Page 3 of 18 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 525
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yeah, Covenants have Needlers.
    They ignore armor: only shields block them. Without that protection you kaboom.
    Where is that ever demonstrated? I remember suffering needler wounds without shields countless times throughout the Halo series. I mean sure, the UNSC Marines didn't fair as well (I doubt Guardsman would either) but Needler fire doesn't clearly doesn't penetrate the cover provided in game by the terrain (even trees and rocks in a lot of cases).

    In game terms, I would give it an armor penetration value of 4 (at most) which would allow it to penetrate anything just short of Power Armor. So it would tear through any IG troops.

    After some research:
    "The crystalline projectiles are slow and ineffective to even light armor and will simply bounce off of them."
    -From Halo Nation
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Squark's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    It'd probably be more accurate to say that there are hundreds of thousands of guard regiments, and within that multitude there are commanders who favor all sorts of tactics.

    On the topic of the needler- Honestly, from the performance I've seen of it, I'd compare it to a bolter in terms of functionality. It doesn't perform well against vehicular armor or solid cover as I understand, which suggests that the Ceramite coating of a Space Marine's armor would probably stop the needle, althought it would probably penetrate the more lightly armored joints. Guardsmen of course are going to die horribly against it, but then, that's the same thing that happens when they're up against boltguns.

    And terminator armor... Well, terminator armor requires you to have weapons that operate on absurdly high temperatures, Mono-molecular blades or their equivalent, Or, a really, really, really, really fast moving projectile (That is, a proper railgun, which are only used by the Tau and on some Leman Russ variants). Needler crystals are just going to bounce off the armor.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-13 at 03:42 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chess435's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lacey, Washington
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Since the general consensus in that the Covies get stomped, what skulls can the Imperium get away with turning on and still pull out a win?
    ^~Cody T.~^

    "I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Are the properties of the needler ever explained? I always felt like the "If you land six shots it's an instakill, if less it's no damage" thing was always more a gameplay mechanism.
    http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Type-33_G...tions_Launcher

    Needlers cause two types of damage: penetration, injuries caused by the impact of the crystalline needles, and explosive, explosion of needles wedged in the body and splash damage to surrounding units. A crystalline projectile can cause fatal damage to its victim a single shard can cause internal bleeding or strike a vital organ, with untreated wounds resulting in death. Depending on the impact area and angle, several crystalline shards can cause amputation of limbs, and impacts to the chest are in most cases always fatal; the explosive properties can easily crack ribs, damage the lungs or heart, and cause severe tissue damage that can be very difficult to repair.

    Pro:
    Homing (sort of)
    Two types of damage
    Causes internal damage if no kill
    Area damage


    Con:
    Meduim range at most
    Amount of needles to cause explosion changes by game


    The Heavy Needler is a ship to ship needler that will blow up ships (used in Halo Wars).

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tiki Snakes's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Crystal Wasteland

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    The needles always explode, it's just that they explode significantly better after a certain density. Some kind of sympathetic reaction?

    They are also very slow moving, very obvious projectiles.

    edit - Grunt Birthday Party would be amazing.
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-09-13 at 04:07 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Soras Teva Gee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    To your quips regarding bolters being overrated, they are indeed explosive, but they are also rocket propelled. The blasting cap on the rear of the casing of the 'bolt' ignites a miniature rocket which is what accelerates the explosive round out of the barrel and maintains it's flight through the air. They don't lose force the further they travel, until the rocket is expended, and when they impact with something, it's why they keep going rather than simply expending their kinetic energy. That's why 'bolts' have such raw kinetic force, penetrating power, and let's not forget, they explode once they are inside you
    Here's the thing... it doesn't mean all that much. Its not like concepts similar to a bolter don't exist. On the business end it still plays like a super-heavy machine gun, which I DO have a lot of respect for. A giant man carrying a Ma-Deuce on 'roids is a scary thought, but still within certain limits. Bolters don't have the blast radius though for their explosives to take them out of being guns though.

    And now this is more my opinion but the rocket-propelled part... honestly not sure that it should help much beyond extending an accurate range. A normal .50 BMG is serious overkill on penetrating infantry armor so you are already into vehicle armor. That leaves range. Only fun fact I've come across, that the M16 is "less accurate" then some of its predecessor rifles. So what gives USA? Well the military took a look and realized that when it comes down to it infantry hardly ever engages at more then a couple hundred meters. Ergo all that extra "accurate to X distance" is a non-issue for an assault rifle.

