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2012-09-16, 06:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Unlimited power with SRD only materials
[This assumes a cooperative DM]
If you can planar binding an efreeti
5th level wizard (magic circle vs. evil)
Gray Elf for 20 int +4 int spell
Prescience alt class feature
7+5+1=13 vs 12 needed for the scroll
Dimensional lock spell scroll for 16 (need a 4 or better)
Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus on Planar Binding school
DC 10+6+9=25 vs +9 save (needs a 16 or better to save)
Assuming a small bit of luck in a few places you can get an efreeti to grant you 3 wishes. You actually only need 1. So offer him 50000 gp from 2 of his own wishes and you get a candle of invocation from 1.
Gate in a solar and have him grant you a wish (this will be under more favorable circumstances as you don't need to negotiate).
Wish for a use activated item of wish. Now here are the important parts:
-Sp abilities do not have an XP component ever unless otherwise mentioned.
-Wish says "Create a magic item" but never mentions needing to meet prerequisites (though XP could be a problem in many cases)
Therefore you can create that use activated item of wish with an unlimited caster level (despite not meeting the prerequisites) and an unlimited supply of XP.
Following from this is the second part "add to the powers of an existing magic item". This part is so wonderfully broad and far reaching. You may then proceed to "add" every spell in existence or any ability you can think of. You need only add to it's powers. Epic spells would normally be beyond the reach of an item such as this. However, you can say that the item is treated as an artifact for that purpose. Follow up with adding an unlimited bonus to spellcraft if you need it and an epic spell that says you gain all the powers of an item you merge with permanently and irrevocably. Add the power to your magic item to grant an ability to a target of your choice. Merge with the item. You have now achieved pun-pun power at will without needing to go outside the SRD.
EDIT: It may even be possible to just "add" the power to add an ability to a target of your choice to the item and skip the last part altogether. This eliminates the need for epic spells and artifacts as you can add an ability to yourself that allows you to add abilities and start from there. You could opt to not use the prescience ability but this raises the level requirement or amount of luck required considerably. So it is actually entirely possible to do this with materials out of only the core 3 books but it requires a higher level.
EDIT2: Actually you could go even further back in this chain and create a single use, use-activated item that instantaneously/permanently grants an ability to it's user. It says "create a magic item" not create an existing magic item. The caster level is unimportant and the only limiting factor would be XP cost (which isn't a limiting factor). The ability you add is to add abilities at will to a target creature (yourself included).Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 06:16 AM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-16, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
.............. and?
You've combined, what looks like, three well known exploits, and a wish that screams, "Hey DM, screw me over as hard as you can."
I don't see the point.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2012-09-16, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Except, rules as written, he can't twist the wish.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
I was referring to the final wish to be fused with the item.
Edit: possible twist: as the magic takes hold you feel your mind becoming one with the power of the item, but at the back of your mind you feel something fade away. Mechanically, your body disappears from reality, along with your spellcasting ability and all of your gear except the item you fused with. You are now an intelligent magic item.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-09-16 at 06:43 AM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
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2012-09-16, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
You don't need to even do that as I mentioned in the final part. You just create an item that "gives you an ability of your choice". The ability is "At will you may grant target creature an ability as a standard action." Aka the start of pun-pun.
So, the DM will have to step outside RAW to stop this process at that point (the ideal part would just be to have the efreeti say no but that would be unusual given the payoff ratings they usually expect).Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 06:47 AM.
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2012-09-16, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
I'm convinced that folks who freely advocate binding efreeti for this or that purpose have yet to actually read their MM1 entry.
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Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2012-09-16, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Successfully binding an Efreet played to his full power requires more than just the listed stuff. It would be easier just to buy a candle of invocation from your WBL, which is sufficient for that at 5th level.
@Your Wish
Doesn't work, since the XP cost for adding that ability is not defined. While the Solar doesn't have to pay it, it is a cost and must be a discrete number:
Originally Posted by PHB
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2012-09-16, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Through 1 method or another it will work. Either through granting epic spellcasting power by which ad hoc adjustments allow anything and thus my combo works (thus an existing effect) or more broadly by the fact that the words "Create a magic item" do not specify an existing magic item and there is such a thing as the custom magic item creation rules which therefore mean that items and effects not listed may be created. Furthermore, the only requirement a DM could request is an unlimited amount of XP to create the item you request but you may safely ignore all other prerequisites by the wording. You have an unlimited amount of XP to work with as it doesn't require any for the Sp ability. This means that because the only limiting factor is not a limiting factor there are no limiting factors on what you can create by RAW.
