The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[ChaosLord29]

Yeah, I kind of recalled after about five seconds that the Covenant didn't show up until about 2 years after he was deployed. Even then, his training shifted immediately to take them down. Also worthy of note is how the majority of the Spartan IIs and IIIs died.



Do they have active camo? Or what about the fact that the Covenant could have all their forces on the ground much sooner than the Imperium?

Also, you can't just say "the Imperium can beat the Covenant because they've got better stuff". Explain what weapons they have that are so much better than a bullet blocking sword and gravity field displacing hammer. Y'know, the incredibly easy to manufacture weapons of which the only restriction is whether or not you are allowed to hold one.

Well, Terminators and SpaceMarines can teleport and drop pod onto the battlefield just as fast as covenant dropships. Thunderhawk gunships are also comparable to Covenant dropships (Phantoms?), except that they are much more heavily armed with twin banks of Lascannons and Hurricane Bolter arrays.

As for Beamswords and Gravity Hammers, they have analogues in the Imperium: Power Weapons (basically any edge weapon surrounded by an energy field that functions exactly like a Beam Sword) which are much more common than Beam Swords, seeing as they are commonly carried by even IG sergeants and are practically standard issue amongst Space Marine Officers. Power Fists and Thunder Hammers are also standard issue for Terminators (either tactical or assault teams) and available once again to IG and Space Marine officers, working on a similar principle except that the energy field is amplified by an order of magnitude and make even an ordinary soldier capable of crushing tank armor like so much aluminum foil.

I think you'll find there's an analogue of everyone of the Covenant's heaviest weapons to be found in greater abundance in the Imperial Armoury, and remember again that unlike the UNSC, the Imperium has developed defensive equipment to match these threats (even if it isn't available to the standard Guardsman).

So, not only will the Covenant be outnumbered on the ground, they're more than likely be matched or outmatched by Imperium weaponry (particularly Space Marines), and vehicles (if the IG).

[Triscuitable]

I think that the falling out is that the Covenant would have to rely on guerilla tactics to win. And even then, chance of victory is slim. They're not stupid, but the biggest issue is that they're about two-thousand years old while the Imperium is a few dozen times that.

[ChaosLord29]

I think that the falling out is that the Covenant would have to rely on guerilla tactics to win. And even then, chance of victory is slim. They're not stupid, but the biggest issue is that they're about two-thousand years old while the Imperium is a few dozen times that.

Guerilla tactics only win wars when you've got some other kind of leverage working for you or some means of outlasting your opponent. I'm willing to concede Soras's point that the Imperium is a foetid shell of what it once was, maybe even a dying one, but if so it has been dying for thousands of years (since the Horus Heresy) and is likely to continue of in that fashion for perhaps thousands more. When the collapse of an Empire is measured not in years, not in decades, not even in centuries, but in Millennia, there's a lot that can change.

The Covenant may not be stupid, but if they intend to keep the Covenant together, they're going to have to continue the Great Journey, and even if they make it last another thousand years, they are bound to attract the attention of the Imperium in doing so, and the Brutes and Elites won't just accept a retreat from a xenocidal race of heathans, they will sacrifice themselves for the sake of the Great Journey (not to mention thousands of Grunts and Jackals in the process), to preserve the Prophets, who will either be forced to retreat to preserve some semblance of the Covenant, reducing them to the same dying state as the Imperium. Except they aren't nearly as likely yo last another thousand years.

[Forum Explorer]

Do they have active camo? Or what about the fact that the Covenant could have all their forces on the ground much sooner than the Imperium?

Also, you can't just say "the Imperium can beat the Covenant because they've got better stuff". Explain what weapons they have that are so much better than a bullet blocking sword and gravity field displacing hammer. Y'know, the incredibly easy to manufacture weapons of which the only restriction is whether or not you are allowed to hold one.

I would also like to add that they do face off against active camo and while it makes things more difficult the Imperial Guard is still able to defeat those opponents. So it wouldn't be a surprise for them.

Gurilla tactics can only take you so far, particularly when all aliens are killed on sight.

Basically to sum everything up: The Covenant have no advantages over the Imperium in pretty much any way while the Imperium has numbers, better soldiers, and experience on the Covenant.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm also curious where the gigajoules figure comes from, though all this line of argument is proving to me is that science fiction writers (Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, 40K, whatever) should never be allowed near a number pad, because they have no sense of scale whatsoever.

Which is why I don't like to bring them up.

As I broadly speaking don't trust sci-fi writers with numbers I have to sort of ignore them. Even someone who's all about running numbers like David Weber once famously made his ships not quite as dense as cigar smoke.

Admittedly this makes a broad range of realities something I consider difficult to judge against one another. The Imperium is one of them, and now frankly I put the Covenant there too.

