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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Nah, you have your ship appear inside the ocean. Let's see the ground defenses shoot it before it goes off now!

    I have no emotional attachment to this argument at all. :P
    Ummmm . . . it can't exit make a slipspace jump into an ocean for the same reason it can's exit into solid matter?

    I mean seriously, this is a moot point since we have already established that devoting the resources necessary to allow a Covenant ship to make a suicide run at a Forgeworld or the like would make not be worth the cost!


    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I thought they couldn't warp within a significant gravity well?
    Someone referenced a point at which a UNSC officer uses a Covenant Ship to warp into the atmosphere of a planet (or maybe High Charity) the point being that even the Covenant didn't know their ships could do that until then, and that it required a lot of luck to pull it off.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-14 at 11:40 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Because it was lost in the aftermath of a couple posts while I was editing it, here's another note from yours truly.

    I think that in the end, despite all these arguments, in order for the Covenant to exist, the Halos need to also be available. It's why they exist. When the Halos are activated, everyone's screwed. Plain and simple. As said in my above post, nobody even needs to be aware of the Covenant's existence. They'll just waltz on over to an Installation, activate it, and bam: everyone dies, the Covenant fulfills their goal, and the Imperium is wiped from the face of existence.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-14 at 11:45 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    The Covenant races abandoned their homeworlds a long time ago. While some end up returning, there's not strategic significance you can gain from blowing them up. You'll just make them madder.



    Slag carrying active plasma is pretty nasty sounding slag.



    Could they manage this if they didn't expect a sudden ambush? The Covenant have nasty habits. Among these:

    • Popping up unexpectedly to ruin everyone's day.
    • Glassing planets as a hobby, kind of like Warhammer 40k.
    • Shooting anything that isn't Covenant.
    • Glassing planets that aren't Covenant.
    • Blowing up your base so they can go on and glass more planets.
    • If all else fails, complete their religious ceremony and activate the Halo Installations.


    The Halos are a special little thing. Any of them can fire, causing a chain reaction with all of them, causing all to link up and fire simultaneously. Not only that, but it wipes out all organic life in its entirety. No more Imperium, no more Covenant. The Covenant don't even have to reveal themselves. Once they recognize the Imperium as a threat they can't face, they'll just ahead and blow everyone up.
    Really? I didn't know that. Well the Imperium would still conquer (not blow up, they aren't that wasteful if they think they can conquer the planet) those planets and wherever the Covenant are getting their resources from.

    I honestly have no idea what would happen to the plasma when you blow up a warship. I guess some of it would dissipate into the metal around it? I got no clue. Either way I'm thinking it would be reduced from a planet busting attack to just harmful.

    Yeah pretty much. Space Marines can attack demon infested worlds where the demons can literally appear out of nowhere and warp physics to better suit themselves.

    Now about the Halo rings. I'm going to say that wouldn't do anything to the Imperium. Why? Simply because the Halo rings aren't in the 40k universe. Just like we aren't saying that the Covenant has to start dealing with the warp or any of the Imperium's rivals, the Imperium doesn't have to worry about the Halo rings.


    Regarding warping in atmosphere: If its a tactic the Covenant isn't aware of then they can't use it now can they?
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2012-09-14 at 11:56 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Because it was lost in the aftermath of a couple posts while I was editing it, here's another note from yours truly.

    I think that in the end, despite all these arguments, in order for the Covenant to exist, the Halos need to also be available. It's why they exist. When the Halos are activated, everyone's screwed. Plain and simple. As said in my above post, nobody even needs to be aware of the Covenant's existence. They'll just waltz on over to an Installation, activate it, and bam: everyone dies, the Covenant fulfills their goal, and the Imperium is wiped from the face of existence.
    That's not the established threshold for a Covenant victory here though. The idea is whether or not the Covenant are militarily a threat to the Imperium, and if the Halos are activated then everyone dies and there has been no military victory.

