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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    I believe it's the power requirements necessary for Slipspace jumps, but it doesn't seem firmly established. We do know that weapons can't be fired in Slipspace, and shields can't be raised (or at least, aren't), and Ships that exit long term slipspace jumps have to be awakened from Cryo sleep in order to be fully combat ready.

    The overarching point however, will be addressed next.
    I'm asking you to source that. That same page mentions for example that Slipspace tends to put out dangerous radiation and speculates that the Covenant uses their shields to stop that. That may well be a wrong speculation but it points out what I'm not seeing: information that supports your claim.

    So I'm looking for what you have arrived at the conclusion from. In particular what spells it out as a weakness of the Covenant. Because its sounds to me more like you are deriving something on your own here.



    It occurs to me that you forget the time frame in which the Imperium wages war. Decades to build new ships, years to coordinate them into a fleet to rival the size of the Covenant, months to track down the position of High Charity, and then just a matter of hours as every last Covenant is massacred by a force the likes of which they have never known or faced. Sure it might take a century, millions of lives, and billions of logistical hours and resources, but that's a price the Imperium is willing to pay and had paid before to annihilate whole alien races, civilizations and defeat incursions, invasions and fleets twice as large and powerful than the Covenant.
    If we establish parity with the factions of 40k through initial survival it becomes it only raises the question of why they haven't done this to any of the other factions.

    Answer: because they can't

    Oh sure on paper they perhaps can, but its not ever going to actually happen.
    The Covenant lack that ability. Their ability to recoup losses and construct new weapons and ships is on par with most other sentient, technologically developed races, and all it would really take is one back breaking defeat, one crushing victory for the IoM it'd only be a matter of time before they were finished. The assassination of the Prophets (By Terminators, the Officio Assassinorium), the destruction of High Charity (by combined Imperial Fleet Strength, Titans, etc.) or simply the destruction of a fleet the size of the one that attacked Reach, and the Covenant will crumble.
    That's all easier said then done. You can't just kill a few Prophets, and like casting the Ring into Mount Doom the entire Covenant will kill itself for you. Nor is it a trivial task to learn enough to actually be able to learn about, find, infilitrate and kill one of the Prophets. At the first sign of trouble the others are going to bug out. And that's not even getting into how you eliminate a few High Prophets, other San 'Shyuum will step up. And there's an entire council of 200 Prophets and Elites leading the Covenant.

    You want to write that story, I've got simpler one. The Covenant learns from any number of Imperial sources that the entire Imperium revolves around the Astronomicon on Earth. This is how Imperial navigation works, its not concealable info. The location of Terra in hand they jump in a few of those super carriers right low above the planet on a suicide mission crewed by martyrs and perform a colony drop on all the biggest things they can find. With the size of those things that is a Cretaceous Event. Best of all if it doesn't work there FTL tech means they can keep trying it. No Astronomicon, no Golden Throne, no Imperium. The Imperium has an actual keystone that can take down the entire civilization rendering a million factional areas unable to support one another. Certainly not organize a major war.

    Also the Covenant DID loose a fleet of comparable size to the one at Reach. This was in the war they steadily won despite efforts like this.

    Too rare? The whole point is that once the Covenant are a big enough threat they are sure to encounter Terminators, and every Chapter of Space Marines has at least one Terminator Company.
    Yeah too rare.

    There are 1000 Chapters of 1000 Marines. Going by this this a Chapter has at most 20 Squads of no more then 10 Terminators. This works out to a mere 200 thousand spread across a galaxy who's planets should number in the trillions.

    I consider all Space Marines strategically irrelevant in a galactic conflict to begin with. Maybe if all of them were gathered together they could be put to a singular useful task like defending Cadia. One world for the entire concept. They lack the numbers though to actually matter on anything galactic in scale, especially spread apart.

    When you see Space Marine say raiding a Space Hulk... you see idiots that are wasting the Imperium's time and resources so badly its should be positively heretical.

    Forming a perfect demonstration of why the Imperium is not actually a functional civilization but the rotting corpse of one. Which looking at the state of the Emperor I think is subtly the intended point.

    You say that we're assuming that everything in 40k is better simply by virtue of it being in the future, well I say you're assuming everything in 40k is too rare to be encountered is equally baseless.
    Because by the numbers it is. The actual Imperium as far as troops is the IG (and defensively the PDFs) with tanks and lasguns sprinkled with bolters and lascannons. The Leman Russ wins for the Imperium, not the Space Marine.

    The space side is better since there is less super-elite whatevers around it seem, but there I'm seeing loose parity in any kind of direct match with the Covenant fielding fleets numbering in the hundreds and superior FTL.