Agreed. The more impressive number is the 10-30 meters of Armor ignored anyways. Also with their shields being weak to lances (and other energy weapons) and their shorter engagement ranges it looks like the Imperium would be able to pick off all but the Supercarriers which look to be roughly equivilant to a Space Station with 7 lance shots. Harder to deal with but do-able. Also the sort of thing that would attract Space Marines or Mechanicus ships.

Armor being ignored is less a comment on the weapon and more a comment on the metallurgy. And let it be remember that being weaker against plasma weapons is not exactly a radical thing. Its not like the plasma carbine/rifle depletes Chief's or Elite shields in a shot. The personal weapons only show a fairly narrow difference in game. We've no real reason to suppose it to be particularly significant at ship board levels.

Also ranges in space are easily the most dubious concept relating to sci-fi battles, unless you have something that explicitly limits the range for in-universe technical reasons or there is a true disparity. Is there lag for lightspeed limitations? No? Then the ships are in range. That's my rule anyways.

Also the Covenant has pinpoint accurate FTL, they get to start the battle at any range they please so its even further a non-issue.

Yeah, guess I never should have tried to bring in numbers XD

Anyway, I think the point that Imperial Lance weapons routinely melt through ships double and triple the size of Covenant Cruisers should count for a lot in how any space battles will work out.

And where does this come from.

For one thing I've several times pointed out that the Covenant has more then just its supercarrier that are perfectly with the Imperial scale. Actually considering the Covenant's design philosophy for a relative length their ships seem much more spherical in design so should be more massive for a given length.

Now I have also found some smaller ships with the same typing as much larger ones which is perhaps odd. However I should point out that ship types are actually pretty fluid. IRL every aircraft carrier under USN designations is *technically* a cruiser. That's what the C in CVN stands for. Also for fun Ticonderoga-class, the only "cruisers" in service share their hulls with the now long decommed Spruance-class destroyers. And cruisers and Arleigh Burke destroyers aren't that difference in size, equipment, or armament, the main difference being the destroyers lack a second 5" gun. Whole point of that side bar being that aliens having perhaps counter-intuitive ship designations is not significant by itself.

There a bigger point though. Understand that lance batteries are not "ignoring armor" just because they have that magic ability or whatever. It merely a practical shorthand for saying that in 40k armor is not effective enough to pose a problem for them.

Ship size in particular has nothing to do with it because its only how good the armor is at point of impact. Which thickness helps but also the material construction. A half inch of steel is probably better then a three inch phone book.

So I think you read far too much into a fact (that we still haven seen a source on) that isn't nearly as meaningful as you think. Unless you submit that Covenant ships are not made out of the same material as Imperial ones it doesn't mean anything. The same case applies with shields.

Just because something falls under the same concept does not make them equivalent automatically.

Put aside for a moment Imperial ships blasting other 40k ships, do you have some other measure of their toughness. For example to Imperial ships ever dive into the atmosphere. We know Covenant ones do from among other things the Prophet of Regrets attack on New Mombasa, clearly through either hull or shields they can survive re-entry. Maybe Imperial ships simply lack the hover tech to do that, no problem, but that would be less arbitrary instance of toughness.

Also I'm detecting a sort of totally ignoring the shields vibe which I just don't get. Even putting aside the numbers something like the MAC is respectable space weapon in concept, its flaws lie in its slow rate of fire evidently, and that the UNSC ships next weapon are missiles which the Covenant shields and point defense eat like candy. So I continue to fail to see where this becomes a massacre of the Covenant like has been suggested in so many words more then once.

Will they loose ships, sure thing, but they deploy fleets in the hundred repeatedly where Imperial fleets seem to run more like IRL ones with dozens.

[GloatingSwine]

Also, you can't just say "the Imperium can beat the Covenant because they've got better stuff". Explain what weapons they have that are so much better than a bullet blocking sword and gravity field displacing hammer. Y'know, the incredibly easy to manufacture weapons of which the only restriction is whether or not you are allowed to hold one.

20mm Semiautomatic RPG?

As an infantry weapon?

[Olfgar]

I would like to know where you thought of that? Can you find anywhere that shows how many soldiers the Imperium has versus how many the covenant has, especially since it is multiple races, and not just one.

Also better soldiers how? Ok so they kill aliens on sight. Thats nice. The covenant also kills humans on site, as theyve never had the need to hold mroe than a few important prisoners at a time, and thats only to extract information, after which they are killed.

Id also like to point out, that most Sangheli (Elite) and Jiralhanae (Brutes) are as strong as Spartan 2's, if not stronger, which so far seems to be the most "powerful" of the spartan series, since the Spartan 3's were ment to be cheaper and expendable. The Spartan 4's that were recently revealed in novles (which I havent been able to read yet) along with the multiplayer portion for Halo 4, im not all to familiar with but i'll still assume that the Spartan 2 series (ala Master Chief) are still the best. The Hunter colonies (their actualy race name escapes me, it was something golo) are definatly physicaly stronger than anything that has been seen so far, and even larger colonies of the hunter eeles are what make the Scarab tanks function.

