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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Assuming the Imperials manage to follow a Covenant ship back to it at any point, I'd say we're looking at the Terminator Company teleporting into the High Council scenario outlined earlier.
    That's assuming an Inquisitor or some other psyker doesn't do a reading of the Imperial Tarot and says "they are here".

    With regard to defences, does the Halo-verse have ground based anti-orbital defences? A quick check on the wiki indicates they have space stations, but 40K also has signifiant ground based defences (the Space Marine game has a good example of one) that's powerful enough and has sufficient range to prevent Imperial ships from getting close enough to bombard it or start large scale landing of reinforcements.

    I'm also fairly sure the larger titans also double well as anti-orbital weapon platforms.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    EDIT: Also fun fact apparently Covenant ships are as big to even bigger then Imperium ones. Apparently Covenant supercarriers go up to 28 kilometers in length, while the battleships of the Imperium are pegged at 8 kilometers.
    We already checked this one, the Covvie Supercarrier at 28km is more of an anomaly, with the rest of thier CSS-Cruisers (The larger battlecruisers) being 1.8km, thier Assault Carriers 5.1km, and everything else is smaller.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Did some poking and if this is accurate:



    I'm now going with the Imperium being screwed in space save by weight of numbers committed.
    The problem is the durability difference. The general consensus is that most Imperial ships can take the initial salvo from a Covenant ship, but the same can't be said of the covenant. Given that the Covenant ship, after jumping in and firing it's weapons, can't use it's drive again for at least a small amount of time, there's a very good chance you're left in range of the ship's broadsides or lance batteries long enough for them to fire.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Did some poking and if this is accurate:



    I'm now going with the Imperium being screwed in space save by weight of numbers committed.

    At least without some kind of verifiable massive advantage. Both factions are capable of orbital strikes, what does the Imperium have that puts them on a higher scale? It needs to be pretty big seeing as I'm getting numbers in the hundreds for individual Covenant fleets. Sure the Imperium has more but short of Holy Terra where do they them with that density?


    EDIT: Also fun fact apparently Covenant ships are as big to even bigger then Imperium ones. Apparently Covenant supercarriers go up to 28 kilometers in length, while the battleships of the Imperium are pegged at 8 kilometers.
    A lot of those facts seem to conflict with the other information in the series, particularly what you see in the video games and at least what I have read from the novels (Fall of Reach, Halo, The Flood). Not once during the Battle of Reach or any of the other space battles described do the Covenant use slipspace jumps to evade UNSC Missiles, and they make it very clear that after Slipstream jumps ships are more or less vulnerable while their primary combat systems power up (even the Covenant, though somewhat less so than the UNSC).

    This is somewhat distressing as the cited source in the article is a book by the same author who wrote Fall of Reach! The exact same source I am relying upon for my knowledge of Space Travel and combat in Halo.

    It seems that Supercarriers are indeed larger than anything save Imperial Orbital Defense Platforms or Ramiles Class Starforts (which are roughly the size of High Charity itself).

    Now, I can't presume that a Starfort would indeed be deployed at any time during the conflict, since they are fairly rare, but it is safe to say that if the Covenant do attempt to a massive invasion of any well defended Imperial Sector, they will be facing the full might of the Imperial Navy that can be deployed against them. That means Space Marine Battle Barges, Emperor Class Battleships, and almost certainly a Starfort (especially if they choose to engage a Forge World or other Adeptus Mechanicus Planets).

    I believe this is once again though a moot point, since we've established a boarding party of Terminators would more than likely cripple or outright destroy any Covenant Craft they boarded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    That's assuming an Inquisitor or some other psyker doesn't do a reading of the Imperial Tarot and says "they are here".

    With regard to defences, does the Halo-verse have ground based anti-orbital defences? A quick check on the wiki indicates they have space stations, but 40K also has signifiant ground based defences (the Space Marine game has a good example of one) that's powerful enough and has sufficient range to prevent Imperial ships from getting close enough to bombard it or start large scale landing of reinforcements.

