[PF] Alchemist getting x6 INT to damage?

[RndmNumGen]

I overheard someone talking about how they could get x6 their INT bonus to damage the other day. I can sort of follow the path of how this is done. Alchemists already add their INT to damage. Drink the Targeted Bomb Admixture, and you give up splash double your INT damage bonus, so x2. If you get the Kirin Style and Kirin Strike feats you can add your INT again - effectively x3.

I must be missing something else though. Is there some other way to double INT damage for alchemist? It seems like this is the only logical choice, since adding your INT 3 more times verges on the inane.

[Larpus]

Unless I'm reading wrong, but Kirin Strike adds twice your Int bonus, so it's already x4 right there.

Then there's Sticky Bomb, which causes the direct hit to take the splash damage 1 round later...can be argued that it doesn't work with TBA, but as they're separate effects that require waste of resources (it is a discovery/feat after all), I'd say that it works...so given an extra turn we're at x8.

Or, in case it does not work...drop TBA and we have x6 to damage...on 2 turns though.

[tyckspoon]

They might also just be combining abilities incorrectly. I won't say 6 times is impossible- I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder stuff- but that sounds like one of the things that happens when you treat something with real math instead of D&D combination (ie, you are adding Int 3 times and you get something that doubles it = 6x Int! instead of the D&D Multiplication of double = add 100%, so you get 4x.)

[Ravenica]

technically raw im not sure kirin strike works...
throwing a bomb uses the the throw splash weapons special attack rather than an actual "ranged attack". I wouldn't nitpick it in my games personally considering how expensive that feat tax is with prereqs though

sticky bomb and targetted admixture definately don't work together though sadly as the wording on the spell specifically prohibits the splash and the discovery identifies the secondary damage as splash.

If your dm is willing to overlook and/or handwave bombs as ranged attacks you could stack in deadly aim for an extra plus 2 damage though

raw I see only the x4 int on damage, targetted admixture modifies the original x1 to a x2 and the strike adds twice your intelligence modifier to damage regardless of base and other modifiers.

[QuidEst]

Ranged touch attacks are generally distinct from ranged attacks. In addition, you can't apply precision damage on thrown splash weapons. Kirin Strike is not called out as precision damage specifically, but either way, it's basically asking your DM to houserule it as okay. (At twelve skill ranks, one spell, three feats, and level 9 minimum, it's certainly a hefty investment.)

[RndmNumGen]

I'm not really fond of Kirin Strike, mainly because it takes a heavy investment and 3 swift actions to activate. However, I'm just trying to see how the math plays out here.

One question I think we need to consider with Kirin Strike though, is what happens if, say... a Gunslinger shoots a target after activating KS? Obviously it works with a crossbow, and aside from targeting Touch AC guns aren't all that different.

What about if an Alchemist shoots a target with a crossbow with Explosive Missile on it? He's now targeting normal AC. does Kirin Strike apply then?

[Blyte]

with a bow/xbow shot bomb you can also use the feat "focused shot" which adds your INT to damage as well

[Swok]

Are you sure that they mean in one attack?

Targeted Bomb Admixture + Rapid Shot + Haste + Fast bombs. That's easily enough to get to X6 Intelligence modifier.

Though part of that comes down to what "This effect on your magical reserve has no effect on any discoveries that you use to modify your bombs, but you can only have one admixture effect (formula with the word “bomb admixture” in its title) active at a time." means between "discoveries and admixtures are mutually exclusive" and "discoveries and admixtures don't interfere with each other."

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, is there anything stopping Vital Strike from working with bombs?

It has no particular synergy w/ the int stacking, but kirin strike is a swift to use on an attack, so this build is looking like a "one big hit" type deal, rather than a volley type setup.

[tyckspoon]

So, is there anything stopping Vital Strike from working with bombs?

Vital Strike specifies 'the attack action', not just 'an attack'. Since 'Throw Splash Weapon' is not 'The Attack Action', you can't Vital Strike with a bomb. (Same reason you can't Vital Strike a Charge.)

[StreamOfTheSky]

That's a pretty lame reason...

At least with charge, it's a special attack action and a full round action, at that.

Everything about splash weapon rules in PF seems like it's bs and boils down to JB's knee-jerk reaction to 3E "flask rogues".

[Corlindale]

Actually, Vital Strike does work with bombs, but it's not nearly as good as you might think, because:
"The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).".

Which means that Vital Strike will only add 1d6 damage to a bomb (greater will add 3d6) - not nearly as good as simply relying on multiple bombs per turn, and in most cases not worth the feat investment.

[Acanous]

Vital Strike is almost NEVER worth the feat investment.
It's one of those nifty-looking trap feats.
For the record, you're actually better off with Weapon Specialization, and that's saying something.

[RndmNumGen]

with a bow/xbow shot bomb you can also use the feat "focused shot" which adds your INT to damage as well

Hmm... interesting. Would that work with a Launching Crossbow as well?

[Blyte]

I don't know, I guess it would.

...

why would you not be able to use vital strike in conjunction with charge?

"... Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. ..."

that sounds like "the attack action" to me.

they just specifically called out that it had to be the melee variant of "the attack action". since "the attack action" has 3 different variations. (attack melee, attack ranged, and attack unarmed)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Actually, Vital Strike does work with bombs, but it's not nearly as good as you might think, because:
"The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).".

Which means that Vital Strike will only add 1d6 damage to a bomb (greater will add 3d6) - not nearly as good as simply relying on multiple bombs per turn, and in most cases not worth the feat investment.