And i cant see how they have more experience in warfare. All of the races would have had their own wars amongst them selves before they developed the technology, or were adopted into the covenant. Hell, the Brutes had numerous brutal inner conflicts that brought them selves from a spac faring species back to pre or early industrial age technology before being adopted into the covenant.

Infact, the Elites, whos ENTIRE culture is a warrior culture, to the point where they even from upon surgeons and doctors, because they cause your blood to be spilled out of the glory of combat. Once they finished their war with the prophets and created the first covenant alliance, they worked on bringing in the grunts, hunters, jackals and brutes intot he fold, along witht he drones (again i forget those buggy bastards real species). Each of the other races may not be as dedicated to warfare that the Elites and brutes dedicate them selves to, but are each well experienced in warfare form their own wars, rebellions formt he early stages of the Covenant being first formed, and now the war witht he humans AND aainst the flood, and the Elite vs Brute Civil war. Id say that they should atleast the same amount of experience, if not more but im willing to not debate this point and compromise with similar experience.

For the active camo front, unless they have a way to completly neutralize the active camo, a couple Sangheli spec ops teams could cause serious damage and disruption to any force, form sabotage, to killing commanding officers, to causing a flank or defensive position to flank.

Im not as well versed in Imperium battle tactics on the ground (ill save space combat for another time) but I have a hard time seeing a Covenant ground force and all it entails being defeated. Squadrons of ghost for scouting/recon along with hit and run attacks along softer areas or a flank after battle has been engaged, Wraith tanks lobbing plasma mortars from 1) A safe distance and 2) they can be behind cover while doing it. Along with a few hunter bond pairs and well placed jackal phalanx teams supporting the Sangheli and Grunt assault teams, or brute packs that are thrown in to act as beserkers, jackals are also excelent marksmen with their sharp eye site.

Toss in a few scarabs and **** will get ruined real fast. The Covenant also makes liberal use of Banshee air support and their Specter transports for extra support fire power, or their extremly heavily armored Phantom troop transports thhat while less armed are nigh indestructible due tot he sheer amount of protection it has.

The onyl space marines i see being able to effectively fight them might be the Angry marines and even then i think it would end in a stalemate for both sides.

[GloatingSwine]

Put aside for a moment Imperial ships blasting other 40k ships, do you have some other measure of their toughness. For example to Imperial ships ever dive into the atmosphere. We know Covenant ones do from among other things the Prophet of Regrets attack on New Mombasa, clearly through either hull or shields they can survive re-entry. Maybe Imperial ships simply lack the hover tech to do that, no problem, but that would be less arbitrary instance of toughness.

We can figure out how powerful their guns are from what they can do to things like planets. It takes far fewer ships and a shorter time for the Imperium's Lunar class cruisers to glass a planet than it does the Covenant, for instance. (Exterminatus on Typhon IV is carried out by five or so Lunar class cruisers, the fleet that glassed Reach had hundreds if not thousands of ships).

From instances like that where a common target is used we can tell that the firepower available to the most common ship of the line in the Imperium is vastly greater than those of the Covenant.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem Soras is that you can't pick and choose your insanity. If it is canon that their effective range is 30 000 km when by logic and known science it should be effectively 300 000km then you have to accept that it is 30 000km regardless. Otherwise you also have to point out how none of the other science makes sense as that tends to be the case in Sci-Fi settings.

[Olfgar]

We can figure out how powerful their guns are from what they can do to things like planets. It takes far fewer ships and a shorter time for the Imperium's Lunar class cruisers to glass a planet than it does the Covenant, for instance. (Exterminatus on Typhon IV is carried out by five or so Lunar class cruisers, the fleet that glassed Reach had hundreds if not thousands of ships).

From instances like that where a common target is used we can tell that the firepower available to the most common ship of the line in the Imperium is vastly greater than those of the Covenant.

Im not as wellversed in warhammer as id like but...doesnt an exterminatus use something along the lines of super powerful nukes? I doubt that they use normal ship board wepaonry such as their cannons and what not, while the covenant do. They take their time, and use the NORMAL wepaons that their ships use in ship to ship combat to also ruin a planet. Ive never heard of the marines using an exterminatus type wepaon in ship to ship combat.

And in regards to fleet size, they usualy bring hundreds for just a regular old attack. If anyone rememberd how many ships were preparing to originaly attack Earth that were gathering around the repair and refit station Unyeilding Heirophant in the First Strike (?) novel. Largest Covie fleet ever seen. If I remeberd correctly the fleet that attacked reach was also on the large side. And their pinpoint accurate FTL is a great advantage to....Also I believe in reach, there was a super carrier that had been stealthed that was over the planet that brought down the UNSC ships after noble team took down the spires. unless of course the super carrier had just did an FTL jump INTO the atmosphere of the palnet, again, showing how accurate it is.