    I'm also fairly sure the larger titans also double well as anti-orbital weapon platforms.
    Both excellent points.

    If I recall, one of the primary advantages the Covenant have against the UNSC is that they could strike without warning by jumping in past UNSC defenses unpredictably (in part because they were more interested in Forerunner technology and artifacts). Any significant engagement by the Covenant is likely to be predicted by Imperial Psykers (Like Hive Fleet Leviathan, or the Black Crusades, or any number of Ork Waaaghs).

    And you're absolutely right, any Imperial World of sufficient development is going to have planetary defenses capable of targeting orbiting space craft. Laser Canon Batteries, Orbital Missile Launchers, the whole shabang of the larger and badder Imperial arsenal (including Titans) is going to be directed upward towards any Covenant Craft who even thinks about trying to glass a Forge World.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 01:22 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    As I pointed out earlier, the slipstream makes orbital defenses null if you are running suicide attacks. Mines in the atmosphere do not matter, since you are going to reappear in the atmosphere itself. You could jump out 2ft above the ground if you didn't mind just crashing, but it would be better to drop out about a mile up and go off like a sun.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    As I pointed out earlier, the slipstream makes orbital defenses null if you are running suicide attacks. Mines in the atmosphere do not matter, since you are going to reappear in the atmosphere itself. You could jump out 2ft above the ground if you didn't mind just crashing, but it would be better to drop out about a mile up and go off like a sun.
    Well, if the Covenant use their entire fleet up in suicide attacks, it's not going to be much use to their long term victory is it?

    And as I pointed out, any suicide attack against a worthwhile target would require a campaign in and of itself. So you'd have to expend all the resources you normally would on a planetary invasion, only to lose one of your ships in the process and have less than nothing to show for it, since to really cripple a sector you're going to have to destroy more than a few of these worlds.

    And then, once you have demonstrated this willingness and ability to destroy Forge worlds with suicide runs, you can damn well bet the Covenant are going to be upgraded to an Alpha or Beta Threat level, and the destruction of the Covenant will now take precedent above everything but the forces of Chaos themselves.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    As I pointed out earlier, the slipstream makes orbital defenses null if you are running suicide attacks. Mines in the atmosphere do not matter, since you are going to reappear in the atmosphere itself. You could jump out 2ft above the ground if you didn't mind just crashing, but it would be better to drop out about a mile up and go off like a sun.
    Has the Covenant ever used suicide attacks like this in Halo? I'm not aware of any instance in the games that they've sacrificed ships like this.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Has the Covenant ever used suicide attacks like this in Halo? I'm not aware of any instance in the games that they've sacrificed ships like this.
    I believe there are cases where Covenant Cruisers and Assault craft had made suicide runs, and they are after all, religious zealots so if the Prophets ordered them to, it's likely they would.

    The thing is, it was rarely if ever necessary against the UNSC, and the overarching point is that it really doesn't serve their long term goal if what they need to do is defeat the Imperium. Sacrificing ships is only worthwhile if you have a logistical advantage over your opponent, and we know very well that the Covenant do not.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 02:04 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    The Covenant was always winning in Halo, so them not using it while they are crushing a significantly weaker species is hardly evidence of their willingness to. Then they had a major civil war and the flood incursion, and at the end of that the series is over. We have no idea what a desperate covenant would have looked like, because it fell apart from the inside.