Originally Posted by SRD
No XP cost, no limit magic item creation rules, and the only limiting factor that the DM can request is XP mean no limits on what you can do RAW.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 12:00 PM.
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2012-09-16, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Custom Item Creation relies on DM Fiat. Epic Spells likewise rely on DM Fiat. The point of most TO exercises is to get builds that reach some specific goal with as little DM Fiat as possible.
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2012-09-16, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
DM fiat for magic items comes in the fact that creating an item could require resources and requirements you don't have. Wish allows the broad creation of magic items without specifying it to be an existing one. Since it doesn't specify that it has to be an existing magic item it requires you to use the custom magic item creation rules. The RAW constraint on the DM however is that he can only require an infinitely high XP cost which you don't have to worry about. If the DM is acting RAW he cannot deny your wish because he cannot exercise control over it through an XP cost. Again, the fiat can only be in the XP cost and thus is not a problem at all.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Aren't scrolls cast as the creator?
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2012-09-16, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-16, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Ok, guidelines.
There are several requirements that the guidelines present and possibly an infinite number they don't. You ignore all of them through wish except XP. Which you ignore through the fact that wish was used as an Sp ability.
Unsure what you mean here. If you're referring to binding and the save allowed as well as the other stuff there are two ways to handle that beneficially: 1 is that the creator of the scroll had an ability score such that the modifier was hillariously high (without increasing the cost by the way) and the other is that your ability modifier is the one that counts.
I'm leaning towards just using a candle of invocation with a few levels higher of Wealth By Level at this point.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 01:14 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
I must have missed the section of the guidelines that state how to create items with new effects. Would you mind citing that section?
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2012-09-16, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Adding New Abilities
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.
So we can either interpret new abilities to mean ones that haven't been mentioned or we can go with the fact that wish does not specify that the item has to be an existing one and carry that over to the magic item creation guidelines.
Wish grants the flexibility and it carries over.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 01:24 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
I think the green text needs to be read in the context of the paragraph. It goes on and specifies what is meant by adding new magical abilities - defined magical abilities the magic item didn't have before, in the example making a +1 vorpal sword into a +2 vorpal sword. This doesn't refer to adding completely new effects at all.
The only way to ad hoc your wish would be to create a custom item with a newly created spell that does what you want to achieve, and the DM can disallow new spells he finds to powerful (DMG p. 35 et seq., ELH p. 88 et seq.). And this is assuming a very lenient DM, a less lenient DM would probably rule that to achieve your wish, it would have to create a new spell as part of its effect, which is not within the power of the Wish spell, so it falls under the greater effects clause.
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2012-09-16, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
You are ignoring all spell requirements as part of the ignoring of prerequisites to create a magic item except XP.
Helm of Brilliance
It emanates a bluish light when undead are within 30 feet. This light causes 1d6 points of damage per round to all such creatures within that range.
What spell in this list...:
Strong varied; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, detect undead, fireball, flame blade, light, prismatic spray, protection from energy, wall of fire; Price 125,000 gp; Weight 3 lb.
Does exactly that?
None of them.
By extension, no, the effect does not need to be existing. You can create entirely new ones without a new spell.
In fact:
Silversheen
This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 250 gp.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 01:35 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
So...if your DM says that any homebrew you create is automatically legal, you can legally homebrew an infinite-power magic item? Seems like a tautological loop.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
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2012-09-16, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Yes. Because he gave you permission (that's what wish is doing - giving you permission).
I will link this up for you though:
Wish - Create a magic item.
XP costs - None because Sp.
Limiting factors - Only XP and ignore ALL other requirements.
Result - No limits (of any kind whatsoever other than fiat outside of RAW) item creation.
EDIT: Your reference of tautology seems like RAI to me. This is a discussion of RAW (RAW is automatically correct until fiat comes in from RAI).Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 01:42 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Tautology is not a rules term, RAW or RAI, it is a dictionary term. You are using fiat to justify fiat, saying something is RAW because you say it is RAW. That is not RAW.
Strictly, your 'exploit' cannot be RAW under any definition because it relies on using imported homebrew that the theoretical 'anything goes' DM in this example makes legal the instant it's created, but homebrew by definition is not RAW. Using 'RAW' or 'fiat' in a discussion requires that you understand what the terms mean, rather than using them as a panacea to deflect counter-arguments.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-09-16, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
No, I'm using the same thing Pun-Pun does: Broad interpretation of a rule that does not have many limits. Simply, because wish allows access to item creation without prerequisites and GP costs and because item creation is normally limited by those things I can say that it can create whatever I want. I've effectively eliminated all the barriers on item creation that would prevent creation of an item that can do anything through the application of a few rules (Wish item creation, non-xp cost, and custom magic item existence).