    Now let me be clear I don't entirely disparage the bolter. It makes sense as a weapon for super-heavy infantry which is a niche modern militaries don't have. But its not the war changing unbeatable death machine its hype would leave you to believe either.


    Air support is rare in actual gameplay, but in the books, video games, and other sources it's pretty well documented that any IG or Space Marine force is going to have tactical air support as well (there's even an official minigame released by White Dwarf on conducting air battles). There's rules for flyers for almost every race, it's just that people don't generally use them (rarely legal in tournament play) because they're expensive and the whole point of the game is you are commanding the ground forces.
    Yeah I've looked around and while I don't dispute it exists, I make the important distinction is does not come standard. Its still the minority case.

    Mind you I perfectly understand the exclusion, actual air power is just patently unfair to ground forces. And would make for a boring mechanic as it would be something like every 1d6 rounds remove one enemy vehicle or formation from the field.

    And its not like 40k is alone in this most military themed settings handwave airpower.

    Not that the Halo flyers are particuarly impressive either. Banshees remind me more of WWI Biplanes than any sort of impressive aerial combat craft, and Hornets definitely leave something lacking where speed is concerned. They seem like the anologue of 40k Skimmers (which admittedly, only Space Marines have access to), but a couple of Thunderhawk Gunships and Landspeeders should be more than a match for any force of Banshees and Covvie aircraft.
    Oh I agree. A Banshee is not an aircraft, its an armed motorcycle like the Ghost. It maybe has the slightest case for there being things we don't see (like fighting versions of drop ships) in universe, but I don't know them.

    In general Covenant vehicles are still why they loose. Which we can probably blame on Halo being generally an FPS. Actual vehicles render infantry not... irrelevant... but suddenly limited to only certain terrain and tactics. A Warthog is probably about the only thing loosely well portrayed in the Halo games.
    But there is range in spaced based on how well you can create a containment field for your Plasma Projectiles or a confinement beam for your other particle projection based weaponry. Otherwise they'll just disperse into space after a set amount of time.
    Is that official somewhere or just speculation? Either way it is arguably a little silly from a physics perspective. In a vacuum there are after all fewer immediate causes for entropy.

    Not nessecarily untrue mind you.

    I just as a general rule keep my comparisons for space battles far more open-ended. I tend to file off ranges because they really, really, really shouldn't mean much in space and file off depiction as artistic license. Unless there's some good reason otherwise. If you can shoot from orbit to a planets surface without your weapons breaking down from the atmosphere, you should be able to achieve actual astronomical ranges, which makes a mere difference of thirty thousand... not all that meaningful.

    I need a particular reason to limit ranges in space, namely that the writers actually had a sense of scale and specifically accounted for it in limiting ranges.

    Covenant ships are used to a smaller engagement range because they are smaller ships. Maybe if they built ships or had the technology to enhance the range of their energy based weapons they would build them bigger.
    I unfortunately don't think you can understand how scale doesn't mean much naval combat without actually looking at an Arleigh Burke next to a container or cruise ship. Even super-carriers don't have that sort of bulk to them.

    Imperial ships? Imperial ships are big because they need a thousand slaves to drag the mammoth shells into the cannons to reload them. Or something like that. They are big because there is one thing the Imperium never, ever, never has been and that is efficient.

    Now the Necrons, they have the right idea. (Unless their ships have been retconned too now)


    but in terms of using what technology they have available to them, they put both the UNSC and the Covenant to shame.
    Which is a testament to the Dark Age of Technology and nothing else. The Imperium reflects really the Emperor's own condition. By all sane measures it is dead, we're just waiting for the life signs to cease.
    There's a reason that Lasguns are referred to in genre as 'flashlights'.
    Which is quite sensible really. However I was referring to the heavier weapons starting with plasma grenades and Jackal snipers.