    And if the options are being obliterated by enemy ships to no end, or being obliterated while taking out enemy planets, I would take the latter. You are going to lose this war and probably go extinct anyways, you might as well cripple the enemy while doing it.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    The problem is if they didn't use it much, we don't have the material to study, and therefore can't get a clear analysis. Most Imperial defenses need to be concentrated fairly close to a planet (Because 40k authors have a slightly better concept of how large a solar system is that some authors, so defenses in a static orbit need to be in such a place that they can't be bypassed simply by taking a day to go above them). On the other hand, enemies who can sneak up on them aren't totally unknown- Eldar (Both varieties) and Necrons (new fluff)* can both use the webway to pop up unexpectedly, and their vessels tend to actually have something vaguely capable of stealth (Such that if you know the vessel is there, you can track it, but difficult to spot if you don't know what to look for). So, it's not unreasonable to assume the Imperium does have defenses against forces that can surprise them.

    So the primary question is how close can a covenant suicide ship get to an Imperial planet undetected; Within a planet's gravity well? Within a planet's outer atmosphere? Inner atmosphere?


    *The old fluff for necron space vehicles had them stay in the material universe during FTL by making their ships inertia-less, which, combined with the fact that their ships had a negligible power signature when not firing weapons, made them by far the stealthiest of the 40k factions in space. The new codex instead says the Necrons eventually managed to create their own webway portals, removing the Old One's primary advantage. It doesn't say anything about Necron ship classes anymore, so in the absence of new data, it makes the most sense to assume necron ships still have roughly the same stealth, weapons, and self-repair capability they used to.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-14 at 02:14 PM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The Covenant was always winning in Halo, so them not using it while they are crushing a significantly weaker species is hardly evidence of their willingness to. Then they had a major civil war and the flood incursion, and at the end of that the series is over. We have no idea what a desperate covenant would have looked like, because it fell apart from the inside.

    And if the options are being obliterated by enemy ships to no end, or being obliterated while taking out enemy planets, I would take the latter. You are going to lose this war and probably go extinct anyways, you might as well cripple the enemy while doing it.
    I think we're in perfect agreement then. The Covenant loses but they make the Imperium potentially pay for it with suicide attacks.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    A lot of those facts seem to conflict with the other information in the series, particularly what you see in the video games and at least what I have read from the novels (Fall of Reach, Halo, The Flood). Not once during the Battle of Reach or any of the other space battles described do the Covenant use slipspace jumps to evade UNSC Missiles, and they make it very clear that after Slipstream jumps ships are more or less vulnerable while their primary combat systems power up (even the Covenant, though somewhat less so than the UNSC).

    This is somewhat distressing as the cited source in the article is a book by the same author who wrote Fall of Reach! The exact same source I am relying upon for my knowledge of Space Travel and combat in Halo.
    Well they apparently even got a UNSC ship jump inside High Charity. So the precision is clearly there.

    Now what exactly establishes this vulnerability? Because I went to that article looking for it specifically and didn't find it. This makes me suspicous of the claim and wondering about the context. For example a Covenant ship coming out into an ambush wouldn't be ready to fight for reasons that have nothing to do with Slipstream systems.

    Now, I can't presume that a Starfort would indeed be deployed at any time during the conflict, since they are fairly rare, but it is safe to say that if the Covenant do attempt to a massive invasion of any well defended Imperial Sector, they will be facing the full might of the Imperial Navy that can be deployed against them. That means Space Marine Battle Barges, Emperor Class Battleships, and almost certainly a Starfort (especially if they choose to engage a Forge World or other Adeptus Mechanicus Planets).
    Its significant that the Battleships themselves are considered pretty rare themselves. Likewise you would expect one or maybe two Battle Barges in an entire campaign. And by every indication I'm getting you don't need the Imperium to be simply comparable you need them to be seriously better because the Covenant fields fleets in the hundreds as a matter of course so they will have weight of numbers.

    Sure in theory the Imperium has unlimited resources so could have a big a fleet as it ever wants... but that would require years of coordination. Even massing what they have takes weeks where not months for just parts of the galaxy depending on how many evil-o's the Warp had for breakfast. Now some places yeah, but I'm not exactly putting sacking Terra and Mars as the threshold for Covenant victory either. If they can in essence become another full fledged faction of 40k then that's victory enough.

