Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

[King of Nowhere]

what if dorukan just had no way of casting death ward?
Someone mentioned binding a celestial to cast it, but that is the kind of things that if I were the DM would make me say "ok, there, a couple of solars knoking on your door...". I mean, you don't want to inimicate yourself to those kind of powers, no matter how powerful you are.
another option would be to cast it from limited wish, but that would have required spending xp, something no adventurer is eager to do. especially since dorukan was confident he could win anyway.
or maybe he had it on a wand, but didn't have the wand handy when xykon challenged him and didn't want to wait the time needed to find it, out of concern for lirian.
maybe he just forgot it. he had a list of spells he had to cast before confronting xykon, and he just missed it. I am pretty sure there's no one here who never said "damn, I forgoto to take X" when coming home from the shopping mall or going to vacation.
maybe he didn't knew of the existence of the spell. it is a divine spell, and many arcane casters are dismissive of clerical spells to the point of being quite ignorant on them (see V not knowing about the casting time of resurrection).
maybe dorukan DID actually cast the spell somehow, but xykon dispelled it. that fight took long enough, and they cast many spells offpanel.
So there's plenty of acceptale reasons why dorukan didn't have a death ward on him. Yes, they are unlikely, but not so unlikely that they couldn't have happened. Some people just don't want to accept them.

Also, being a lich has many more advantages than just hit points and fear aura and paralizying touch. namely, immunity to death effects, mind affecting spells, level drain, cold, electricity and a few other minor things. it's basically like having death ward, mind blank, and two greater resist elements always active. And that's a powerful asset in a magical duel. especially because you can fit your gear to cover just the few weaknesses you have left, so you can have much greater magical protection in those areas that are not covered by lich immunities.

[Felyndiira]

I think we're getting into SoD spoiler territory, so:

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Also, keep in mind that Dorukan never intended to fight Xykon in the first place. Him coming out in the first place is an act of snap judgment brought about by Xykon suddenly waving Lirian's soul gem in his face. For all that we know, Dorukan could have been planning to scry the lich first; or he might (and this is the most likely case) just be careless because he never planned to fight Xykon, and planning is a wizard's specialty.

Jumping out suddenly because of a moment of passion (and thus without appropriate protection) would probably have caused the death of a high-level wizard in any D&D, but Dorukan did snap, so judgment lapse isn't entirely implausible.

[Blue Lantern]

It's a long post so it'll split the answers

what if dorukan just had no way of casting death ward?
Someone mentioned binding a celestial to cast it, but that is the kind of things that if I were the DM would make me say "ok, there, a couple of solars knoking on your door...". I mean, you don't want to inimicate yourself to those kind of powers, no matter how powerful you are.

This refers SoD

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Yet he had no problem calling a bunch of celestial later during the fight. Also I personally thing the higher spheres would be understanding if asked help against a menace of Xykon caliber.

another option would be to cast it from limited wish, but that would have required spending xp, something no adventurer is eager to do. especially since dorukan was confident he could win anyway.
or maybe he had it on a wand, but didn't have the wand handy when xykon challenged him and didn't want to wait the time needed to find it, out of concern for lirian.

There is a fine line between arrogance and stupidity, being confident of your superiority is arrogance, throwing yourself in a fight to death against an enemy you have strong suspicion was able to kill an epic level druid without preparation is stupidity.

maybe he just forgot it. he had a list of spells he had to cast before confronting xykon, and he just missed it. I am pretty sure there's no one here who never said "damn, I forgoto to take X" when coming home from the shopping mall or going to vacation.

Again, not an option that screams "high intelligence right here!"

maybe he didn't knew of the existence of the spell. it is a divine spell, and many arcane casters are dismissive of clerical spells to the point of being quite ignorant on them (see V not knowing about the casting time of resurrection).

Still there are plently of other difences he could have used, not as effective granted, but better than nothing, even remaining all in core we have mage armor, shield, mirror image, displacement, invisibility, basically anything that would make him harder to be hit.

maybe dorukan DID actually cast the spell somehow, but xykon dispelled it. that fight took long enough, and they cast many spells offpanel.

