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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    Think of it like this: You've spent your entire life just to master cantrips, and this guy never had to open a single book to cast magic missile. What you had to work countless hours, nay, years to obtain, they didn't have to do anything. You think wizards are going to think that's fair?
    And the sorcerers resent this attitude because that's only true at first level at most. Experience comes through practice, and while Sorcerers instinctively learn what they know, they don't learn it by sitting on their asses. They do it through lots and lots of practice, but Wizards like to believe they just get their magic and won't shut up about it.

    Another analogy would be the self-made millionaire complaining that the other guy inherited his fortune. While true, at higher levels the analogy would be like the inheritor getting resentful at the fact that the self-made guy is still complaining despite the fact that the inheritor quintupled his worth on his own initiative.
    Last edited by MReav; 2012-10-09 at 10:58 AM.
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    In the hope that we can neutralize DD in the same way that a base neutralizes an acid?

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    TV Tropes has an entire article on this phenomenon: Unequal Rites
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    I remember it coming up in SoD. Wizards think that since they can cast a wider range of spells and change them each day to suit any situation they are awesomer, more or less. Kinda reflecting the general gaming attitude, which was the point.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    the way I see it its like the difference between a physicist and an engineer

    The wizard is like a physicist, he/she has a near perfect understanding of the theory behind how the world works, but can put less of it into practice at a given time (fewer spells per day, more spells overall). In addition to this, wizards spend long amounts of time in their Ivory Tower (possibly literal) and don't tend to have a good deal of practical knowledge about how the world works.(low charisma high int)

    The engineer is the sorceror. He/she tends to have a decent general knowledge of the theory behind the work, but focuses more on the practical application of it (less spells but more uses per day and more flexible use of known spells). The sorcerour does not need to focus as hard on the theoy, though a working knowledge of it is still important, as the wizard and thus is able to spend more time out in the world learning practical things and learning to work with people (high Charisma)


    *disclaimer, no offence intended to physicists, out there, I am an engineer. I tried to be unbiased but probably did not succeed.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eulmanis12 View Post
    the way I see it its like the difference between a physicist and an engineer

    The wizard is like a physicist, he/she has a near perfect understanding of the theory behind how the world works, but can put less of it into practice at a given time (fewer spells per day, more spells overall). In addition to this, wizards spend long amounts of time in their Ivory Tower (possibly literal) and don't tend to have a good deal of practical knowledge about how the world works.(low charisma high int)

    The engineer is the sorceror. He/she tends to have a decent general knowledge of the theory behind the work, but focuses more on the practical application of it (less spells but more uses per day and more flexible use of known spells). The sorcerour does not need to focus as hard on the theoy, though a working knowledge of it is still important, as the wizard and thus is able to spend more time out in the world learning practical things and learning to work with people (high Charisma)


    *disclaimer, no offence intended to physicists, out there, I am an engineer. I tried to be unbiased but probably did not succeed.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    He also said engineers are well known for their high Charisma, which makes me wonder which planet he comes from.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    He also said engineers are well known for their high Charisma, which makes me wonder which planet he comes from.
    no, I said that engineers had more practical knowledge while phisicists had more theoretical knowledge, I said this was similar, not the same thing to int and cha. I understand that its not a perfect comparison but no comparison between real world and fantasy will be perfect. the point I was driving at was that a sorceror is better able to apply magic to any given situation while a wizard is more able to understand exactly what is happening but will have more difficulty applying this knowlege.

    (though I could claim that I live in a world where as an engineer I have to coordinate the actions of over a hundred people of varying levels of skill, from several different branches of engineering, in order to first design, then construct, then impliment the various projects I am a part of, a job that in addition to drawing upon my knowledge of engineering requires me to be able to get people to follow my orders when necesary, and work together at all times, things that one might use a cha stat for in D&D)

    I said this was similar to the PhysicistvsEngineer scenario, a physicist will have a better understanding than I do of why the electrons do what they do in a radio for example, but I would do a better job actually designing and building said radio.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    It comes to me now that it would make more sense the opposite: for sorcerers to be dismissive of wizards. They cast spells istinctively, while wizards need years of studies to do the same. from the sorcerors point of view, wizards must look like retarded who need years to figure out what's obvious to them. Plus, they can learn and memorize all the tricks but they don't really understand magic. they even need their books to cast spells, and are incapable of high magic without them.

