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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    For that matter, by your own argument, the Covenant are just as likely to lose as the Imperium, since as you pointed out, they sow the seeds of their own destruction in their religious zealotry that sparks a civil war. If the Imperium is engaged in a long term inevitable defeat, the Covenant are nigh suicidal by comparison, given what they are willing to sacrifice in order to pursue the Great Journey.
    It's more complicated than that, as one faction of the covenant joined up because they'd have kicked it's ass otherwise and the only ones who kind of know what the great journey is are the prophets, the rest pretty much think it's an actual journey.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    It's more complicated than that, as one faction of the covenant joined up because they'd have kicked it's ass otherwise and the only ones who kind of know what the great journey is are the prophets, the rest pretty much think it's an actual journey.
    The point being that the Covenant is convoluted and lying to it's own citizens in exactly the same way the Imperium does in order to keep things running smoothly enough for it to function. Except the Imperium seems much more effective at rooting out heresy rather than letting it spiral out of control and bringing about it's eventual defeat (which is pretty sad given how the Imperium is otherwise a bureaucratic ineffectual nightmare). At least the Inquisition can get things done!

    Or else, you could say that's what the Horus Heresy was, it's just that it's taking the Imperium thousands of years following that civil war, and it took the Covenant . . . how long after the Sangheili rebelled were they defeated? A matter of months?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    The point being that the Covenant is convoluted and lying to it's own citizens in exactly the same way the Imperium does in order to keep things running smoothly enough for it to function. Except the Imperium seems much more effective at rooting out heresy rather than letting it spiral out of control and bringing about it's eventual defeat (which is pretty sad given how the Imperium is otherwise a bureaucratic ineffectual nightmare). At least the Inquisition can get things done!

    Or else, you could say that's what the Horus Heresy was, it's just that it's taking the Imperium thousands of years following that civil war, and it took the Covenant . . . how long after the Sangheili rebelled were they defeated? A matter of months?
    They were facing the Flood and Humans too though. It's not as if the Sangheili just beat the Loyalists all by themselves.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    They were facing the Flood and Humans too though. It's not as if the Sangheili just beat the Loyalists all by themselves.
    So, Flood + Sangheili + remaining UNSC forces = Destruction of the Covenant.

    Got it.

    Are we saying we don't think the Imperium of Man can't muster a force inside of 30 years to rival that combined strength?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    So, Flood + Sangheili + remaining UNSC forces = Destruction of the Covenant.

    Got it.

    Are we saying we don't think the Imperium of Man can't muster a force inside of 30 years to rival that combined strength?
    Don't get on me. I'm not arguing that the Covenant would win. I'm just trying to demonstrate the facts accurately.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    I'm not entirely sure how directly relevant the flood even were in the downfall of the covenant, except coincidentally and as part of the reason that the prophets turned on the Elites.

    edit - The downfall of the covenant isn't about the elites beating the loyalists. The covenant falls, or rather is broken, when the Sangheli learn about the Prophets betrayal and their new favourites the brutes massacring the elites on earth. (Finding out the truth behind the halo rings and the great journey was a catalyst of this and the cherry on the cake, because they seem to have fallen out of favour at least partly because of the sangheli rebels you take on as the arbiter who seem to suspect the truth of the great journey).

    Once Sangeheli turn on Brute/Prophet, the Covenant ceases to meaningfully exist and the only way forward is down. It also almost entirely happens because of the Prophets attitudes to those underneath them and the basic mismatch with the fanatical but essentially honourable Elites. (Despite being as dumb as bricks, the unquestioning and ammoral brutes make much better servants for the Prophets in that regard).
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-09-15 at 05:34 PM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Don't get on me. I'm not arguing that the Covenant would win. I'm just trying to demonstrate the facts accurately.
    Sorry spy, I was agreeing with you, just directing that question more at Soras, who seems to be the primary holdout.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Then you're not really engaging in the argument at all are you?

    You're not even giving the Imperium a fair chance from the get go. You just assume their doom is inevitable (which canonically speaking it might be) and shape the rest of your deductions about their military capacity against a foe like the Covenant around that core assumption.
    Hardly. But its disingenuous to the setting to make the Imperium functional.

    Which means that while their resources on paper are infinite and they have all the cool toys... they simply don't have a lot of the things actually available in any sort of reliable way. And many of the ones they do aren't nessecarily better then modern tech as far as business end destruction goes.

