Unlimited power with SRD only materials

[animewatcha]

Aside from Raw-legal, very lenient DM can still say no.

Mr. Gooddragon, Step by step to 'create or improve' magic item. Go by it and show us in action what you mean. Let us pretends to be 'DMs' and pick at it. Heck, a DM can break the gate-solar method by simply giving the wizard exactly what he wants.

Some folks like me have been known to have 'trapped creativity' at times.

[gooddragon1]

Aside from Raw-legal, very lenient DM can still say no.

Mr. Gooddragon, Step by step to 'create or improve' magic item. Go by it and show us in action what you mean. Let us pretends to be 'DMs' and pick at it. Heck, a DM can break the gate-solar method by simply giving the wizard exactly what he wants.

Okay. I've gotten access to a wish spell like ability from a monster and the DM has no power to disagree with anything except by the rules written.

I wish for an item that grants me an ability of my choice.

The DM says: Okay, but I get to set the XP cost for this wish. It is infinite.

I say: That's fine, I ignore the XP cost too as a result of the wording of a spell like ability.

This is where you stand. Where in the rules will it stop me from doing that?

[The Glyphstone]

So you don't believe he can have any ability in the game. That's interesting.

I did. It says "create a magic item". It does not say create a magic item for which you meet the prerequisites.



The counter example is



However, if it doesn't mention prerequisites at all we fall into a third category which is loosely defined. The DM will then need grounding in the rules to say that you can't do something that the rules are allowing because you have a rule saying that you can without a piece of text limiting it. You have provided the proof that it can be done and now it is up to the DM to provide the proof that it is limited somehow (which does not exist by the way).

Creating Magic Items

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

If you want to believe you are a optimization savant that has somehow stumbled across an exploit that no optimizer from the old WotC Boards, Gleemax, or Brilliant Gameologists ever even realized existed in 10 or 13 years of attempting to break 3.5 in every possible direction just for the fun of it, rather than just being wrong, then there's not going to be any way to dissuade you of your conviction, but that does spell the end of rational discussion. You have won, good sir, and proven all of us wrong, congratulations.

[gooddragon1]

If you want to believe you are a optimization savant that has somehow stumbled across an exploit that no optimizer from the old WotC Boards, Gleemax, or Brilliant Gameologists ever even realized existed in 10 or 13 years of attempting to break 3.5 in every possible direction just for the fun of it, rather than just being wrong, then there's not going to be any way to dissuade you of your conviction, but that does spell the end of rational discussion. You have won, good sir, and proven all of us wrong, congratulations.

Quote a rule and prove me wrong. Otherwise you have no standing.

EDIT: I'm going to go buy some candy.

[animewatcha]

Okay. I've gotten access to a wish spell like ability from a monster and the DM has no power to disagree with anything except by the rules written.

I wish for an item that grants me an ability of my choice.

The DM says: Okay, but I get to set the XP cost for this wish. It is infinite.

I say: That's fine, I ignore the XP cost too as a result of the wording of a spell like ability.

This is where you stand. Where in the rules will it stop me from doing that?

Give the monster. Exactly what the monster is.

[God Imperror]

Broad interpretation of a rule that does not have many limits. Simply, because wish allows access to item creation without prerequisites and GP costs and because item creation is normally limited by those things I can say that it can create whatever I want.

I am truly sorry, you are under my honest opinion wishfully mistaken.

If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

As you clearly know, there is nothing specific in wish.

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Wish specifies that you must pay twice the normal XP cost.

Wish doesn't specify that you can create a custom magic item, thus you must refer to the magic item creation guidelines. That fall entirely on the hands of the DM or rely on existing magic items and create those.

The PHB example shows that a person could wish for a staff of the magi but as that is beyond the scope of the wish without XP expenditure it is altered.

The PHB also shows a Good Cleric casting symbol of pain an evil spell (pg. 291) so what do you try to prove with that example? That the PHB has bad examples?

The rule says I can create a magic item and then fails to limit me in a meaningful way.

So what? If it doesn't limit you in any meaningful way you resort to the rules on the DMG.

It doesn't specify that you can create any magic item you want. If you are using a magic item that doesn't exist, even if following the magic item creation guidelines you are relying on DM's fiat (since the magic item that you try to create doesn't exist).

[LordHenry]

I don't have my copy of the Phb handy.. but isn't there the sentence:"Even a wish has it's limits" ? This pretty much makes "infinite" impossible with a single wish.