    What about psykers though? Are the Covenant in any way prepared for the psychic assault of a Librarian or an Inquisitorial Sanctioned Psyker? Given that they're a brand new and pretty significant xenos threat you can bet their will be a cadre from the Ordo Xenos on the scene with all due haste and that they'll have some psykers with them. Imagine if the Prophets quasi religious control over Covenant forces could be overturned by psykers who display real spiritual power. Might spark the Sangheii to rebel all over again.
    No but like most of the far end things I tend to go with it not being numerous enough to matter. While it gets into true opinion I tend thing the PDFs and the IG do all the real work of the Imperium. The rest is so much propaganda.

    So the real thing that matters is the weakness of displayed vehicles, the question of numbers, and the space end of things. These are what matters.

    Realized I forgot to mention that putting aside direct conflicts on the offense a reasonably decent commander could run rings around the Imperium with superior FTL. There's one battlefleet, strike the ten planets its NOT around and force the fleet to spend all its time in the Warp or destroy the barely functional logistics of the Imperium by glassing agricultural worlds and the like.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    The Covenant also has fairly widespread use of cloaking devices, and energy blades that are insta-gibs. A large group of elites or brutes who are all invisibled up could do horrific things to the enemy, like setting mines in their encampments or killing every officer in the imperial guard (which if I recall does a great job teaching their troops not to think for themselves).

    The other covenant troops are going to be fairly useless; I would suggest a series of holding actions and ambushes until the imperial guard has been decimated by your assassin squads.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    shadow_archmagi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Earth... sort of.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The Covenant also has fairly widespread use of cloaking devices, and energy blades that are insta-gibs. A large group of elites or brutes who are all invisibled up could do horrific things to the enemy, like setting mines in their encampments or killing every officer in the imperial guard (which if I recall does a great job teaching their troops not to think for themselves).

    The other covenant troops are going to be fairly useless; I would suggest a series of holding actions and ambushes until the imperial guard has been decimated by your assassin squads.
    To be fair, Power Swords are comparable to Energy Blades.
    Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
    MOVIE NIGHTS AND LETS PLAYS LIVESTREAMED

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Cloaking devices are far from unknown for the Imperium, though - that's what Auspexes are for, typically one to a squad, since as mentioned Covenant cloaking is primarily or solely in the optical spectrum. So they're beneficial, but far from beatable, and it is absolutely within Imperial tactical doctrine to send in a few squads to an area where people are dying to invisible enemies, get the invisible enemies busy butchering Guardsmen, then call down a full artillery barrage on the area.

    And yeah, energy blades are pretty much the same as power weapons, both in visual/technical functionality and the fact that they're logically instant death if you get stabbed with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kinslayer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    and it is absolutely within Imperial tactical doctrine to send in a few squads to an area where people are dying to invisible enemies, get the invisible enemies busy butchering Guardsmen, then call down a full artillery barrage on the area.
    It's always so convient when your doctrine includes a section on "The Best Ways To Kill Your Own Troops, And Benefit."
    Rowe's Rule: the odds are five to six that the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Type-33_G...tions_Launcher

    Needlers cause two types of damage: penetration, injuries caused by the impact of the crystalline needles, and explosive, explosion of needles wedged in the body and splash damage to surrounding units. A crystalline projectile can cause fatal damage to its victim a single shard can cause internal bleeding or strike a vital organ, with untreated wounds resulting in death. Depending on the impact area and angle, several crystalline shards can cause amputation of limbs, and impacts to the chest are in most cases always fatal; the explosive properties can easily crack ribs, damage the lungs or heart, and cause severe tissue damage that can be very difficult to repair.

    Pro:
    Homing (sort of)
    Two types of damage
    Causes internal damage if no kill
    Area damage


    Con:
    Meduim range at most
    Amount of needles to cause explosion changes by game


    The Heavy Needler is a ship to ship needler that will blow up ships (used in Halo Wars).
    Your quoting from the same page I am friend, and that page clearly stated:
    "The crystalline projectiles are slow and ineffective to even light armor and will simply bounce off of them. The Needler is also limited to medium range combat situations and even at that range is not as effective, as the projectile travels it loses velocity and thus loses altitude, reducing the chances of impacting a target."

    The point being that while the Needler is very effective at decimating soft targets, flesh and causing lots of collateral damage, they are generally, totally ineffectual at anything more than medium range, have very limited 'punch' or stopping power and do not fair well against even a lightly armored target.