    Now yes the Imperium can still muster some pretty overwhelming force numbers but those numbers have limits in and of themselves. That's why the Tau survive and have one of the better outlooks, if you are too tough a nut to crack the Imperium in a strategic since can and will decide you aren't worth the effort and will go back to fighting the rest. Sure probably won't be "peace" but while it may be non functional the Imperium still has the remnants of a full galactic empire. It shouldn't fall outright in pure force to anything but the same.

    The Empire or Old Republic of SW fame that's the sort of faction should have the scale to fairly have the condition of actually eliminating the IoM. For lesser powers, if the only thing left is that the Imperium buries them with weight of numbers that's not a victory of any worth for the Imperium because they had no advantage they just had scale

    To you there's no way the Imperium can beat the Covenant because they are already a defeated power in the Galaxy and just waiting to die (or for some miracle to save them).
    Hardly.

    If say the average IG trooper came with power armor and a bolter you'd have a different ballgame entirely as far as infantry goes. The Imperium does have the advantage in mechanized combat as the Leman Russ is a real tank and by all signs I've seen the Wraith is not.

    However in perhaps the most important of all I'm not finding that the Imperium actually sends fleets in a hundreds range (dozens maybe) or what puts them as tough and powerful enough to correct this. They are already at a total FTL disadvantage which properly applied only makes thing worse.

    Neither side can win a ground battle in the long run without space being at least contested.

    The Covenant engaged in a 30 year Campaign with a technologically inferior force whom they outnumbered at nearly every major engagement and still managed to lose. Do you honestly think they will prevail over a technologically comparable force that vastly outnumbers them?

    For that matter, by your own argument, the Covenant are just as likely to lose as the Imperium, since as you pointed out, they sow the seeds of their own destruction in their religious zealotry that sparks a civil war. If the Imperium is engaged in a long term inevitable defeat, the Covenant are nigh suicidal by comparison, given what they are willing to sacrifice in order to pursue the Great Journey.
    Given that the gap between the different humans on a practical level is very small, and the Covenant didn't loose to the UNSC I don't see it that way at all.

    From the looks of it the Covenant's downfall (assuming they aren't recovering in Halo 4) can be traced pretty directly to individual decisions and small story driven turn of events.

    Now sure could the same sort of pressures build, yeah. But the Covenant doesn't default to being divided between a morass of a thousand conflicting concerns the way the Imperium does. Now being in the 40k verse they should gain a bunch just like the Tau have, but that's why I don't think the Covenant are going to more then add to the mess on the biggest scale.

    Mutual survivial is the net result in my book before it gets to complicated to assess, but given the general attitudes toward absolute Imperium superiority that means in effect a victory for the Covenant. Winning by weight of numbers is meaningless in and of itself, its not a meaningful versus. Congrats, that's the least I would have expected for an ten thousand year old empire, even if it is a rotting corpse.

    I mean why not just put the IoM up against Modern Earth and claim victory because there's no space tech at present so one warship equals a loss through orbital bombardment. So what? Or because they the IoM sent a billion troops, yeah woo hoo praise the Golden Throne. I'd agree that Earth would loose but for me the fact that at least the US forces could take on their equivalent number of IG or say some bizzare setup that marooned a SM chapter here is the much more significant result.

    40k is massive, but its rating per capita works out to being terrible.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Now yes the Imperium can still muster some pretty overwhelming force numbers but those numbers have limits in and of themselves. That's why the Tau survive and have one of the better outlooks, if you are too tough a nut to crack the Imperium in a strategic since can and will decide you aren't worth the effort and will go back to fighting the rest. Sure probably won't be "peace" but while it may be non functional the Imperium still has the remnants of a full galactic empire. It shouldn't fall outright in pure force to anything but the same.
    The difference is that the Tau are smart enough not to poke the sleeping 500-megaton gorilla more than they have to, instead nibbling away at the edges where they can get away with it. The Covenant aren't that sensible.

    The Empire or Old Republic of SW fame that's the sort of faction should have the scale to fairly have the condition of actually eliminating the IoM. For lesser powers, if the only thing left is that the Imperium buries them with weight of numbers that's not a victory of any worth for the Imperium because they had no advantage they just had scale

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    So, Flood + Sangheili + remaining UNSC forces = Destruction of the Covenant.

    Got it.