    At present the only reason I can see Imperial aggression holding up is a vast gap in raw power and durablity... which I'm not seeing the justification for other then the same old blind assumption that everything 40k is automatically a 1000 times more epic.

    I believe this is once again though a moot point, since we've established a boarding party of Terminators would more than likely cripple or outright destroy any Covenant Craft they boarded.
    Too rare in my book.

    Heck the Covenant want to take a page from the Imperium playbook they can absorb the Terminators by having a standing order that ships so boarded that are about to be lost take a jump into a star. They've got more ships the Imperium has Terminator squads.

    Though this does remind me of the 40k/ST discussion where there was a question of what sort of shields are needed to stop teleporters. Apparently there was some precedent on the 40k end for that working but I don't recall it.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Can the Covanent release the flood? Yes, I know the flood kills everyone, but the Prophets seem insane enough to do it.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Can the Covanent release the flood? Yes, I know the flood kills everyone, but the Prophets seem insane enough to do it.
    Better question - will the Flood actually do anything to affect the outcome? Tyranids are essentially the scaled-up version of the Flood and the IoM battles them on a daily basis - and is furthermore not afraid to simply pull its live troops off a planet and Exterminatus the sucker in order to halt the contagion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    It really comes down to who wins in space.

    In the novels it's mentioned that Spartan II's in the very earliest non-shielded armor were able to consistently beat the covenant on the ground, even if they did take a lot of casualties to the point of only having one active member by the very first game.

    However, they still lost because the covenant would just blow the entire planet to hell from orbit and that would be the end of that conflict.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Well they apparently even got a UNSC ship jump inside High Charity. So the precision is clearly there.

    Now what exactly establishes this vulnerability? Because I went to that article looking for it specifically and didn't find it. This makes me suspicous of the claim and wondering about the context. For example a Covenant ship coming out into an ambush wouldn't be ready to fight for reasons that have nothing to do with Slipstream systems.
    I believe it's the power requirements necessary for Slipspace jumps, but it doesn't seem firmly established. We do know that weapons can't be fired in Slipspace, and shields can't be raised (or at least, aren't), and Ships that exit long term slipspace jumps have to be awakened from Cryo sleep in order to be fully combat ready.

    The overarching point however, will be addressed next.

    Its significant that the Battleships themselves are considered pretty rare themselves. Likewise you would expect one or maybe two Battle Barges in an entire campaign. And by every indication I'm getting you don't need the Imperium to be simply comparable you need them to be seriously better because the Covenant fields fleets in the hundreds as a matter of course so they will have weight of numbers.

    Sure in theory the Imperium has unlimited resources so could have a big a fleet as it ever wants... but that would require years of coordination. Even massing what they have takes weeks where not months for just parts of the galaxy depending on how many evil-o's the Warp had for breakfast. Now some places yeah, but I'm not exactly putting sacking Terra and Mars as the threshold for Covenant victory either. If they can in essence become another full fledged faction of 40k then that's victory enough.

    At present the only reason I can see Imperial aggression holding up is a vast gap in raw power and durablity... which I'm not seeing the justification for other then the same old blind assumption that everything 40k is automatically a 1000 times more epic.
    It occurs to me that you forget the time frame in which the Imperium wages war. Decades to build new ships, years to coordinate them into a fleet to rival the size of the Covenant, months to track down the position of High Charity, and then just a matter of hours as every last Covenant is massacred by a force the likes of which they have never known or faced. Sure it might take a century, millions of lives, and billions of logistical hours and resources, but that's a price the Imperium is willing to pay and had paid before to annihilate whole alien races, civilizations and defeat incursions, invasions and fleets twice as large and powerful than the Covenant.

    The way I see it, even the entire Covenant Civilization assembled in all it's might is the equivalent of a fair sized ork Waaagh! and comparably belligerent and zealous. Ork Waaaghs! often cause a lot of Desctruction, but are in 99% of cases ultimately unsuccessful and crushed, defeated or scattered due to the overwhelming logistical might, nigh inexhaustible resources, and tectonic patience of the Imperium.