    The Imperium can win on ground, but in space unless they are arbitrarily super invincible (by what benchmark?) then the Covenant can take them on two to one with superior moblity and win. Control space and you've half won the battle. Its why the USNC was steadily lost.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Their face is unprotected too, actually. With a sniper rifle, they go down in one.
    This isw a minor point but Hunters don't actually have faces.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by darksolitaire View Post
    Am I the one who thinks that Hunters will give Terminators their moneys' worth in closed environment, making it impossible for Terminators just sweep trough Covenant ships? Also, did they change the fluff of teleportation being dangerous, scattering effect making it night impossible to teleport inside a space ship?
    I think so. Terminators destroy pretty much everything these days. I don't think the Hunters would even be able to harm a Terminator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    *snip*
    The problem about saying that Space Marines are irrelevant is that they really really aren't. Yes they can't be everywhere but they are constantly moving to handle the bigger threats. If the Covenant aren't one of these threats then they aren't relevant at all. Basically if the Guard can handle them then the Imperium has already won.

    Plus its also a matter of luck. If they hit someplace important then Space Marines will join the fight. Also consider MC pretty much ripped the Covenant apart and I consider him to be about as strong as a Space Marine officer, well then the Covenant is pretty much dead isn't it?


    Now for the suicide attacks; How quickly can they detonate the ship? Because if it takes any time then it sounds like the ground based defenses will be able to shoot the ship down first.

    Also I want to bring up psykers. They can pretty much control the crew of a ship and send them into a frenzy of madness to kill everyone on board. Or just cause them to explode. The Covenant have no defenses against them and no forewarning of it happening. It would brutalize them and can form a pretty good defense against the suicide attacks.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    I'm rather poorly informed about Warhammer. However, the Covenant's weapons in the game are much weaker than they canonically are (to reduce player frustration). It's been noted that a single plasma pistol burst can vaporize flesh and bone, as well as carry mass. So not only are these superheated balls of ouch, but they have force behind them. The Covenant also has the advantage of numbers. If we're looking at Harvest levels of Covenant, we're talking millions of Jiralhanae (Brutes), billions of Sangheilians (Elites), hundreds of thousands of Mgal'lekgolo colonies (Hunters, which mind you are able to regenerate, and the size of them is dependent on how many Lekgolo worms form into a colony. The covenant has made Mgal'lekgolo that are simply stories tall), and billions more of the Unggoy (Grunts), Kig-Yar (Jackals and Skirmishers), and the ever-helpful Huragok (Engineers).

    Considering space battle is pretty much Covenant: 1, Imperium: 0 due to their rather brutal habit of glassing planets with so much plasma that it does exactly that: turns the surface, and all it's inhabitants into a glassy substance (a super-cooled version of the material they heat up into the plasma ammo, like a hot-glue gun).

    In great enough numbers, they could win. With lesser numbers, they'd call in the space-high cavalry to glass the planet. Their priority is usually air-support first, everything else second. With air support gone, they can withdraw and start glassing.

    Basically, it seems the Imperium has high-tech gear. The Covenant has brutal orbital attacks, numbers, and tactical diversity. They also have this nice habit of dying to lucky individuals named John (whose success is based on exactly that: luck).

    I think the most important part of the battle is the Covenant's habit of glassing versus the Imperium's more defensible ships. Of course, the Imperium can't handle several dozen megatons worth of plasma (per shot) hitting their bases on the surface of a planet.

    Even more important, the Covenant's previously mentioned population. They have trillions, maybe even quadrillions of aliens across all races, creating this horrific melting pot of culture and technology. Footsoldiers, tacticians, recon, brute force, commanding forces, and some seriously screwed up religion.

    Oh yeah, I forgot, the Halos. What happens if we throw a Halo into the mix?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Plus its also a matter of luck. If they hit someplace important then Space Marines will join the fight. Also consider MC pretty much ripped the Covenant apart and I consider him to be about as strong as a Space Marine officer, well then the Covenant is pretty much dead isn't it?
    He was lucky. Really, really lucky. Cortana, the Chief, Johnson, Jacob and Miranda Keyes, Halsey, Kurt, Sam, Kelly, every Spartan II and III, Thel Vadam, and even the Gravemind acknowledge that he was able to survive only due to his insane luck.