Maybe, but even so show don't tell should be in effect, and even if that was the case it does not excuse the dumb behaviour during the fight.
Again SoD spoiler

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For instance after the first Energy drain, against which he had no defenses, he did nothing to prevent another, nor he tried to escape, and keeped doing nothing, not a smart move.
Even assuming he had his buffs dispelled (yet somehow maintaing his flight spell, what an amazing coincidence) even though the time frame make it a little difficult (We see Xykon using an energy drain right after finishing the angels and he clearly stated that Dorkukan used the time to buff himself), there are a numerous thing he could have done to help.
Even assuming the first energy drain hit for max (another amazing coincidence) and keeping count of the spell he cast, he should still have had all spells up to 6° level, he could have teleported or dimensioned door away, he could have used abjuration to increase his AC or used illusion to give him a miss chance, no he stood like a statue and keep being energy drained.
Yes there are a series of possibilities to include the scenario, even though all of them include a series of pretty dumb choices, but none is shown, and that's quite disappointing, for instance in the fight with Varsavius at least he tried to escape.

[QUOTE=King of Nowere;14278816]So there's plenty of acceptale reasons why dorukan didn't have a death ward on him. Yes, they are unlikely, but not so unlikely that they couldn't have happened. Some people just don't want to accept them.

The problem I have is not that they are unlikely, but that all of them involves an epic level wizard with certified 19 intelligence acting like an idiot.

Also, being a lich has many more advantages than just hit points and fear aura and paralizying touch. namely, immunity to death effects, mind affecting spells, level drain, cold, electricity and a few other minor things. it's basically like having death ward, mind blank, and two greater resist elements always active. And that's a powerful asset in a magical duel. especially because you can fit your gear to cover just the few weaknesses you have left, so you can have much greater magical protection in those areas that are not covered by lich immunities.

yes, but since Dorkukan, by his own admission, had the best part of a year to prepare for the fight, he should have done a better job, even assuming he rushed the confrontation.

I think we're getting into SoD spoiler territory, so:

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Also, keep in mind that Dorukan never intended to fight Xykon in the first place. Him coming out in the first place is an act of snap judgment brought about by Xykon suddenly waving Lirian's soul gem in his face. For all that we know, Dorukan could have been planning to scry the lich first; or he might (and this is the most likely case) just be careless because he never planned to fight Xykon, and planning is a wizard's specialty.

Jumping out suddenly because of a moment of passion (and thus without appropriate protection) would probably have caused the death of a high-level wizard in any D&D, but Dorukan did snap, so judgment lapse isn't entirely implausible.

Actually his words implies that he was merely waiting for Xykon to show Lirian soul before acting, and that he was preparing for than, not particularly effectively I might add.

My point being it's not that I have difficulties accepting Dorkukan defeat, but I have problem with the fact that any scenario I can picture involves him acting like an idiot.

[Kish]

Yes, Dorukan acted like an idiot. He believed that being a wizard made him superior to a sorcerer. Not only did he say as much to Xykon, but it's the central theme of the Order of the Scribble: They split up because each of them believed his or her art to be far superior to all the others.

As for Xykon defeating Lirian before, well, I'm sure Dorukan respected her as much as he respected anyone who wasn't a wizard. Similarly, he respected Xykon enough to use ninth-level spells against him; what more could an inferior spellcaster hope for? It's not like he just spammed Magic Missile and laughed, "Die, sorcerer!"

[Blue Lantern]

Ok it seems that I can not manage to make my point come across. If you create or use a framework in which your characters act that has a certain set of rules it is expected that those rules should be followed, or at least it should be given an explanation when they are not.
In this settings Wizard are supposed to have high intelligence, with intelligence being the capacity to reason logically, identify and asses a situation and make plans. Dorkukan seemed to have done none of those things, despite caliming the opposite.
I have heard a lot of possible justifications, low wisdom, overconfidence, he was pissed, etc... but I believe those justifications:

1) Are weak: Wisdom is hindsight, Intelligence is Cunning, low wisdom explains his underestimating the enemy and getting goaded. Throwing himself in the fight without protection, having spent almost an year in preparations that did not result in any noticeable advantage, and using extremely poor tactics is the mark of a low intelligence, and that clashes with the rules of the settings.

2) Should not be needed: I believe there is a difference between a piece of story that could be interpreted in different ways and one that requires razionalization to work.

This for me breaks the suspension of disbelief and also completely undermines all the speech Xykon gives about overwhelming power being better than precise planification because their fight did not showed that at all, Xykon did not win because he was stronger, he won because his adversary was dumb, even though he should not have.