    The only reason the Orks remain a threat is because they reproduce by space-born spores (it's true!) and as long as a few spores remain on a planet, asteroid, or space hulk somewhere, the potential for billions of ork to spring up like daises is still there and start a whole new Waaagh.

    The Covenant lack that ability. Their ability to recoup losses and construct new weapons and ships is on par with most other sentient, technologically developed races, and all it would really take is one back breaking defeat, one crushing victory for the IoM it'd only be a matter of time before they were finished. The assassination of the Prophets (By Terminators, the Officio Assassinorium), the destruction of High Charity (by combined Imperial Fleet Strength, Titans, etc.) or simply the destruction of a fleet the size of the one that attacked Reach, and the Covenant will crumble.

    Too rare in my book.

    Heck the Covenant want to take a page from the Imperium playbook they can absorb the Terminators by having a standing order that ships so boarded that are about to be lost take a jump into a star. They've got more ships the Imperium has Terminator squads.

    Though this does remind me of the 40k/ST discussion where there was a question of what sort of shields are needed to stop teleporters. Apparently there was some precedent on the 40k end for that working but I don't recall it.
    Too rare? The whole point is that once the Covenant are a big enough threat they are sure to encounter Terminators, and every Chapter of Space Marines has at least one Terminator Company.

    Terminators are rare compared to IG, but when you decide to field an army in 40k, the only limit on the number of Terminators you can field is the number of Elite Slots you have available in your army composition (at least 3). Beyond that, there the Dark Angels Deathwing Companies, which are entirely composed of Terminators.

    You say that we're assuming that everything in 40k is better simply by virtue of it being in the future, well I say you're assuming everything in 40k is too rare to be encountered is equally baseless.

    If the Covenant's threshold for victory is establishing themselves as another major player on the galactic stage within the 40k Universe, then they have to be able to take on the same threats as everyone else, and that is simply not the case. You can't be a galactic threat or major faction while counting on the fact that your opponents greatest soldiers and weapons (the ones that will utterly decimate you if you face them) are too rare to be encountered.

    The Eldar are elusive, evasive and have greater maneuverability and agility than the Empire, and also drastically fewer numbers. But, when the going gets tough, they also have the troops and the technology and the military might to face down the Legions of Chaos, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Ork Waaagghs!, and Necron Tombeships, and oh yeah Space Marine Chapters. Your whole argument is predicated on this notion that everything the IoM can throw at the Covenant can be either evaded or is too rare to matter. That makes them a second rate power who can never really stand up against the heavy hitters, just more or less festers because the Imperium can't be bothered at present to annihilate them piecemeal.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    It really comes down to who wins in space.

    In the novels it's mentioned that Spartan II's in the very earliest non-shielded armor were able to consistently beat the covenant on the ground, even if they did take a lot of casualties to the point of only having one active member by the very first game.

    However, they still lost because the covenant would just blow the entire planet to hell from orbit and that would be the end of that conflict.
    See the difference between the UNSC and the Imperium, is that if the Imperium start losing on the ground, they do the same thing. Their ships execute Exterminatus or Virusbomb the planet and destroy every living thing on the surface. The Imperials also have planetary defenses to stop other factions from doing exactly the same thing, so just imagine how different the war in Halo would have gone if the UNSC had ships and defense systems to deal with that.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Tyranids are essentially the scaled-up version of the Flood and the IoM battles them on a daily basis - and is furthermore not afraid to simply pull its live troops off a planet and Exterminatus the sucker in order to halt the contagion.
    As it's 40K, it should be noted that sometimes the retreat of friendlies is optional before commencing Exterminatus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    That makes them a second rate power who can never really stand up against the heavy hitters, just more or less festers because the Imperium can't be bothered at present to annihilate them piecemeal.
    So kinda like the Tau then?