    Plus, the Covenant was significantly weakened by the Flood. If you throw them into the fight, it suddenly becomes a game in their favor. Exposed skin? A small crack in the armor? Whatever it is, they'll invade it and turn you into one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    This isw a minor point but Hunters don't actually have faces.
    It's more like a couple thousand tiny little faces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Also the Covenant DID loose a fleet of comparable size to the one at Reach. This was in the war they steadily won despite efforts like this.
    The worst part? Said loss of fleets required that one of the best soldiers the UNSC had fire hundreds of nuclear warheads into a star, creating a micronova. In a sense, the Imperium could win, should they be willing to sacrifice an extreme number of soldiers (totaling well into the billions, I can presume) destroying a star and making a nova (as the star that was destroyed was a Brown Dwarf).

    Oh, and Halo: Evolutions is a good read. I highly recommend it. One of the stories (Midnight in the Heart of the Midlothian) is a direct sequel to the Halo: Legends short The Prototype.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-14 at 08:57 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    The Covenant also has the advantage of numbers. If we're looking at Harvest levels of Covenant, we're talking millions of Jiralhanae (Brutes), billions of Sangheilians (Elites), hundreds of thousands of Mgal'lekgolo colonies (Hunters, which mind you are able to regenerate, and the size of them is dependent on how many Lekgolo worms form into a colony. The covenant has made Mgal'lekgolo that are simply stories tall), and billions more of the Unggoy (Grunts), Kig-Yar (Jackals and Skirmishers), and the ever-helpful Huragok (Engineers).
    And there's trillions without number of humans in the IoM. They're still ahead numerically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Considering space battle is pretty much Covenant: 1, Imperium: 0 due to their rather brutal habit of glassing planets with so much plasma that it does exactly that: turns the surface, and all it's inhabitants into a glassy substance (a super-cooled version of the material they heat up into the plasma ammo, like a hot-glue gun).
    See also ; The Imperium does the same thing with Magma Bombardment Cannons, Lance Strikes, and if they want to blow up the planet instead of slagging it, they fire an Exterminautis missle. The fact that the Covenant occasionally toast planets does not put them in the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Basically, it seems the Imperium has high-tech gear. The Covenant has brutal orbital attacks, numbers, and tactical diversity. They also have this nice habit of dying to lucky individuals named John (whose success is based on exactly that: luck)
    The Imperium is beyond the brutality of the Covenant, willing to take the most extreme measures against thier own side, just to make sure. They also have as many different tactical bases as they do generals... which is to say millions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Plus, the Covenant was significantly weakened by the Flood. If you throw them into the fight, it suddenly becomes a game in their favor. Exposed skin? A small crack in the armor? Whatever it is, they'll invade it and turn you into one of them.
    The Flood are... Not incredibly impressive compared to Tyranids who can space travel without an outside source. Also, the Covenant hadn't fought the Flood until the first Halo Ring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    In a sense, the Imperium could win, should they be willing to sacrifice an extreme number of soldiers (totaling well into the billions, I can presume)
    The Imperium of Man cares less about the human lives they sacrifice, than the lasguns that the guardsmen happen to be carrying. Throwing more troops at it is thier forte.
    Last edited by Kinslayer; 2012-09-14 at 09:00 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    I'm rather poorly informed about Warhammer.
    You don't have to be specifically knowledgeable about W40K to know that in a universe where every major faction has large space navies that carry global-extinction-event level arsenals, the Imperium Of Man will have military defense in place to counter exactly such tactics. In fact, they do and they have done so for tens of thousands of years.

    Same logic as for the SW universe, or the ST universe, i.e. ofc the major civilizations have planetary defenses against enemy ships intent on destruction.

    I agree with Soras that any "realistic" initial match-up against the IOM is against the IG, not the SM. However, if the Convenant wins handily in the first few engagements with the IG, then they will be facing a SM chapter. That is also a given.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    If we establish parity with the factions of 40k through initial survival it becomes it only raises the question of why they haven't done this to any of the other factions.

    Answer: because they can't

    Oh sure on paper they perhaps can, but its not ever going to actually happen.
    Corrected answer - they have and did. The background material is littered with references to various alien species and empires that the Imperium did devote its resources to wholescale annihilation of. The reason no existing factions have been wiped out (such as the Tau, who would swing hard but still get crushed in the end) is pretty blatantly and cynically because the universe and story exists to sell the wargame, like the most absurdly overpriced 80's cartoon ever. Some they actually can't beat permanently, such as the Tyranids or Orks, but it's most common in the RPG fluff and various other books (Xenology, and some of the older core rulebooks from 3rd and 4th edition) to mention xenos species that did get exterminated.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    (such as the Tau, who would swing hard but still get crushed in the end
    I think the fluff reason is that the last time the Tau homeworld was visited by an Imperial survey team, it was so primitive that they logged and filed it, then forgot about it.
    Cycle forwards a couple thousand years and now the Tau a small player on the galactic stage, which would get crushed by the Imperium, if they ever got to be a major threat/encroached on Imperial territory too much/the Imperium actually finds the time and resources to throw at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Some they actually can't beat permanently, such as the Tyranids or Orks, but it's most common in the RPG fluff and various other books (Xenology, and some of the older core rulebooks from 3rd and 4th edition) to mention xenos species that did get exterminated.
    *Cough*Squats*Cough*

    Were the old 6 limbed zoats, a separate xenos race, or were they part of the tyranids in 40K?