    Also, if there's about to be a galaxy wide execution of all sentient life, you can damn well bet the Emperor's Tarot is going to reveal something to that effect and that just about every psyker in the galaxy is going to be wracked with visions of prophetic doom indicating the impending annihilation. I'd wager good money that the Emperor's spirit would actively intervene at that point, guiding some lone Space Marine strike force or Inquisitor or other champion of his will to the Halo Station the Covenant are attempting to activate and then we'd see more or less the same scenario in Halo I played out with Covenant and Adeptus Astartes forces (which we've established would definitely work out in favor of the Space Marines).
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    By that argument then with the Imperium comes the rest of 40k universe and all the fun that entails, like Dark Elder raids, Ork Warghs, Chaos Warbands and all that other fun stuff. The point of a verses thread is just to analyse how the various factions would fare against each other in whatever the competition is with no outside help. The Halo weapon system is part of the Halo universe, but not part of the Covenant arsenal, so why should they have access to them. Also the Covenant can not actually activate the Halo's without human assistance, which the Covenant only became aware of at the end of the war.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulm11 View Post
    *snip snip* Also the Covenant can not actually activate the Halo's without human assistance, which the Covenant only became aware of at the end of the war.
    Excellent point.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
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    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Really? I didn't know that. Well the Imperium would still conquer (not blow up, they aren't that wasteful if they think they can conquer the planet) those planets and wherever the Covenant are getting their resources from.

    I honestly have no idea what would happen to the plasma when you blow up a warship. I guess some of it would dissipate into the metal around it? I got no clue. Either way I'm thinking it would be reduced from a planet busting attack to just harmful.

    Yeah pretty much. Space Marines can attack demon infested worlds where the demons can literally appear out of nowhere and warp physics to better suit themselves.

    Now about the Halo rings. I'm going to say that wouldn't do anything to the Imperium. Why? Simply because the Halo rings aren't in the 40k universe. Just like we aren't saying that the Covenant has to start dealing with the warp or any of the Imperium's rivals, the Imperium doesn't have to worry about the Halo rings.


    Regarding warping in atmosphere: If its a tactic the Covenant isn't aware of then they can't use it now can they?
    The Covenant get their resources from Forerunner artifacts that humanity was never able to translate because the Covenant kind of blew them up.

    Superheated plasma wouldn't dissipate a ship, rather it would melt it.

    If there are no Halo rings, the Covenant won't be present. They have no reason to be there, they are clearly outmatched, and they won't bother. Thus, in order for the battle to occur, the rings must be present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulm11 View Post
    By that argument then with the Imperium comes the rest of 40k universe and all the fun that entails, like Dark Elder raids, Ork Warghs, Chaos Warbands and all that other fun stuff. The point of a verses thread is just to analyse how the various factions would fare against each other in whatever the competition is with no outside help. The Halo weapon system is part of the Halo universe, but not part of the Covenant arsenal, so why should they have access to them. Also the Covenant can not actually activate the Halo's without human assistance, which the Covenant only became aware of at the end of the war.
    The Covenant have no need to be present should the Great Journey not be possible. They'd keep a low profile, to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Excellent point.
    Yup. Completely forgot about that. The Halos still contain, y'know, the Flood though. Regardless, they have a tendency to explode. A lot.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Because it was lost in the aftermath of a couple posts while I was editing it, here's another note from yours truly.

    I think that in the end, despite all these arguments, in order for the Covenant to exist, the Halos need to also be available. It's why they exist. When the Halos are activated, everyone's screwed. Plain and simple. As said in my above post, nobody even needs to be aware of the Covenant's existence. They'll just waltz on over to an Installation, activate it, and bam: everyone dies, the Covenant fulfills their goal, and the Imperium is wiped from the face of existence.
    How? The Covenant can't activate Halo. Only a Reclaimer can do that.
    I don'tunderstand your assertion that the Covies have enough numbers either. Sure, they have a large portion of the Orion Arm under their control, but the Imperium has practically the entire galaxy. It can lose BILLIONS of soldiers and not even care.
    I don't get this thread at all. Halo is my favorite Sci-Fi franchise, but it and 40k just exist on two massively different scales.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2012-09-15 at 12:15 AM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    The Covenant get their resources from Forerunner artifacts that humanity was never able to translate because the Covenant kind of blew them up.

    Superheated plasma wouldn't dissipate a ship, rather it would melt it.

    If there are no Halo rings, the Covenant won't be present. They have no reason to be there, they are clearly outmatched, and they won't bother. Thus, in order for the battle to occur, the rings must be present.



    The Covenant have no need to be present should the Great Journey not be possible. They'd keep a low profile, to say the least.



    Yup. Completely forgot about that. The Halos still contain, y'know, the Flood though. Regardless, they have a tendency to explode. A lot.
    Are you saying the Halo Installations have a tendency to explode and/or at random? That doesn't seem right to me. And even if it is the Flood who reveal themselves and proceed to envelope the Galaxy, the Covenant still lose, and the way I see it, the Imperium still wins, seeing as they have a much better chance of taking on the Flood (Talk about a threat worthy of the Space Marines).

