from them, sure, but the Spartans of Halo have just a few too many concurrent details for me to completely belief that at least a couple of the people on the original Bungie development team weren't Games Workshop enthusiasts or outright in it to create a Space Marine first person shooter (There's actually some crossover in staff and design teams from the original 40k FPS "Fire Warrior" but all in all it's a pretty incestuous community so nothing conclusive).

It's actually the same argument I make with Eragon and Star Wars. 40k and Halo are both more or less archetypal of their genre, 40k as the trope naming original Grim Dark dystopia, and Halo as the most revolutionary FPS since Goldeneye, who popularized regenerating shields/health, hulking faceless protagonists wearing football pads/power armor, and cover based firefight combat. Granted, none of those elements can truly be claimed to be unique or original to their respective game (your whole chicken and the egg point), but taken together . . . well, let me break it down item by item.

"Humanity is beset by alien invaders who have invaded and massacred countless human beings, and brought us to the brink of destruction. The last best hope for humanity's survival are the genetically enhanced, power armored super soldiers, equipped with the best technology that can be offered. Now these soldiers are too few and far between to be everywhere at once, but wherever they go they strike fear into the hearts of the alien foes, earning them a religious moniker, and helping to stem the otherwise inevitable victory of the alien menace."

Am I describing the UNSC Spartans (Halo), the Imperium's Adeptus Astartes (40k), the Terran Federation's Mobile Infantry (Starship Troopers), Terran Marines (Starcraft), Coalition of Ordered Governments Gears (Gears of War), Colonial Marines (Aliens), Republic Clone Commandos (Star Wars), Storm Troopers (Star Wars), or any other work of fiction's interpretation of the 'Space Marine'?

Well wouldn't just as many Eldar from another craftworld be going "Just as planned" or whatever?

Oh totally, it's why I love playing as them. Gives me lots of opportunities to ring my hands and say "Everything is unfolding as I have foreseen . . "

Yeah thanks for Slaanesh and the Eye of Terror you pointy-eared xeno bastards, you've truly proven your superiority there.

You're welcome, and . . . you're welcome

[Soras Teva Gee]

So now I'm curious on what you just said regarding the Nids and the Orkz. Are you saying they're unsustainable? Why? If locust swarming is an evolutionarily-advantageous behavior on Earth, why can't a controlled sentient form of it be advantageous for a spacefaring species?

Surely you can't be saying biological spaceships can't exist (Nids). As for Orkz, I admit Orkz being spacefaring by virtue of "I think therefore I can" is sort of a handwave. But in a universe where psychic power exists, their unique collective psychic ability is plausible.

This is all from the sometimes dubious IRL perspective but for the 'Nids:

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-The "Zerg Rush" and its close cousin "We Have Reserves" are stupid. At least for anything post WWI tech level, primarily because of WWI. Because in the real world living things are not cheap, they are expensive. Machines are cheap. This is why NASA is sending robots and not people to Mars, because keeping people alive is a lot more work and therefore money. Applied to battle this means its far better on the whole to to keep your casualties low by say destroying your enemy from say cover or just plain out of their range. Sure sometimes swarming is called for, but so is retreating to fight another day. (Not like the 'Nids are the only one with this problem)

-You cannot recycle your dead like some sort of perpetual motion machine. There will be a loss in the exchange, second law of thermodynamics. The 'Nids get to pretend this isn't so.

-Organic tech is a little stupid. Whats the difference between a plastic pipe and a living pipe? The living pipe drinks a little bit of the water it carries. Continuously and without stopping. Sure a plastic pipe might wear out, but on a much longer timeframe and at a savings versus the lost efficiency. Now oversimplified example but basically living technology has to concern itself with all the troubles of staying alive, all the time.

-A lot of other engineering issues, like you are not going to ever grow anything as fast as an assembly line manufactures things. Or say the gap in effectiveness between things machines achieve easily like speed. A cheetah cannot out perform a car and much less in cargo terms for example.

I should also point out that in the namer of the Bug War (and the 'Nids are a Bug War) the aforementioned Bugs actually used dedicated warriors with weapons, technology, and numbers akin to their enemies the Cap Troopers. The one time they used the now trademark swarm... it was a trick.

tl:dr, The Nids should have long since starved themselves out of existence and instead get to magically ignore their own energy and engineering requirements.

Now da Orks yeah you touched on it... they just plain should not be a space faring race. More to the point they should not be anymore threatening then, lets say fantasy orcs. So they instead get actual magic allowing them to just wish things into working.

Using even more powerful Forerunner technology, having the Elites in control, and battling Forerunner mechs from a Cryptum and living?

Yeah, I'd say the past 3 (in-universe) years have been kind to them, despite the fragmenting from Halo 2.