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The Flood are... Not incredibly impressive compared to Tyranids who can space travel without an outside source. Also, the Covenant hadn't fought the Flood until the first Halo Ring.
    As I said earlier, the Flood have this awful habit of infecting anything their little spores touch, and using it against them. Even if the Imperium really are as special as you say, both the Tyranids and Imperium wouldn't stand a chance.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    As I said earlier, the Flood have this awful habit of infecting anything their little spores touch, and using it against them. Even if the Imperium really are as special as you say, both the Tyranids and Imperium wouldn't stand a chance.
    The thing is, the Flood can't get off a planet by themselves, and the Imperium is willing to burn thier own planets, population, and ships to a crisp. The Flood are a non-issue being entirely dependant on the people it can grab.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The thing is, the Flood can't get off a planet by themselves, and the Imperium is willing to burn thier own planets, population, and ships to a crisp. The Flood are a non-issue being entirely dependant on the people it can grab.
    The Flood drift through space. They seperate and reproduce at almost impossible rates, and if they take over a ship, then they're able to use it just as easily as the people they infected.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I think the fluff reason is that the last time the Tau homeworld was visited by an Imperial survey team, it was so primitive that they logged and filed it, then forgot about it.
    Cycle forwards a couple thousand years and now the Tau a small player on the galactic stage, which would get crushed by the Imperium, if they ever got to be a major threat/encroached on Imperial territory too much/the Imperium actually finds the time and resources to throw at them.



    *Cough*Squats*Cough*

    Were the old 6 limbed zoats, a separate xenos race, or were they part of the tyranids in 40K?
    Mention of 'Squats' has been declared Hereticus Maximumus by the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition. There are no such thing as 'Squats' and never have been.They were eaten by Tyranids anyways, not wiped out by the Imperium.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    As I said earlier, the Flood have this awful habit of infecting anything their little spores touch, and using it against them. Even if the Imperium really are as special as you say, both the Tyranids and Imperium wouldn't stand a chance.
    Flood vs Nids is interesting but I'm ultimately giving it to the Nids since all of their ground forces are reduced to a nutritious gruel in the end and recycled. Not to mention a good portion of the planet's crust.

    Also the infection form doesn't instantly infect everything so the Nids would likely just eat them along with everything else on the planet. Plus it's debatable if the individual Nids are setinant enough to even be infected. Finally the Nids can basically redesign each generation in minutes. So they could rewrite themselves to be immune.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    The Flood drift through space. They seperate and reproduce at almost impossible rates, and if they take over a ship, then they're able to use it just as easily as the people they infected.
    The Flood have never been shown to drift any distance through space without a ship. Negligable threat. Even if they get to one ship, the Imperium is used to things that take over ships near-instantly, and captains are entirely willing to self-destruct.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The problem about saying that Space Marines are irrelevant is that they really really aren't. Yes they can't be everywhere but they are constantly moving to handle the bigger threats. If the Covenant aren't one of these threats then they aren't relevant at all. Basically if the Guard can handle them then the Imperium has already won.
    More like are constantly moving to make big showy spectacles of themselves by kicking ass in one place generating convenient propaganda to hide the fact that while 1 Marine company was busy heroically defending a city from the orks/necrons/tryanids/etc 10 other planets died screaming.

    I digress though let's be more practical.

    Let's say the Space Marine company deploys on a planet and target the most reinforced Covenant position on the planet. All goes well and they crack it and capture the Elite running the force of the whole planet.

    In a story, hooray the heroes have won!

    In war they Covenant launches an orbital strike on the position and hands command over the the next senior officer who was busy on the other side of the planet at the time. The Covenant has lost a replaceable (or at least ample) resource while the Imperium has lost something irreplaceable and rare.

    That's the difference. That's why you need numbers the Marine don't have.
    Plus its also a matter of luck. If they hit someplace important then Space Marines will join the fight. Also consider MC pretty much ripped the Covenant apart and I consider him to be about as strong as a Space Marine officer, well then the Covenant is pretty much dead isn't it?
    Here's the thing for all the unstoppable Demon tore apart Covenant forces... he really didn't win the war. The Covenant beat itself, and with many many events that need to work out exactly as they did for the whole thing to happen. Suppose for example the Arbiter had never been made a scapegoat for Halo 1's events?