    I say this because am an acccomplished chessplayer who never studied any book, and I often felt like that towards players who studied a lot and were still weaker than me; there is a close similarity betweeen the two situations. Xykon apparently feels so, given his speech to dorukan. I know it's not pretty, but it's a natural feeling. my friends, who also were not he studious kind, felt the same. if you are talented it feels easy for you, and you don't understand how other people have so much troubles understanding it.
    Plus, there's the fact that people who studied tend to know by memory all the openings, so they will always play the best moves at he beginning of the game, but then they will squander their advantage because they don't know what to do. In fact, if you play a wrong move, they often don''t know the proper answer to it and can't find it on the chessboard, with the paradoxal result that against such players it can be convenient to intentionally play bad moves. From my point of view that is not understanding the game at all. Sorcerors probably feel the same towards wizards.
    From the point of view of a studious player, on the other hand, I probably don't understand chess because I often have no idea if a certain endgame can be won or not, and base my choice only on previous experience of similar positions, possibly biased by my mistakes or by those of the opponent. That would be the wozard's pow.

    Last, it has to be mentioned that while I never studied chess on books, I didn't really receive my skill as a gift. For 10 years I've been playing at the chess club everytime it was open, and I did every tournament within a 100 km range from my house, so I spent practicing all the time that other people spent studying. Another similarity to the wizard/sorceror situation.
    Last edited by King of Nowere; 2012-10-17 at 04:14 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    The parallel with chess players also occured to me and I think it's pretty good. On less prestige tournaments (average FIDE rating up to 2100 or so) the difference can be seen quite often. There are the sorcerer-like players who have the natural insight into the game, but are uninterested in theory and only gain experience by playing. Then there are the wizards - those who analyze the games, study textbook openings, work with databases and engines, most of the time they even prepare for their opponent by studying his/her older games etc.

    Generally, the wizard-players take the game much more seriously and can sometimes be envious of the sorcerer's talent. Also, they tend to make mistakes more often when the playing environment is not optimal (little time left, noise etc). Sorcerers, on the other hand, are sometimes impatient, may get bored with the game and can easily underestimate their opponent. So it's somehow balanced.

    Of course, to ascend to the highest echelons of chess playing one needs both natural talent and serious theoretical background.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    What we learn from this thread is that anyone can justify their chauvinism to themselves if they try hard enough. And maybe if they're lucky they'll convince others too!
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    What we learn from this thread is that anyone can justify their chauvinism to themselves if they try hard enough. And maybe if they're lucky they'll convince others too!
    Yes, that is usually what happens in the real world (of OotS, of course). Not everyone does it, but a lot of people do it.
    "My group vs. theirs". Engineers vs. Physicists, Upper Class vs. Lower, White Skin vs. Green Skin, People who wear Green Boots vs. People who wear Black ones, North vs. South, Sword vs. Sorcery, Motorcycle vs. Car, City vs. Land, etc etc etc etc etc.

    Be it profession, philosophy, religion (of OotS, of course), taste, birthmarks, ... you pick your choice and you will always find people who draw (sometimes arbitrary, sometimes silly) lines and borders and find reasons why this might be better than that. It's pretty universal behaviour and probably has to do with that "you can trust your tribe but not anyone from any other".
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    @King of Nowere

    Looking from a purely objective point of view (ie. look at the RAW and don't consider anything else) is hard for sorcerer to be dismissive of wizard since the latter are usually better at what they do.
    To reuse your chess paragon it's like if someone who spent the same number of years you practiced at chess just reading about the rules and the best moves, and manages to beat you 7 or 8 times out of 10.