Varsavius is at least as arrogant as Dorkukan yet, when given the power, despite being barely coherent from trance deprivation, stress and two evil souls whispering in his ears managed to put up a smarter fight, at the very least he did not engage without some protection beforehand and, when things went shout, he tried to escape.

[MReav]

what if dorukan just had no way of casting death ward?

Xykon was able to snag an anti-positive energy ring off of EBay. One would assume there would be similar rings/magical items for negative energy, especially since Death Ward is a Core spell.

[Clistenes]

Xykon was able to snag an anti-positive energy ring off of EBay. One would assume there would be similar rings/magical items for negative energy, especially since Death Ward is a Core spell.

Ring of Death Ward, (Source:Dragon #342, Price 60,000 gp). Tsukiko had one so she could have sex with her wights without getting killed.

[Winter]

Look, people: The point of that entire scene is that Xykon goaded Dorukan into making stupid mistakes. Dorukan probably made many, many more than just forgetting Death Ward when he ran into that fight without thinking it through, but the Death Ward thing was what killed him.

If Xykon had spammed Meteor Swarms instead, Dorukan would have fallen as well and we'd be discussing now why he was not protected against that. Or lightning. Or acid. Or whatever.

The point is not that Dorukan was not wearing an item vs. this or that, but that he rushed into it (as Xykon had planned) and was ruthlessly killed for that.

[Blue Lantern]

Look, people: The point of that entire scene is that Xykon goaded Dorukan into making stupid mistakes. Dorukan probably made many, many more than just forgetting Death Ward when he ran into that fight without thinking it through, but the Death Ward thing was what killed him.

If Xykon had spammed Meteor Swarms instead, Dorukan would have fallen as well and we'd be discussing now why he was not protected against that. Or lightning. Or acid. Or whatever.

The point is not that Dorukan was not wearing an item vs. this or that, but that he rushed into it (as Xykon had planned) and was ruthlessly killed for that.

Yes and the problem of that point is that Dorkukan being goaded into the fight does not justify at all the fact that he acted like a moron; especially since he claimed he was well prepared for the fight and was just waiting the moment Xykon showed the soul gem.

[sims796]

Ring of Death Ward, (Source:Dragon #342, Price 60,000 gp). Tsukiko had one so she could have sex with her wights without getting killed.

Goddammit, man. There were so many ways you could have written that sentence so I could retain my lunch. You did that on purpose, didn't you?

[Kish]

Varsavius is at least as arrogant as Dorkukan yet, when given the power, despite being barely coherent from trance deprivation, stress and two evil souls whispering in his ears managed to put up a smarter fight, at the very least he did not engage without some protection beforehand and, when things went shout, he tried to escape.

Right, good thing Vaarsuvius totally summoned a Ring of Death Ward so that Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain didn't cost either spliced soul their epic-level slots, didn't lead with an element Xykon was completely immune to, and didn't, in general, act like the fact that s/he had Soul Splices should mean s/he could just overwhelm Xykon like a tenth-level wizard facing a goblin with no class levels. Other than the lack of Death Ward (a similarity, not a difference, between Vaarsuvius and Dorukan), I also wonder why you're so sure Dorukan didn't have protection spells in place. Vaarsuvius brought twice as much power and did worse than Dorukan.

[Blue Lantern]

Right, good thing Vaarsuvius totally summoned a Ring of Death Ward so that Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain didn't cost either spliced soul their epic-level slots, didn't lead with an element Xykon was completely immune to, and didn't, in general, act like the fact that s/he had Soul Splices should mean s/he could just overwhelm Xykon like a tenth-level wizard facing a goblin with no class levels. Other than the lack of Death Ward (a similarity, not a difference, between Vaarsuvius and Dorukan), I also wonder why you're so sure Dorukan didn't have protection spells in place. Vaarsuvius brought twice as much power and did worse than Dorukan.

At least there are story justifications for that, he was forbidden to replicate divine magic so he could not cast death ward himself, and creating a magical item even with wish requires XP wich he may not have availables.
And yes his battle strategy involving overwhelm the enemy with superior firepower was not the smartest one, but at least within this framework his action were not too dumb, he opened with Time Stop that was countered, then used chain lightning which, despite being ineffective against Xykon (and the fact that Varsavious does not know much about liches is consistent) destroyed the wards; after that he used spells like disintegrate and sunburst that are generally effective against undead, and spells like dimensional anchor and Crushing hand to reduce the other mobility, in the end, when his protection got dispelled he tried to escape, in this case you see that Xykon won because he fought better and was better prepared, not just because of plot exigences.
I am not arguing that a Wizard with high intelligence should always use the best possible strategy, but that they should at least avoid action that a 5 year old would find stupid.