    Now for the suicide attacks; How quickly can they detonate the ship? Because if it takes any time then it sounds like the ground based defenses will be able to shoot the ship down first.
    They don't need to do a damn thing, simply appear in an unstable orbit.

    Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest SOB in space.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    A lot got posted while I was offline, but I have a few points I'd like to make which I think are pretty telling in the Imperium's favor.


    Number 1:
    To address the issue of how many Space Marines there are and how relevant they are in galactic conflict, it would seem to me to be self-evident that they are relevant on a galactic scale, given the number of times Space Marines have done what no normal soldiers could have done in order to avert galactic calamities. For references, please see the last 5,000 years of Imperial History.

    Every Space Marine is a hero of a dozen battles, has fought in hundreds more, and is a xenocidal zealot to put even the most fanatical Brute or Elite to shame. That the Space Marines have heroes and commanders amongst their ranks who are placed on a pedestal above even these gods among insects speak volumes. Master Chief is the whole reason the Covenant were defeated. Sure, her got really, really lucky and had Cortana backing him up, but the running theme in the Halo series is that maybe it wasn't so much a question of luck with John, but of fate.

    Now consider that there are Space Marine heroes out their like Marneus Calagar, Captain Darnath Lysander, Captain Aurellius (a Grey Knight), and perhaps dozens of others, it really doesn't seem fair to say that maybe the Covenant are just the opportunity some Space Marine out their needs to heroically sacrifice himself in an action which decimates a whole Covenant fleet or brings about the death of the High Council.

    As for the numbers of the Space Marines, each Space Marine Chapter totals somewhere between 1,000 and 10,000 Space Marines (numbers fluctuate wildly depending on the chapter in question), but not much greater than that since once a Chapter gets that large, it's host is separated and a new Chapter founded (to prevent another Heresy situation). Their were originally 36 Chapters at the time of the Second Founding. Since then, that number has spiraled into the hundreds, so at any given time I'd say their are between hundreds of thousands and a million or so Space Marines at any given time.

    Number 2:
    It was brought up that if the Imperium has the might to truly crush any of it's foes, it would do so, and that if the Covenant can establish themselves as a threat, they can remain as such as the Imperium will not be able to muster the necessary power at any one time in order to defeat them.

    First of all, I would not consider that a sufficient Threshold to consider the Covenant 'victorious' and I don't think the Prophets would either. We're talking about a culture of religious fanatics at least as xenocidal as the Imperium of itself. If you think the Covenant will settle for a dominion a couple of subsectors big when their are still humans ready to wage war against them, you're wrong.

    Next, I would like to point out that their are specific reasons for each other faction that prevent their annihilation at the hands of any other faction (reasons not shared by the Covenant), and secondly, the Imperium has more or less built its history on the piecemeal annihilation of smaller alien cultures and species, and that several of these races are referenced as extinct or 'prior threats' in the 4th and 5th edition rule books. Some of these were pre-heresey, but some of them were not.

    The point however remains that the other factions in 40k have specific reasons the Imperium of Man cannot just muster a force large enough to exterminate them and then do so:
    1. Chaos Legions- Aside from the fact that there are literally an inexhaustible number of Daemons inhabiting the Warp, the Chaos Space Marines hide in the Eye of Terror and launch period raids and crusades into Imperial Space. They also draw cultist and heretic humans from the Imperium itself.
    2. Eldar- Both Craftworld and Dark Eldar use the Webway to remain hidden and never commit to large scale engagements or campaigns which would endanger the survival of their species.
    3. Necron- The homeworlds of the Necron are unknown to the Empire, and they similarly make us of the webway (like the Eldar). Furthermore, the Necrons are the only truly immortal species as any Necrons who are beyond repair in the battlefield teleport back to their tombworld for full reconstruction. As far as we know, their could only be a few million Necrons in the entire Galaxy, but because you need a Blackstone Fortress to truly kill them, they remain an omnipresent threat.
    4. Tau- Do not openly court hostilities with the Imperials and in fact actively sue for peace and engage in what are at least tenuous diplomatic negotiations with the IoM. These are the best analogue, I think, for the Covenant, since they are a relatively small threat which the Imperium has knowledge of, but has not mustered the resources yet to 'deal' with, largely since they are distracted by the local Ork Waaagh! and the nearby vicinity of Hivefleet Behemoth, which are both radically more pressing matters in that region of space than a largely peaceable socialist 'empire'.


    You'll notice that Tyranids and Orks are not themselves on that list, and that is because they have are of a rather unique situation, in that the Imperium has in fact annihilated both factions piecemeal on several occasions (several of which in greater numbers boasted by the Covenant).