Fiat would be if I said that something works without providing a rules example. RAW means that I have provided a rules example.
You might as well say that pun pun creating an ability with the "you gain an ability" wording is imported homebrew. In fact, through my explanation of wish, you could indeed use imported homebrew and remain within the rules as that is what this wish will effectively allow you to do.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 03:09 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Then can you supply a rules example for your central hypothesis, that Wish allows you to ignore all prerequisites of item creation? By the actual RAW, Wish does not need to say 'you must meet all prerequisites', because 'Create A Magic Item' would refer you to the actual rules on Creating Magic Items, which discuss meeting prerequisites in detail.
You might as well say that pun pun creating an ability with the "you gain an ability" wording is imported homebrew.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-16 at 03:12 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-09-16, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
XP Cost...
...When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
The other possibility is that wish cannot create items on it's own and relies on the caster's feats. The PHB example shows that a person could wish for a staff of the magi but as that is beyond the scope of the wish without XP expenditure it is altered. So creating an item without prerequisites is a given possibility.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 03:16 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2012-09-16, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Under the XP Costs section of the spell...as part of an 'if-then' exception to the flat cost of 5,000 XP. 'If it doesn't specifically say otherwise, I can do it' is not RAW - RAW is 'if if doesn't say you can do it, you can't, but if it does, go wild'.
Quoth the PHB:
For example, wishing for a
staff of the magi might get you instantly
transported to the presence of the staff’s
current owner.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-16 at 03:18 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
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2012-09-16, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
No, actually, what you refer to is called practical optimization. A common mistake when looking at theoretical optimization.
The rule says I can create a magic item and then fails to limit me in a meaningful way.
I am not saying I am just doing 10 jumping jacks to cast a wish spell because the rules don't say I can't.
I am saying that I am using a poorly defined rule that allows theoretically anything and building from there.
So, you miss an important point with your statement: I have grounding in existing rules to do this rather than making them up on the spot.
Quoth the PHB:
Indeed...creating items without prerequisites is not a possibility by your own example, but moving you to an existing item of that description (or moving that item to you) is.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 03:25 PM.
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2012-09-16, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
You are using a poorly defined rule and adding additional text that is not present in the actual RAW to justify your further actions. If you cannot present that text in the RAW, you cannot claim its presence by omission and then say it is RAW.
EDIT: You're also using erroneous definitions of practical/theoretical optimization. Practical optimization is defined as optimizing something that you would actually be able to play in a game, the 'gentleman's optimization'. Theoretical optimization is optimizing in a vacuum - no DM, no players, no campaign, just 'how much of X can I get'. In neither case does it allow you to make up things from whole cloth, even as Pun-Pun.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-16 at 03:27 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-09-16, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
I'm not adding additional text, I'm acting within the boundaries of the rule. Namely the non-existent ones.
It's RAW in that the rule is there and it does allow me to do that.
If it worked the way you say then pun-pun would have to add abilities that exist rather than making them up. Which has been proven to not be the case.
EDIT: You're also using erroneous definitions of practical/theoretical optimization. Practical optimization is defined as optimizing something that you would actually be able to play in a game, the 'gentleman's optimization'. Theoretical optimization is optimizing in a vacuum - no DM, no players, no campaign, just 'how much of X can I get'. In neither case does it allow you to make up things from whole cloth, even as Pun-Pun.
A cooperative DM? It's roughly the same as optimizing in a vacuum. Of course a DM with a brain is going to smite you with the DMG. That's not the point. The point is that the rules allow it. It doesn't have to make sense as long as it works by an existing rule.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 03:30 PM.
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2012-09-16, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
Repeat - show that the rule 'Wish ignores item creation prerequisites' is in there. The XP Costs section gives an exception to the XP Costs of creating an item - specifically, that it costs the normal amount plus 5,000. Non-XP-related prerequisites would not belong in a section titled 'XP Costs', so claiming their absence is justification for not needing them is false.
If it worked the way you say then pun-pun would have to add abilities that exist rather than making them up. Which has been proven to not be the case.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-16 at 03:31 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-09-16, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unlimited power with SRD only materials
So you don't believe he can have any ability in the game. That's interesting.
I did. It says "create a magic item". It does not say create a magic item for which you meet the prerequisites.
Bonus Feats
At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
I must be careful not to split hairs too much more finely or it may result in a fission reaction.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-09-16 at 03:39 PM.
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