[Tiki Snakes]

Im not as wellversed in warhammer as id like but...doesnt an exterminatus use something along the lines of super powerful nukes?

They have a dazzling array of methods for performing Exterminatus. The favoured is usually virus-bombing, actually, because it leaves the infrastructure intact and simply cleanses the planet for later re-use.

But yes, I believe they do on occaision litterally just break the planet with their ship-mounted weaponry. I'm sure someone will be along with more specific examples later.

[GloatingSwine]

I would like to know where you thought of that? Can you find anywhere that shows how many soldiers the Imperium has versus how many the covenant has, especially since it is multiple races, and not just one.

You can't find out how many soldiers the Imperium has, even the Imperium doesn't know, but the daily recruitment and casualty rates for the Imperial Guard run into the millions. That's numbers of soldiers recruited or killed/wounded per day is millions, every day.

And that's just the Imperial Guard itself, not planetary defence forces.

And i cant see how they have more experience in warfare.

The Imperium has been in a state of constant total war on about seven fronts (not to mention internal conflict) for something like ten thousand years. There are individual Space Marines that have been fighting longer than the Covenant has existed. (albeit as Dreadnoughts). Bjorn the Fell Handed is over ten thousand years old, and they only wake him up when it's time to kill something.

Im not as well versed in Imperium battle tactics on the ground (ill save space combat for another time) but I have a hard time seeing a Covenant ground force and all it entails being defeated

Covenant ground forces repeatedly had trouble dealing with UNSC ground forces. Even Elites can be threatened by what are essentially equivalent to modern firearms, if slightly higher calibre. And even in the Imperial Guard there would be countless soldiers arrayed against them, all armed with weapons that significantly outpower modern weaponry (Imperial Guard lasguns will blow a hole the size of a man's fist clean through an unarmoured body. Some of the things the Guard are used to fighting don't even notice when this happens).

[GloatingSwine]

Im not as wellversed in warhammer as id like but...doesnt an exterminatus use something along the lines of super powerful nukes? I doubt that they use normal ship board wepaonry such as their cannons and what not, while the covenant do. They take their time, and use the NORMAL wepaons that their ships use in ship to ship combat to also ruin a planet. Ive never heard of the marines using an exterminatus type wepaon in ship to ship combat.

It can do. They have all sorts of ways of burning a planet, or even smashing it to pieces with a core tunnelling melta charge (they only do that to things like tomb worlds). But they can just shoot it a lot with their normal ship weaponry if there are none of the more exotic methods available or appropriate to the task. It takes longer and requires more ships (a lot of the exotic methods are single weapons), but does the job.

[DaedalusMkV]

They have a dazzling array of methods for performing Exterminatus. The favoured is usually virus-bombing, actually, because it leaves the infrastructure intact and simply cleanses the planet for later re-use.

But yes, I believe they do on occaision litterally just break the planet with their ship-mounted weaponry. I'm sure someone will be along with more specific examples later.

The Imperium uses their ship-to-ship weaponry to crack a planet, in glorious bad-CGI.

[Fallen Angel]

If covenant weaposn are equal per shot to Imperium weapons, show me where the Covenant cracks a planet open with several shots.

*watches CGI*

[The Glyphstone]

Im not as well versed in Imperium battle tactics on the ground (ill save space combat for another time) but I have a hard time seeing a Covenant ground force and all it entails being defeated. Squadrons of ghost for scouting/recon along with hit and run attacks along softer areas or a flank after battle has been engaged, Wraith tanks lobbing plasma mortars from 1) A safe distance and 2) they can be behind cover while doing it. Along with a few hunter bond pairs and well placed jackal phalanx teams supporting the Sangheli and Grunt assault teams, or brute packs that are thrown in to act as beserkers, jackals are also excelent marksmen with their sharp eye site.

Toss in a few scarabs and **** will get ruined real fast. The Covenant also makes liberal use of Banshee air support and their Specter transports for extra support fire power, or their extremly heavily armored Phantom troop transports thhat while less armed are nigh indestructible due tot he sheer amount of protection it has.

The onyl space marines i see being able to effectively fight them might be the Angry marines and even then i think it would end in a stalemate for both sides.