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Will people please stop bringing 40k into these vs. threads. I don't think there is a single franchise more inconsistantly written or with as as many magic "I Win" buttons. It's the Sci-Fi equivalant of "No, you can't shoot me because I have bulletproof armor." "Well I have bullets that go through bulletproof armor." "Well I have a magic helmet that makes your bullets not work." "You're stupid." "No you're stupid."
    And it's awesome, but it doesn't work if you compare it to other franchises.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    As it's 40K, it should be noted that sometimes the retreat of friendlies is optional before commencing Exterminatus.



    So kinda like the Tau then?
    Actually, kind of exactly like the Tau. Except, you know, the Tau are content to kind of tease at the edges of Imperial Space, flaunting that fact.

    The Covenant on the other hand are possessed of a religious zealotry to rival the Adeptus Sororitas and the same xenocidal furor to boot.

    I'd say they have all the worst aspects of the Tau and the Orks, a recipe that is likely to get them all killed inside of a decade of combat with the Imperium.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Will people please stop bringing 40k into these vs. threads. I don't think there is a single franchise more inconsistantly written or with as as many magic "I Win" buttons. It's the Sci-Fi equivalant of "No, you can't shoot me because I have bulletproof armor." "Well I have bullets that go through bulletproof armor." "Well I have a magic helmet that makes your bullets not work." "You're stupid." "No you're stupid."
    And it's awesome, but it doesn't work if you compare it to other franchises.
    Well, it is still better than using Gurren Lagaan or DBZ. "That's right, the character in question destroys the entire galaxy in a few seconds, completely ignoring that their attacks are still limited by the speed of light and would take thousands of years to reach that far."

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Imperials can't board Covenant, tonnage concerns.
    And Imperial Task Forces, on seeing a ship with valuable boarding troops vanish, will issue orders to the effect of "Don't board the Xenos".

    Alternatively, one of the first targets will be the drive bays so that the ship can't do that. Or they'll jump in, wreck the place, and possibly jump out again.

    Anyway, that's something of a moot point. Slipspace is warped in the presence of strong gravity wells, and a star definitely qualifies. The Covenant weren't aware that their tech could even do jumps in atmosphere until someone using their own ships did it for them, and this event happened after Reach.


    As far as durability/raw power goes, a basic Lunar Cruiser, the mainstay of the Imperial Fleet, one of the most common ships, is 5 Km long, weighs in at 28 Megatonnes. Front facing torpedo bays, reasonable broadsides.

    A Covenant Assault Carrier, so one of the largest ships in their navy, by comparison, is also about 5 Km long. Significant point defence, an Energy Projector, which in 40K terms appear to be long ranged high power Lances, plasma torpedoes and so on.

    If nothing else, sizewise, one of the Covenants largest ships is equalled by a ship of the line in 40K. And actual Battleships are much bigger and far more heavily armed/armoured.

    I'll grant you, nothing commonly used in the Imperial Fleet can stand up to a Covenant Supercarrier (29Km) individually, but again, that's probably the sort of thing that Terminators actually get used for, boarding supercarriers. The corridor nature of spacecraft would limit the amount of firepower that could be used against the Terminators. And I doubt that the Covenant would sacrifice a Supercarrier so readily, even if they could.

    EDIT: Oh wow, a lot of people posted in the time I wrote this.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Also, why are we going to assume the IoM is going to be on the defensive this whole time? What if they just start attacking Covenant planets? Hell, they could probably pull off a Space version of Sherman's March to the Sea.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Am I the one who thinks that Hunters will give Terminators their moneys' worth in closed environment, making it impossible for Terminators just sweep trough Covenant ships? Also, did they change the fluff of teleportation being dangerous, scattering effect making it night impossible to teleport inside a space ship?
    That thing is no more terrible then I.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    [QUOTE=The_Final_Stand;13898452]
    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    [/Q]

    And Imperial Task Forces, on seeing a ship with valuable boarding troops vanish, will issue orders to the effect of "Don't board the Xenos".