    Are we saying we don't think the Imperium of Man can't muster a force inside of 30 years to rival that combined strength?
    Keeping in mind that the real destruction of the Covenant was when they lost the Sangheilians. They put so much effort into maintaining the Covenant that once they were lost, the stupid-as-all-hell Brutes had to take over for them.

    Let's also consider this: what's the battleground? Did the Covenant board an Imperium ship? Are two fleets battling in space? Did the Imperium land on a Covenant occupied Installation?

    What are the Covenant armed with? What soldiers are participating? Are they aware of the threat the Imperium poses? What are the Imperium armed with? How many do they have? Are they aware of the Covenant's presence?

    Should this be a faction-vs-faction or squad-vs-squad battle? It's easier to debate when we refine the facts.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    The difference is that the Tau are smart enough not to poke the sleeping 500-megaton gorilla more than they have to, instead nibbling away at the edges where they can get away with it. The Covenant aren't that sensible.
    Well if we make the mild setting concession that humanity of the IoM origin will not trigger as Reclaimers and threaten the fundamentals of the religion by their Forerunner connections the Covenant should prove a touch more tractable too.

    Obviously as filthy xenos and worse an alliance of mixed filthy xenos they'd not get along but given that as I understand it the Covenant only started with the Elite and Prophets they obviously are not actually as inherently xenophobic as the Imperium.

    Removing the specific lie from specific Prophets for a specific cause I'd not be surprised to see the Covenant try to absorb Imperials into its ranks.

    The Covenant really are a lot like the Tau, enough to almost make me suspicious if this is Starcraft all over again with a different twist or just a convergence of thought.

    'Quantity has a quality all of its own'. - Not actually said by Joseph Stalin, but attributed to him.
    For a certain comparable scale of resources that is a fair point I must admit.

    However if you just take the Imperium at face value as a galatic empire with unlimited resources its meaningless to put it up against anything lacking infinite resources... namely another galactic empire. It does the Imperium no credit when instead of spilling their enemies blood they drown them in a sea of their own.
    Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-09-15 at 09:12 PM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Keeping in mind that the real destruction of the Covenant was when they lost the Sangheilians. They put so much effort into maintaining the Covenant that once they were lost, the stupid-as-all-hell Brutes had to take over for them.

    Let's also consider this: what's the battleground? Did the Covenant board an Imperium ship? Are two fleets battling in space? Did the Imperium land on a Covenant occupied Installation?

    What are the Covenant armed with? What soldiers are participating? Are they aware of the threat the Imperium poses? What are the Imperium armed with? How many do they have? Are they aware of the Covenant's presence?

    Should this be a faction-vs-faction or squad-vs-squad battle? It's easier to debate when we refine the facts.
    Perhaps I should have quantified all this in the original post.

    Let's assume for the sake of the remaining argument that some point prior to the beginning of their war with the UNSC but after the formation of the Covenant, the entirety of their fleets and High Charity itself are swallowed in into Warp Space and spewed out somewhere on the fringes of Imperial Space in the Ultima Segmentum in the 41st Millennium. Say it's some sort of convoluted scheme by Tzeentch to bring about some convoluted and unknowable end.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Perhaps I should have quantified all this in the original post.

    Let's assume for the sake of the remaining argument that some point prior to the beginning of their war with the UNSC but after the formation of the Covenant, the entirety of their fleets and High Charity itself are swallowed in into Warp Space and spewed out somewhere on the fringes of Imperial Space in the Ultima Segmentum in the 41st Millennium. Say it's some sort of convoluted scheme by Tzeentch to bring about some convoluted and unknowable end.
    There's nothing convaluted about it.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    on the fringes of Imperial Space in the Ultima Segmentum in the 41st Millennium.
    Welcome to Ultramarine, Tyranid and Tau central?

    Correction, appearntly the Ultima Segementum includes more than I thought. Whole lot of stuff, really.
    Last edited by Kinslayer; 2012-09-15 at 09:47 PM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    This is why this is not a 'debate'. Power levels.

    Galactic Empire (SW)
    Imperium of Man (WH40k)





    UNSC (Halo)



    Since UNSC ships can damage Covenant ships - it was retconned in xso the UNSC could win a space battle or two).. there is no way to Covenant has the firepower to match up to the IoM. Nuff said.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Angel View Post
    Power levels.
    Galactic Empire (SW)
    Imperium of Man (WH40k)
    Err. There was a hundred-and-fifty pages of thread for SW v. 40k. v. ST. Do not drag that back up as an active debate. Please?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Perhaps I should have quantified all this in the original post.

