World-Building Turn-Offs

[Iceforge]

I was thinking their general "creation" history from Tyrants of Hell, where basically the story is that devils started as a group of celestials fighting the disorder of chaos that are the demons and grew evil in their methods to destroy them while remaining lawful, not that each individual devil started out as angels.

Never did read a lot of that material, only the story on the first few pages, as to be honest, its not really my thing and my experiences from games that includes the blood war is not good, so maybe I got it wrong, but when you read the start of Tyrants of Hell (Fiendish Codex II) it does sound like the origin of Devils (as a "species") was that they used to be angels/celestials but they diverted away from good

[awa]

personally i have no problem with always evil races provided you emphasize a non human mind set some thing like a mind flayer being always evil makes perfect sense. If they just act like evil humans then im less okay with it, if their society is completely nonsensical like many depictions of drow then i cant stand it.

more something i see in novels then game settings but whatever

when the villains are repeatedly described as stupid and or bumbling if the bad guys are so stupid how are they possible a threat. (note i have seen situations where this was actually done well so there are of course exceptions.)

when anyone who opposes the protagonist for any reason will be uniformly bad, morally, mentally physically inferior to anyone who chooses to assist the heroes.
this is especially grating if the society has some kind of negative trait such as women having lower social standing, every single non evil member of such a society will either not have this particular prejudiced or will rapidly abandon it despite it supposedly being deeply engrained in the society.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I was thinking their general "creation" history from Tyrants of Hell, where basically the story is that devils started as a group of celestials fighting the disorder of chaos that are the demons and grew evil in their methods to destroy them while remaining lawful, not that each individual devil started out as angels.

Never did read a lot of that material, only the story on the first few pages, as to be honest, its not really my thing and my experiences from games that includes the blood war is not good, so maybe I got it wrong, but when you read the start of Tyrants of Hell (Fiendish Codex II) it does sound like the origin of Devils (as a "species") was that they used to be angels/celestials but they diverted away from good

The FC2 material is a retcon of the Planescape material that both puts more of a Judeo-Christian spin on things with the new falling/corruption interpretation (because WotC is annoying like that) and gets plenty of stuff wrong (archons, not angels, are lawful, and the demons weren't the first evil or chaotic creatures around). For more information, see here.

[Acanous]

I'm pretty good with Aberrations that are Always Evil.
Aboleths, for example, they think everything else that isn't an Aboleth is basically a nonsenient, like resources waiting to be tapped, exploited, or destroyed to prevent competition.

They don't care what your mission is, they don't particularly feel like lowering themselves to negotiate with you. If they DO deign to talk to you, it is to issue orders, not parley. If you're a threat, they will exterminate you with extreme prejiduce, and take your magical things so they can make some profit of the whole ordeal.

Basically, to Humans, Aboleths have unknowable goals, they either enslave or kill you, and if they enslave you, they'll probably have you go enslave your friends or family.
To Humans, that's horrible evil. To Aboleths, that's a properly exploited opportunity.

[Iceforge]

The FC2 material is a retcon of the Planescape material that both puts more of a Judeo-Christian spin on things with the new falling/corruption interpretation (because WotC is annoying like that) and gets plenty of stuff wrong (archons, not angels, are lawful, and the demons weren't the first evil or chaotic creatures around). For more information, see here.

Ah, makes sense, I read them after a DM told me to read them to prepare for campaign and he is a pretty heavily planescape influenced guy, who almost always runs his cosmos the planescape way.

Anyway, enough about that, as its starting to go off-topic.

But on a related on-topic note:

I hate worlds where the books establish a creation myth as being the canon truth, while there is no way that people inside the world would actually know if it was true.

Think oWoD was guilty of this; Reading the VtM books made it pretty clear that the real creation myth was very close to the judeo-Christian creation myth with a few spins on it.

There was no reason any characters in the game world would have more certainty about it than characters from our world, but by establishing it as almost a fact in the canon, I had players who would get upset if there was any hint ingame that creation happened another way

[awa]

actually every single group in old world of darkness had their own contradictory creation myth. i know werewolves could actually go visit their gods. actually if i recall correctly even different vampire groups had different views on the truth and the stuff presented in the book was just the camirilas (probably mangled that) take on it.

[Yora]

Here is one: Names with unneccessary spelling. In some cases where there are two vowls next to each other but belong to different syllables, using an apostrophe or diacritics is permisable, but in those case they need to be used correctly. There are some languages in which apostrophes and diacritics are used as actual letters and not as pronounciation indicators, but if you write in English, use the English alphabet. Faerûn is okay because there are no other ways to indicate a long vowel in english like uh in German or uu in Japanese. The game Brütal Legend can get away with it, because it's a joke on the same practice by some heavy metal bands. But otherwise it's useless to people who don't know the symbols and just looks silly to people who do.

[Man on Fire]

I have one, don't know if I haven't mentioned it already - giving new names to existing races and not changing anything else. This i so far my only complaint about othertwise excellent Fionavarn Tapestry books - we have Elves, who are exactly like Elves we all know, very Tolkien-vibed, more than some people got used to, but they are called Ios Afars. We have Orcs and Ogres who are as typical in being Orcs and Ogres as you can, all up to being slaves of dark lord, but they are called Sfart Afars and Urgachs respectively. If the only thing you want to change is the name, don't change it at all, there is no shame in using Orcs and Elves.

[Eldan]

I have one, don't know if I haven't mentioned it already - giving new names to existing races and not changing anything else. This i so far my only complaint about othertwise excellent Fionavarn Tapestry books - we have Elves, who are exactly like Elves we all know, very Tolkien-vibed, more than some people got used to, but they are called Ios Afars. We have Orcs and Ogres who are as typical in being Orcs and Ogres as you can, all up to being slaves of dark lord, but they are called Sfart Afars and Urgachs respectively. If the only thing you want to change is the name, don't change it at all, there is no shame in using Orcs and Elves.

Weeelll.
You can probably see that as a corruption of Ljosalfar and Svartalfar, so it still kinda works.

[celtois]

Not something that really bothered me with Fionavar. Fionavar is supposed to the first world after all, full of legends which echo our own. Or more appropriately our legends echo their's. So seeing things we are familiar with is part of the magic of the world.

To top that off the Lios alfar (and svart), are based on the nordic myths, and the name is taken almost directly from them (though anglicized slightly). It's not just a renaming of Tolkiens creations. It's going back to the source material, and drawing directly from it.

In short, the names aren't randomly chosen, but drawn from sources older than Tolkien

[Friv]

The Planescape version you described actually sounds pretty cool and makes a lot of sense. But yeah, WotC's planes and alignment are complete nonsense.

Oh, another one I just thought of:

13. The languages in 95% of settings, especially published ones. Common works fine as a lingua franca, sure, but in that case most people should speak it as a second language, rather than their primary. Sometimes people from different areas of the same country can barely understand one another in real life, so the idea of most of the world speaking the same language mutually intelligibly is mind boggling. Especially when most people are uneducated, and there are no global media to reinforce a language standard. And don't even get me started on the silliness that is racial languages (e.g. Dwarven) and environmental languages (e.g. Aquan).

Yeah, I know Common is supposed to be an abstraction to represent whatever the PCs and DM speak, and I know it's super nitpicky. I'm a linguistics major, though, so this completely destroys my suspension of disbelief. Similar to how a biologist must feel when he looks through the Monster Manual, I suppose.

I tend to assume that Common and racial languages are the languages that the gods of those races speak, and they've more or less used their temples to prevent linguistic drift from happening. ;)

[Yora]

I think at least one AD&D book says that Common is a stand-in for whatever is the common language for a given region, not any specific language.

[Inglenook]

Oh God, that makes even less sense. *shudders*

[Eldan]

Well, I guess that also assumes that if you go into a distant region, you won't understand the local common.

[C.J.Geringer]

Oh God, that makes even less sense. *shudders*

Why so? I think it makes sense, if you are in England, common would refer to English, in Germany to German, in Portugal to Portuguese and so on.

It assumes your campaign occurs in a region where humans are the dominant race, but it is easy to adapt, for example if you were to make a campaign centered in an elven kingdom, you could substitute elvish for common.

[Grimsage Matt]

Seeing how this has all the people who look at the "Chiche" camapains, want to ask some things about one I'll try running.

Spoiler

Show

It's postapoclyptic earth. The Aztecs where half right. The world didn't end, but human civilzation collapsed. Toronto (where it takes place), has your average freaks. There are Cylocp Smiths in the Nuclear power plant, that are making nuclear power weapons/armor/monster trucks. The University of Toronto is now home to wizards... and turns invisible about 9 times a week. Tesla is back from the grave, and has converted the CN tower into a new mad science lair. The Necromancers are mantianing the graveyards. The Arch-Bishop is calling for a crusade.

The races use the custom build rules (mutations and all) but they all use the human lifespan.

The only 3 base classes are the Generic Expert, Spellcaster and Warrior from Unearthed Arcana.

You can meet (a) god. He's in a irish bar. You can also find JC, in the jewish temple.

The Angels are so anal retentive and "All that is not pure must be purged" that people mistake them for demons. Heck, the Demons/Devils? They form the community watch.

New York is overrun with Lovecraft like creatures, and the bible belt has been wiped out so utterly that people say it's "in hell".

So, how does it look? Trying not to make it cliche/a poorly designed world, so asking you guys.

[awa]

the 2012 prediction refer to the mayans not the aztec.

edit
also ive never been entirely clear on the religion rules on this form but i think that violates it

edit x2
also it should probbaly be in home brew world building section assuming the religious refrences dont kill it and im increasingly thinking thats likely

edit 3
thats what i get for having two tabs open forget wich section im in

[Inglenook]

Why so? I think it makes sense, if you are in England, common would refer to English, in Germany to German, in Portugal to Portuguese and so on.

But if this is the case, then why (by RAW) can you traverse the entire globe and communicate perfectly with everyone who speaks Common?

And if the "Common is used to mean each region's version of Common" thing is what they intended, why say Common (England) and Common (Germany) when what you really mean is English and German?

I could maybe buy it for other races, though, if their mindset is alien enough that they can happily share a single standardized way of speaking without the incessant human need to create slang and dialects that later grow into full-blown languages.

[Eldan]

In AD&D, at least, the book pretty specifically told you "We, the designers, can't think of everything. Change the rules if you think they don't make sense in a situation".
That would be such a case.

[Yora]

And if the "Common is used to mean each region's version of Common" thing is what they intended, why say Common (England) and Common (Germany) when what you really mean is English and German?

Because there are a lot more languages in both England and Germany than just English and German. And while 99% can understand Standard German and are mostly able to make themselves understood in it, I'd say at least two thirds of all people can also talk in ways that people from other parts of the country can't understand. And that's without getting into foreign languages like English or Turkish.

Also, a rulebook does not know what countries there are in a campaign and what languages the people speak. So they says "the language that people primarily use in the area where the campaign takes place".
Of course, that was decades ago and newer editions of D&D don't have anything like that, and I'm not even sure it appeared in more than one book on campaign design. But it does make a lot of sense.

[C.J.Geringer]

But if this is the case, then why (by RAW) can you traverse the entire globe and communicate perfectly with everyone who speaks Common?

By this rules, you can´t. They were made for a campaign set in a specific region. Each region would have it´s own language which would be "Common" for them.


And this also happens where common is more of a lingua franca. For example:

In Faerun(3.0), Common was a trade language used as a lingua franca, however, it was specific for the heartlands, if you traveled to a remote village, with no outside trade they would not speak common. If you went to the far east you would not understand their common language.

And if the "Common is used to mean each region's version of Common" thing is what they intended, why say Common (England) and Common (Germany) when what you really mean is English and German?

Because the designers had no idea in which setting/region you campaign would take place. and "common" is shorter and easier to use/write than "the appropriate dominant language for the region where the campaign is taking place"

Edit: Yora beat me to it

I could maybe buy it for other races, though, if their mindset is alien enough that they can happily share a single standardized way of speaking without the incessant human need to create slang and dialects that later grow into full-blown languages.

This rules(which were made to be practical and simple, not realistic for a complex setting), assume that either, the other races, are not that numerous, and thus share a language, that the specific language is specific to the ones near the campaign(e.g.:the "Dwarven" language is the language of the dwarves in the neighboring mountains, and thus of the dwarves commonly found int the campaign, not necessarily of all dwarves), or that it is a race's version of common(e.g.:each dwarven real has it´s own language, but they use "Dwarven" as a lingua franca).

[C.J.Geringer]

Am I the only one who thinks that would actually be very interesting, not just as a vague concept, but as an actual RULE in the setting. If the Forces of good create a Holy Sword, they must also create an Unholy Sword with the exact same properties, same goes for the forces of Evil creating an Unholy Sword.

Sanctuary(the setting for the "Diablo" games) has something like this.

Every time a demon enters the world the means of his defeat also do.(e.g.: a magical weapon).

And there is never a hero born without a weakness or character flaw that can be exploited. This conditions mean that who dominates sanctuary(heaven or hell, or none) is decided by the mortal races.

[Eldan]

And if the "Common is used to mean each region's version of Common" thing is what they intended, why say Common (England) and Common (Germany) when what you really mean is English and German?

As Yora said, German has a Common Language. It's the one we write in, which is often quite different from what people speak. I can not understand some people who live within 200 kilometers from here when they speak their own dialect. Not a word of it. It's still German. And that's not going into some of the weirder stuff that is spoken in Germany.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

As Yora said, German has a Common Language. It's the one we write in, which is often quite different from what people speak. I can not understand some people who live within 200 kilometers from here when they speak their own dialect. Not a word of it. It's still German. And that's not going into some of the weirder stuff that is spoken in Germany.

That's actually very intriging. Curious about the dialect varancies and how they differ, and are still alike. Is it basic pronounciation?

[Yora]

Pronounciation is the most important factor. I am from the very north and most people under 50 from that region speak very similar to the German used on TV and in movies. But I know some young people from central Germany and they have a hard time understanding older people who grew up in rural areas in the north. Other regions have much more variation in pronounciation and with older people you might get the situation that "foreign Germans" can't understand their speech at all. I lived quite far in the south for almost 8 years and I still keep asking people to repeat what they said to me for a second and a third time instead of just saying "okay" and skipping over it.
Then there is also vocabulary, which has lots of words that are used only in specific regions and don't exist in others. You'd have a hard time finding Gör, Griepsch, Flunsch, krüsch, kacheln, drömeln, or Plünn'n in any English-German dictionary. And I'd guess 200 km from my home, nobody else would know those words either.
And that's just how young urban people talk at home with their parents. When my grandparents are chatting with their friends, even I have a hard time keeping up. And my Gradfather grew up in the same city as I did, just 50 years earlier.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Pronounciation is the most important factor. I am from the very north and most people under 50 from that region speak very similar to the German used on TV and in movies. But I know some young people from central Germany and they have a hard time understanding older people who grew up in rural areas in the north. Other regions have much more variation in pronounciation and with older people you might get the situation that "foreign Germans" can't understand their speech at all. I lived quite far in the south for almost 8 years and I still keep asking people to repeat what they said to me for a second and a third time instead of just saying "okay" and skipping over it.
Then there is also vocabulary, which has lots of words that are used only in specific regions and don't exist in others. You'd have a hard time finding Gör, Griepsch, Flunsch, krüsch, kacheln, drömeln, or Plünn'n in any English-German dictionary. And I'd guess 200 km from my home, nobody else would know those words either.
And that's just how young urban people talk at home with their parents. When my grandparents are chatting with their friends, even I have a hard time keeping up. And my Gradfather grew up in the same city as I did, just 50 years earlier.

Similar then to say, spelling and pronounciation of english with England, Australia and America, but to a more difficult degree and in the same country?

[awa]

even in just america their are fairly strong acents between diffrent locations not to even counting slang and such

[Yora]

I guess so. But I'm not sure if we actually have a good compairison for those. After all, we usually get to hear americans, irish, and australians only from TV shows and movies, and that's always limited to a degree to be understood at least by native english speakers from other countries or even foreign speakers.
I wouldn't be suprised if there are some rural backwaters in England or Australia, where older people still speak in ways that are unrecognizable by cityfolk.
The exception are programs made for local audiences, but those usually never get any widespread exposure for the same reason. Here's a scene from a north german movie and they all really get into it. The two guys at the table are rather moderate, but that old farmer is hardcore. Even I only understanf 90% of what he's saying. I would guess most people who don't speak German wouldn't even guess that it could be German by the sound of it.
I wonder if Eldan can understand anything of it.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Hm. So, because of dialect differences, if I were to go visit the town that was named after my last name (or perhaps visa versa because I'm not sure of the history), I might not be able to understand the people there even if I learned/knew "common" German?

[Umbraeques]

And indeed similar to English within England. Some cities, 50 or so miles apart can have accents so different that it takes quite considerable effort for each to understand the other. Local slang and even word order in some sentences can vary tremendously.

The same is true even within the US; take the stereotypical New Yorker say, and drop them deep in the country in Louisianna and see how well they can communicate with the locals.

TV has homogenised the language somewhat, but local variations exist that almost could be a seperate language. I suspect this may be true for all nations and/or languages (with sufficient speakers/locales).


Anyways, back to the OP. Something that occurs to me is that many worlds have multiple nations, and races, most if not all with armies, castles and the like - many disliking each other, yet no major conflicts appear to be ongoing or have happened recently.