    Why do they continue to be a major faction then? Because they come back. The orcs are sort of like the flood in that just a couple of ork spores (yes they reproduce like fungus) can take root on a world and grow into a fully fledged Waaaagh! in a matter of months (and they don't even have to infect sentient life to do it!). The Tyranids are similar in that they are the masters of recycling losses and can regurgitate both allied and enemy biomatter into a whole new Hivefleet if given any sort of quarter. It should also be noted that they are an extra galactic invader, and that while Hivefleet Leviathan (which consisted of billions of Tyranid ships and troops) was crushed, Hive Fleet Behemoth has proved a much more insidious foe.

    The Covenant are both like the Tau in that they are a relatively small faction (with superior FTL technology I might add), but they are in no way peaceful and are exceedingly likely to begin a crusade into Imperial Space that will earn them top marks in the Ordo Xenos's **** list. Moreover, unlike the Orks or the Tyranids, they cannot recoup losses by mass reproduction, or consumption of planets natural resources. They train soldiers and build ships and weapons at a rate which would seem not drastically faster than the Imperium. In other words, they are at a severe disadvantage logistically, and are just crazy enough to get themselves killed and quickly.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 10:58 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The Flood have never been shown to drift any distance through space without a ship. Negligable threat. Even if they get to one ship, the Imperium is used to things that take over ships near-instantly, and captains are entirely willing to self-destruct.
    Did you watch Halo: Legends? Yes, they have. That's how they got into the Milky Way: they just drifted here in open space, and happened to land on the Forerunner homeworld. From there they took them over extremely quickly. This is a race of beings that is known to have been so infuriated with humanity that they outright de-evolved them.

    According to Halo canon, humanity was sentient far earlier than what was once believed. They developed incredibly quickly, but rebelled against the Forerunners by allying with the San 'Shyuum (the Prophets' race) to fight the Flood. The Forerunners archived their DNA, mixed their own with the prehistoric DNA, and effectively put humanity into a position where they had no technology, no way to use it, no knowledge of ever achieving sentience, etc. The Halos were fired, and humanity was later reborn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Also the infection form doesn't instantly infect everything so the Nids would likely just eat them along with everything else on the planet. Plus it's debatable if the individual Nids are sentient enough to even be infected. Finally the Nids can basically redesign each generation in minutes. So they could rewrite themselves to be immune.
    But the infection is instantaneous. Not only that, but it affects any sapient being. It takes seconds to infect anything, and the effect is only accelerated by more infection forms.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-14 at 10:53 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Did you watch Halo: Legends? Yes, they have. That's how they got into the Milky Way: they just drifted here in open space, and happened to land on the Forerunner homeworld. From there they took them over extremely quickly. This is a race of beings that is known to have been so infuriated with humanity that they outright de-evolved them.

    According to Halo canon, humanity was sentient far earlier than what was once believed. They developed incredibly quickly, but rebelled against the Forerunners by allying with the San 'Shyuum (the Prophets' race) to fight the Flood. The Forerunners archived their DNA, mixed their own with the prehistoric DNA, and effectively put humanity into a position where they had no technology, no way to use it, no knowledge of ever achieving sentience, etc. The Halos were fired, and humanity was later reborn.

    But the infection is instantaneous. Not only that, but it affects any sapient being. It takes seconds to infect anything, and the effect is only accelerated by more infection forms.

    This is a tangent debate. The Flood are a separate faction and not worthy considering in this discussion any more than the Eldar or the Necrons, that is as comparative material for teasing out specific aspects of either the Covenant or the Imperium.

    Please drop it or create a separate thread.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The Flood have never been shown to drift any distance through space without a ship. Negligable threat. Even if they get to one ship, the Imperium is used to things that take over ships near-instantly, and captains are entirely willing to self-destruct.
    The Flood destroyed a civilization far more powerful than the Imperium, gain all the knowledge of everyone they infect, and can operate and repair spaceships. The Flood you saw in the the games were a weak, not yet evolved version of the Flood's true power. Oh, and they can kill and and infect with billions of airborne spores. Never underestimate the Flood.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    But the Flood's infection is not absolute. Sgt. Johnson's failed Spartan I enhancements made him immune. The Tyranids are masters of genetic manipulation and bio-warfare and seek to constantly improve and evolve themselves if anyone can develop an immunity they can.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    The Flood destroyed a civilization far more powerful than the Imperium, gain all the knowledge of everyone they infect, and can operate and repair spaceships. The Flood you saw in the the games were a weak, not yet evolved version of the Flood's true power. Oh, and they can kill and and infect with billions of airborne spores. Never underestimate the Flood.
    Please see the above post. I would prefer not to entertain any more discussion about the Flood as they are not directly relevant to the Covenant.