By comparison the fight Dorkukan (SoD Spoilers)

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- Had one year time of preparation, even if he spent one spell slot a week for divination he could have known what Xykon parents had for breakfast the day he was concieved.
- Had 30 seconds before actions, that means 1 to 3 rounds of preparation times that he did not seems to have used (depending if you count teleport and attack as a single round or invisibility, teleport and attack as three separate round), cosidering one round used casting flight.
- Used some direct attack spell that had effect, but that's ok.
- Called a bunch of angels with Gate, exluding the metagaming factor that using a single creature is better it was not a bad move, he got some time and forced Xykon to use some of his resources, exept during that time he either did nothing or as Xykon suggest used some buffs that had no noticeable effect.
- Between the kill of the last angel and the first energy drain we see
- Xykon starts using energy drain, Dorkukan does nothing, as I already explained, even after the first energy drain he should still have some spells available and there are some low levels spells that coul have helped him a little, if we had see him at least try to use a spell and failing, the whole thing would have been a lot better.

Also I already made my point about the "he could have had protection but they got dispelled" theory, the fact that he did not try to cast some other or tried to escape seems still pretty stupid to me.

Now I understand that the focus of the scene was with Redcloack and Righteye, and the fight was pretty much a glorified background event, but as I said it did undermine the speech about power Xykon made, if I were to judge him by Start of Darkness alone I would think, yeah he is a really cool villain, but he only won because of plot. Luckly things were fixed later.

[Clistenes]

Goddammit, man. There were so many ways you could have written that sentence so I could retain my lunch. You did that on purpose, didn't you?

Yes

[Winter]

especially since he claimed he was well prepared for the fight and was just waiting the moment Xykon showed the soul gem.

Would you not claim the same? Especially in rage?

Also, the comic pretty solidly is proof what to think about Dorukan's claims there: nothing.

[King of Nowhere]

I see many people just say "Dorukan is too smart to make a mistake", which is totally unreasonable. High intelligence do not make you immune to mistake.
I am a strong chessplayer, last time I checked I was ranked around 200 in italy, and yet I keep making mistakes that an amateur player would immediately spot. And once I won against a great master (ranked about 700th in the world) because he made a blunder and lost a knight in 2 moves. That's a mistake the weakest player in my chess club would have normally seen, and yet it was made by one of the strongest players in the world. And all those bad moves are made during long time games, after several minutes of carful thinking.

So, saying "he was to smart to do something that stupid" is nosense. Please stop arguing for it, very intelligent people making very stupid mistakes is something that happens daily.

[Winter]

Intelligence has nothing to do with doing stupid things. Very smart people occasionally do very dumb things once emotion gets involved. Don't believe me? Ask General Patraeus. Last I heard he now has lots of time now to answer all your question.

Can we please stop assuming that the number of dumb thing people do is declining with a rising IQ. Some of the dumb things someone with an IQ 130 does are different from those someone who just has one of 80 does; others are totally the same. And I would not say the dumb things one or the other person does are "fewer", just different.

Dorukan simply screwed up by acting too rash in that very moment.

[veti]

Very smart people occasionally do very dumb things once emotion gets involved.

And let's not forget Xykon's prime stat. With a CHA presumably in the mid-20s, he can goad like nobody's business. Not surprising people tend to lose their cool when dealing with him.

(Including Roy (twice), Miko, Tsukiko, Eugene - basically, most anyone who's come into personal contact with him has acted stupidly.)

[Blue Lantern]

Would you not claim the same? Especially in rage?

Also, the comic pretty solidly is proof what to think about Dorukan's claims there: nothing.

If I was so angry that my mental faculties are apparently impaired razionalizing hardly would cross my mind.
Also are you claiming he spent an year sitting in his fortress waiting for Xykon showing the soul gem and doing nothing to prepare himself? I would call that pretty solid proof that he is a moron.

I see many people just say "Dorukan is too smart to make a mistake", which is totally unreasonable. High intelligence do not make you immune to mistake.
I am a strong chessplayer, last time I checked I was ranked around 200 in italy, and yet I keep making mistakes that an amateur player would immediately spot. And once I won against a great master (ranked about 700th in the world) because he made a blunder and lost a knight in 2 moves. That's a mistake the weakest player in my chess club would have normally seen, and yet it was made by one of the strongest players in the world. And all those bad moves are made during long time games, after several minutes of carful thinking.