[animewatcha]

Now. Now. guys. I am asking for the specific monster for his 'example' so I can get alignment and sterf. By the way, other than gooddragon. Who knows a good amount of info about gods. Especially, crafting gods or ones that deal with this sort of thing. Something I need to ask in a PM.

[Aharon]

@animewatcha
That part works. Solar, LG, MM p.12
Ask away, I'll try to answer.

[gooddragon1]

Give the monster. Exactly what the monster is.

Solar

Spell-Like Abilities

At will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 19), remove curse (DC 20), remove disease (DC 20), remove fear (DC 18), resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue; 3/day—blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), heal (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion; 1/day—greater restoration (DC 24), power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

===

I am truly sorry, you are under my honest opinion wishfully mistaken.



As you clearly know, there is nothing specific in wish.



Wish specifies that you must pay twice the normal XP cost.

Wish doesn't specify that you can create a custom magic item, thus you must refer to the magic item creation guidelines. That fall entirely on the hands of the DM or rely on existing magic items and create those.



The PHB also shows a Good Cleric casting symbol of pain an evil spell (pg. 291) so what do you try to prove with that example? That the PHB has bad examples?



So what? If it doesn't limit you in any meaningful way you resort to the rules on the DMG.

It doesn't specify that you can create any magic item you want. If you are using a magic item that doesn't exist, even if following the magic item creation guidelines you are relying on DM's fiat (since the magic item that you try to create doesn't exist).

Well, I can handle opinion, that's just RAI.

No specific rule applies. Prerequisites for creating an item would only apply if it mentioned them. The item creation feats mention those rules with clarification. Get me a wish clarification if you can find one.

It says create a magic item. It does not say create an existing magic item. If it doesn't restrict you and it doesn't clarify somewhere else then there's no problem.

It proves a precedent. DM's can houserule it away or use common sense against it but a precedent is a specific example. It depends on how you use it though.

What rule in the DMG applies? I've shown that the "limitations" of the DMG magic item creation don't apply whereas the existence of them allows for the possibility of their creation.

===

I don't have my copy of the Phb handy.. but isn't there the sentence:"Even a wish has it's limits" ? This pretty much makes "infinite" impossible with a single wish.

It certainly does say that. What I am doing however is not one of them.

==

"Wouldn't the Gods..."

Not in a vacuum as they are DM fiat.

[God Imperror]

Get me a wish clarification if you can find one.

No, I don't have to prove that you can't you have to prove that you can. And you haven't proved that, you only have shown that the wording on wish is not specific, in those cases you still follow the rules on magic item creation. And for what you try to accomplish it would require a custom one, and in order to create those there are only guidelines.

What rule in the DMG applies? I've shown that the "limitations" of the DMG magic item creation don't apply whereas the existence of them allows for the possibility of their creation.

Wish only specifies that you need to pay more XP points it does at no point mention that you don't need item creation feats or that you don't need to follow the item creation rules thus you need to follow said rules.

Unless you can mention clarification on wish, specifying that you don't have to follow item creation rules, you have to follow those rules.

[gooddragon1]

No, I don't have to prove that you can't you have to prove that you can. And you haven't proved that, you only have shown that the wording on wish is not specific, in those cases you still follow the rules on magic item creation. And for what you try to accomplish it would require a custom one, and in order to create those there are only guidelines.

Wish only specifies that you need to pay more XP points it does at no point mention that you don't need item creation feats or that you don't need to follow the item creation rules thus you need to follow said rules.

Unless you can mention clarification on wish, specifying that you don't have to follow item creation rules, you have to follow those rules.

I can create a magic item. I must pay 2x XP cost + 5000 XP. I have no other limitations stated. If it were going to limit me to the prerequisites it would have done so in the rules. I showed two examples where it says that prerequisites do and don't have to be met (bonus feats for the fighter and bonus feats for the monk). Since it doesn't mention prerequisites at all, unless you can provide a source where it clarifies that wish does then it doesn't simply by exclusion.

It doesn't say you have to be a specific class to benefit from a potion of cure light wounds. It's not inconceivable that a class could prohibit you from doing so and types such as undead certainly do not gain the benefit. But since it doesn't mention a class requirement to benefit from that item even though some items do have class requirements it doesn't apply.

I am following the magic item creation rules but not the restrictions.