    @eulmanis12
    First, I was kidding at the comparison (I am an engineer too) I kinda liked it.
    Second the problem I have with your comparison is that I don't think describes well the situation, see phisicist and engineers, despite the rivalry, don't do the same job, the former are theoreticist that try to explain how thing works, the latter are practicist that, once know how a thing work try to figure out what can be used for; the wizard and the sorcerer on the other hand do the same job, the arcane caster.
    The distinction I picture is the sorcerer is the (worker, phisicist, engineer, take your pick) specialized in a narrow field, the wizard the generalist one who can work in any field, if we are in the particular field the sorcerer specialize he can resolve problems faster an better, otherwise he struggles; the wizard instead given enough time, can solve the problems in any possible field almost as better as the sorcerer.

    Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915
    What we learn from this thread is that anyone can justify their chauvinism to themselves if they try hard enough. And maybe if they're lucky they'll convince others too!
    Ain't that the truth.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    What we learn from this thread is that anyone can justify their chauvinism to themselves if they try hard enough. And maybe if they're lucky they'll convince others too!
    Yep, that's a common trait of mankind.

    And it's partially justified in people being used to being themselves. People have different skills, and with time they get used to them and learn to use them to the best while compensating for their flaws in some way. So after a while it comes naturla to consider our skillset to be the best one.
    An engineer will learn to use his practical ability in a way that is not hampered by his lower theoretical knowledge. A scientist learn to use his teoretical skill without being hampered by his lower practical ability. neither would exchange position, because both learned to get the best out of what they have.
    Sorcerers and wizards have different advantages. a sorcerer will use lots of times the same spell in a day and would never do with being able to cast it only once. a wizard will be used to variety and preparing for every occurrrence. if a sorcerer would get the powers of a wizard, he would learn 3 fireballs and 3 lighting bolts as his 3rd level spells and complain he can't dela as much damage as he used to do. or he would complain that after spending some spells in an encounter, he don't have them anymore and is out of good spells shall a similar encounter arise again. A wizard getting sorcerous powers would go crazy because he cann't prepare different spells in the morning if he want to pull out some strange combo. He probably would not think on casting the same spell 6 times in a row could be a good idea. Both adapted to use their powers at the best.

    in the end, as xykon said, power is power. it don't matter much what form it takes, be it the chance to prepare different spells for each encounter or to cast the same spells multiuple times.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    You know, now that I think about it, wizards look down on pretty much every other class. I think their contempt for sorcerers mainly comes from them seeing sorcerers treading on their shoes, so they get extra personal with that.

    I am curious though, what would be the relationship between wizards and psions, since they too require intense amount of study (not necessarily books, but still).
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Thereís another aspect of that debate that should be considered, but I havenít seen it yet in the discussion:

    Class.

    No, not character classes. Social classes.

    To become a wizard, one needs lengthy and costly studies. The wizardís starting age is one of the highest, and just the most vital tool of their trade, the spellbook, is pricey, not to mention all the other costs of learning.

    A wizard needs to be well-educated from the start, and certainly have no time for any other ďhonestĒ work during his or her studies. Whether you become a wizard through apprenticeship with a more experienced master, or some wizarding schools exists, it is certainly something reserved for the upper crusts.

    An exceptionnaly intelligent individual coming from a lower income background might become a wizard, but only if he receives some sponsoring, or have extremely dedicated parents ready to sacrifice a lot for their childís sake. Most often, he or she will rather be oriented toward some more immediately lucrative job.

    This means that a majority of wizards will come from the wealthy portions of society. By contrast, sorcerers can appear within every social class. They can perfectly come from a ďtwo-horse townĒ just like Xykon. All they need is the proper ancestry. It doesnít matter that their parents were just peasants or craftsmen, and that they were expected to take over the familyís craft; their powers manifest naturally, and at a much younger age than wizards.

    Sure, you can have the occasional sorcerer born from a wealthy family too, but they are more the exception than the norm. (Those are, IMO, the more likely to becomes Ultimate Magus anyway.)

    Even as they rise in power, wizards are more expected to serve nobilities or royalties as counselors. Their trade being extremely costly, they favor having a wealthy patron.

    Though sorcerors may vary widely, those that arenít chased away from their modest communities are most likely to stay on the fringe of it as a local witchdoctor or potion maker, a bit feared by their peers but called upon when the people need some magical help.