Hey I'm not an major Halo fan so I've no idea what has/hasn't been leaked and/or hinted at or what will be the eventual materialization of it all.

Just that I know they are scheduled to show up in some capacity. As it should be. And the Flood isn't, a truly hopeful sign for a greater game. (Stupid space zeds!)

[Tiki Snakes]

Is it fair to say then, that your position in the whole 40k vs Halo thing has been rather more anti-Imperium than Pro Covenant?

[An Enemy Spy]

The Flood absolutely will be in Halo 4. Don't always believe the official reports.

[Maugan Ra]

The Tyranids, despite their initial Zerg-rush overtones, actually have a surprisingly good grasp of general tactics and warfare. It's just expressed on a macro level, and favors a combined arms approach to an exceptional degree.

Their base troops are either fast moving infantry with an instinctive drive to take cover and engage the enemy at range, or claw-wielding pack hunters that can outrun motorbikes. They have infiltration and espionage units equipped with active camoflague, and which can obtain accurate intelligence directly from the minds of their enemies. They have a viable air force, complete with what are effectively long range aircraft carriers. They have artillery and siege units, psychic support and line breakers. And co-ordinating all of this, they have highly intelligent specialist units that use telepathy to achieve logistical control in a way most armies can only dream of.

On the energy conservation side... Photosynthesis. Everything we know about the Tyranids suggests that they almost certainly have the capability, and being space-faring life forms they have a much more direct access to the stars than we do on planet. That they keep attacking, conquering and devouring other races in the face of such abundant energy supply can simply be put down to the fact that they've quite obviously been designed as weapons.

[ChaosLord29]

The Tyranids, despite their initial Zerg-rush overtones, actually have a surprisingly good grasp of general tactics and warfare. It's just expressed on a macro level, and favors a combined arms approach to an exceptional degree.

Their base troops are either fast moving infantry with an instinctive drive to take cover and engage the enemy at range, or claw-wielding pack hunters that can outrun motorbikes. They have infiltration and espionage units equipped with active camoflague, and which can obtain accurate intelligence directly from the minds of their enemies. They have a viable air force, complete with what are effectively long range aircraft carriers. They have artillery and siege units, psychic support and line breakers. And co-ordinating all of this, they have highly intelligent specialist units that use telepathy to achieve logistical control in a way most armies can only dream of.

On the energy conservation side... Photosynthesis. Everything we know about the Tyranids suggests that they almost certainly have the capability, and being space-faring life forms they have a much more direct access to the stars than we do on planet. That they keep attacking, conquering and devouring other races in the face of such abundant energy supply can simply be put down to the fact that they've quite obviously been designed as weapons.

I'm on Maugan Ra on this one. I knew more or less that the 'living weapon' mechanics didn't really make any sense, unless the Tyranids had some supplemental source of energy and some way of reconstructing matter at the molecular level. The second one is easy considering they seem to do that with whatever twisted mess of genetic data they seem to use, and the first one I attributed to some sort of accelerated or mass photosynthesis using enzymes heretofore unknown to earth life forms.

[The Glyphstone]

That, and it's not that Tyranids have a 100% energy efficiency return from eating their own dead, it's the net profit they make from also eating their enemy's dead and any other organic matter they find. They're hardly 'magically ignoring their own energy requirements', considering the most common and well-known in-universe tactic for handling Tyranids outside 'have lots of guns' is 'burn your dead and theirs'. It's true that organic machinery is less efficient than its mechanical counterpart, but on the flip side, they have immense flexibility in their resupply in exchange for that loss of efficiency - their organic 'factories' contain the genetic templates for any creature in the Tyranid arsenal, from Rippers to Heirodules, as long the raw materials are available. No technological factory that doesn't use nanotech or molecular assembly can match that in production output/variability.

TLDR: Tyranids are more logical than you're giving them credit for.

[ChaosLord29]

That, and it's not that Tyranids have a 100% energy efficiency return from eating their own dead, it's the net profit they make from also eating their enemy's dead and any other organic matter they find. They're hardly 'magically ignoring their own energy requirements', considering the most common and well-known in-universe tactic for handling Tyranids outside 'have lots of guns' is 'burn your dead and theirs'. It's true that organic machinery is less efficient than its mechanical counterpart, but on the flip side, they have immense flexibility in their resupply in exchange for that loss of efficiency - their organic 'factories' contain the genetic templates for any creature in the Tyranid arsenal, from Rippers to Heirodules, as long the raw materials are available. No technological factory that doesn't use nanotech or molecular assembly can match that in production output/variability.

TLDR: Tyranids are more logical than you're giving them credit for.

I feel like this is the 7th or 8th time I've seconded one of your posts Glyphstone.