    Let's assume for the sake of the remaining argument that some point prior to the beginning of their war with the UNSC but after the formation of the Covenant, the entirety of their fleets and High Charity itself are swallowed in into Warp Space and spewed out somewhere on the fringes of Imperial Space in the Ultima Segmentum in the 41st Millennium. Say it's some sort of convoluted scheme by Tzeentch to bring about some convoluted and unknowable end.
    Lacking the power base for or particular cause no war happens and the Covenant uses its high mobility to find some plump uninhabited and/or isolated planet then slowly rebuild their power base over several generations. Or maybe go a pirating across the galaxy with their superior FTL becoming nomadic. Or both.

    Depending on how the politics work out the event is either reconciled with the existing structure or it collapses to be replaced by something new. Either way net action is the same.

    Unless they feel the need to be as meddlesome as the Eldar, the Covenant can never even ping the auspex of anyone in the galaxy as important. Heck even if the do doubtful anyone cares for a few generations.

    Biggest variable is the production abilities abroad High Charity. Biggest ostensible threat is the if the 'Nids eat everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    There's nothing convaluted about it.
    He just loves hearing Grunts babble, like the rest of us.
    I'm thinking birthday party skull how about you? Children cheering for headshots are hilarious.
    Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-09-15 at 10:09 PM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    Err. There was a hundred-and-fifty pages of thread for SW v. 40k. v. ST. Do not drag that back up as an active debate. Please?
    Pretty please with chocolate frosted sugar coated cocoa bombs on top.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Pretty please with chocolate frosted sugar coated cocoa bombs on top.
    And sixteen grapefruits, a dozen bran muffins...
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Lacking the power base for or particular cause no war happens and the Covenant uses its high mobility to find some plump uninhabited and/or isolated planet then slowly rebuild their power base over several generations. Or maybe go a pirating across the galaxy with their superior FTL becoming nomadic. Or both.

    Depending on how the politics work out the event is either reconciled with the existing structure or it collapses to be replaced by something new. Either way net action is the same.

    Unless they feel the need to be as meddlesome as the Eldar, the Covenant can never even ping the auspex of anyone in the galaxy as important. Heck even if the do doubtful anyone cares for a few generations.

    Biggest variable is the production abilities abroad High Charity. Biggest ostensible threat is the if the 'Nids eat everything.



    I'm thinking birthday party skull how about you? Children cheering for headshots are hilarious.
    I think the lore is pretty clear that the Covenant don't just sit around and bide their time. They go on the offensive at the earliest opportunity and either incorporate it into the Covenant or they exterminate it. Again, like the Tau, except the Tau don't pick fights they can't win. The covenant are just the opposite. They pick fights with anything that comes across their path and sacrifice whatever is necessary in order to achieve victory. That is the entire history of the Covenant's great journey prior to the events of Halo, so you can damn well bet that's going to be where and how they start in the 40k universe.

    Now, whether they find some pliable xenos species to incorporate is pretty likely, but you can damn well bet it's not going to be before they run across the Imperium or any other great power that they're just not going to be able to beat.

    How much more evidence do you need man?

    Standard Imperial Lance batteries melt through ships double or triple the size of the average Covenant craft.

    Their are hundreds of Space Marine heroes the equal or better of Master Chief who was a key force in bringing about the downfall of the Covenant.

    The Covenant have absolutely no defense against the psykers of the Imperium or any other species.

    Face it, they're a feather weight in what is a Super Heavy Weight melee. They just don't operate on the same scale as the standard 40k powers even if they have comparable technology.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    I think the lore is pretty clear that the Covenant don't just sit around and bide their time. They go on the offensive at the earliest opportunity and either incorporate it into the Covenant or they exterminate it. Again, like the Tau, except the Tau don't pick fights they can't win. The covenant are just the opposite. They pick fights with anything that comes across their path and sacrifice whatever is necessary in order to achieve victory. That is the entire history of the Covenant's great journey prior to the events of Halo, so you can damn well bet that's going to be where and how they start in the 40k universe.
    Uh, no. The Covenant are not stupidly suicidal. The only time the Covenant ever lose massive amounts of ships are either during battles like Reach where they win anyway, or very rare times when they fall into a trap. They are not omnicidal and they are not willing to fight literally anything no matter the cost. In fact, the reason the Covenant was formed was because the Sangheili and San 'Shyuum realized that their massive bloody war against each other was leading to nowhere except mutual obliteration, and called a cease-fire to end the pointless killing.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    My point is that the covenant is only a single tier above the UNSC, enough that they can smash the latter's ships with ease, but with with effort the latter can kill the ships of the former. (Thank you retconned space battles.)