So, saying "he was to smart to do something that stupid" is nosense. Please stop arguing for it, very intelligent people making very stupid mistakes is something that happens daily.

Again, for the third time, I am not arguing smart people should never do any mistake, is the sheer magnitude of the stupid acts committed that I have trouble accepting.
To put your chess example in prospective is like the master lost his Knight, Bishop, Rook and Queen in 5 moves because of stupid blunder, while still believing his strategy was sound in a competition where the punishment for losing would mean having his head cut off...
Yes it does sound ridiculous but this is the benchmark we have here, Dorkukan throw himself in a fight without any protection, without any appreciable strategy, without backing down when things went bad and that got himself killed.
I am sorry but just saying sometimes a mistake is possible does not cut it for me, because it is much more than that.

ps- hello fellow italian.

Intelligence has nothing to do with doing stupid things. Very smart people occasionally do very dumb things once emotion gets involved. Don't believe me? Ask General Patraeus. Last I heard he now has lots of time now to answer all your question.

Can we please stop assuming that the number of dumb thing people do is declining with a rising IQ. Some of the dumb things someone with an IQ 130 does are different from those someone who just has one of 80 does; others are totally the same. And I would not say the dumb things one or the other person does are "fewer", just different.

Dorukan simply screwed up by acting too rash in that very moment.

Forgive me but I have no idea who General Patraeus is, I am not from US, but at the risk of sounding stupid myself unless he:
1) Was considered a genius
2) Got himself killed because of his mistake
I fail to see the paragon, one I would use to keep the military theme (I assume) is if a renowned and highly decorated field commander suddenly decided to make a infantry charge against a fortified artillery position on high ground while outnumbered and didn't even tried to retreat so got everyone killed, just because the enemy commander goaded him, would you consider him smart?

I would really like to see a possible example of someone who would make use of such poor judgement in a life and death situation and still be considered intelligent.

I really hope this time I made my position more clear but to reassume, for me there is a limit of stupid things I can accept from a person before stopping to consider him intelligent.

[Incom]

^Just google his name. Don't want to break real-world politics rules while explaining it to you.

[King of Nowhere]

Again, for the third time, I am not arguing smart people should never do any mistake, is the sheer magnitude of the stupid acts committed that I have trouble accepting.

And what I was trying to argue is just that, that even intelligent people can make mistakes of very sheer magnitude.
But I see my chess example didn't work well, probably because not many people know much about chess.
So let's see if I can explain how big the magnitude of the great master's mistake.
That great master who lost a piece in 2 with several minutes to think was rated 2450. he can expect to perform a score of 90% against a player rated 2100. the player ranked 2100 can expect to perform 90% against a 1750. THAT player could score a 90% against a 1400. And a chessplayer rated 1400 would generally NOT make that mistake, not even when playing in a pub, half drunk, with few seconds to think and people shouting in his ears. It was something of such a sheer magnitude that it could be compared to a formula1 professional racer hitting the wall when parking the car. I don't know if I can convey the meaning more than that.

And let's not forget Xykon's prime stat. With a CHA presumably in the mid-20s, he can goad like nobody's business. Not surprising people tend to lose their cool when dealing with him.

You know, that is a very good explanation of why people tend to act dumb around xykon. Now that I think about it, the behaviour of all those who confronted him makes much more sense.

[Math_Mage]

And what I was trying to argue is just that, that even intelligent people can make mistakes of very sheer magnitude.
But I see my chess example didn't work well, probably because not many people know much about chess.
So let's see if I can explain how big the magnitude of the great master's mistake.
That great master who lost a piece in 2 with several minutes to think was rated 2450. he can expect to perform a score of 90% against a player rated 2100. the player ranked 2100 can expect to perform 90% against a 1750. THAT player could score a 90% against a 1400. And a chessplayer rated 1400 would generally NOT make that mistake, not even when playing in a pub, half drunk, with few seconds to think and people shouting in his ears. It was something of such a sheer magnitude that it could be compared to a formula1 professional racer hitting the wall when parking the car. I don't know if I can convey the meaning more than that.

It's probably easier to just reference the time Kramnik missed mate in 1 against Deep Fritz after playing to a drawn position. Point is, people should stop nitpicking the chess details and acknowledge the basic point that even the most brilliant people make dumb mistakes. (And by "people" I mean just one person.)