    Presume that the Flood and the Halo Installations have been destroyed several tens of thousands years prior to the advent of the Imperium.

    Or if you like, start a Tyranids vs Flood thread. I'd love to weigh in on that argument so long as it's somewhere not here
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 11:05 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Trying to claim the Covenant have any chance in space is laughable. Even low-end calculations for the Imperium puts lances spitting out gigajoules of energy, and Covenant shields go down to megajoules. Void Shields on even the smallest vessels, meanwhile, take hours of lance bombardment and still keep kicking. An Imperium vessel could feasibly tank hundreds of Covenant vessels firing on it indefinitely, and swat them at its leisure.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    This is a tangent debate. The Flood are a separate faction and not worthy considering in this discussion any more than the Eldar or the Necrons, that is as comparative material for teasing out specific aspects of either the Covenant or the Imperium.

    Please drop it or create a separate thread.
    I'd say they are perfectly fine with being here; being just another variable like the Tyranids, we may as well say that this discussion has evolved into a Halo universe versus Warhammer universe battle.

    Which the Warhammer 40k universe easily wins, because it has maybe 50 factions of increasing unpleasantry. Besides, this thread has basically been established with the obvious fact that you want the Imperium to win. The Covenant has sheer numbers, all of which are cannon fodder (some with literal cannons). The fact that you claim the Imperium is willing to give up everything to win is the same thing the Covenant would do. The problem is the Covenant is unpredictable, full of viable threats of varying race and skill, and yet you say the Imperium would win because of sheer firepower. That is bias. You have information on the Covenant that you refuse to acknowledge, like how they managed to destroy every single colony in the Milky Way except Earth. That takes:

    • A lot of soldiers
    • Devoted followers
    • Incredible technology
    • A massive fleet that is equivalent to the population of whatever they plan on destroying


    Which means it's quite possible the Covenant and Imperium could very well just kill each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spamotron View Post
    But the Flood's infection is not absolute. Sgt. Johnson's failed Spartan I enhancements made him immune. The Tyranids are masters of genetic manipulation and bio-warfare and seek to constantly improve and evolve themselves if anyone can develop an immunity they can.
    You make a good argument. Yeah, that'd stop infection, but not the fighting overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Please see the above post. I would prefer not to entertain any more discussion about the Flood as they are not directly relevant to the Covenant.

    Presume that the Flood and the Halo Installations have been destroyed several tens of thousands years prior to the advent of the Imperium.
    Then the Covenant has been disbanded. The Brutes are the slaves of the Sangheili, which defected during the Human Covenant War, the Kig-Yar are back to space piracy, the San 'Shyuum are almost extinct from over-reliance on other races, the Unggoy are just farmers and slaves, like the Brutes, and the Engineers went off to terraform glassed colonies.

    Well, there's still the Mgal'lekgolo. Sort of. Hardly a covenant. Without the Installations, there is no point for them to exist. Canonically, once they were destroyed, the Covenant did exactly what I stated above. The only forces they have left are a meager presence on the Forbidden Planet in Halo 4.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    Trying to claim the Covenant have any chance in space is laughable. Even low-end calculations for the Imperium puts lances spitting out gigajoules of energy, and Covenant shields go down to megajoules. Void Shields on even the smallest vessels, meanwhile, take hours of lance bombardment and still keep kicking. An Imperium vessel could feasibly tank hundreds of Covenant vessels firing on it indefinitely, and swat them at its leisure.
    You know I was just in the process of crunching those numbers myself? It seems to me that the only comparable weaponry the Covenant have to a standard Imperial Lance battery are the Energy Projectors aboard their Super Carriers. And as you pointed out, Void Shields are designed to prevent those same lances from reaching the soon to be gooey starship exterior hull plating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I'd say they are perfectly fine with being here; being just another variable like the Tyranids, we may as well say that this discussion has evolved into a Halo universe versus Warhammer universe battle.
    Look, I'm trying to be polite here, and while I'd love to weigh in on that discussion, it really is the kind of thing for another thread. I'm much more interested in a conflict specifically between the Imperium of Man and Covenant, sans all other factions in their respective universes actually entering said conflict.