    The Imperium of Man has firepower that is generally agreed upon as one 'tier' lower than the Galactic Empire.

    The Galactic Empire is way above the UNSC.

    Thus, the Covenant is fairly below the Imperium, let alone Necrons, with the Nids being a Out of Context Problem for the Covenant. (If the Covvies had problems with the flood in space, then they will loathe the Nids.)

    The only locals I can accept having trouble with the Covenant is the Tau, and even then the Tau are a few 'tiers' above the covenant.
    Last edited by Fallen Angel; 2012-09-16 at 01:58 AM.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    I think the lore is pretty clear that the Covenant don't just sit around and bide their time. They go on the offensive at the earliest opportunity and either incorporate it into the Covenant or they exterminate it. Again, like the Tau, except the Tau don't pick fights they can't win. The covenant are just the opposite. They pick fights with anything that comes across their path and sacrifice whatever is necessary in order to achieve victory. That is the entire history of the Covenant's great journey prior to the events of Halo, so you can damn well bet that's going to be where and how they start in the 40k universe.
    Who's sitting around? Taking steps to restore your resource base is a very active step. Repopulating your species is an active step. Building up a new empire is a very active step. A society place under such pressure is going to look inward first. The greatest threat is a Schism on High Charity and the Covenant but however that plays out you can bet who's left is going to care about surival of their species foremost and rebuilding.

    You seem convinced the Covenant must act with suicidal stupidity. Why?

    Now, whether they find some pliable xenos species to incorporate is pretty likely, but you can damn well bet it's not going to be before they run across the Imperium or any other great power that they're just not going to be able to beat.
    They don't have to beat them when they can out range every ship in the Imperium.

    Its not a match up anymore. The Covenant have no reason to take on something as huge as the Imperium with no resources and vastly reduced population. Of course it would likely take a long while before the Imperium even recognized they exist to. Much less do the work of tracking down the y'know FTL-capable High Charity.

    How much more evidence do you need man?

    Standard Imperial Lance batteries melt through ships double or triple the size of the average Covenant craft.
    So they melt through ships of their own size then?

    While Imperial ships top out at 8 kms for their big battleships, when into the more common ships you see 4-5 km ranges down to escort frigates I saw quoted at only 750m. While the Covenant has ships below the supercarrier still measuring 5 km, another at 3 km. So yeah as far as scale goes I'm not seeing a size. Maybe the Imperial fleet is reliant on void shields over armor

    Of course mass is on its own a very meaningless standard, only some basis after some basis for armor and shield quality is there can it start to be meaningful should they be considered equal.

    Do you have something less arbitrary then ships destroying other ships for you baseline? I've said mine before, lance batteries used as tactical orbital strikes in the Cain books on the scale of a nuke. I've not heard you cite what events you are getting your scale from

    Their are hundreds of Space Marine heroes the equal or better of Master Chief who was a key force in bringing about the downfall of the Covenant.
    Yes and without how many of the supporting cast would the Covenant have... gone on to be scheduled to appear in Halo 4? 343 only know what state they're in but hey not like they're dead. Or that Master Chief killed every last one of them personally.

    The Covenant is the only ones really to blame for the Great Schism.

    The Covenant have absolutely no defense against the psykers of the Imperium or any other species.
    Fair enough but your most common psyker is a blind guy that talks to other blind guys. Well actually most common is the guy who's screams light the cosmos but I digress. Of those that have something useful how many are utterly immune to getting shot?

    Face it, they're a feather weight in what is a Super Heavy Weight melee. They just don't operate on the same scale as the standard 40k powers even if they have comparable technology.
    Or the Imperium is a barely modern on average force bloated with more that it can ever manage while torn at by all sides and all its neatest toys it generally has fewer of then it has planets to defend them with?

    What's not comparable so far? FTL is flat out better, that alone properly used is the most important advantage you can have. Both destroy planets with some semi-regularity so I continue to see some degree of parity in space. IG infantry do at best equal their other reality human counterparts, but the Covenant. The five Space Marines that actually show up at a time are a lot less common then plasma grenades, snipers, fuel rod canons, and even energy swords.