    Hence the wizard/sorcerer opposition is likely to double as a social clash between classes. Wizards are elitists not just because of their powers, but also from the natural snobbery of their birth. Sorcerers are more lickely to be country hicks or from the unwashed masses. This certainly will add some fuel to the issue.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    TV Tropes has an entire article on this phenomenon: Unequal Rites
    My favorite part about that article is that it quotes a poster on this forum (SPoD) and provides a link to the post. And the sig in the linked post is blasting on TV Tropes.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    In fairness, that "blasting" is based on a misunderstanding.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    I tend to think of the issue more as a nerd vs. jock conflict. The wizard (nerd) knows the principles behind what he's doing, he's studied it extensively, and this extensive learning gives him a wide range of options. The sorcerer (jock) knows what he's doing intuitively, which gives him less of a range, but also gives him more firing power- more spells per day, no need to study spells before equipping them, powers that tend toward the "blaster" type.

    The wizards' disdain for the sorcerers is due to a combination of intelligence and insecurity: their learning allows them to find multiple possible solutions to a puzzle, so they tend to value that multi-faceted quality in magic, but they have to know that if they ever go toe-to-toe with a sorcerer, they stand a chance of being overwhelmed with a barrage of spells, as one Master Fryon learned to his sorrow.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougTheHead View Post
    but they have to know that if they ever go toe-to-toe with a sorcerer, they stand a chance of being overwhelmed with a barrage of spells, as one Master Fryon learned to his sorrow.
    I think you mean Dorukan. Fyron was not overwhelmed by a barrage of spells:

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    In fact, he won the *magical* duel, and then got his head smashed in by Xykon due to forgetting that a magically defeated enemy can still use their arms!

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think you mean Dorukan. Fyron was not overwhelmed by a barrage of spells:

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    In fact, he won the *magical* duel, and then got his head smashed in by Xykon due to forgetting that a magically defeated enemy can still use their arms!
    And what's more, Dorukan found joy in his defeat. These things have a way of working themselves out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    And what's more, Dorukan found joy in his defeat. These things have a way of working themselves out.
    I can't understand how an epic-level wizard like Dorukan didn't bother having Death Ward casted on him before battling an undead sorcerer! He should have used planar binding to call a celestial and kept it at hand in order to make it cast the spell on him when he needed fight Xykon.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I can't understand how an epic-level wizard like Dorukan didn't bother having Death Ward casted on him before battling an undead sorcerer!
    Energy Drain is a standard sorcerer spell--Xykon doesn't get it from being undead, so there's no way Dorukan could know that Death Ward would have helped him. The powers Xykon *does* get from being undead (high hit points, damage reduction, fear aura, paralysing touch) would be largely irrelevant in a high-level magic duel.

    Even if Energy Drain *was* something Xykon got from being undead, however, there's no guarantee Dorukan would know that. Epic level does not mean omniscient--he has to make his Knowledge checks the same way a level 1 peasant has to, and if he never specialised in knowledge of the undead, he'd have a good chance of failing that check.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Energy Drain is a standard sorcerer spell--Xykon doesn't get it from being undead, so there's no way Dorukan could know that Death Ward would have helped him. The powers Xykon *does* get from being undead (high hit points, damage reduction, fear aura, paralysing touch) would be largely irrelevant in a high-level magic duel.

    Even if Energy Drain *was* something Xykon got from being undead, however, there's no guarantee Dorukan would know that. Epic level does not mean omniscient--he has to make his Knowledge checks the same way a level 1 peasant has to, and if he never specialised in knowledge of the undead, he'd have a good chance of failing that check.
    But the necromancers and undead use a lot of level-drain and negative energy spells and effects. Dorukan should have protected himself from those.
    It's the same as fighting an Efreet: You are going to need protection against fire damage.
    And Dorukan wouldn't have survived so long if he had some basic knowledge about the attacks he could expect from different kinds of creatures.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    But the necromancers and undead use a lot of level-drain and negative energy spells and effects. Dorukan should have protected himself from those.
    Again, Knowledge(Religion). Also WE know all that but this does not mean that all characters in the universe do know it.