    There's potential there even for a massive psychic conflict between the Gravemind and some psykers and Inquisitors (perhaps even the Spirit of the Emperor himself). Imagine if the telepathic link which connects the Flood were to be broken or shattered by the combined efforts of the Grey Knights and the Ordo Xenos,
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    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Are you saying the Halo Installations have a tendency to explode and/or at random? That doesn't seem right to me.
    He was joking. Only two Halos have been destroyed, and one was incomplete and was only destroyed because it fired before it had the integrity to withstand the energy blast.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2012-09-15 at 12:18 AM.
    New World: What's it about? Fencing Fighting. True Love. Strong Hate. Harsh Revenge. A Few Giants. Lot's of Bad Men. Lot's of Good Men., Two or Three Beautiful Women. Beasties Monstrous and Gentle. Some Swell Escapes and Captures. Death, Lies, Truth, Miracles and a Little Sex. In short, it's about Pokemon.here

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    How? The Covenant can't activate Halo. Only a Reclaimer can do that.
    I don'tunderstand your assertion that the Covies have enough numbers either. Sure, they have a large portion of the Orion Arm under their control, but the Imperium has practically the entire galaxy. It can lose BILLIONS of soldiers and not even care.
    I don't get this thread at all. Halo is my favorite Sci-Fi franchise, but it and 40k just exist on two massively different scales.
    I was thinking this earlier. This is a faction that has developed for about 2k years. The Imperium, well, it's had about 40k. The Covenant only ever steamrolled humanity while the Imperium faced off against way too many foes.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    He was joking. Only two Halos have been destroyed, and one was incomplete and was only destroyed because it fired before it had the integrity to withstand the energy blast.
    Bingo!
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I was thinking this earlier. This is a faction that has developed for about 2k years. The Imperium, well, it's had about 40k. The Covenant only ever steamrolled humanity while the Imperium faced off against way too many foes.



    Bingo!
    Glad to see we have at least one Halo fan who isn't entirely intractable. I may not be a huge fan of the games, but there's a reason I read Fall of Reach and the Flood, and it's because I like the universe they're set in, or more to the point, the character of Master Chief as he is portrayed in the novels, and of course Cortana.

    Really, I like to think that Halo is actually a precursor to 40k. That the Spartans are the distant ancestors of the Adeptus Astartes, and the events of Halo take place in what the Imperium refers to as the Dark Age of Technology (though according to Halo's timeline they take place during the Age of Terra, much earlier).
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
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    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    As awesome as that sounds, there is a serious flaw to that theory: the Halo-verse has no magic.
    Steam username is Triscuitable.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    As awesome as that sounds, there is a serious flaw to that theory: the Halo-verse has no magic.
    The Halo-verse has no magic . . . yet!

    Think of it, as humanity expands across the stars a burgeoning young empire just brimming with life and energy and emotion . . . ripe for exploitation for the budding forces of Chaos. Content for thousands of years to exist simply as subcurrents of roiling emotion in a dimension beyond the conceptualization of even the Covenant, the expansion of the humanity and their combined will and emotion is the trigger for the apotheosis of the Gods of Chaos.

    Some time in the 8th or 9th millenia, humanity begins to change. Authorities notice a considerable uptick in noticeable mutations amongst human populations. Though initially unconcerned as many of these are treatable with genetic screening or advanced cosmetic surgery, with each successive generation some of the mutations begin to grow stronger, more aberrant, and there is increasing concern that this is a marked change in human evolutionary biology. Humanity however continues to spread and develop it's technology and engage in all of its same vices and sins and the Gods of Chaos grow stronger.

    Over the next few centuries, things begin to get a little more strange. Despite advancements in Slipspace technology, the old woes of strange time distortions and other phenomena are becoming increasingly common. Scientific minds begin to develop SlipSpace technology that can generate and preserve fields of real space around crafts, but the idea that slipspace is radically altering is quite a frightening prospect. On top of that, the various mutations humanity experiences have begun to manifest in rudimentary and nascent psychic and telepathic powers. Government programs to control and develop these 'psykers' are established, and they prove to be vastly effective in helping to navigate the new travails of Slipspace, as well as communicating over the vast distances of the far flung human empire.