    Now that does leave vehicles.... which yeah the Covenant seems to lack a real tank so doesn't have a good answer to the Leman Russ (which actually occurs enmasse) and Scarabs fall into the same problem Space Marines do. This has less to do with serious gaps in their overall tier and the apparent lack of serious mechanized combat in the Haloverse. Also Covenant vehicles also being a case where being more advanced doesn't equal better.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Doesn't the Covenant have an effective range in space of something like a half or third of the Imperium's? That is a major disadvantage particularly when it doesn't seem like the Covenant ships are any faster when it comes to STL travel. They can't really do FTL combat jumps since it seems like that takes a pretty massive drain on their ship's energy which leaves them pretty vulnerable.

    Also the orbital defense stations around were compared to be roughly considered to be one gun in a battery of guns on a Imperial cruiser. Those guns could one shot Covenant ships.

    How good is the shielding and armor of Covenant ships? The Imperium's is pretty good, particularly in it's front arc. Also how specialized are the Covenant ships? Imperial ships usually have a fighter contingent or are equipped with devastating torpedoes.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Actually, Astropaths are also good psykers and have all access to the schools that psykers do. In fact, they're more stable psychic power wise.

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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosLord29 View Post
    Their are hundreds of Space Marine heroes the equal or better of Master Chief who was a key force in bringing about the downfall of the Covenant.
    Were they trained to specifically fight the Covenant? Do they know what Covenant weaponry is capable of? Can they recognize the roles of Covenant infantry on sight? Can they pilot Covenant vehicles?

    Also note that there were a lot more Spartans than just the Master Chief (not "Master Chief". As awesome as that sounds, it's shorthand for Master Chief Petty Officer). Chief is a Spartan II, though there were Spartan IIIs, and now even IVs. The IIs were trained from the age of six with a very small success rate, the IIIs were trained from adolescence with a higher rate of success, and the IVs are volunteers from the most notable members of squads. No training needed, just give 'em the "upgrades" and send them through UNSC Infinity simulation to teach them how to use MJOLNIR armor.

    Also of note, MJOLNIR is lightweight stuff (despite it weighing half a ton) when wielded by a Spartan. It's so effective that it actually enhances body functions while providing incredibly powerful energy shields, seperate implants, and doesn't impede movement at all.

    Hell, if this were a Spartan versus a Space Marine, the Spartan would more than likely win. He's got better training, less cumbersome armor, and can quite efficiently goomba-stomp their foe to death, should they try.

    They also have a tendency to, y'know, wear their helmet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Who's sitting around? Taking steps to restore your resource base is a very active step. Repopulating your species is an active step. Building up a new empire is a very active step. A society place under such pressure is going to look inward first. The greatest threat is a Schism on High Charity and the Covenant but however that plays out you can bet who's left is going to care about surival of their species foremost and rebuilding.

    You seem convinced the Covenant must act with suicidal stupidity. Why?
    Because everyone supporting the Imperium here is basing their views of the Covenant on the games (most likely their experience with Easy/Normal mode), rather than the books, comics, or animated shorts. The stuff that provides insight on their technologies and tactics. The stuff we've read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    They don't have to beat them when they can out range every ship in the Imperium.

    Its not a match up anymore. The Covenant have no reason to take on something as huge as the Imperium with no resources and vastly reduced population. Of course it would likely take a long while before the Imperium even recognized they exist to. Much less do the work of tracking down the y'know FTL-capable High Charity.
    I'm pretty sure plasma is still more than effective against ships and infantry anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    What's not comparable so far? FTL is flat out better, that alone properly used is the most important advantage you can have. Both destroy planets with some semi-regularity so I continue to see some degree of parity in space. IG infantry do at best equal their other reality human counterparts, but the Covenant. The five Space Marines that actually show up at a time are a lot less common then plasma grenades, snipers, fuel rod canons, and even energy swords.
    You forgot Gravity Hammers and Brute Shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Now that does leave vehicles.... which yeah the Covenant seems to lack a real tank so doesn't have a good answer to the Leman Russ (which actually occurs enmasse) and Scarabs fall into the same problem Space Marines do. This has less to do with serious gaps in their overall tier and the apparent lack of serious mechanized combat in the Haloverse. Also Covenant vehicles also being a case where being more advanced doesn't equal better.
    They have the:

    • Banshee, which functions in air as well as it does in space.
    • Ghost, which can move at incredible speeds, is cheap to manufacture, and has onboard plasma cannons.
    • Wraith, a massive plasma mortar tank that can boost like the Banshee and Ghost.
    • Scarab, which seeing as their other vehicles are made out of the same materials, have only one restriction: size.
    • Phantom, standard infantry transport as well as an incredibly dangerous air support vehicle. Like the Banshee, is also effective in air and in space.
    • Other vehicles introduced in Halo Wars (which is canon).