Ghosts, Banshees, Spectres = Hydra Flak Cannons, dedicated anti-air vehicles who can track and kill Eldar skimmers and hovertanks...Ghosts got nothing on the Eldar in terms of hard-to-hit. Or they bring in their own air support units, who have actual armor and lascannons as main weaponry.
Wraiths = The IG have artillery too, more of it, and better. The Guard is built and blooded on its heavy artillery, they'll have more bombardment units than the Covenant will have ammunition for their Wraiths in a typical engagement.
Hunters = Big, ugly, hard to kill. That's what the main gun of an armored battle tank is for, or lascannons (Spartan Lasers handed out as squad support weapons), or their own sniper teams, or just one unlucky sap with a demolition charge - and once the Hunter armor is broken open, lots and lots and lots of fire.
Scarabs = might be able to go toe-to-toe with a Scout Titan. They're about half the height of an actual Battle Titan.
For their foot soldiers...men and guns, lots of men and guns, and tanks. Real tanks, not Scorpions that want to be tanks.


The Covenant are toast if they try to meet the Guard in a head-on ground engagement.

[GloatingSwine]

They're not.

In the "Great Big List of Which SF Races Can Beat Each Other", everyone but the Forerunners from the Halo 'verse is pretty small beans.

The Imperium of Man is fairly high up given its size and competence at and enthusiasm for blowing **** up, and most of the races that can convincingly beat it are ones that involve institutionalised cheating like weaponised time travel or other exotic approaches to the structure of spacetime.

[Misery Esquire]

I would like to know where you thought of that? Can you find anywhere that shows how many soldiers the Imperium has versus how many the covenant has, especially since it is multiple races, and not just one.

The Imperium has endless trillions (Probably a technically higher -illions counter) of human lives, and a goodly number of that is the Imperial Guard, who's anwser to an immovable object is to throw another million men at it. Just to see what happens.

Also better soldiers how? Ok so they kill aliens on sight. Thats nice. The covenant also kills humans on site, as theyve never had the need to hold mroe than a few important prisoners at a time, and thats only to extract information, after which they are killed.

Better soldiers in that the standard Imperial Guardsman is armed better, carry better specialist and heavy weapon gear, and are more zealously dedicated than the UNSC, and the UNSC manages to win against the Covenant. Therefore IG > UNSC > Covvies. And the fact that the IG cart around piles of heavy weapons as standard doctrine.

Id also like to point out, that most Sangheli (Elite) and Jiralhanae (Brutes) are as strong as Spartan 2's...

Physical strength is a really bad way to classify your infantry as superior. It doesn't matter if you are twice or two hundred times as strong as a Guardsman if his lasgun can still burn holes into your vitals. He was going to die horribly in hand-to-hand, anyway.

And i cant see how they have more experience in warfare. All of the races would have had their own wars amongst them selves before they developed the technology, or were adopted into the covenant. Hell, the Brutes had numerous brutal inner conflicts that brought them selves from a spac faring species back to pre or early industrial age technology before being adopted into the covenant.

10,000 years of doctrine and meeting new races to kill/be killed by gives a good perspective. Whether or not it matter from General to General or on an actual battlefield... Meh.

For the active camo front, unless they have a way to completly neutralize the active camo, a couple Sangheli spec ops teams could cause serious damage and disruption to any force, form sabotage, to killing commanding officers, to causing a flank or defensive position to flank.

In any non-Tribal Imperial Guard regiment, they deploy Auspex at a rate of about one per squad. The Auspex is like the shoddy knock-off version of a Star Trek tricorder. Without the Wikipedia attachment.

Im not as well versed in Imperium battle tactics on the ground (ill save space combat for another time) but I have a hard time seeing a Covenant ground force and all it entails being defeated. Squadrons of ghost for scouting/recon along with hit and run attacks along softer areas or a flank after battle has been engaged, Wraith tanks lobbing plasma mortars from 1) A safe distance and 2) they can be behind cover while doing it. Along with a few hunter bond pairs and well placed jackal phalanx teams supporting the Sangheli and Grunt assault teams, or brute packs that are thrown in to act as beserkers, jackals are also excelent marksmen with their sharp eye site.

The problem with Covenant ground forces is that they have groups of specialized forces and no Grouped Command Tactics or stratagems.

A horde of grunts deploy, and can be mowed down. A phalanx of Jackals, whose shields break to ordinary Assault Rifle rounds will crumple to autocannons and grenade launchers. Hunters are heavy, and will require heavy weapon teams... but the Imperial Guard know that heavy weapon are in style.

Ghosts are too lightly armoured, and will be broken the first time an autocannon draws a bead, or a Chimera pulses them down with an autolas.

Wraiths are... Sad. They can be destroyed by someone firing a chaingun into thier sides/back. Lascannons will burn holes if given a straight line, or actual non-three-minute-projectile-travel-time artillery will counterbattery them into a crater. They also appearntly have an effective range of about five hundred meters without a hill, or other incline.

Also, dear lord the Leman Russ is the best. Can run on firewood. Has huge cannon. Lots of armour. Either three lascannons, three heavy bolters, or a mix of 1-and-2!

Toss in a few scarabs and **** will get ruined real fast. The Covenant also makes liberal use of Banshee air support and their Specter transports for extra support fire power, or their extremly heavily armored Phantom troop transports thhat while less armed are nigh indestructible due tot he sheer amount of protection it has.