    Little do they realize that humanity's development as a psychically attuned race only further fuels the power of the Chaos Gods, who have now taken on distinct personas and aspects all their own to better manipulate and influence the various races of the Galaxy. Eventually, Daemons begin to manifest by possessing human psykers and humanity struggles to come to grips with the ramifications represented by these creatures apparently from a darker, more superstitious part of human history. Though the new psy development programs do their best to condition psykers against these 'extradimensional psychosomatic anomolies', and reassure the public, some of the daemons are wilier than others. They begin to act as mouthpieces for the Gods of Chaos, forming cults and worshippers, sewing unrest and dividing humanity against itself into various political and cultural factions. Slipspace dimensions are now realms of nightmarish temporal and physical distortion, and have begun to have a visibly 'warping' effect on areas of real space (the first Warp Storms).

    Unable to cope with these new trials and terrors, whatever organizational structure that was holding humanity together collapses in on itself and the various regions of the galaxy factionalize, with numerous conflicts and civil struggles erupting everywhere far enough from Earth to resist it's influence. This internal strife on a near galactic scale only causes the Chaos Gods to become stronger, and in their new strength full blown Warp Storms erupt across the galaxy, further dividing the human factions and bringing them face to face with fully manifested Chaos Demons for the first time. The Age of Strife has begun.

    From their, we know the rest. The Fall of the Eldar causes the birth of the Chaos God Slaanesh, resulting in the quieting of the warp storms isolating Terra, where the Emperor has been born and now leads his glorious crusade across the galaxy, etc. etc.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-15 at 02:38 AM.
    Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:
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    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Have you considered writing for the expanded Halo-verse?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Have you considered writing for the expanded Halo-verse?
    I've considered writing for just about every game system and universe out there (tabletop and electronic) but have never had the courage to apply anywhere. It's always been a hobby really. I've only submitted a handful of pieces to anything resembling a publishing source, or else campaigns for Pathfinder, M&M, and World of Darkness, and Warhammer (40k and Fantasy) and every other system I've played XD
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    • Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.
    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
    • We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    I smell crossover fan-fic time!
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    So Master Chief is the Emperor?

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    "No, John....you are a Space Marine."
    And then Master Chief was the Emperor.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Mention of 'Squats' has been declared Hereticus Maximumus by the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition. There are no such thing as 'Squats' and never have been.They were eaten by Tyranids anyways, not wiped out by the Imperium.
    5th ed has finally clarified that there are abhumans, called homo rotundus, sometimes called squats, still around.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Clearly, heretics infiltrated the printing offices.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    If anyone is the God Emperor, it's obviously Sergeant Johnson.

    I mean come on guys.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    You know I was just in the process of crunching those numbers myself? It seems to me that the only comparable weaponry the Covenant have to a standard Imperial Lance battery are the Energy Projectors aboard their Super Carriers. And as you pointed out, Void Shields are designed to prevent those same lances from reaching the soon to be gooey starship exterior hull plating.
    But where are you getting these numbers from? What is the benchmark (ie the deed) that a Lance Battery has done.

    My benchmark (like admittedly most for 40k) is the Cain books where Imperial Lance Strikes are used like tactical nukes with comparable scale. They could carry out say an Exterminatus order... exactly like the Covenant carries out glassing a planet. Unless the Covenant has special glassing only guns I'm not aware of I'm seeing parity there. And since they can take hits like that I'm seeing a reasonably even direct fight allowing the Covenant's higher deployed numbers and superior mobility to win in space.

    Now the Imperium has better weapons out there like the Nova Cannon, which if what I've read is accurate is a big arsed railgun type weapon. The Super MACs on humanity's defense stations seem the analogue there, able to one shot covenant vessels. However much like being on a stable platform Nova Cannons are bow mounted and rare enough that countering them is a basic strategy, flank them with a few ships at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Pretty much. The only tactic that we could come up with was the Covenant using hit and run tactics and suicide ships to destroy worlds. And even that does nothing to prevent the Imperium from taking over Covenant worlds and defending against the suicide ships.
    I brought it up in response to an elaborate undertaking by the Imperium to disable the Covenant's leadership, pointing out this is in fact easier in reverse.

    I'm not talking about Colony Dropping their huge ships on Imperium worlds. but on Terra itself. The Imperium has a lynchpin in that the only way it can navigate as well as it can is because of the Astronomicon, located on Earth and which the Emperor is an integral piece of machinery within. If you ruin Holy Terra its not a just a socio-political problem, but an immediate engineering one across the entire Imperium. Suddenly you've turned the Imperium into the Tau, isolated sections of humanity will hold out but the galactic frays apart at a stroke.

    Now I'm not even suggesting this as something that would happen, but as a story its far more reliable and simpler to accomplish then taking out the Covernant's leadership as a way to victory. I don't think either should be considered to happen, because they become stories not assessments of capability.