    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Doesn't the Covenant have an effective range in space of something like a half or third of the Imperium's? That is a major disadvantage particularly when it doesn't seem like the Covenant ships are any faster when it comes to STL travel. They can't really do FTL combat jumps since it seems like that takes a pretty massive drain on their ship's energy which leaves them pretty vulnerable.

    Also the orbital defense stations around were compared to be roughly considered to be one gun in a battery of guns on a Imperial cruiser. Those guns could one shot Covenant ships.

    How good is the shielding and armor of Covenant ships? The Imperium's is pretty good, particularly in it's front arc. Also how specialized are the Covenant ships? Imperial ships usually have a fighter contingent or are equipped with devastating torpedoes.
    Cite your resources rather than making assumptions in the form of rhetorical questions, please.
    Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-09-16 at 02:54 AM.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    Cite your resources rather than making assumptions in the form of rhetorical questions, please.
    First you misquoted something and attributed something to me that Soras said. Please fix that.


    Now my sources are vague memories of the games (I played through them once and only to Halo 3. I never touched anything from the Halo-verse since.) and what other people have said in this thread.

    For the Imperial stuff I'm going by battlefield gothic fluff and naval battles from the Gaunt's Ghost series.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    First you misquoted something and attributed something to me that Soras said. Please fix that.
    Cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Now my sources are vague memories of the games (I played through them once and only to Halo 3. I never touched anything from the Halo-verse since.) and what other people have said in this thread.
    Then you don't really have enough information to make those claims now, do you?
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post


    Then you don't really have enough information to make those claims now, do you?
    No but the claims were brought up earlier in thread then never addressed by pro-Halo supporters. Here is the relevant quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    Really, the problem in Space is that the Covenant Ships are shown to be hurt by UNSC MAC Cannons. A Imperial Frigate will mount whole broadsides of cannons larger in size, if not quite the same projectile velocity, with armour-ignoring Lance** projectors prow mounted. And while they only have somewhat more than the 10-30 meters of armour plating that the UNSC ships mount, they also have at least a kilometer of hull to anything vital. And Void Shields, which autoblock nearly everything if they come in one shot (per one Void Shield projector) at a time. Cruisers, are bigger, more heavily armoured and be-weaponed. And Cruisers are the IoM's Ship-of-the-Line.

    While the Covenant may manuever faster due to the Slipspace-short-jump capabilities, with it's obvious drawbacks ignored for a moment, it doesn't help them too much, as the Imperium outranges them by... Well, Imperial Standard Armament (Macrocannons, Laser Batteries, etc) Extreme Range is in the 70,000 - 100,000 km, with 30-60,000 km being optimal range. ...The Covenant engage, at most, around 10,000 km, with a few rare exceptions like the Sniper Flagship/Battlecruiser that shows up in The Fall of Reach that has a range of (approximated) 100,000 km. (1 in the 314 ship strong invasion force that they pointed at Reach, the assumed Human Homeworld. They have another 2000-3000 ships with High Charity, so they could have (going by that ratio) a whole... 10? More, if you assume they keep the better ships at home.)

    Covenant Fighters might be superior to Imperial, but it's difficult to tell, as all they ever fight is Longswords, and go about even against them.

    And all the Reclaimers help them if there's an "outdated*" Nova Cannon on a cruiser. Fires rounds at >.75C, that implode hard enough to hurt Imperium-sized/armoured ships when they miss by a few hundred kilometers. There are a variety of Nova Cannons in fluff, as usual for 40K, some hilariously weaker than this, some hilariously stronger.

    *Technically, it's still a marvel of engineering for the Imperium, they just consider it outdated in the Military Tactic sense, having moved Prow-Shooting > Horde of Fighters > Broadsides > ???, depending on Sector.

    ** Lances, while blocked by Imperium Void Shields, have the descriptor Ignores Armour. These buggers can lance straight through ships if they don't have Void Shields up.
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    Default Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

    And yet you choose to ignore the fact that the Covenant have the quickly-regenerating, reliably defensive energy shields.
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