Banshees are like flying Ghosts. And break as easily. The Phantom, while impressive against the Halo Rocket Launcher, can be destroyed with tank shells from a Scorpion, and is therefore vunerable to Leman Russ shells, Lascannons, and Hydra Flak Batteries.

Scarabs have long spindly legs that are begging to be cut off by massed lascannon, lasdestroyer, or simply pummeled by Basallisk artillery fire. Or challenged by the Imperial Superheavies, like Baneblades (and varients), Titans, or a few Space Marines to do what the MC does to all the Scarabs he meets. Get onboard. Kill everyone. Place bombs and run.

The onyl space marines i see being able to effectively fight them might be the Angry marines and even then i think it would end in a stalemate for both sides.

Uh. ... I have nothing to say about this.

The Imperium of Man is fairly high up given its size and competence at and enthusiasm for blowing **** up, and most of the races that can convincingly beat it are ones that involve institutionalised cheating like weaponised time travel or other exotic approaches to the structure of spacetime.

The IoM, I think, should be somewhere in the midground. It's a good seperator for those Scifi races that want to call themselves Galactic, and have the force/resources to back it up, and those who don't.

[Soras Teva Gee]

We can figure out how powerful their guns are from what they can do to things like planets. It takes far fewer ships and a shorter time for the Imperium's Lunar class cruisers to glass a planet than it does the Covenant, for instance. (Exterminatus on Typhon IV is carried out by five or so Lunar class cruisers, the fleet that glassed Reach had hundreds if not thousands of ships).

From instances like that where a common target is used we can tell that the firepower available to the most common ship of the line in the Imperium is vastly greater than those of the Covenant.

You mean this one?

Very nice but all the real work note was done by Cyclonic torpedo there. Which is built for the purpose and evidently either not permitted for and/or not capable of naval combat.

Their normal weapons are clearly going to take a long time, probably why they jump cut to the final shot. I can't imagine why the force wasted its time with less but maybe the Inquisitor allowed some target practice to be gotten in for use in other missions.

The problem Soras is that you can't pick and choose your insanity. If it is canon that their effective range is 30 000 km when by logic and known science it should be effectively 300 000km then you have to accept that it is 30 000km regardless. Otherwise you also have to point out how none of the other science makes sense as that tends to be the case in Sci-Fi settings.

If I had a shred of trust for ranges maybe. But lets not argue this point because it doesn't matter.

Covenant has complete control over the range of the fight thanks to their FTL. They get to start every fight on their terms really, a little scouting to locate fleets (no hiding in space generally) and jumping right to within range with some suprise thrown in.

Really properly applied by even a basic tactician the Covenant never has to fight in space except on their terms. Little more complicated when supporting ground forces but still really there.

You can't find out how many soldiers the Imperium has, even the Imperium doesn't know, but the daily recruitment and casualty rates for the Imperial Guard run into the millions. That's numbers of soldiers recruited or killed/wounded per day is millions, every day.

And that's just the Imperial Guard itself, not planetary defence forces.

Million is rather low, should be in the billions galaxy wide at least.

Of course being the only ones in such numbers is why I think all the real work defending the Imperium is done by the PDF and the IG, in that order.

The Imperium has been in a state of constant total war on about seven fronts (not to mention internal conflict) for something like ten thousand years. There are individual Space Marines that have been fighting longer than the Covenant has existed. (albeit as Dreadnoughts). Bjorn the Fell Handed is over ten thousand years old, and they only wake him up when it's time to kill something.

Must be lousy soldiers to take that long *rimshot*

Covenant ground forces repeatedly had trouble dealing with UNSC ground forces. Even Elites can be threatened by what are essentially equivalent to modern firearms, if slightly higher calibre. And even in the Imperial Guard there would be countless soldiers arrayed against them, all armed with weapons that significantly outpower modern weaponry (Imperial Guard lasguns will blow a hole the size of a man's fist clean through an unarmoured body. Some of the things the Guard are used to fighting don't even notice when this happens).

I believe this was one of the earliest issues addressed in this thread. Lasguns have much support in rulebooks and novels for being more to less equivalent to assault rifles. My favorite example is Commisar Cain's stated preference for getting shot with lasguns (if he must be shot at at all) since they tend to self cauterize and don't let you bleed out.

Relevant here a good point of comparison would be the Covenant's carbines or plasma rifles. Good weapons but very comparable.

Now there is nothing wrong with the lasgun (and its logistics are a divine gift from the Emperor Himself) but it supports the more or less obvious conclusion that IG infantry is more to less equivalent to a modern soldier. Which fortunately also applies to the Covenant's human enemies, quite sensibly as guns have nowhere to go as a tech.

So what does this mean, well as all the Empires neatest stuff tends to work out to less common then planet on a per capita basis, that infanty wise the IG should probably be at a disadvantage.