    The standard for Space Marines is a hulking 8ft behemoth in power armor that puts even Spartan II armor to shame:
    "It is a completely enclosed suit of combat armour composed of shaped Adamantium and Plasteel plates, encased in a Ceramite ablative layer."
    -http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Armour

    @Sorvas Teva Gee
    Is that official somewhere or just speculation? Either way it is arguably a little silly from a physics perspective. In a vacuum there are after all fewer immediate causes for entropy.

    Not nessecarily untrue mind you.

    I just as a general rule keep my comparisons for space battles far more open-ended. I tend to file off ranges because they really, really, really shouldn't mean much in space and file off depiction as artistic license. Unless there's some good reason otherwise. If you can shoot from orbit to a planets surface without your weapons breaking down from the atmosphere, you should be able to achieve actual astronomical ranges, which makes a mere difference of thirty thousand... not all that meaningful.

    I need a particular reason to limit ranges in space, namely that the writers actually had a sense of scale and specifically accounted for it in limiting ranges.
    That one I may have to give you, in 40k I think they have a somewhat better understanding of the astronomical ranges possible in actual space combat, whereas in halo, I'm pretty sure it's just a convenience thing.

    The only thing I can think of is that Covenant Plasma weapons don't actually travel at light speeds, and maybe the effective range of their weapons is depicted as such because any further and their targeting capabilities would not be nearly so effective (after all, the further away a target is, the more maneuvering options they have). This would be moot against the large IoM Capital ships since they make exceptionally large targets. It was however pointed out that these ships are built to withstand a whole different scale of punishment than Covenant ships.

    I unfortunately don't think you can understand how scale doesn't mean much naval combat without actually looking at an Arleigh Burke next to a container or cruise ship. Even super-carriers don't have that sort of bulk to them.

    Imperial ships? Imperial ships are big because they need a thousand slaves to drag the mammoth shells into the cannons to reload them. Or something like that. They are big because there is one thing the Imperium never, ever, never has been and that is efficient.

    Now the Necrons, they have the right idea. (Unless their ships have been retconned too now)
    Afraid they mostly have friend. The old days of small piratey necron raiders are long gone. They're still have them, but they're not nearly as powerful and instead they rely on lumbering Tomb Ship/Planet/Hulks which make even Imperial Capital ships look downright agile.

    Realized I forgot to mention that putting aside direct conflicts on the offense a reasonably decent commander could run rings around the Imperium with superior FTL. There's one battlefleet, strike the ten planets its NOT around and force the fleet to spend all its time in the Warp or destroy the barely functional logistics of the Imperium by glassing agricultural worlds and the like.
    Now that is an exceptionally viable strategy, but involves factoring in a new meta level into our consideration. Are the Covenant likely to think of it? Or will their zealous and doctrinal nature cause them to take a more conventional approach, ultimately doomed to failure.

    I tend to think to that while they could cause a lot of destruction this way, they just don't have the staying power to be a real threat to the Imperium, and eventually High Charity is going to find itself looking down the business end of a Space Marine Battlebarge with the assembled might of an entire Chapter of Space Marines hell bent on purging every trace of this xenos threat from existence. I think the consensus is that a Terminator Company could do just that too.

    @tvtyrant
    The Covenant also has fairly widespread use of cloaking devices, and energy blades that are insta-gibs. A large group of elites or brutes who are all invisibled up could do horrific things to the enemy, like setting mines in their encampments or killing every officer in the imperial guard (which if I recall does a great job teaching their troops not to think for themselves).
    I'm afraid that in 40k energy blades (called power weapons) are vastly more widespread than in the Halo franchise. They operate in very much the same manner, and you can expect even IG sergeants and lieutenants to be walking around waving them them encouragingly. I'll give you that if they are comparable, they'll scythe right through Space Marine armor, but the problem is that for every Zealot armed with an Energy Sword you've got 3-5 Imperial troops with the same deal (at least a number of whom are going to be Astartes).

    As for the Active Camouflage units . . . well I suppose it's already been covered. They're nothing new to the Imperium, even if they can't (readily) replicate the technology, and every guard platoon and Space Marine company is going to have more than a few ways of combating such tactics on the battlefield.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-13 at 06:47 PM.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Urist's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Any discussion of ground tactics is rather redundant. The IoM basic scout cruisers could tank entire fleets of Covenant ships fire, and murder them in return. A single lance shot would core even a Supercarrier. I love Halo, and I love the Covenant to death, but this is just cruel.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    Any discussion of ground tactics is rather redundant. The IoM basic scout cruisers could tank entire fleets of Covenant ships fire, and murder them in return. A single lance shot would core even a Supercarrier. I love Halo, and I love the Covenant to death, but this is just cruel.
    I'm rather of the same opinion and haven't seen sufficient evidence offered in response to think otherwise.