    Speaking of the suicide ships I believe that the ground defenses would be enough to reduce them to slag so that the damage is minimized.
    Conservation of Mass + Gravity = Planetary Devastation

    There's almost nothing the Imperium can do because you need to prove Nu Gundam isn't just for show stop the mass from falling which could be done with enough range, but the Covenant FTL jumps disallow this method. Blowing it apart could help through dispersal, but for the size I'm not impressed. And the precision achieved suggests that a Covenant could jump in with literally seconds to a high speed impact so no mass is going anywhere.

    Mind you for anything BUT Holy Terra and ONLY Holy Terra I'd call it a probable waste of resources. But this is another reason I describe the Imperium as a rotting corpse, its utter fail at technology opens it to this sort of devastation by needing a highly stupid system to operate. Simply intolerable for a major space empire.

    Heck if I remember correctly the Golden Throne is known to be living on borrowed time and the Tech-priests can't fix it. The whole Imperium had best hope the Star-Child idea is true after all.

    Soras your example is silly. The Space Marines would secure orbit first before deploying and could do so easily via boarding torpedoes and teleporters since the Covenant ships have to get well within the Battle Barge's range.
    If they could secure orbit then they aren't operating alone because no single Battle Barge is going to do that. And then you could just lance the target without sending in the Marine to begin with. A different example of how strategically irrelevant they are.

    Actually IIRC a Battle Barge implies a pretty heavy commitment from a Chapter to begin with. I understand the norm in-universe is detached squads of a handful of Marines, with even the army list as sort of a contrivance on the part of Games Workshop. Which by points suggests a much larger but far less individually potent force more like the Sisters of Battle then the Space Marines. Ironically I'd probably have higher regard for them that way. If the Marine ran less on nebulous qualities like undescribed heroism and more on being say 5% of Imperial forces (heck 1%) they could actually plausibly be protecting the Imperium as a mighty hammer to work with the IG mighty wall.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    A lot got posted while I was offline, but I have a few points I'd like to make which I think are pretty telling in the Imperium's favor.


    Number 1:
    To address the issue of how many Space Marines there are and how relevant they are in galactic conflict, it would seem to me to be self-evident that they are relevant on a galactic scale, given the number of times Space Marines have done what no normal soldiers could have done in order to avert galactic calamities. For references, please see the last 5,000 years of Imperial History.

    Every Space Marine is a hero of a dozen battles, has fought in hundreds more, and is a xenocidal zealot to put even the most fanatical Brute or Elite to shame. That the Space Marines have heroes and commanders amongst their ranks who are placed on a pedestal above even these gods among insects speak volumes. Master Chief is the whole reason the Covenant were defeated. Sure, her got really, really lucky and had Cortana backing him up, but the running theme in the Halo series is that maybe it wasn't so much a question of luck with John, but of fate.

    Now consider that there are Space Marine heroes out their like Marneus Calagar, Captain Darnath Lysander, Captain Aurellius (a Grey Knight), and perhaps dozens of others, it really doesn't seem fair to say that maybe the Covenant are just the opportunity some Space Marine out their needs to heroically sacrifice himself in an action which decimates a whole Covenant fleet or brings about the death of the High Council.

    As for the numbers of the Space Marines, each Space Marine Chapter totals somewhere between 1,000 and 10,000 Space Marines (numbers fluctuate wildly depending on the chapter in question), but not much greater than that since once a Chapter gets that large, it's host is separated and a new Chapter founded (to prevent another Heresy situation). Their were originally 36 Chapters at the time of the Second Founding. Since then, that number has spiraled into the hundreds, so at any given time I'd say their are between hundreds of thousands and a million or so Space Marines.

    Number 2:
    It was brought up that if the Imperium has the might to truly crush any of it's foes, it would do so, and that if the Covenant can establish themselves as a threat, they can remain as such as the Imperium will not be able to muster the necessary power at any one time in order to defeat them.

    First of all, I would not consider that a sufficient Threshold to consider the Covenant 'victorious' and I don't think the Prophets would either. We're talking about a culture of religious fanatics at least as xenocidal as the Imperium itself. If you think the Covenant will settle for a dominion a couple of subsectors big when their are still humans ready to wage war against them, you're wrong.

    Next, I would like to point out that there are specific reasons for each other faction that prevent their annihilation at the hands of any other faction (reasons not shared by the Covenant), and secondly, the Imperium has more or less built its history on the piecemeal annihilation of smaller alien cultures and species, and that several of these races are referenced as extinct or 'prior threats' in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th edition rule books. Some of these were pre-heresey, and other have since been eliminated right into the present 41st milleniun.