Sure they can kill Grunts with plasma pistols like Gretchin, the situation changes when you add weapons like the Needler and troops like the Elite, Brutes, and Hunters. I judge that purely on infantry the Imperium looses. With the five Marine actually around dying under heavier weapons like the plasma grenade while taking out many troops but not making much difference.

Vehicles though do much better I've yet to see anything that makes the Wraith a good tank or the Banshee a good gunship. And there don't seem to be as many as there probably should be either. While on the other hand the IG loves tanks and the Leman Russ while probably not up to say an Abrams is still an actual tank. Scarabs fall into the same whole all the Empire's best toys do, not enough to go around. When they show up so will say the Baneblades.

[Anecronwashere]

Tell me: What are you smoking and where can I get some?

Needlers: Empty the whole clip to kill one guy. Then get shot by his 10K friends
Elites: I can make a case for them being Eldar. Basic Eldar. Who are a lot slower
Brutes: Orks with better aim
Hunters: Space Marines

I think the active-cloaking has been covered. Auspices (which the IG definitively have) would still detect them.

[Forum Explorer]

Since this has come up multiple times now and I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer.


After an FTL jump how vulnerable are Covenant ships? To my understanding it takes some time after a jump before shields and weapons can come back online. If this is true then Soras' strategy would just have the Covenant die in droves. Otherwise it's a legitimate strategy that would go a long way to equalizing out the space battle.

Also how fast are the FTL communications? If there is a big enough delay then the scouting wouldn't be that useful anyways.

[Misery Esquire]

I believe this was one of the earliest issues addressed in this thread. Lasguns have much support in rulebooks and novels for being more to less equivalent to assault rifles. My favorite example is Commisar Cain's stated preference for getting shot with lasguns (if he must be shot at at all) since they tend to self cauterize and don't let you bleed out.

Most of the non-Cain quotes have put them superior to the autoguns of the Imperium, but anyway.

Now there is nothing wrong with the lasgun (and its logistics are a divine gift from the Emperor Himself) but it supports the more or less obvious conclusion that IG infantry is more to less equivalent to a modern soldier. Which fortunately also applies to the Covenant's human enemies, quite sensibly as guns have nowhere to go as a tech.

So what does this mean, well as all the Empires neatest stuff tends to work out to less common then planet on a per capita basis, that infanty wise the IG should probably be at a disadvantage.

Well, the thing is. Even if we say that Imperial Guardsman = UNSC Marine, then the 'Guard are in the lead, as the have an actual functioning military doctrine of dragging piles of heavy and specialist weapons around, that the UNSC refuses to adopt despite thier requirement to have it against the Covenant.

Sure they can kill Grunts with plasma pistols like Gretchin, the situation changes when you add weapons like the Needler and troops like the Elite, Brutes, and Hunters. I judge that purely on infantry the Imperium looses. With the five Marine actually around dying under heavier weapons like the plasma grenade while taking out many troops but not making much difference.

Brutes are like Orks, entirely willing to charge a Guard fortification. The Needler fires round that you can watch float toward you. Plenty of time to move. Elites would be a problem, if they were actually the standard footsoldier, but they tend to work in either killteams or leading a pack of Grunts. Meaning thier superiority as a trooper is minimal.

And well. If there's five Astartes around, that's more Spartans than the UNSC had together... pretty much anywhere. And Spartans won almost every engagement. So, yeah.

Vehicles though do much better I've yet to see anything that makes the Wraith a good tank or the Banshee a good gunship. And there don't seem to be as many as there probably should be either. While on the other hand the IG loves tanks and the Leman Russ while probably not up to say an Abrams is still an actual tank. Scarabs fall into the same whole all the Empire's best toys do, not enough to go around. When they show up so will say the Baneblades.

Ayup. Although, the Leman Russ can probably kill the Abrams, it could still use a design overhaul to a more modern one if it wanted to be even more effective.

After an FTL jump how vulnerable are Covenant ships? To my understanding it takes some time after a jump before shields and weapons can come back online. If this is true then Soras' strategy would just have the Covenant die in droves. Otherwise it's a legitimate strategy that would go a long way to equalizing out the space battle.

It's in The Fall of Reach that thier weapons and shields are offline after intrasystem jumps. Still haven't found my copy for the page reference that Soras wanted, though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Since this has come up multiple times now and I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer.


After an FTL jump how vulnerable are Covenant ships? To my understanding it takes some time after a jump before shields and weapons can come back online. If this is true then Soras' strategy would just have the Covenant die in droves. Otherwise it's a legitimate strategy that would go a long way to equalizing out the space battle.

Also how fast are the FTL communications? If there is a big enough delay then the scouting wouldn't be that useful anyways.

By evidence I have found... zero vulnerablity.