Ick. Ok, I was willing to entertain the notion that a dps-build bomber alchemist had the potential to not be complete and utter fail with this set up. But now I see they just plain are.

Even IF vital strike worked as intended, and even IF you pimped out Int like no tomorrow, the damage output still isn't really high enough to justify a "one big hit" build. I calc'd it out starting w/ Int 19-20 and all level up points into it, +6 item by level 12, cognatogen for +6 and vital strike (under the assumption full bomb damage would be multipled) with targeted bomb admixture and kirin strike, and it was still only 12d6+48, ie 90 average damage. For one attack per round. After all that. *yawn*

And of course the volley approach is complete fail because you'll become worthless faster than even a blaster mage and still not do noticeably more damage than him. So... man, am I glad Vivisectionist and cloud effect bombs (and maybe confusion and dispelling, the point is...non-damage applications) exist to keep alchemist from being worthless...

[NamelessNPC]

I was going to reply that the alchemist is a great controller, because you can choose on the fly which save to attack, but then I remembered that all I ever used with mine was the nauseating cloud, so yeah, maybe that's the only redeeming class feature

[StreamOfTheSky]

Stink Bomb at level 3 seems to be the main selling point, yeah.

Just out of curiousity, I tried making a "3rd rate wizard" build focused on debuffs and battlefield control.

Spoiler

Show

Goblin Beastmorph Mindchemist Alchemist
Str 9, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 5 (starting; 25 point buy)
Str 7, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 21, Wis 10, Cha 5 (w/ cognatogen)
All level-up points to Int

Discoveries:
2 Smoke Bomb
4 Precise Bombs
6 Rocket Bomb
8 Confusion Bomb
10 Tumor Familiar

Feats:
1 Splash Weapon Mastery
3 Extra Discovery (Stink Bomb)
5 Extra Discovery (Strafe Bomb)
7 Extra Discovery (Dispelling Bomb)
9 Extra Discovery (Breath Weapon Bomb)
11 Improved Familiar

Basically is goblin solely for rocket bomb, to bump radius by x2 and range by x2.5. Only firing one per round is fine. Without rocket bomb, you'd want a +int race.

Main tactics are stink bomb + dispelling bomb; confusion bomb; breath weapon bomb + dispelling bomb; and rocket + stink bomb. Applying Strafe bomb to any but the breath weapon combo as needed (I'm assuming you can't combine those even though RAW there's no apparent reason you can't) for clearing out narrow passages.

[Psyren]

The big advantage to bombs is that they're supernatural. So you get to nuke outsiders, golems etc. With fast bombs, TWF, haste etc. you can pile up the damage quickly (though you nova through your bombs by doing so.)

I don't know if orbs made it to PF, but Alchemist was never meant to really stand toe-to-toe with Sorcs and Wizards anyway. It's just a fun alternative that can shine on its own merits.

[Sayt]

I don't know, I guess it would.

...

why would you not be able to use vital strike in conjunction with charge?

"... Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. ..."

that sounds like "the attack action" to me.

they just specifically called out that it had to be the melee variant of "the attack action". since "the attack action" has 3 different variations. (attack melee, attack ranged, and attack unarmed)

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. , whereas Vital strike is another type of special attack action.

[Rhatahema]

Given that they're mutually exclusive, it's odd that the Bombs class feature even calls out Vital Strike. But the reason bombs can't be used with Vital Strike is because throwing a Bomb is a standard action supernatural ability, not because Throw Splash Weapon is a standard action (it isn't specified as taking any sort of action, implying it's simply a subsystem of attacking). Not a very relevant nitpick concerning Bombs, but you could still Vital Strike with a flask of acid (not that you'd want to).

One way I've seen people tack on intelligence damage is through the Grenadier archetype. At second level, they get alchemical weapon, which they can use to infuse a weapon with a single harmful alchemical substance as a move action, which takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon. Though I think adding intelligence to damage for that substance would be a mistake, given that the bonus only applies when using throw splash weapon. Anyway, it's also questionable whether or not you could, at any point, apply that ability to a bomb.

[Blyte]

or perhaps it calls out vital strike under bombs because they are not exclusive?

I still think people are reading a little to far into "the attack action"... I think it is spelled out as such to differentiate it from "the full attack action" so people aren't trying to double all of a series of a attacks damage dice.

you can use vital strike with bombs, but it only doubles the base damage, not the additional damage, just like it doesn't double the "flaming" property on a weapon.

I will continue to use vital strike in conjunction with charges because I believe there is an attack action as a component of charge. they just don't call it "the attack action" because they wanted to specifically note that it must be a melee attack, so people aren't drawing from the broad category of "the attack action" and charging with a missile weapon.

[Urpriest]

or perhaps it calls out vital strike under bombs because they are not exclusive?

I still think people are reading a little to far into "the attack action"... I think it is spelled out as such to differentiate it from "the full attack action" so people aren't trying to double all of a series of a attacks damage dice.

you can use vital strike with bombs, but it only doubles the base damage, not the additional damage, just like it doesn't double the "flaming" property on a weapon.

I will continue to use vital strike in conjunction with charges because I believe there is an attack action as a component of charge. they just don't call it "the attack action" because they wanted to specifically note that it must be a melee attack, so people aren't drawing from the broad category of "the attack action" and charging with a missile weapon.

I'm not familiar enough with PF to comment on this, but is the text of full attack sufficiently different from the text of charge to make that distinction? Wouldn't full attack also use the wording "you may make x number of melee attacks"?

[Starbuck_II]

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. , whereas Vital strike is another type of special attack action.

Yeah, you have to be slowed to use Vital Strike on a Charge (no longer a full rd action)