    I bet a Covenant fleet might be able to outmaneuver them (and FTL wise they're much handier), but eventually they're going to have to get within range of the Imperial's broadside and then they're going to be shredded. Or else, pass in front of their prow Lance batteries and then be incinerated.

    I mean the Lance Battery on a standard IoM Ship of the Line is about as big as a small covenant Frigate!
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Your quoting from the same page I am friend, and that page clearly stated:
    "The crystalline projectiles are slow and ineffective to even light armor and will simply bounce off of them.
    Taking that quote in context, though, it's clearly talking about how bad they are against vehicles, so 'light armor' doesn't appear to mean the same thing. Now, this doesn't change the fact that Space Marines would almost certainly be needler-proof, since they are encased in ceramite which is at least as physically tough as light vehicle armor, but needlers would do a painful number on rank-and-file Guardsmen in their flak vests, despite that also being 'light armor'.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Taking that quote in context, though, it's clearly talking about how bad they are against vehicles, so 'light armor' doesn't appear to mean the same thing. Now, this doesn't change the fact that Space Marines would almost certainly be needler-proof, since they are encased in ceramite which is at least as physically tough as light vehicle armor, but needlers would do a painful number on rank-and-file Guardsmen in their flak vests, despite that also being 'light armor'.
    Agreed, I suppose the overall point I was trying to make is that Space Marines are wearing something a little heavier than 'Light Armor' even if you're talking about vehicle plating.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Agreed, I suppose the overall point I was trying to make is that Space Marines are wearing something a little heavier than 'Light Armor' even if you're talking about vehicle plating.
    Maybe, maybe not - bolters are the go-to weapon for actually injuring a Space Marine, and they're also the minimum-grade weapon for causing noticeable damage to light vehicles in-setting, even discounting game mechanics (which also match up, if not quite as well). So while it's possible that Marine armor is heavier than 'light vehicle armor', that's the minimum level it'd apply as.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Maybe, maybe not - bolters are the go-to weapon for actually injuring a Space Marine, and they're also the minimum-grade weapon for causing noticeable damage to light vehicles in-setting, even discounting game mechanics (which also match up, if not quite as well). So while it's possible that Marine armor is heavier than 'light vehicle armor', that's the minimum level it'd apply as.
    Right, but for the Bolter that's a function of both it's rocket propelled stopping power and it's explosive payload. The Needler projectiles can be tracked by the naked eye and even avoided with basic human agility and a little luck. Their greatest advantages are their homing capability and the fact that they are in fact needles, and penetrate armor akin to the way flechette ammunition does, and cause internal damage like a knife or a blade, rather than a bullet (also they have their own explosive capacity).

    What if we actually did put this into 40k game mechanic terms?

    The Needler is a medium range rapid fire with a somewhat limited clip size. It's not relatively ineffective against vehicle grade armor, doesn't punch so much as it stabs and has the capacity to kill most mansized targets with a combined payload.

    I'd say it's an 18" Strength 4 AP 6 Assault 1 weapon which can reroll to hit rolls within 12" and automatically wounds any target or glances any vehicles on a roll of 6.

    Is that fair?
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    If my military was that outclassed in attack output, I would simply have my ships come out of FTL within atmosphere and have the fusion reactor go off in atmosphere. At least in the books the Halo cores are capable of shattering a planet, which would pretty much finish of the imperium's manufacturing.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kinslayer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    If my military was that outclassed in attack output, I would simply have my ships come out of FTL within atmosphere and have the fusion reactor go off in atmosphere. At least in the books the Halo cores are capable of shattering a planet, which would pretty much finish of the imperium's manufacturing.
    Except, the Covenant have no way to find human worlds in the Haloverse, and have to try and steal Human Stellar Cartography computer data to find them at a decent rate. The IoM... Well, I don't know if they even have anything written down, or if they just colour in big chunks of the galactic map where the Navigators say they are.

