The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm with Soras. 40k and Halo have similar concepts, but so does everything ever.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't mean to insult Halo fans their, and I must give credit to Halo for taking everything that are the Space Marines and the Imperium and making them more popular, I just wish they gave credit back to 40k for borrowing all of those elements.

The problem is that 40k doesn't own space marines, and certainly didn't originate them. Nor is it really easy to say Halo "took" anything without something clearer.

Chief in particular by being Master Chief directly invokes the SEALs. The program name and its original methodology directly invoke Sparta. Genetic engineering is just everywhere. He doesn't use some stylized weapon, he uses a generic assault rifle. And the armor may be power armor... but shares faaaaaar more with actual IRL concepts then the Marine's giant knight designs.

You evidently hold something against the setting for lifting things from 40k, but as unless you have some sort of hard evidence of this (like actual statements so forth) then you can't really say that Halo took anything from 40k.

They arrived at some very loosely similar places, but not through any discernible exchange. Was there maybe some remote influence from a couple of the staff, its possible but without evidence its like complaining about influence from having grown up watching SW and ST... only without ubiquity of the two biggest SF franchises to support that it probably happened.

[hamishspence]

Concerning 40K naval assets- there's an element of room for interpretation.

A macrocannon shell is "kilotonne ordnance" "the size of a hab-block"- but does that mean kiloton explosion, or the shell weighs a thousand tonnes- packing much more in the way of actual explosion+kinetic energy?

In Rogue Trader the individual blasts of the shells in an orbital strike (Battlefleet Koronus splatbook) are fairly small- tens of metres.

The Heresy-era ships were a bit larger than their modern counterparts- in Know No Fear- there's a 4 km escort, a 9 km cruiser, a 12 km grand cruiser, and a 17 km battleship.

Compare to the 1.5-2 km escorts, 5 km cruisers, 6-7 km grand cruisers, of the 41st Millennium.

Probably the biggest weaknesses- their shields don't stop large, slower-moving objects like attack craft and torpedoes- and their turning ability is terrible. It can take an hour for the most manoeuvrable escorts to complete a circle- and that's with power being diverted from other systems to turning (the Come to New Heading special order represents this).

[ChaosLord29]

I'll agree I've got nothing hard in the way of plagiarism, but I would like at least someone else to acknowledge that the idea that Halo created something that so closely mirrors the 40k Space Marines goes a little beyond appealing to ubiquitous concepts present throughout the genre.

I feel my arguments bear repeating at this point:

"Humanity is beset by alien invaders who have invaded and massacred countless human beings, and brought us to the brink of destruction. The last best hope for humanity's survival are the genetically enhanced, power armored super soldiers, equipped with the best technology that can be offered. Now these soldiers are too few and far between to be everywhere at once, but wherever they go they strike fear into the hearts of the alien foes, earning them a religious moniker, and helping to stem the otherwise inevitable victory of the alien menace."

Am I describing the UNSC Spartans (Halo), the Imperium's Adeptus Astartes (40k), the Terran Federation's Mobile Infantry (Starship Troopers), Terran Marines (Starcraft), Coalition of Ordered Governments Gears (Gears of War), Colonial Marines (Aliens), Republic Clone Commandos (Star Wars), Storm Troopers (Star Wars), or any other work of fiction's interpretation of the 'Space Marine'?

Also, don't appeal to the 'You don't have evidence that would hold up in a court of law, therefore you have nothing' ploy. This isn't a court of law, and I'm not looking to convict Halo of anything, or even to sabotage Bungie. I enjoyed the Halo games, I just don't think that Halo fans have a leg stand on claiming Halo is anything particularly unique, original, or all that meaningful.

Fortunately, the argument that they were only utilizing ubiquitous elements present in everything that involves space marines only furthers my own argument that Halo is lowest common denominator creative fiction. Kind of like the Twilight of Space Marines vs Alien Invader science fiction. Lots of Twilight fans point out that Stephanie Meyer's vampires aren't anything like classic vampire fiction, but the overarching point is that her books are trash because they're nothing but piss poor cheap romance surrounded wrapped up in a vampires vs werewolves conflict, the most universally commonplace supernatural creatures of all time. Halo is the same thing, except with Space Marines, and Evil Aliens (and for a twist, don't forget they used Zombies too! In Space!).

Again, don't get me wrong, I thought the Halo games were damn enjoyable (especially when the Flood were introduced, I thought it was a nice twist), I just didn't think they were anything too special. Certainly not the kind of thing warranting a whole franchise and a quintet of games.

Maybe the Twilight comparison is too insulting though, and doesn't quite get what I'm trying to convey . . . How about this: Few people are bigger classic rock and Led Zeppelin fans than I am. I believe they were inspirational and that as a group their collective works have no equal (no accounting for taste). However, I recognize that a lot of Zeppelin's early work (and some later work) was outright plagiarized from other groups who were going nowhere with it. Zeppelin popularized what other groups had been doing because they had the talent, presence, and just a smidgen of luck (okay, a lot of luck . . . plus they were white) to do what the other groups hadn't yet.

Halo is like that. By appealing to a larger base, they took what others were doing just as well, perhaps even more meaningfully, and made it much more popular and in a way made it their own. Granted, I think Zeppelin's music is on the whole more meaningful than the Halo series (%90 of video games really), but I digress.

[The Glyphstone]

Halo didn't earn its franchise with its story. It revolutionized the console FPS genre with an entirely new style of gameplay and mechanics, building a following it's capitalized on.

[ChaosLord29]

Halo didn't earn its franchise with its story. It revolutionized the console FPS genre with an entirely new style of gameplay and mechanics, building a following it's capitalized on.

*Sigh* Well said . . .

Truly all credit to Halo for inventing the game mechanics which have since become omnipresent for FPS games, even the non science fiction ones.

I suppose if my beef should be with anyone, it should be Gears of War.

[An Enemy Spy]

I'll agree I've got nothing hard in the way of plagiarism, but I would like at least someone else to acknowledge that the idea that Halo created something that so closely mirrors the 40k Space Marines goes a little beyond appealing to ubiquitous concepts present throughout the genre.

I feel my arguments bear repeating at this point:


Also, don't appeal to the 'You don't have evidence that would hold up in a court of law, therefore you have nothing' ploy. This isn't a court of law, and I'm not looking to convict Halo of anything, or even to sabotage Bungie. I enjoyed the Halo games, I just don't think that Halo fans have a leg stand on claiming Halo is anything particularly unique, original, or all that meaningful.

Fortunately, the argument that they were only utilizing ubiquitous elements present in everything that involves space marines only furthers my own argument that Halo is lowest common denominator creative fiction. Kind of like the Twilight of Space Marines vs Alien Invader science fiction. Lots of Twilight fans point out that Stephanie Meyer's vampires aren't anything like classic vampire fiction, but the overarching point is that her books are trash because they're nothing but piss poor cheap romance surrounded wrapped up in a vampires vs werewolves conflict, the most universally commonplace supernatural creatures of all time. Halo is the same thing, except with Space Marines, and Evil Aliens (and for a twist, don't forget they used Zombies too! In Space!).

Again, don't get me wrong, I thought the Halo games were damn enjoyable (especially when the Flood were introduced, I thought it was a nice twist), I just didn't think they were anything too special. Certainly not the kind of thing warranting a whole franchise and a quintet of games.

Maybe the Twilight comparison is too insulting though, and doesn't quite get what I'm trying to convey . . . How about this: Few people are bigger classic rock and Led Zeppelin fans than I am. I believe they were inspirational and that as a group their collective works have no equal (no accounting for taste). However, I recognize that a lot of Zeppelin's early work (and some later work) was outright plagiarized from other groups who were going nowhere with it. Zeppelin popularized what other groups had been doing because they had the talent, presence, and just a smidgen of luck (okay, a lot of luck . . . plus they were white) to do what the other groups hadn't yet.

Halo is like that. By appealing to a larger base, they took what others were doing just as well, perhaps even more meaningfully, and made it much more popular and in a way made it their own. Granted, I think Zeppelin's music is on the whole more meaningful than the Halo series (%90 of video games really), but I digress.

Wow. Way to insult anyone who has more than a passing interest in Halo. Without going into it, I just just want to to say that Halo is nothing like Twilight, in either content or quality.

Anyway, what is Warhammer but a bunch of tropes taken from other Sci-Fi stories and blown up to their most extreme forms? It didn't invent Super powered marines, or hordes of space bugs, or space elves, or demons, or ancient precursors, or evil corruptive gods, really almost anything that's a main part of the series.

So no, Halo doesn't owe Warhammer anything. They both have a couple similarities that are drawn from generations of Sci-fi.

[ChaosLord29]

Wow. Way to insult anyone who has more than a passing interest in Halo. Without going into it, I just just want to to say that Halo is nothing like Twilight, in either content or quality.

Anyway, what is Warhammer but a bunch of tropes taken from other Sci-Fi stories and blown up to their most extreme forms? It didn't invent Super powered marines, or hordes of space bugs, or space elves, or demons, or ancient precursors, or evil corruptive gods, really almost anything that's a main part of the series.

So no, Halo doesn't owe Warhammer anything. They both have a couple similarities that are drawn from generations of Sci-fi.

Yeah, I'm starting to think the Twilight comparison wasn't entirely constructive.

Ok, try and look past that though. I'm not claiming 40k invented any of those concepts or that they are entirely unique to 40k, but if you look at what does make those elements unique inside of the 40k universe, I think there's one too many concurrent details with what supposedly makes Halo unique to be called coincidence.

Is anything lawsuit worthy? No. My point is only that Halo could bear to acknowledge it's roots a little more (something that 40k does without pride or ego).

[An Enemy Spy]

Yeah, I'm starting to think the Twilight comparison wasn't entirely constructive.

Ok, try and look past that though. I'm not claiming 40k invented any of those concepts or that they are entirely unique to 40k, but if you look at what does make those elements unique inside of the 40k universe, I think there's one too many concurrent details with what supposedly makes Halo unique to be called coincidence.

Is anything lawsuit worthy? No. My point is only that Halo could bear to acknowledge it's roots a little more (something that 40k does without pride or ego).

Halo has roots in Starship Troopers, Aliens and Ringworld, all of which are referenced at various times. Just because you like 40k doesn't mean anything with superficial similarities is borrowing from it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well to this

"Humanity is beset by alien invaders who have invaded and massacred countless human beings, and brought us to the brink of destruction. The last best hope for humanity's survival are the genetically enhanced, power armored super soldiers, equipped with the best technology that can be offered. Now these soldiers are too few and far between to be everywhere at once, but wherever they go they strike fear into the hearts of the alien foes, earning them a religious moniker, and helping to stem the otherwise inevitable victory of the alien menace."

Are you describing....

Halo: Well enough.

Space Marines: Ironically... no. I can tell you wrote that description to try and underline similarities but well, the problem is a bit disengenious to the setting to tell an alien invasion story as the whole of 40k. Nor do Space Marines carry the air of the last ditch high-stakes gamble or the like that they should to fit that. What with being ancient orders among other things. To fit the Space Marines would have to have been developed more recently after the otherwise reasonably peaceful Imperium could not stop the endless onslaught of the 'Nids.

Starship Troopers: Nope, humanity is at war but its more like a political one not an story of survival yet. Earth is struck but not occupied for example. And that war revolves around an all-volunteer professional force who's highly equipped because that is the best model under which to fight. Presuming you don't just nuke everything from orbit, which is discussed and dealt with in the book. Heinlein was philosophically predicting the post-draft model of the modern US military.

Starcraft: Long accused of being a 40k rip and probably actually is one. However ironically the Terrans are the most divergent in culture and approach of factions, marines are no elites though more accurately to 40k don't save humanity from the Tryanids Zerg. And kinda hard to escape whole default blue hulking power armor and big gun.

Gears of War: Know nothing about. (Its post Halo so it might be ripping Halo)

Aliens: No not even a little. Its not even a real military conflict in that movie its a horror flick set in space where they gave the edible extras guns for extra spice and to make civilian Ripley look badass.

Star Wars: Even remotely less if that were possible, humans versus other species is subtext/subplot at most. Nobody is an alien. The only thing even getting there close would be maybe the Vong of the latter EU.


You really have to make far more sweeping generalizations that are disingenuous to the original material to the text to make this work. Though I'm sure there are perhaps better examples I'd not be suprised if they are more Halocentric then any of these examples.

And seriously Halo is totally not lowest common denominator. Even for not being some sort of genre launch or whatever it is a rather well done story. While it has its weakpoints for sure, most stories particularly of the medium wish they were half as well told as Halo.

[ChaosLord29]

Well to this



Are you describing....

Halo: Well enough.

Space Marines: Ironically... no. I can tell you wrote that description to try and underline similarities but well, the problem is a bit disengenious to the setting to tell an alien invasion story as the whole of 40k. Nor do Space Marines carry the air of the last ditch high-stakes gamble or the like that they should to fit that. What with being ancient orders among other things. To fit the Space Marines would have to have been developed more recently after the otherwise reasonably peaceful Imperium could not stop the endless onslaught of the 'Nids.

Starship Troopers: Nope, humanity is at war but its more like a political one not an story of survival yet. Earth is struck but not occupied for example. And that war revolves around an all-volunteer professional force who's highly equipped because that is the best model under which to fight. Presuming you don't just nuke everything from orbit, which is discussed and dealt with in the book. Heinlein was philosophically predicting the post-draft model of the modern US military.

Starcraft: Long accused of being a 40k rip and probably actually is one. However ironically the Terrans are the most divergent in culture and approach of factions, marines are no elites though more accurately to 40k don't save humanity from the Tryanids Zerg. And kinda hard to escape whole default blue hulking power armor and big gun.

Gears of War: Know nothing about. (Its post Halo so it might be ripping Halo)

Aliens: No not even a little. Its not even a real military conflict in that movie its a horror flick set in space where they gave the edible extras guns for extra spice and to make civilian Ripley look badass.

Star Wars: Even remotely less if that were possible, humans versus other species is subtext/subplot at most. Nobody is an alien. The only thing even getting there close would be maybe the Vong of the latter EU.


You really have to make far more sweeping generalizations that are disingenuous to the original material to the text to make this work. Though I'm sure there are perhaps better examples I'd not be suprised if they are more Halocentric then any of these examples.

And seriously Halo is totally not lowest common denominator. Even for not being some sort of genre launch or whatever it is a rather well done story. While it has its weakpoints for sure, most stories particularly of the medium wish they were half as well told as Halo.

Actually my point was to pick some other examples of classic and modern works of fiction that have 'space marines' and demonstrate that Halo has more in common with 40k than any of them in a strikingly meaningful way.

I'll admit, the recent development of the Spartans as a last ditch effort to stem the tide is a unique element to Halo. You're just bringing up an element of Halo that is distinct from 40k, not invalidating all the elements I've just enumerated that are the same. Also to characterize 40k as anything but humanities struggle against the alien would be truly disingenuous. True, it may not be the classic alien invaders, apart from the Nids, but I think that's something that works in its favor. In 40k humanity is threatened by the alien without (Orks, Nids, Necrons, Eldar, etc.) and the alien within (Chaos, Mutation, Heretics, etc.). I'm pretty sure that's even a tagline in the Inquisitors codex somewhere . . .

Also, I give Starcraft a lot of credit, and in fact think they did intentionally what Halo might have done accidentally very much better. I mean, Starcraft more or less started as a 40k simulator, but managed to create space marines and a human federation totally divergent from the source material.

Halo may not have started looking at 40k as source material, but manage to come up with something with more similarities to 40k than any other work of fiction involving space marines vs aliens. That is my point.

And yes, Gears of War definitely ripped of Halo in a lot of ways XD

[An Enemy Spy]

No. It doesn't.
They both have supersoldiers and power armor, and that is the only similarity, unless you're going to start counting things like "it has aliens and is in in space" as taking somwthing from Warhammer.
"Oh, they both have humanity struggling agaisnt aliens, therefore Halo is a ripoff."
Yeah, and U-571 is a ripoff of 20000 Leagues under the sea because they both have submarines.
Seriously, take off the fandom goggles.

[ChaosLord29]

No. It doesn't.
They both have supersoldiers and power armor, and that is the only similarity, unless you're going to start counting things like "it has aliens and is in in space" as taking somwthing from Warhammer.
Seriously, take off the fandom goggles.

Maybe you're right . . .

I suppose I shouldn't make a big deal out of it, it just doesn't sit well with me, and I may have to chalk it up as a matter of taste, and I'm letting my mind try to rationalize my dislike for the game series in weird ways. After all, I have to admit I've rarely had more fun than imagining weird crossovers like the one on page 8 or 9 or whatever where the Halo-verse is really a nacent 40k galaxy.

[jaybird]

I'm sorry, what?

Why did they take their time to glass these worlds? Because they were killing the citizens of said planets so demoralize them, and make the final fact that they were glassing an almost completely forsaken colony hurt that much more. They were also searching for info on the location of Earth, which is always their first target: the bastion of their enemy. It's what the San'Shyuum did to Sanghelios, and it's what that pair did to the rest of the races of the Covenant.

The crystalline projectiles are slow and ineffective to even light armor and will simply bounce off of them.

From the Halo Wiki. Where's your quote on the Covenant's reasoning?

The Covenant is outmatched on every scale of war. Total UNSC losses amounted to 23 billion, over 28 years of war. A billion per YEAR in total casualties, not just military? The Imperium of Man has trillions of citizens on a single Hive World, all of which can and will be conscripted into the Planetary Defense Force. In space? The UNSC Super MACs run just over a kilometre in length. The Imperial Navy's Nova Cannon fires SHELLS hundreds of metres long, and they don't stick with KE penetrators - their shells have an appreciable AoE in a setting where thousands of kilometres is considered knife-fighting range. Finally, there are the Space Marines - if one Master Chief could raise the hell he did canonically, a dozen of them could probably storm High Charity all by themselves.

EDIT: On top of that, there's the Mechanicus, the Inquisition, the Assassins, and the Ecclesiarchy to worry about. Considering that their higher-ranked operatives are every bit the equal of a psychic Master Chief on crack with thousands of years of battle experience...

[ChaosLord29]

From the Halo Wiki. Where's your quote on the Covenant's reasoning?

The Covenant is outmatched on every scale of war. Total UNSC losses amounted to 23 billion, over 28 years of war. A billion per YEAR in total casualties, not just military? The Imperium of Man has trillions of citizens on a single Hive World, all of which can and will be conscripted into the Planetary Defense Force. In space? The UNSC Super MACs run just over a kilometre in length. The Imperial Navy's Nova Cannon fires SHELLS hundreds of metres long, and they don't stick with KE penetrators - their shells have an appreciable AoE in a setting where thousands of kilometres is considered knife-fighting range. Finally, there are the Space Marines - if one Master Chief could raise the hell he did canonically, a dozen of them could probably storm High Charity all by themselves.

A little late man, but hell yes!

[An Enemy Spy]

From the Halo Wiki. Where's your quote on the Covenant's reasoning?

The Covenant is outmatched on every scale of war. Total UNSC losses amounted to 23 billion, over 28 years of war. A billion per YEAR in total casualties, not just military? The Imperium of Man has trillions of citizens on a single Hive World, all of which can and will be conscripted into the Planetary Defense Force. In space? The UNSC Super MACs run just over a kilometre in length. The Imperial Navy's Nova Cannon fires SHELLS hundreds of metres long, and they don't stick with KE penetrators - their shells have an appreciable AoE in a setting where thousands of kilometres is considered knife-fighting range. Finally, there are the Space Marines - if one Master Chief could raise the hell he did canonically, a dozen of them could probably storm High Charity all by themselves.

Not really. The Chief was aided heavily by a Covenant civil war, and a Flood invasion. Also, he wasn't taking on the full might of a Covenant army. He was dealing mainly with a few patrols.

[jaybird]

Not really. The Chief was aided heavily by a Covenant civil war, and a Flood invasion. Also, he wasn't taking on the full might of a Covenant army. He was dealing mainly with a few patrols.

How many Zealots, Ultras, Honor Guard, and Spec Ops does the Covenant have?

[ChaosLord29]

How many Zealots, Ultras, Honor Guard, and Spec Ops does the Covenant have?

Not really the point.

[jaybird]

Not really. The Chief was aided heavily by a Covenant civil war, and a Flood invasion. Also, he wasn't taking on the full might of a Covenant army. He was dealing mainly with a few patrols.

Not really the point.

Sure it was - if he fought proportionally much more of the enemy's elite then would normally be encountered in combat, he wasn't fighting a few patrols, he was fighting crack troops.

[An Enemy Spy]

Sure it was - if he fought proportionally much more of the enemy's elite then would normally be encountered in combat, he wasn't fighting a few patrols, he was fighting crack troops.

Not the full weight of them. He fights what, three honor guards in High Charity? Maybe four Ultras who engaged in a battle with the Jiralhanae?

[ChaosLord29]

Not the full weight of them. He fights what, three honor guards in High Charity? Maybe four Ultras who engaged in a battle with the Jiralhanae?

He still kind of kills all of them . . .

Look, we're getting bogged down in some rather fine points and specifics. The overarching point is that the Imperium has dozens (maybe hundreds) of heroes of Master Chiefs caliber, and a million super soldiers worth a half dozen Spartans.

[An Enemy Spy]

I wasn't even aware this thread was still even about Covenant vs Imperium. Whatever happened to converting the Halo enemies into a 40k army? That was interesting.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Look, we're getting bogged down in some rather fine points and specifics. The overarching point is that the Imperium has dozens (maybe hundreds) of heroes of Master Chiefs caliber, and a million super soldiers worth a half dozen Spartans.

And a million is not enough for a galactic scale.. Actually hard to pick a number, the IG is quite right to call itself countless because that what you need.

It would be better if they were a appreciable percentage of the Imperium's forces as a whole.

But we've been over this

[Triscuitable]

What happened to the other several hundred Spartans?

Oh right, the Covenant killed all of them.

[ChaosLord29]

I wasn't even aware this thread was still even about Covenant vs Imperium. Whatever happened to converting the Halo enemies into a 40k army? That was interesting.

Indeed. Apparently someone felt strongly enough about the issue to bring it back up.

[Misery Esquire]

What happened to the other several hundred Spartans?

Oh right, the Covenant killed all of them.

Uh, only the Spartan IIs could even classify themselves as a "Space Marine" (And inferior to the Astartes in the armour, physical fitness and weapon departments.) type, the IIIs were suicide troopers... and the IVs are Halo 4 material, so I know next to nothing about them.

There were only ever 75 Spartan IIs. And each of them took out a hell of a lot of Covenant (or Rebels) before going down.

[MLai]

@ Tyranid biological basis inefficiency:
Problem with your assessment, Soras, are...

(1) You're basing biological limitations on known Earth examples. Yes, Terran fauna physiology is inadequate compared to a Terran motorcyle. Yes, Terran flora photosynthesis is inadequate compared to a Terran diesel engine. Do you already see the problem?

(2) Little-known Earth examples often surprise us. Things such as tube worms living on geothermal-chemical sources independent of the sun, near toxic fumes and boiling temperatures. Things such as a little shrimp 1-2 inches long whose snapping claw can create a cavitation bubble reaching a flash temperature almost equivalent with the surface of the sun. Crack.com loves to write articles about things like this.

(3) Nid physiology is not contrained by the theory of evolution. Lifeforms on Earth are ultimately limited by what is good enough for suvival on Earth. Evolution actively discourages going overboard on "awesomeness." Even if evolution did encourage going overboard in a few cases, the species' path to awesomeness is still constrained by random chance mutation occurring first, and then being compatible with natural selection second.
Tyranids don't operate by this principle at all. Their mutations aren't random, and their goal is awesomeness in a controlled environment (a battlefield). They want to create a creature that can outrun a motorbike, even if that means the creature burns itself out after 2 years of life; the creature's reproductive fitness in a nautral environment is not their concern. Now repeat this process by millions of years.

There is nothing to say that Nid starships aren't powered by an antimatter drive in a biological casing.

[Tavar]

First off, I'll note that you didn't address the most pressing issue with the Nids, that they violate the laws of Thermodynamics(specifically, at the least not loosing anything in reclamation).

(1) You're basing biological limitations on known Earth examples. Yes, Terran fauna physiology is inadequate compared to a Terran motorcyle. Yes, Terran flora photosynthesis is inadequate compared to a Terran diesel engine. Do you already see the problem?

Yes and no. As a direct comparison it is lacking, but as an exploration of the mechanics and science behind things, it is not. Organic Processes are truly amazing, doing things we can't do in a lab. And Inorganic Processes are truly amazing, doing things our bodies could never do.

This is due to some of the fundamental rules under which each process works: living cells are very temperature sensitive, and thus conditions that are routine in inorganic Processes(say, internal combustion engine) are impractical to run in a organic system. And, the issue is that Internal Combustion is one of the more effective means of energy generation we have availible: much more effective than Cellular Respiration.

Yes, you can handwave it, saying it's space-magic or whatever, but I think that's largely Sora's point: They work the same way the Demons work, Space Magic.

(2) Little-known Earth examples often surprise us. Things such as tube worms living on geothermal-chemical sources independent of the sun, near toxic fumes and boiling temperatures. Things such as a little shrimp 1-2 inches long whose snapping claw can create a cavitation bubble reaching a flash temperature almost equivalent with the surface of the sun. Crack.com loves to write articles about things like this.

This doesn't actually deal with your point.

(3) Nid physiology is not contrained by the theory of evolution. Lifeforms on Earth are ultimately limited by what is good enough for suvival on Earth. Evolution actively discourages going overboard on "awesomeness." Even if evolution did encourage going overboard in a few cases, the species' path to awesomeness is still constrained by random chance mutation occurring first, and then being compatible with natural selection second.
Tyranids don't operate by this principle at all. Their mutations aren't random, and their goal is awesomeness in a controlled environment (a battlefield). They want to create a creature that can outrun a motorbike, even if that means the creature burns itself out after 2 years of life; the creature's reproductive fitness in a nautral environment is not their concern. Now repeat this process by millions of years.

This seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding of what Evolution and Natural Selection is.

But, even taken at face value, with the idea that the Tyranids use completely designed beings, this fails in one major capability: the limits of organic systems. Such systems cannot use the most effective means of energy creation, and combined with other limitations, it means that in certain roles(including many transportation and combat roles), machines are going to be superior, absent rampant levels of space magic.

There is nothing to say that Nid starships aren't powered by an antimatter drive in a biological casing.

Except for the fact that an organic casing couldn't survive such conditions.

[MLai]

@ Tavar:
And your points, which are basically Soras', are what I was disagreeing in the beginning.

This is due to some of the fundamental rules under which each process works: living cells are very temperature sensitive, and thus conditions that are routine in inorganic Processes(say, internal combustion engine) are impractical to run in a organic system. And, the issue is that Internal Combustion is one of the more effective means of energy generation we have availible: much more effective than Cellular Respiration.

I just mentioned tubeworms living near boiling geothermal vents for precisely this reason. No, I'm not saying they can survive inside a jet engine. But this is just a creature on Earth, from natural evolution. I was making the point that you can't just look at Earth fauna/flora in the utopic median of the well-known temperate ecosphere that we live in, and say that's all that organics can do or tolerate.
Scientists seriously consider life as possible under the ice sheets of Europa. By your reasoning that's not even worth considering.

This doesn't actually deal with your point.

It was mainly to reinforce/illustrate what I wrote above. That an organic system can perform functions you wouldn't dream of if just basing your yardstick on bears and lions.

This seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding of what Evolution and Natural Selection is.

Unless you elaborate, I'd think it's the other way around... I'm a graduated biology major.

with the idea that the Tyranids use completely designed beings, this fails in one major capability: the limits of organic systems. Such systems cannot use the most effective means of energy creation, and combined with other limitations, it means that in certain roles(including many transportation and combat roles), machines are going to be superior,

I repeat: You're basing your knowledge of the limits of organic systems on Earth's lifeforms, which proliferated under evolution, a natural process.

Except for the fact that an organic casing couldn't survive such conditions.

(1) Antimatter containment (in the future) will likely depend on an EM field. Even Earth creatures can generate EM fields (just not that strong, ofc).
(2) Some of the strongest materials we manufacture (technologically) are compounds composed of C's and H's. For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_h...t_polyethylene. Who's to say what Nids can make using C's and H's?

Edit: This particular material isn't for heat resistance. I was just using a random example that came to mind. In this case because this material is "in some forms being 15 times more resistant to abrasion than carbon steel."

[Soras Teva Gee]

Tavar gave my response to which I will add "its not absolutely impossible" is NOT an explanation. Its waving a magic wand... because we all know chemistry can do anything amirite? It doesn't tell you how, therefore isn't an explanation.

When in reality things are always more complicated then that. You can't just arbitrarily say have an organism "get stronger" or whatever. Sure to some level, but machines already vastly exceed the performance in whatever they can do. The reality is biology doesn't compete with technology, just in some cases we haven't figured out how to artificially do something yet. Because living things are inherently more complex, and the more complex a system is the harder it is to engineer and improve.

Rolling on four wheels is a fundamentally simpler then coordinating four legs into a balanced rhythm. One you broadly speaking can increase power to and achieve a greater spead, the other you increase the power to and without completely re-engineering it you will *break* it because that power has to be moderated into a proper rhythm. Worse yet this has to be done every time. Worse still increasing the power is a challenge in and of itself because sugar only go so far and only have a finite amount of energy their reactions can release

Now could out there, there be a solution. Sure maaaaaaaybe, but the solution is not "evolution" or whatever its a detailed biology/biochemistry thesis with exactly zero implications for every other justification the 'Nids need. And they need plenty.

And heck we already know the 'Nids CANT be just as bizarre as needed because they eat people. That means that there is the additional challenge of this all being fundamentally compatible with Earth biochemistry. Or the 'Nids would get nothing out of eating planets.