That said, it still bothers me that Dorukan has known about the threat at his door for months, apparently considers himself prepared by the standards of an Epic-level wizard, and yet only really demonstrates how completely unprepared he is. *shrug*

[lio45]

You know, that is a very good explanation of why people tend to act dumb around xykon. Now that I think about it, the behaviour of all those who confronted him makes much more sense.

So the conclusion is that your personal CHA is so high it will cause such things as having a chess master lose a knight to you in 2 moves? :P

[Dr.Epic]

Sorcies get all the magic by genetics and not study.
Also, since they are Char based, they get all the girls/guys

Its like a geek (Wizard) and a Jock (sorcerer), and the jock is so lucky he get a better job in nerdy things than the geek

I'd watch a movie that was basically Revenge of the Nerd except with wizards and sorcerers.

[ReaderAt2046]

That said, it still bothers me that Dorukan has known about the threat at his door for months, apparently considers himself prepared by the standards of an Epic-level wizard, and yet only really demonstrates how completely unprepared he is. *shrug*

What exactly could he do to prepare during those months? Buff spells don't last for weeks or even days, so there's no point casting them until necessary. He had already raised his dungeon defenses as high as he could get them to go, so nothing much to do there. And I'm not sure he could have scored magic items even if he'd thought of that, since he's essentially under seige and might not have the correct crafting feats.

[MReav]

I'd watch a movie that was basically Revenge of the Nerd except with wizards and sorcerers.

Wait, who would be the nerds and who would be the jocks?

[Koo Rehtorb]

So the conclusion is that your personal CHA is so high it will cause such things as having a chess master lose a knight to you in 2 moves? :P

If you were a chess grandmaster playing chess with a famous celebrity you might not be able to concentrate on the game as well as you normally would.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes it does sound ridiculous but this is the benchmark we have here, Dorkukan throw himself in a fight without any protection, without any appreciable strategy, without backing down when things went bad and that got himself killed.

Just so we're clear, just where could Dorukan have retreated? He couldn't have gone back into his dungeon. The Cloister he had raised prevented him from entering by any means other than passing the barrier physically, and Xykon could simply have followed him (or blasted him out of the sky) if he tried. He couldn't have teleported anywhere else, since then Xykon would have been able to seize the dungeon and the Gate for himself and the point of Dorukan being there at all was to ensure that that would never happen. True, the Cloister would have gone down in a month or so without Dorukan being around to cast it, but ceding the Gate to the enemy for a month so they can work on opening it with impunity is even less intelligent than trying to defend it. The way Dorukan chose to fight, retreat was not an option.

That said, this argument merely pushes Dorukan's foolishness back a step. He couldn't retreat once he'd put himself in the position he did, but he chose to put himself into a position from which he couldn't retreat in the first place.

Forgive me but I have no idea who General Patraeus is, I am not from US, but at the risk of sounding stupid myself unless he:
1) Was considered a genius
2) Got himself killed because of his mistake
I fail to see the paragon, one I would use to keep the military theme (I assume) is if a renowned and highly decorated field commander suddenly decided to make a infantry charge against a fortified artillery position on high ground while outnumbered and didn't even tried to retreat so got everyone killed, just because the enemy commander goaded him, would you consider him smart?

The scenario you're describing is a pretty much 1:1 description of the Battle of Gettysburg, and there exist whole schools of historians dedicated to debating whether the conduct and result of that battle really has any bearing on whether Lee should be considered a military genius or not. The debate's been going for over two hundred years.

[Dr.Epic]

Wait, who would be the nerds and who would be the jocks?

I'd think it be pretty obvious the wizards are the nerds, and the sorcerers are the jocks.

[MReav]

I'd think it be pretty obvious the wizards are the nerds, and the sorcerers are the jocks.

But it's the sorcerers who are the underdogs in this sort of thing. Since the nerds are the underdogs, doesn't that make them the sorcerers?

[Blue Lantern]

And what I was trying to argue is just that, that even intelligent people can make mistakes of very sheer magnitude.
But I see my chess example didn't work well, probably because not many people know much about chess.
So let's see if I can explain how big the magnitude of the great master's mistake.
That great master who lost a piece in 2 with several minutes to think was rated 2450. he can expect to perform a score of 90% against a player rated 2100. the player ranked 2100 can expect to perform 90% against a 1750. THAT player could score a 90% against a 1400. And a chessplayer rated 1400 would generally NOT make that mistake, not even when playing in a pub, half drunk, with few seconds to think and people shouting in his ears. It was something of such a sheer magnitude that it could be compared to a formula1 professional racer hitting the wall when parking the car. I don't know if I can convey the meaning more than that.