    Alternatively, one of the first targets will be the drive bays so that the ship can't do that. Or they'll jump in, wreck the place, and possibly jump out again.

    Anyway, that's something of a moot point. Slipspace is warped in the presence of strong gravity wells, and a star definitely qualifies. The Covenant weren't aware that their tech could even do jumps in atmosphere until someone using their own ships did it for them, and this event happened after Reach.


    As far as durability/raw power goes, a basic Lunar Cruiser, the mainstay of the Imperial Fleet, one of the most common ships, is 5 Km long, weighs in at 28 Megatonnes. Front facing torpedo bays, reasonable broadsides.

    A Covenant Assault Carrier, so one of the largest ships in their navy, by comparison, is also about 5 Km long. Significant point defence, an Energy Projector, which in 40K terms appear to be long ranged high power Lances, plasma torpedoes and so on.

    If nothing else, sizewise, one of the Covenants largest ships is equalled by a ship of the line in 40K. And actual Battleships are much bigger and far more heavily armed/armoured.

    I'll grant you, nothing commonly used in the Imperial Fleet can stand up to a Covenant Supercarrier (29Km) individually, but again, that's probably the sort of thing that Terminators actually get used for, boarding supercarriers. The corridor nature of spacecraft would limit the amount of firepower that could be used against the Terminators. And I doubt that the Covenant would sacrifice a Supercarrier so readily, even if they could.

    EDIT: Oh wow, a lot of people posted in the time I wrote this.
    All Excellent points, but don't forget that the Covenant Assault Carriers can only stand up to a couple of MAC canon shots before their shields are downed, and Covenant ships without their shields are every bit as vulnerable to conventional weapons as UNSC craft.

    Imperial Lunar Cruisers have banks of Void Shields designed to absorb multiple broadsides or Lance attacks, and fortified armor underneath built to absorb missiles, torpedos, and broadside salvos on a scale the Covenant can scarce conceive of. Now, I'm willing to concede that if Covenant energy weapons function more or less like Lance fire, then that armor is going to be worth a lot less (seeing as Lances ignore armor), but the fact that 40k lances are energy projectors that rung the length of the ship, and Covenant energy weapons operate in banks . . .

    Actually, if we look at the Super Carrier's energy projectors, we know it supports 5-7 and that they don't take up the entire length of the ship (or else it wouldn't be able to mount that many or direct them at multiple angles). Imperial Battlships and Cruisers mount Lance batteries that run the entire length of their ships, but can only fire in one direction. That would seem to suggest that the Imperial Battleships standard Lance armament is comparable to at least one of the energy projectors mounted on Covenant Super Carriers, or perhaps even several being fired in the same direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by darksolitaire View Post
    Am I the one who thinks that Hunters will give Terminators their moneys' worth in closed environment, making it impossible for Terminators just sweep trough Covenant ships? Also, did they change the fluff of teleportation being dangerous, scattering effect making it night impossible to teleport inside a space ship?
    I'd say you're alone there, since the consensus a page or two ago was that regular Space Marines are comparable in size and armor (8 feet tall, clad in inches thick Adamantium super armor that ignores conventional weapons fire, etc.). Terminators are more heavily armed and armored versions, and are deployed in squads outnumbering Hunter more than 2 to 1 (actually exactly 5 to 2).