    If you like, I'll create that thread for you and we can engage in that discussion there.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 11:21 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    You know I was just in the process of crunching those numbers myself? It seems to me that the only comparable weaponry the Covenant have to a standard Imperial Lance battery are the Energy Projectors aboard their Super Carriers. And as you pointed out, Void Shields are designed to prevent those same lances from reaching the soon to be gooey starship exterior hull plating.
    So the Covenant had no chance of winning in the first place. Thus my arguments are entirely pointless, and the purpose of this thread is null. The Imperium wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Look, I'm trying to be polite here, and while I'd love to weigh in on that discussion, it really is the kind of thing for another thread. I'm much more interested in a conflict specifically between the Imperium of Man and Covenant, sans all other factions in their respective universes actually entering said conflict.

    If you like, I'll create that thread for you and we can engage in that discussion there.
    It was a joke. Chaos? Magic? Insane technology caused by tens of millenia of development? Put that against three factions, of which two have been functioning for maybe 2k years each, with only one actually being competent for 2k of those years. The other was in power for maybe 100.

    Covenant is obliterated.
    Humanity is vaporized.
    The Flood probably just kind of... Float somewhere. I'm sure they'd do some damage, but not enough.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-14 at 11:27 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    So the Covenant had no chance of winning in the first place. Thus my arguments are entirely pointless, and the purpose of this thread is null. The Imperium wins. Hooray.
    Call me convinced when I see Soras Teva Gee respond to my long post above (even if I have to repost it tomorrow).
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    So the Covenant had no chance of winning in the first place. Thus my arguments are entirely pointless, and the purpose of this thread is null. The Imperium wins. Hooray.
    Pretty much. The only tactic that we could come up with was the Covenant using hit and run tactics and suicide ships to destroy worlds. And even that does nothing to prevent the Imperium from taking over Covenant worlds and defending against the suicide ships.


    Speaking of the suicide ships I believe that the ground defenses would be enough to reduce them to slag so that the damage is minimized.

    Soras your example is silly. The Space Marines would secure orbit first before deploying and could do so easily via boarding torpedoes and teleporters since the Covenant ships have to get well within the Battle Barge's range.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Call me convinced when I see Soras Teva Gee respond to my long post above (even if I have to repost it tomorrow).
    Yeah, he makes a good point, which in the end does show that even if they couldn't win, they sure as hell would ruin the Imperium as effectively as possible. Their entire goal in the Halo series is to find the location of Earth and destroy it so they can progress with the Great Journey unopposed. I guess I just kind of threw my hands in the air and said "screw it" when you established that the Halos were destroyed along with the Flood. Post Halo 3, the Covenant is nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Pretty much. The only tactic that we could come up with was the Covenant using hit and run tactics and suicide ships to destroy worlds. And even that does nothing to prevent the Imperium from taking over Covenant worlds and defending against the suicide ships.
    The Covenant races abandoned their homeworlds a long time ago. While some end up returning, there's not strategic significance you can gain from blowing them up. You'll just make them madder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Speaking of the suicide ships I believe that the ground defenses would be enough to reduce them to slag so that the damage is minimized.
    Slag carrying active plasma is pretty nasty sounding slag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Soras your example is silly. The Space Marines would secure orbit first before deploying and could do so easily via boarding torpedoes and teleporters since the Covenant ships have to get well within the Battle Barge's range.
    Could they manage this if they didn't expect a sudden ambush? The Covenant have nasty habits. Among these:

    • Popping up unexpectedly to ruin everyone's day.
    • Glassing planets as a hobby, kind of like Warhammer 40k.
    • Shooting anything that isn't Covenant.
    • Glassing planets that aren't Covenant.
    • Blowing up your base so they can go on and glass more planets.
    • If all else fails, complete their religious ceremony and activate the Halo Installations.


    The Halos are a special little thing. Any of them can fire, causing a chain reaction with all of them, causing all to link up and fire simultaneously. Not only that, but it wipes out all organic life in its entirety. No more Imperium, no more Covenant. The Covenant don't even have to reveal themselves. Once they recognize the Imperium as a threat they can't face, they'll just ahead and blow everyone up.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-14 at 11:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Pretty much. The only tactic that we could come up with was the Covenant using hit and run tactics and suicide ships to destroy worlds. And even that does nothing to prevent the Imperium from taking over Covenant worlds and defending against the suicide ships.


    Speaking of the suicide ships I believe that the ground defenses would be enough to reduce them to slag so that the damage is minimized.

    Soras your example is silly. The Space Marines would secure orbit first before deploying and could do so easily via boarding torpedoes and teleporters since the Covenant ships have to get well within the Battle Barge's range.
    Nah, you have your ship appear inside the ocean. Let's see the ground defenses shoot it before it goes off now!

    I have no emotional attachment to this argument at all. :P

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Nah, you have your ship appear inside the ocean. Let's see the ground defenses shoot it before it goes off now!

    I have no emotional attachment to this argument at all. :P
    I thought they couldn't warp within a significant gravity well?
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