Nope, once again I could non make my point clear, let's try again.

To reuse your chess example, after that 10 megaton blunder, what did that masted do?
1) He realized his mistake and tried to recover from it, albeit uselessly.
2) he kept going with a foolish strategy without even bothering to correct his play, maybe not even noticing it was a bad one?
If the answer is 1, I say ok, it's a mistake, it can happen, if the answer is two then I will probably start having some doubt how he got ranked so high in the first place.

Now what Dorkukan did that bothers me is not one single mistake, but a series of really stupid mistakes even when he saw his action where not working in a situation when his very life was at stake.
To put it more clearly (hopefully) SoD spoilers

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1) He got goaded into a fight in an unfavorable position because of an emoctional reaction - Stupid mistake but acceptable.
2) He threw himself in the fight without any protection despite having the time to get some - hard to swallow but ok.
3) He spent an year being besieged and apparently not doing much to prepare himself if not putting up some defences in the dungeon - at this point my theet starts to cringe.
4) Fighting without any appreciable strategy, without any protactions nor contingecies (and I don't mean the spell) and with, frankly, not particularly good tactics - my head shakes, we are pushing the boundaries of credibility.
5) When the fight started going extremely badly for him he stood still, did nothing, and got killed - At this point we are past any justification.

What exactly could he do to prepare during those months? Buff spells don't last for weeks or even days, so there's no point casting them until necessary. He had already raised his dungeon defenses as high as he could get them to go, so nothing much to do there. And I'm not sure he could have scored magic items even if he'd thought of that, since he's essentially under seige and might not have the correct crafting feats.

Where do I even start, he could have used divination to learn everything about Xykon, his spells, his defences, his items and tailored his prepared spells and equipment to become basically immune to everything Xykon had.
Even if he had no crafting feats he could have sent a called creature or a sumulacrum, or one of his employees to go shopping.
He could have called a bunch of outsider and/or created a bunch of simulacra to help him.
Depending on how much xp had to spare he could even have spent the time to create an epic spell specific for the fight.

Just so we're clear, just where could Dorukan have retreated? He couldn't have gone back into his dungeon. The Cloister he had raised prevented him from entering by any means other than passing the barrier physically, and Xykon could simply have followed him (or blasted him out of the sky) if he tried. He couldn't have teleported anywhere else, since then Xykon would have been able to seize the dungeon and the Gate for himself and the point of Dorukan being there at all was to ensure that that would never happen. True, the Cloister would have gone down in a month or so without Dorukan being around to cast it, but ceding the Gate to the enemy for a month so they can work on opening it with impunity is even less intelligent than trying to defend it. The way Dorukan chose to fight, retreat was not an option.

That said, this argument merely pushes Dorukan's foolishness back a step. He couldn't retreat once he'd put himself in the position he did, but he chose to put himself into a position from which he couldn't retreat in the first place.

He could not have teleported back inside his dungeon, ok, but he could have teleported on the other side, and gotten inside before Xykon reached him, he could have tried escaping becoming invisibile, he could have tried to lure Xykon in a place where he had some defences in the hope of stopping him, he could have tried some low level defensive spell like mirror image or displacement to get some miss chance, hell he coul have tried attacking back. I am not claiming that any of those action would have made a difference in the end, but at that point anything is better than doing nothing and getting mauled to death.

The scenario you're describing is a pretty much 1:1 description of the Battle of Gettysburg, and there exist whole schools of historians dedicated to debating whether the conduct and result of that battle really has any bearing on whether Lee should be considered a military genius or not. The debate's been going for over two hundred years.

I didn't really knew that, I'm guessing that also proves people can argue about everything, now I am not an history expert (america history even less) but at least Lee retreated when is assault failed.

At this point it is I who ask you (in general), what do you consider the difference between an average person and a very smart one, and in a life and death situation, even considering pressure and emotional baggage, what do you believe are the things that the two would do differently, if the answer to that is none, then I believe there is no point in dragging this discussion further, because I think intelligence mean something more than being able to learn to perform integral calculus in your sleep.