    Also that Fluff has generally stayed the same, except teleportation onto ships has always been part of the lore. One of the whole points about Terminator armor is that they are equipped with teleport homers and thus can be more readily and accurately teleported for boarding actions and the like.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 04:08 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    I'd say you're alone there, since the consensus a page or two ago was that regular Space Marines are comparable in size and armor (8 feet tall, clad in inches thick Adamantium super armor that ignores conventional weapons fire, etc.). Terminators are more heavily armed and armored versions, and are deployed in squads outnumbering Hunter more than 2 to 1 (actually exactly 5 to 2).
    Do'h, that consensus is just wrong. Standard space marine is 7-7,5 feet tall (Elites are taller) and according to one source weights 700 pounds (twice as much as Elites). Hunter is 12 feet tall and weights 10,500 pounds. I'll see if I can make good post debunking that consensus in the morning.
    Last edited by darksolitaire; 2012-09-14 at 04:18 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by darksolitaire View Post
    Do'h, that consensus is just wrong. Standard space marine is 7-7,5 feet tall (Elites are taller) and according to one source weights 700 pounds (twice as much as Elites). Hunter is 12 feet tall and weights 10,500 pounds. I'll see if I can make good post debunking that consensus in the morning.
    The Hunter is 12 feet tall standing straight up, it's 8 feet tall hunched over as it generally is in the game, which is how most of us are familiar with them. Also, the point that they are slower, and less agile is going to be difficult to debunk, and the Space Marine's reduced mass is . . .

    Wait a second, 10,500 pounds?! How do those ****ers even move? That's more than 5 tons . . . You're telling me hunters way as much M939 Transport trucks? Jesus, those things are like armored T. Rexes . . . pretty comparable in height and relative strength even . . .

    Still, I'm not going to give it to the Hunters just yet. A Space Marine is still faster, more agile, and has a comparable strength thanks to their powered armor. They are also far more numerous (even if still relatively few compared to the ranks of the IG) and on average have a century or more of combat experience. Power Weapons, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Weapons (in 40k even plasma rifles and pistols can ignore armor and vaporize troops), are all weapons more than readily available to the average space Marine for taking on a hunter, and if we're talking about Terminators, then they'll be armed with Power Fists, Lightning Claws, Chain Fists, Assault Cannons and other mobile heavy weapons.

    If a Squad of Spartans is a match for a pair of Hunters, you can bet your ass a Squad of the Emperors finest are as well.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Generally, regardless of difficulty setting, a hunter will go down if you're packing something like the minigun or a rocket launcher. You know, the kind of weapons Terminators come equipped with in one hand?

    That's assuming you don't just punch them repeatedly in their massive squishy weak-spots.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    If a Squad of Spartans is a match for a pair of Hunters, you can bet your ass a Squad of the Emperors finest are as well.
    Even spartans have trouble, you can't shoot them in the front with lasers. You have to fire in the back. Marines aren't going to know this right away.

    Heck, it says some Hunters come in Wraith size.
    Their shield: This shield protects them from almost every form of plasma-based or ballistic weaponry available to Covenant and human infantry alike.

    ■In Halo Wars, a Hunter can deflect many projectiles that would kill them in Halo 3. Like a Wraith Mortar or a Scorpion main cannon shot.
    You can't headshot them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Generally, regardless of difficulty setting, a hunter will go down if you're packing something like the minigun or a rocket launcher. You know, the kind of weapons Terminators come equipped with in one hand?

    That's assuming you don't just punch them repeatedly in their massive squishy weak-spots.
    No, it says only in the back. If you hit them in the front they will laugh it off (or deflect it like the Minigun).

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Even spartans have trouble, you can't shoot them in the front with lasers. You have to fire in the back. Marines aren't going to know this right away.

    Heck, it says some Hunters come in Wraith size.
    Their shield: This shield protects them from almost every form of plasma-based or ballistic weaponry available to Covenant and human infantry alike.

    ■In Halo Wars, a Hunter can deflect many projectiles that would kill them in Halo 3. Like a Wraith Mortar or a Scorpion main cannon shot.
    You can't headshot them.


    No, it says only in the back. If you hit them in the front they will laugh it off (or deflect it like the Minigun).

    Their face is unprotected too, actually. With a sniper rifle, they go down in one.

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