    Plus, the Imperium has a hell of a lot of Forge Worlds. Less than the Covenant has ships, but still a few thousand at least. And Forge Worlds have the most powerful defences that the AdMech can rig up around them, including filling the entire gravity well with smart mines, giant doom lasers, and AdMech ships. The Covenant Ships, after commiting a Slipspace Jump are entirely offline and defenceless if they do it intrasystem, and not accurate enough if they try to interstellar-ly jump into a Planet Atmosphere.
    Rowe's Rule: the odds are five to six that the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    If my military was that outclassed in attack output, I would simply have my ships come out of FTL within atmosphere and have the fusion reactor go off in atmosphere. At least in the books the Halo cores are capable of shattering a planet, which would pretty much finish of the imperium's manufacturing.
    Except every Imperial Forgeworld and manufacturing centers are the singularly best protected planets in the Imperium.

    It's not like Reach where the Covenant can just overwhelm the UNSC military stronghold and base of operations by sheer numbers (a tactic that cost them a third of their fleet). You'd have carve your way through outlying sectors, defeat whatever counterattack was launched (Obviously a combined force of several sectors' Battlefleets plus IG Regiments and at that point likely support from a Chapter of Space Marines) and the punch a hole through the real defenses of the Imperium. That means getting past fortress worlds and battling multiple Space Marine Chapters not to mention the combined might of the most decorated and elite IG Regiments in the Galaxy.

    Even the Forge Worlds themselves are fortresses in their own rights. They also happen to be the headquarters of the Adeptus Titanicus, the Imperial Titan Legions, so even if they haven't face Titans yet, you can bet they'll be facing down a whole Legion if they arrive.

    Not likely.

    I think Soras had the best plan:
    Realized I forgot to mention that putting aside direct conflicts on the offense a reasonably decent commander could run rings around the Imperium with superior FTL. There's one battlefleet, strike the ten planets its NOT around and force the fleet to spend all its time in the Warp or destroy the barely functional logistics of the Imperium by glassing agricultural worlds and the like.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WitchSlayer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Yes but that requires knowing what planets are well armed enough and which aren't, also knowing which ones are agricultural planets, which aren't forge worlds, which aren't Space Marine worlds etc etc

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    Yes but that requires knowing what planets are well armed enough and which aren't, also knowing which ones are agricultural planets, which aren't forge worlds, which aren't Space Marine worlds etc etc
    agreed. Plus most systems also have some sort of System only fleet of a few frigates. Really only a delay against 40K opponents but against the Covenant it would mean fighting even the weakest world would be costly in terms of ships.
    In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.


    Thanks to Elder Tsofu for my new Lancer Avatar

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    Yes but that requires knowing what planets are well armed enough and which aren't, also knowing which ones are agricultural planets, which aren't forge worlds, which aren't Space Marine worlds etc etc
    And knowing ahead of time which planets the battlefleet isn't at. This is a relatively minor difficulty, since their superior speed can also be used for scouting and rapid retreat if they guess wrong, but still an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Oh and it does nothing to prevent a counter attack from the Imperium.
    In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.


    Thanks to Elder Tsofu for my new Lancer Avatar

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Oh and it does nothing to prevent a counter attack from the Imperium.
    It would only help them in terms of retreat, and it's worth noting that Covenant ships are more or less in a state of unpreparedness once they've finished a slipspace jump. Imperial Ships are disoriented, but can finish a Warp Jump at full battle stations, guns loaded and shields up.

    Then there's High Carity itself, which does not boast a comparable FTL and sublight speed maneuverability. Assuming the Imperials manage to follow a Covenant ship back to it at any point, I'd say we're looking at the Terminator Company teleporting into the High Council scenario outlined earlier.

    Obviously not right into a meeting or anything, but the point is, less than all the Prophets are likely to survive the experience.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-13 at 11:17 PM.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Klose_the_Sith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A Fine Shanty Town
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Similar to this topic, are there any serious attempts at chronicling operation numbers the Imperial Guard will deploy in? I recognise that the PDF are the most numerous, but so many people seem happy to tell me that 10,000 or 20,000 will be enough to go pacify a planet which is incredibly ridiculous. That many Space Marines wouldn't pacify an earth-sized planet, let alone a Hive World or similar.