    The point however remains that the other factions in 40k have specific reasons the Imperium of Man cannot just muster a force large enough to exterminate them and then do so:
    1. Chaos Legions- Aside from the fact that there are literally an inexhaustible number of Daemons inhabiting the Warp, the Chaos Space Marines hide in the Eye of Terror and launch period raids and crusades into Imperial Space. They also draw cultist and heretic humans from the Imperium itself.
    2. Eldar- Both Craftworld and Dark Eldar use the Webway to remain hidden and never commit to large scale engagements or campaigns which would endanger the survival of their species.
    3. Necron- The homeworlds of the Necron are unknown to the Empire, and they similarly make us of the webway (like the Eldar). Furthermore, the Necrons are the only truly immortal species as any Necrons who are beyond repair in the battlefield teleport back to their tombworld for full reconstruction. As far as we know, their could only be a few million Necrons in the entire Galaxy, but because you need a Blackstone Fortress to truly kill them, they remain an omnipresent threat.
    4. Tau- Do not openly court hostilities with the Imperials and in fact actively sue for peace and engage in what are at least tenuous diplomatic negotiations with the IoM. These are the best analogue, I think, for the Covenant, since they are a relatively small threat which the Imperium has knowledge of, but has not mustered the resources yet to 'deal' with, largely since they are distracted by the local Ork Waaagh! and the nearby vicinity of Hivefleet Behemoth, which are both radically more pressing matters in that region of space than a largely peaceable socialist 'empire'.


    You'll notice that Tyranids and Orks are not themselves on that list, and that is because they have are of a rather unique situation, in that the Imperium has in fact annihilated both factions piecemeal on several occasions (several of which in greater numbers boasted by the Covenant).

    Why do they continue to be a major faction then? Because they come back. The orcs are sort of like the flood in that just a couple of ork spores (yes they reproduce like fungus) can take root on a world and grow into a fully fledged Waaaagh! in a matter of months (and they don't even have to infect sentient life to do it!). The Tyranids are similar in that they are the masters of recycling losses and can regurgitate both allied and enemy biomatter into a whole new Hivefleet if given any sort of quarter. It should also be noted that they are an extra galactic invader, and that while Hivefleet Leviathan (which consisted of billions of Tyranid ships and troops) was crushed, Hive Fleet Behemoth has proved a much more insidious foe.

    The Covenant are both like the Tau in that they are a relatively small faction (with superior FTL technology I might add), but they are in no way peaceful and are exceedingly likely to begin a crusade into Imperial Space that will earn them top marks in the Ordo Xenos's **** list. Moreover, unlike the Orks or the Tyranids, they cannot recoup losses by mass reproduction, or consumption of planets natural resources. They train soldiers and build ships and weapons at a rate which would seem not drastically faster than the Imperium. In other words, they are at a severe disadvantage logistically, and are just crazy enough to get themselves killed and quickly.
    Before you answer ask any more questions Soras, I'd like to direct your attention to this post I had earlier, which believe overwhelmingly demonstrates why the Covenant could never cut it as a major player in the 40k universe.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Before you answer ask any more questions Soras, I'd like to direct your attention to this post I had earlier, which believe overwhelmingly demonstrates why the Covenant could never cut it as a major player in the 40k universe.
    Well let's see:

    -Space Marines standard is a round 1000 chapters of 1000, that's what I've always heard over a decade of being familiar with 40k. Even in the time of the Empire it wasn't that different just they were organized in the 20 (18) bigger Legions for a single purpose. There's some play, but in the thousands or hundreds of thousands when they need billions or trillions for the whole galaxy basis. There are fewer Space Marines then there are worlds in the Imperium. That's just unacceptable. Like I said at one point, they should ALL be in some unified purpose like defending Cadia or maybe Terra. As is all the real work defending the Imperium is done by the PDFs and IG, in that order.

    -I'm not seeing much of a point about the factions. The Imperium is dying little by little. All the other factions ARE killing it. The Imperium holds Maccaggre, that's one world barely held while hundreds (or whatever) more were lost. And guess what happens, those lost worlds are not reclaimed because either the Hive Fleet stripped them bare or the Exterminatus did. Imperial "victories" are all Pyrrhic, they survive but they don't win. This fundamental lack of hope is why its the namer of GRIMDARK, because its not a matter of if but when the Imperium is torn apart and by whom. In the end I'm not seeing anything that obviate the idea that the Imperium doesn't finish its enemies because it can't.

    -You are off about spores, spores create periodic Ork problems on worlds defended but they are "feral" orks and the like. They keep the Ork species going because they reduce the need for "civilization" on worlds the Orks have long held. Ork Waaghs come from when the already massive Ork holdings (in excess of the Imperium) decide to expand.

    -So the goal post is that the Covenant has to beat the Imperium? Fine they engage in a reasonably well planned centuries long campaign to do that. They fought the UNSC for 28 years, they clearly know long term planning and not being stupid in doing so by say overextending themselves. Keep the Halos unknown or non-existant and then nobody tries to start the Great Journey so it becomes a long range goal of the Covenant appropriate to the scale of the task. Either this goal peters out in the complications of the other concerns of the 40k verse (though parity with the Imperium means parity with them since everyone fights everyone) or becomes another steady force tearing the Imperium apart.

    Lots can happen in that time though, I consider galactic conquest a question to big to be meaningful. For example the Covenant have at least a better grasp on science then the Martian Idiot Cult since they've made for example advancements over the years. They may not advance as quickly as they perhaps should, but they aren't outright static and monolithic as their religious basis would normally suggest in a story either. However I don't feel right speculating on where their tech would go or can go. Or maybe they break for internal reasons like happened in story.

    Then again maybe five years into the war the Golden Throne breaks (it will by canon on 40k end) and the Astronomicon runs out of fuel as the Emperor is truly gone.

    If they can survive what the Imperium is going to actually muster short term then the Covernant can survive long term. If the Imperium show heretofore untold initiative or can magically ignore its own problems (external and internal) then it can turn around and muster the forces it needs to do crush the Covenant sure. That's not victory because that would require it not being what it fundamentally is not in my book. Functional.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Well let's see:

    -Space Marines standard is a round 1000 chapters of 1000, that's what I've always heard over a decade of being familiar with 40k. Even in the time of the Empire it wasn't that different just they were organized in the 20 (18) bigger Legions for a single purpose. There's some play, but in the thousands or hundreds of thousands when they need billions or trillions for the whole galaxy basis. There are fewer Space Marines then there are worlds in the Imperium. That's just unacceptable. Like I said at one point, they should ALL be in some unified purpose like defending Cadia or maybe Terra. As is all the real work defending the Imperium is done by the PDFs and IG, in that order.

    -I'm not seeing much of a point about the factions. The Imperium is dying little by little. All the other factions ARE killing it. The Imperium holds Maccaggre, that's one world barely held while hundreds (or whatever) more were lost. And guess what happens, those lost worlds are not reclaimed because either the Hive Fleet stripped them bare or the Exterminatus did. Imperial "victories" are all Pyrrhic, they survive but they don't win. This fundamental lack of hope is why its the namer of GRIMDARK, because its not a matter of if but when the Imperium is torn apart and by whom. In the end I'm not seeing anything that obviate the idea that the Imperium doesn't finish its enemies because it can't.

    -You are off about spores, spores create periodic Ork problems on worlds defended but they are "feral" orks and the like. They keep the Ork species going because they reduce the need for "civilization" on worlds the Orks have long held. Ork Waaghs come from when the already massive Ork holdings (in excess of the Imperium) decide to expand.

    -So the goal post is that the Covenant has to beat the Imperium? Fine they engage in a reasonably well planned centuries long campaign to do that. They fought the UNSC for 28 years, they clearly know long term planning and not being stupid in doing so by say overextending themselves. Keep the Halos unknown or non-existant and then nobody tries to start the Great Journey so it becomes a long range goal of the Covenant appropriate to the scale of the task. Either this goal peters out in the complications of the other concerns of the 40k verse (though parity with the Imperium means parity with them since everyone fights everyone) or becomes another steady force tearing the Imperium apart.

    Lots can happen in that time though, I consider galactic conquest a question to big to be meaningful. For example the Covenant have at least a better grasp on science then the Martian Idiot Cult since they've made for example advancements over the years. They may not advance as quickly as they perhaps should, but they aren't outright static and monolithic as their religious basis would normally suggest in a story either. However I don't feel right speculating on where their tech would go or can go. Or maybe they break for internal reasons like happened in story.

    Then again maybe five years into the war the Golden Throne breaks (it will by canon on 40k end) and the Astronomicon runs out of fuel as the Emperor is truly gone.

    If they can survive what the Imperium is going to actually muster short term then the Covernant can survive long term. If the Imperium show heretofore untold initiative or can magically ignore its own problems (external and internal) then it can turn around and muster the forces it needs to do crush the Covenant sure. That's not victory because that would require it not being what it fundamentally is not in my book. Functional.
    So your argument boils down to the fact that the Imperium is already in a long term state of defeat against the various forces arrayed against it and the Covenant would just be another coffin nail?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Honest question; I thought half the thing with the covenant was that they DON'T understand their own tech very well because it's all just reclaimed Forerunner tech and exactly like the imperium, they have a religious taboo or something in actually looking into it?

    Wasn't one of their themes specifically a complete lack of critical introspection and understanding of their own technology and goals?
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-09-15 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Honest question; I thought half the thing with the covenant was that they DON'T understand their own tech very well because it's all just reclaimed Forerunner tech and exactly like the imperium, they have a religious taboo or something in actually looking into it?

    Wasn't one of their themes specifically a complete lack of critical introspection and understanding of their own technology and goals?
    Oh my yes.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    So your argument boils down to the fact that the Imperium is already in a long term state of defeat against the various forces arrayed against it and the Covenant would just be another coffin nail?
    For the sort of biggest long term picture yes.

    The Imperium is doomed, save that the Emperor is really a nascent Chaos God trapped by the Golden Throne that can fix everything once it breaks. Or given the Necron retcon... maybe the 'Nids and Orks stopping being allowed to magically ignore how they shouldn't work at all. Something.

    For my money as long as they rely on the Martian Idiot Cult though the outlook of the Imperium is bleak since they can't reclaim what they've lost.

    And they are officially going to need to replace the Astronomicon... but watch Games Workshop put that off forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Honest question; I thought half the thing with the covenant was that they DON'T understand their own tech very well because it's all just reclaimed Forerunner tech and exactly like the imperium, they have a religious taboo or something in actually looking into it?

    Wasn't one of their themes specifically a complete lack of critical introspection and understanding of their own technology and goals?
    Yes, my thought on the difference is we know they've made advances over the years. The Arbiter's armor had older, less effective cloaking, ergo the new stuff was improved.

    And I can't find signs of say thinking that incense is a nessecary part of the propitiating the machine spirits. So they are better off then the Imperium in this regard
    Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-09-15 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    For the sort of biggest long term picture yes.

    The Imperium is doomed, save that the Emperor is really a nascent Chaos God trapped by the Golden Throne that can fix everything once it breaks. Or given the Necron retcon... maybe the 'Nids and Orks stopping being allowed to magically ignore how they shouldn't work at all. Something.

    For my money as long as they rely on the Martian Idiot Cult though the outlook of the Imperium is bleak since they can't reclaim what they've lost.

    And they are officially going to need to replace the Astronomicon... but watch Games Workshop put that off forever.
    Then you're not really engaging in the argument at all are you?

    You're not even giving the Imperium a fair chance from the get go. You just assume their doom is inevitable (which canonically speaking it might be) and shape the rest of your deductions about their military capacity against a foe like the Covenant around that core assumption.

    To you there's no way the Imperium can beat the Covenant because they are already a defeated power in the Galaxy and just waiting to die (or for some miracle to save them).

    Except, that even in their decrepit dying state, the Imperium still regularly musters the might to annihilate Hive Fleets, destroy Waaaaghs! and push the Legions of Chaos back into the Eye of Terror. Even if it's just prolonging their death, the Imperium has demonstrated the ability to thoroughly crush enemy forces twice and triple the size and military might of the Covenant on more than a few occasions since the Horus Heresey, and I see no reason why the Covenant won't go the way of Hive Fleet Kraken, numerous Ork Waaaghs! or the Egarians, the Cimmeriac, the Laer, the Vrakk, the Bale Childer, or the Jorgal or any other of a dozens xenos the Imperium of man has exterminated since the 39th Millennium.

    The Covenant engaged in a 30 year Campaign with a technologically inferior force whom they outnumbered at nearly every major engagement and still managed to lose. Do you honestly think they will prevail over a technologically comparable force that vastly outnumbers them?

    For that matter, by your own argument, the Covenant are just as likely to lose as the Imperium, since as you pointed out, they sow the seeds of their own destruction in their religious zealotry that sparks a civil war. If the Imperium is engaged in a long term inevitable defeat, the Covenant are nigh suicidal by comparison, given what they are willing to sacrifice in order to pursue the Great Journey.
    Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-15 at 05:12 PM.
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    • No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.
    • When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.
    • Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.
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