Seriously the entire article on FTL including its dangers does not mention it. and mentions that using in-system FTL to their advantage is a standard tactic by the Covenant.

Now its a wiki true, but details like that matter to nerd like us, and nerds like us write those articles. So I'm asking where this vulnerability is supposed to have come from because at the moment it just sounds like speculation cooked up by this thread.

[Triscuitable]

Since this has come up multiple times now and I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer.

After an FTL jump how vulnerable are Covenant ships? To my understanding it takes some time after a jump before shields and weapons can come back online. If this is true then Soras' strategy would just have the Covenant die in droves. Otherwise it's a legitimate strategy that would go a long way to equalizing out the space battle.

Also how fast are the FTL communications? If there is a big enough delay then the scouting wouldn't be that useful anyways.

The Halo universe ships don't travel at FTL. Rather, they open a portal of sorts into a seperate dimension called "slipspace" in which light does not exist. Virtually nothing exists, in fact, so the vehicles are able to hop from one end to the other with nothing in the way. This means they can't be attacked, located, etc. They're in another dimension. Convenient, no? Random slipspace jumps are a common tactic to lose enemy ships, and are a necessary part of the Cole Protocol (google it).

There is no downside to it for the Covenant; however, for the UNSC, their technology is not as advanced. Thinking of slipspace as a piece of paper, the UNSC Shaw-Fujikawa Engines poke their fist into it to open a hole immediately. The power draw from this is extreme, requiring a "cooldown" post travel. The Covenant are more efficient, with their cruisers making something of a scissor cut from the bottom, and quickly (but efficiently) making a hole large enough for their cruisers to fly through.

Going by this, they have no issue sending communications almost instantly through slipspace.

[Fallen Angel]

Must be lousy soldiers to take that long *rimshot*

Do you know the threads the Imperium faces? And the Imperial Guard is able to fight these threats is a testament to their strength as a fighting force.

But wait! Your going to claim to be speaking ironically.

That is just.. sad.

[Misery Esquire]

Now its a wiki true, but details like that matter to nerd like us, and nerds like us write those articles. So I'm asking where this vulnerability is supposed to have come from because at the moment it just sounds like speculation cooked up by this thread.

Got it! Page 305 to 308, The Fall Of Reach!

[An Enemy Spy]

Tell me: What are you smoking and where can I get some?

Needlers: Empty the whole clip to kill one guy. Then get shot by his 10K friends
Elites: I can make a case for them being Eldar. Basic Eldar. Who are a lot slower
Brutes: Orks with better aim
Hunters: Space Marines

I think the active-cloaking has been covered. Auspices (which the IG definitively have) would still detect them.

A single needler round can easily kill an unshielded enemy. It's a superheated spike that exploded into tiny superheated shards.

[Triscuitable]

A single needler round can easily kill an unshielded enemy. It's a superheated spike that exploded into tiny superheated shards.

How on Earth did we forget those things? The Needle-type Covenant weapons are absolutely devastating. The Spiker is also a viable option, but maybe less so. It's not as kablooie-like.

Also, it's a small cluster of them (seven for the Needler, which considering how fast it shoots them isn't an issue, and three for the Needle Rifle), not just one.

[jaybird]

A single needler round can easily kill an unshielded enemy. It's a superheated spike that exploded into tiny superheated shards.

You mean unarmoured. It's iffy whether needlers will affect Imperial Storm Troopers with Carapace, and outright impossible for them to affect anyone in Power Armour, meaning Mechanicus, Soritas, and Astartes - Power Armour is basically a tank suit, and needlers bounce off armour.

Anyways, the Imperium wins easily. There were, what, a hundred UNSC colonies that the Covenant took years to burn? The Imperium loses and gains a hundred worlds in wars every week. If a squad of SPARTAN-IIs (in First Strike) could kill their way in and out of a major Covenant space station, the Deathwing may as well do it for morning exercises.

[Triscuitable]

You mean unarmoured. It's iffy whether needlers will affect Imperial Storm Troopers with Carapace, and outright impossible for them to affect anyone in Power Armour, meaning Mechanicus, Soritas, and Astartes - Power Armour is basically a tank suit, and needlers bounce off armour.

I'm sorry, what?

Anyways, the Imperium wins easily. There were, what, a hundred UNSC colonies that the Covenant took years to burn? The Imperium loses and gains a hundred worlds in wars every week. If a squad of SPARTAN-IIs (in First Strike) could kill their way in and out of a major Covenant space station, the Deathwing may as well do it for morning exercises.

Why did they take their time to glass these worlds? Because they were killing the citizens of said planets so demoralize them, and make the final fact that they were glassing an almost completely forsaken colony hurt that much more. They were also searching for info on the location of Earth, which is always their first target: the bastion of their enemy. It's what the San'Shyuum did to Sanghelios, and it's what that pair did to the rest of the races of the Covenant.