    What sort of numbers do Imperial Guard actually deploy in? Because even sending 10,000,000 soldiers isn't impressive if waging total war on a galactic scale.
    *Splendid Goatatar by that cool kid Serpentine
    "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world"

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ChaosLord29's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Klose_the_Sith View Post
    Similar to this topic, are there any serious attempts at chronicling operation numbers the Imperial Guard will deploy in? I recognise that the PDF are the most numerous, but so many people seem happy to tell me that 10,000 or 20,000 will be enough to go pacify a planet which is incredibly ridiculous. That many Space Marines wouldn't pacify an earth-sized planet, let alone a Hive World or similar.

    What sort of numbers do Imperial Guard actually deploy in? Because even sending 10,000,000 soldiers isn't impressive if waging total war on a galactic scale.
    This is from Lexicanum which in turn cites the 5th Edition Rulebook:
    "The size and composition of Imperial Guard regiments is not standardised across the Imperium; the number of individual Guardsmen alone can vary enormously between regiments, with some only a few hundred strong at founding-strength, whilst others possess tens of thousands of fighting troops.1 The root of this non-standardisation is the fact that every world that produces Imperial Guard regiments has its own martial traditions, practices and experiences which all combine to dictate the manner in which its inhabitants choose to wage war."

    I know in Storm of Iron, the Jouran Dragoons are defending a citadel containing Space Marine gene seed, and their forces numbered upwards of half a million (plus a Titan Legion and Adeptus Mechanicus support staff).

    Suffice to say that it depends on the planet they are raised on, and the need for their raising and deployment. Say you had a planet like earth, with about 7 Billion, and instituted a regular draft with every able bodied man and woman on the planet as candidates; Approximately how many soldiers would that be, do you think?

    I don't think it's unfair to assume a 'standard' infantry IG Regiment raised from a populated and 'civilized' world for the purpose of combating a major alien menace would total upwards of hundreds of thousands of soldiers, assuming the Planetary Governors and Sector Commanders deemed such numbers necessary.

    Of course, what's more likely is that they will simply deploy several other IG Regiments that have already been raised that total around those same numbers.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
    • My monk's lips must be in sync.
    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Northern Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    Yes but that requires knowing what planets are well armed enough and which aren't, also knowing which ones are agricultural planets, which aren't forge worlds, which aren't Space Marine worlds etc etc
    True, but when your only advantage is a superior speed, the best thing you can do is a hit-and-run tactic, against the weak points. And if the point isn't weak, just run.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books

    Avatar removed, work in progress...

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Soras Teva Gee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Did some poking and if this is accurate:

    The Covenant have a very finely tuned version of this technology, far superior to the UNSC Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine. Instead of simply tearing a hole into Slipspace, Covenant Slipspace drives cut a very fine hole in the fabric of space-time and slips into Slipspace with precision (much like a scalpel compared to a butcher knife). It exits with the same pinpoint accuracy, takes less time during travel, and is able to plot a course with error not exceeding an atom. This is why in battle Covenant ships are able to slip by human defenses by using slipspace. Standard Covenant tactics include using short Slipstream jumps to gain positional advantage and surprise other ships, in addition to avoiding incoming ordnance. The Covenant's superiority in drive technology (combined with differing weapon technology) allows a small number of Covenant ships to effectively engage a much larger UNSC force. Missiles, especially, can be defeated by a brief Slipstream jump, as they cannot track through Slipstream space.
    I'm now going with the Imperium being screwed in space save by weight of numbers committed.

    At least without some kind of verifiable massive advantage. Both factions are capable of orbital strikes, what does the Imperium have that puts them on a higher scale? It needs to be pretty big seeing as I'm getting numbers in the hundreds for individual Covenant fleets. Sure the Imperium has more but short of Holy Terra where do they them with that density?


    EDIT: Also fun fact apparently Covenant ships are as big to even bigger then Imperium ones. Apparently Covenant supercarriers go up to 28 kilometers in length, while the battleships of the Imperium are pegged at 8 kilometers.
    Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-09-14 at 02:28 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WitchSlayer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location

    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    True, but when your only advantage is a superior speed, the best thing you can do is a hit-and-run tactic, against the weak points. And if the point isn't weak, just run.
    Ah, but the covenant ships are out of comission shorty after jumping. Thus you can't immediately run.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •