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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marthian View Post
    Something to note: Sorcerers make better Liches :P

    No really, if you don't know them, Liches are undead, and from my understanding: the undead use charisma instead of constitution, which really is a big deal.
    Valid point, in that aspect, but wizards are better at protecting phylacteries due to greater access to obscure spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
    Successful sorcerors are likeable, that's pretty much what having a high charisma means.
    No it doesn't. A high Charisma means they have a major influence on people, but that doesn't have to be through being likeable--they might take the Xykon approach and use their charisma to simply terrify everyone around them into doing what they want.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marthian View Post
    Something to note: Sorcerers make better Liches :P

    No really, if you don't know them, Liches are undead, and from my understanding: the undead use charisma instead of constitution, which really is a big deal.
    What have Wizards to do with Constitution? In that regard, they are the very same as Sorcerers.
    And the undead use Charisma for what exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorator View Post
    Valid point, in that aspect, but wizards are better at protecting phylacteries due to greater access to obscure spells.
    If you play by the rules, you usually can get any spell in the book as scroll. So Sorcerers cannot "learn" a spell for re-use, but they have full access (for gold) to them as well.
    That might make a difference in a fight or in any "closed" setting, like a dungeon where time is an issue. For warding a home or an item with all the time required it makes no difference at all.
    Last edited by Winter; 2012-09-16 at 02:39 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    What have Wizards to do with Constitution? In that regard, they are the very same as Sorcerers.
    And the undead use Charisma for what exactly?
    Undead use Charisma as their Constitution score:

    Constitution (Con)

    Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.

    You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

    Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
    Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
    Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.

    If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.
    So a "nice to have" stat becomes equal to thier highest stat.

    More HP, better Concentration check, and I am sure other bonuses.
    Last edited by AlaskaOOTSFan; 2012-09-16 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Added more info
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    With the Sorcerer/Wizard rivalry, it seems pretty natural to me for two groups of casters working off of the same list but in such a different way.

    Sorcerers have raw power in terms of their number of spells and spontaneous casting, but they are highly constrained in using it. They have a tiny number of spells known, which is almost impossible (bless you, Knowstones) to increase, and they get their spells a full level after a Wizard would. Without Feats or ACFs they are also pretty poor at using Metamagic, which flies in the face of the whole concept of the Sorcerer but whatever.

    Wizards are more versatile overall; Wizards can easily accumulate huge numbers of spells in their spell-books, through research scrolls or paying to copy spells from other wizards, and can prepare new spells every day. They are also smarter, with a corresponding increase in access to skills, and get free bonus feats related to magic and magic item creation.

    So it makes sense for a Sorcerer to resent a Wizard, the same way a Paladin might resent a Cleric; they're playing at a clear disadvantage doing pretty much the same things. At the same time, Wizards might see Sorcerers as incompetents or just envy the lack of book-keeping which plagues Wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaOOTSFan View Post
    Undead use Charisma as their Constitution score:

    <SRD Definition of Constitution>

    So a "nice to have" stat becomes equal to thier highest stat.

    More HP, better Concentration check, and I am sure other bonuses.
    The problem is that, as the SRD says, Undead only use Charisma in place of Constitution for Constitution checks. No extra HP, no bonuses to Constitution-based skills like Concentration, no increase to Fortitude saves. It is, in every way, a negligible bonus.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Not that Xykon needs much in the way of extra HP anyway, given he has d12 hit dice due to his undead status.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Not that Xykon needs much in the way of extra HP anyway, given he has d12 hit dice due to his undead status.
    Eh? High level intelligent undead have FEWER HP than live wizards.

    Consider a level 20 wizard PC. He started with a 14 in Con, and did nothing to improve it other than a single item he can make for himself. At high level he averages 7.5 HP/level (151.5 including the max for level 1), undead he'd average 6.5 HP/level (135 if he still gets max for level 1).

    So by the time you can afford +6 con items (which the wizard can make himself) the undead character has fewer HP than any non likely non-undead PC. Then there's the LA for being undead so you have fewer HD in the first place.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    I'm wondering if some people might have gotten mixed up between 3.5e and Pathfinder. One of the changes they made in Pathfinder is that undead gain their charisma bonus to HP in place of their con score. In 3.5e they don't, charisma only matters for con checks, most of which undead ignore anyway.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    eh, I prefer it to think that Sorcerers are more street smart and people-savy while Wizards are book-smart specialists….

    but that still doesn't stop my sorcerer from using Spellcraft and Use Magic Device like a hacker

    and please keep in mind…this sort of spellcasting elitism can work both ways….

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharinelle
    She said with a mischievous smile and even more mischievous twinkle in her eyes. she walked right up to the wizard and imitated a noblewoman's voice.

    "My word, Natasha! How dare he insult the Ancient and Proud Lineages of the Sorcerous Bloodlines! Is it not sad, that the world has reduced spellcasting from its noble high art to mere trickery that pops out of odd little books carried around by commoners? I mean really, them with their drab and dull language, their overly technical approach of incantation, it simply has no life or art to it darling, no art at all! Unlike us sorcerers who are cultured and wise to the ways of the world outside dusty tomes, who are in tune with magic is in its natural state, ohohohohoho…."

    She continued showing how a sorcerer can be a cultured, refined jerk using flowery language and demonstrating how elitism can work both ways, all with a smile on her face about how she knew everything she was saying was like, half garbage.
    I mean really, the whole conflict is silly. Wizards are more useful for some things, Sorcerers are more useful for other things, they aren't that different anyways, and you take what spellcaster you can get for the most part...
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Do we know that Wizards hate and/or despise Sorcerers? We know that some Wizards do, but that's very unlikely to be neither ubiquitous nor Wizard-specific. Is it actually stated in the comic that there's a class-wide tension?
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weimann View Post
    Do we know that Wizards hate and/or despise Sorcerers? We know that some Wizards do, but that's very unlikely to be neither ubiquitous nor Wizard-specific. Is it actually stated in the comic that there's a class-wide tension?
    Best I can give you is that every Wizard in the comic who has had occasion to comment upon Sorcerers has commented upon the inferiority of Sorcerers to Wizards.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    One of the things that probably frustrates high-level sorcerers is that while the Wizard complaint is more valid at low levels, you don't get to be high level just by coasting through life. It's like a music student complaining about how another music student got into a prestigious music school on natural talent alone while the first one had to work his ass off, while completely ignoring the fact that to graduate, the naturally talented student has to practice just as much as the other student, and the other student constantly rubs it in to the naturally talented music student.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    On the undead and Cha thing, there is a feat that lets them use Cha for bonus HP.So ya, feat tax, but undead Sorcerer can use it.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimsage Matt View Post
    On the undead and Cha thing, there is a feat that lets them use Cha for bonus HP.So ya, feat tax, but undead Sorcerer can use it.
    No, there actually isn't. It's a special ability that got liberally applied to Undead in later books because the designers realized that Undead actually came out behind on HP, but it never got made a feat.

    Unholy Toughness would be a reasonable thing to make into a feat, though.
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorator View Post
    I want to know what the occasional Ultimate Magus (sorcerer/wizard) thinks on the subject.
    My Guess, they'd find the wizards are having issues with someone else being more "gifted" magically - but are feeling intellectually superior. And they'd appreciate the sorcerer's talents, but find their lack of intellectual curiosity about what they do disappointing (or lazy). This is the combination of talent and training that Chaos Queen alluded to initially - a gifted fighter is one with potential. A gifted fighter who hones his skill and shows a greater understanding is one who is truly impressive.

    It kind of falls apart when you bring it back to the rules, but it sounds good on paper.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    If you play by the rules, you usually can get any spell in the book as scroll. So Sorcerers cannot "learn" a spell for re-use, but they have full access (for gold) to them as well.
    That might make a difference in a fight or in any "closed" setting, like a dungeon where time is an issue. For warding a home or an item with all the time required it makes no difference at all.
    Which is why I said wizards have greater access to those spells - and on the off chance they have to cast them again, well, they're in their book still. While a sorcerer has to go hunt down scrolls of all these various obscure spells again. It's annoying enough to have to do that for the divine-only spells you want on your phylactery, not to mention half the arcane ones too. (And wizards probably have greater traffic in scrolls & spellbook swapping than sorcerers, too, so it'll be easier for them to obtain those in the first place.)

    This is, of course, assuming you don't have an uber-magic-mart where you can just as easily get a scroll of sepia snake sigil as you can a scroll of dispel magic or summon monster III.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I mean really, the whole conflict is silly.
    Definitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    It kind of falls apart when you bring it back to the rules, but it sounds good on paper.
    I think this is true about almost every aspect of D&D, heh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Wizards fear sorcerers because the latter threatens to take the former's role in a party and make them obsolete. Even though it's a baseless fear, wizards can be irrational in spite of their intelligence. The contempt the former shows toward the latter is just how they try to justify their superiority.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Also, Wizard are tier-1, Sorcerers are tier-s (source). I would not even bring this up, but the tier system has ben referenced in-comic (Small Talk: tier envy, panel 5) and thus should be considered a valid argument from the characters' perspective as well.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Because they'r inferior genetic deviations who don't understand the awesome power mistakenly bestowed upon their pinky since they didn't have to work for their misbegotten power.

    ...I'm just saying.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Think of it like this: You've spent your entire life just to master cantrips, and this guy never had to open a single book to cast magic missile. What you had to work countless hours, nay, years to obtain, they didn't have to do anything. You think wizards are going to think that's fair?

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaOOTSFan View Post
    Undead use Charisma as their Constitution score: [...]
    I fear we need to call your GM and tell him your Liche does not work as you told him it would.

    On the other hand: Hist Big Bad Lich also now has much less HPs.

    In general, Undead lose their Con, but that does not matter as they are immune to most things they need to make a Con (fort) check anyway.

    They use Charisma for Concentration-checks now, which is actually nice for Sorcerer-Lichs (but usually truly ugly for Wizard-Lichs).

    If they have to make a fort-check (against some damaging spell as, for example), the modifier is considered to be 0.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    "Truly ugly". Heh.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Best I can give you is that every Wizard in the comic who has had occasion to comment upon Sorcerers has commented upon the inferiority of Sorcerers to Wizards.
    Has V done it?
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    Has V done it?
    Not commented on, but reacted in a way that supports it, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Queen View Post
    But what about the fact that Xykon mopped the floor with Vaarsuvius while she was pumped up on wizard steroids? I think it all depends on the dedication.
    That wasn't about Wizard vs. Sorcerer; it was about levels of power. And for at least part of it, power took the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen skill checks.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    I know its mentioned in the official rules, but I really don't like the idea that "sorcerers don't need to study or train, and cannot be taught - they just do magic" (and presumably suddenly and randomly get new spells for no reason when they level up).

    Just because they are not scholars needn't mean they can't learn or practice or be taught - any more than a fighter or rogue (or even barbarian or bard).

    I don't see anything wrong (conceptually) with the idea of a sorcerer who is naturally able to channel magic and cast spells spontaneously, but needs to be mentored in how to do so by a more experienced sorcerer, followed by practicing in doing so (and in aiming their spells, etc).

    Whether your character is like that, or is self-taught, or (as per the rules) gets all his abilities handed to him for free while sitting in the tavern ought to be a role-playing choice, not dictated by the rules.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    I know its mentioned in the official rules, but I really don't like the idea that "sorcerers don't need to study or train, and cannot be taught - they just do magic" (and presumably suddenly and randomly get new spells for no reason when they level up).
    I think here comes in your personal flavor of roleplaying the character. How exactly does your powers develop? Are you just partying between adventures and are happy you get power by heritage or are you studying and training harder than any wizard to find out more about you? That is only your own (as player) choice.

    And no matter which one you chose: the character does learn by using his abilities, which is reflected in the levels he gains. So just getting superpowerful as sorcerer is not what happens by sitting around.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Just because they are not scholars needn't mean they can't learn or practice or be taught - any more than a fighter or rogue (or even barbarian or bard).
    Charisma is their primary casting stat, though, which means it's entirely possible to have a fully functional sorcerer with barely-above-animal-level intelligence. This is what the rules mean when they talk about a sorcerer's casting being instinctive--it's as natural to them as their arms or legs, and a baby doesn't usually need a lot of coaching to be able to walk!

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Wizards generally view magic as a science that is to be studied and generally spend a large portion of their lives doing so. Sorcerers generally have magic as a gift and can use it without any sort of real training. While this is mostly just fluff in terms of the D&D game, it can be used as a tool to create a sort of resentment between the two classes.

    Wizards would view Sorcerers as someone who essentially does well, if not haphazardly something they have dedicated their lives to with very minimal effort. It's like if you study for months on some test and find out some 8 year old just walked in and did the test as well as you due to some natural talent. A bit of resentment could easily follow on that.

    Sorcerers are however specialized to a very specific set of spells, and could be resentful at the fact that Wizards are capable to learning a vast array of magics while they are stuck with the small amount of power they are gifted with. So the dislike can go both ways.

    Keep in mind this is all pretty much flavor text, but as far as any situation in the comic that implies Wiz vs Sorc rivalry, I would chalk it up to this.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Sorcies get all the magic by genetics and not study.
    Also, since they are Char based, they get all the girls/guys

    Its like a geek (Wizard) and a Jock (sorcerer), and the jock is so lucky he get a better job in nerdy things than the geek

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