    But Durokans knowledge could have worked against him: He could have known that Xykon was a lich and that liches do not have a level drain ability. Therefore, he saw no need to protect against it, but just did what he'd do vs. any other Wizard or Sorcerer.

    No matter how you turn it: In the end it makes perfect sense (for different reason) why Dorukan did not have that spell up*.

    * For that matter, it seems he did not seem to have many spells up (no glowing etc). So provoking him into attacking and making mistakes** in that just worked as Xykon had hoped.

    ** Being epic does not mean you do not make mistakes.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    I'm with Clistenes on this, even if Durokan knew next to nothing about undead he still knew Xykon was making use of necromancy and, by the sheer fact of him being an epic wizard he has an intelligence of at least 19, and a bazillion ranks in spellcraft and knowledge(arcana) so he had to know there was a chance of the enemy using energy drain effect, yet he did not put any protection, despite the fact he, by his own words, "was preparing for this fight since [Xykon] arrived on my doorstep" (ie. around an year) and despite the fact that he ad 4 rounds of preparation. (30 second countdown before the teleport), and I don't even want to get started on the tactics used even though intelligence IS the stats that should govern logic, rational thinking and planning.
    The fight between Xykon and Durokan is entirely plot driven, don't get me wrong, it's still a more than enjoyable piece of story, but I consider a weak point in the overall story, hell the Varsavius fight was based on the same premises but was handled much more better.

    JM2C
    Last edited by Blue Lantern; 2012-11-21 at 01:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Lantern View Post
    I'm with Clistenes on this, even if Durokan knew next to nothing about undead he still knew Xykon was making use of necromancy and, by the sheer fact of him being an epic wizard he has an intelligence of at least 19, and a bazillion ranks in spellcraft and knowledge(arcana) so he had to know there was a chance of the enemy using energy drain effect, yet he did not put any protection, despite the fact he, by his own words, "was preparing for this fight since [Xykon] arrived on my doorstep" (ie. around an year) and despite the fact that he ad 4 rounds of preparation. (30 second countdown before the teleport), and I don't even want to get started on the tactics used even though intelligence IS the stats that should govern logic, rational thinking and planning.
    The fight between Xykon and Durokan is entirely plot driven, don't get me wrong, it's still a more than enjoyable piece of story, but I consider a weak point in the overall story, hell the Varsavius fight was based on the same premises but was handled much more better.

    JM2C
    Not only Energy Drain, there are a bajizillon necromantic negative energy attacks and death effects that can only be blocked by Death Ward or by very high Spell Resistance (which Dorukan apparently didn't have either).

    I mean, a powerful undead spellcaster with an army of undead, able to cast Soul Bind? That screams "necromancer".
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-11-22 at 12:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Knowledge Religion is a class skill of Wizards (knowledge any is one). He probably would have had a few ranks in it. V claims s/he's well versed in undead.
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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by MReav View Post
    V claims s/he's well versed in undead.
    Also, what is "well versed", especially if you count in that Vaarsuvius is known to brag. Is it 2 ranks? 5? 8? 12? I doubt the first numbers would be enough to reliable make knowledge check about "obscure" knowledge.
    Every check that is <75% to succeed can reasonably be assumed to have simply not been made.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Also, what is "well versed", especially if you count in that Vaarsuvius is known to brag. Is it 2 ranks? 5? 8? 12? I doubt the first numbers would be enough to reliable make knowledge check about "obscure" knowledge.
    Every check that is <75% to succeed can reasonably be assumed to have simply not been made.
    You keep beating this point to death () but as already explained there was no need for Durokan to know about undead in general and lich in particular to know that putting up a fight with an epic sorcerer without any protection whatsoever is not a very smart move, quite the opposite.
    After years of disintoxication I'm back in the D&D tunnel

    "I donít understand God. I donít understand how He could see the way people treat one another, and not chalk up the whole human race as a bad idea. I guess Heís just bigger about it than I would be."
    Jim Butcher-Dresden Files, book 3

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    Default Re: Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Lantern View Post
    You keep beating this point to death
    No, people keep bringing it up. And in this case it was about Vaarsuvius, not Dorukan (who acted very stupid and rash, just as Xykon had planned).
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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