[hamishspence]

I'm also a bit doubtful about the 4chan description of Mars and the Mechanicum that's being quoted. It doesn't seem to fit the novels I've read. Or the techpriest-centric Dark Heresy splatbook The Lathe Worlds.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I could write a long post for all of this but understand there's a difference between having loosely not-impossible justifications and actually making sense. And that's the difference, the Orks have an explanation too and its reasonably encompassing for story purposes. Doesn't change that without it they wouldn't function. And for certain levels of the story that's fine and I really don't have a problem with it. (It does still exist)

To touch briefly on specifics:

-Tactics, fair enough. The 'Nids aren't zeds at least.

-Outrunning a motorcycle and other feats of loose parity I just have to disagree on the basic plausiblity and feel that it will always a less economical way of doing thing. A cheetah might match a car going as fast as it could safely say, but then it gets tired much much quicker to because chemical releases of energy like that only go so far. And scaling a cheetah up exacerbates that problem.

-No eating the rest of the dead is not that much better. If they're alike enough to get anything at all then that also means that say wood isn't exactly nutritious even putting aside processing it and everything else. Especially given how much of the energy gained would immediately go into the monumental task of lifting itself into orbit there's just not a lot of profit in the eat everything model.

-Photosynthesis, if I saw it supported might not be too bad. However chemical energy as life actively uses it isn't that efficient, compare how many plants feed how many herbivores.

In general its not that justifications don't exist, its that organic technology needs a lot more. Like at almost every level

Consider I make say a bike with a sci-fi energy source. As long as that fuel source produces electrical or kinetic energy you can substitute it with existing designs. Better yet if its a highly effective energy source then you can easily have higher performance since you can run now at level that was possible but prohibitively expensive before.

Organic tech has to do a lot of work simply to catch-up to existing designs. About the only vaguely viable organic tech would perhaps be organically produced technology. 'Nids not outrunning a bike, but riding on one made of bone-esque solid material burning an ethanol like fuel. Basically changing the production, not the function. And these bonebikes and everythign else would be from planets the 'Nids nidoformed to produce a completely controlled ecosystem. This isn't how they and the many similar cases across sci-fi are depicted though.

Its a sort of combined delusion. Aliens are not going to be superpowered, they would more likely fit into ranges seen on Earth already. And animals are on the whole outstripped by machines.

I really really really really really really really really really don't mind that much, like with how sci-fi inhabits other worlds and not just space stations, but its not like it doesn't exist.

[ChaosLord29]

All very much fair to say.

But I'm still waiting for a response to my Halo Spartans/Adeptus Astartes concurrent evolution point XD

[Soras Teva Gee]

All very much fair to say.

But I'm still waiting for a response to my Halo Spartans/Adeptus Astartes concurrent evolution point XD

I suppose keeping it simple... well there's nothing about Halo that is "ripping off" 40k in a meaningful way. Especially as 40k itself didn't come up with much on its own. Yes there are resemblances but of the sort that stop mattering because their shared archetypes bigger then either. Halo isn't taking anything truly distinct to 40k.

Essentially their differences are what separates them and are more important. Foremost, Halo while not exactly brightly colored ponies is not GRIMDARK either. It really plays out more like certain modern IRL political conflicts rather then the sort gothic world of sin morality play feel of 40k.

[ChaosLord29]

I suppose keeping it simple... well there's nothing about Halo that is "ripping off" 40k in a meaningful way. Especially as 40k itself didn't come up with much on its own. Yes there are resemblances but of the sort that stop mattering because their shared archetypes bigger then either. Halo isn't taking anything truly distinct to 40k.

Essentially their differences are what separates them and are more important. Foremost, Halo while not exactly brightly colored ponies is not GRIMDARK either. It really plays out more like certain modern IRL political conflicts rather then the sort gothic world of sin morality play feel of 40k.

Oh totally, genre wise it is completely different. However, I will disagree that I think it does overlap with 40k in a meaningful way, namely that the Spartans are share so many concurrent details with the Adeptus Astartes as to constitute something besides the simple sharing of similar concepts not unique to either work, and encroaching on something akin to the wholesale lifting of a very specific union of concepts and transplanting them into a different genre (still under the umbrella of science fiction).

The way I see it, Halo borrowed all of it's most interesting and compelling elements from 40k and simply made them more palatable and popularized in a less grim and dark setting. The games in particular do a great job of glossing over the darker elements and implications of the Halo universe in order to net them a more positive rating and appeal to a lower common denominator of fans.

I don't mean to insult Halo fans their, and I must give credit to Halo for taking everything that are the Space Marines and the Imperium and making them more popular, I just wish they gave credit back to 40k for borrowing all of those elements.