[God Imperror]

All that still creates a magic item of those existent or relies on guidelines that must be approved by the dm to generate a custom magic item. You seem to be really obtuse on having precedence for stuff and all that, and you cannot list any sourced magical item that does what you want it to do, can you? You are then relying on the DM to allow that magic item to exist, since there is no precedence.

[gooddragon1]

All that still creates a magic item of those existent or relies on guidelines that must be approved by the dm to generate a custom magic item. You seem to be really obtuse on having precedence for stuff and all that, and you cannot list any sourced magical item that does what you want it to do, can you? You are then relying on the DM to allow that magic item to exist, since there is no precedence.

Wish allows creation of a magic item and does not mention that it has to be an existing one. Because it's creating a custom magic item without prerequisites the only "approval" factor the DM has is the amount of XP it costs. Guess how much XP I have to work with. He cannot say it does not exist in a vacuum as it does exist since the possibility for its existence exists. His only line of control is it's XP cost.

[TheFallenOne]

Summary of thread
1. OP thinks he has an oh so clever idea.
2. Another user explains why it doesn't work like that.
3. OP objects but fails to provide any proof.
4. Repeat 2-4.

[gooddragon1]

Summary of thread
1. OP thinks he has a oh so clever idea.
2. Another user explains why it doesn't work like that.
3. OP objects but fails to provide any proof..
4. Repeat 2-4.

1-True
2-Opinion
3-Opinion
4-:/ *shrug*

[God Imperror]

Wish allows creation of a magic item and does not mention that it has to be an existing one. Because it's creating a custom magic item without prerequisites the only "approval" factor the DM has is the amount of XP it costs. Guess how much XP I have to work with. He cannot say it does not exist in a vacuum as it does exist since the possibility for its existence exists. His only line of control is it's XP cost.

Well maybe what you are trying to create is an artifact, so bad creating those is beyond the scope of wish.

[gooddragon1]

Well maybe what you are trying to create is an artifact, so bad creating those is beyond the scope of wish.

Actually it's not. An artifact is a type of magic item. The prerequisites for it can only be met by deities with this "Craft Artifact" which interestingly enough shows an artifact to be a magic item that exceeds the limits for such items. Fortunately, I don't have to meet those prerequisites :). Just the XP. Which I don't have to meet either.

[Twilightwyrm]

First of all, all the discussion of DM fiat, and this any discussion in this entire topic is essentially moot, because the scenario outright says this assumes a cooperative DM. Now, given what you are doing here is essentially breaking the game by level 5, I have a difficult time thinking any DM would be cooperative in this endeavor, and thus already we run into the problem that this is in fact reliant on DM fiat being on your side. Furthermore, at this point, why bother with your chain here? A truly "cooperative DM" will just let you find an unlimited Ring of Wishes, obviating the need for any of these shenanigans. So if we want any discussion, we need to assume a not necessarily cooperative DM, who can, and likely will, screw up your plan at every stage. Don't believe me? Well here are all the points in the process where a non-cooperative DM can completely shut this down (of, and for the record, never say "the DM can't do X", because rule zero, which is in fact RAW, says that they can)

1. You do not find a scroll of Planar Binding. No shops in your region sell them, and indeed there are no spellcasters available to hire to cast them. This is both the simplest solution, and actually a quite plausible one. 11th level casters are rather rare, and don't typically just sell Planar Binding Scrolls, due to the potential for abuse, so finding one is going to be exceedingly difficult, and probably beyond the reasonable scope of a 5th level wizard. (Unless the DM is cooperative, the Candle of Invocation is out entirely. Despite their relatively low cost, they require a 17th level caster, or the same alignment as the Solar, to make, and sell them, which are infinity more rare than even an 11th level one.)
2. You need to convince the Efreeti to cooperate. This will be MUCH more difficult than it sounds. The Efreeti initially gains a will save to resist being called at all, and since the minimum DC of a Planar Binding scroll is 19 (Any scroll you buy is assumed to have this unless otherwise states (And no, you can't "Just get one from a caster with a hilariously high modifier". You would typically have to seek out such an individual, and convince them to help you, an expansive quest in an of itself since you are essentially trying to find the most powerful conjurer in the land)), it has roughly a 50% chance of foiling the spell right there. Next, a single scroll of Dimensional Anchor will not work for this purpose, since it only lasts for minutes per level, meaning the Efreeti can simply Plane Shift out as soon as it ends. Further, the magic circle only works for 50 minutes, so unless you keep on casting it over and over, it will be essentially pointless. (Not to mention there are a number of combinations of the Efreeti's SLAs that can get it out regardless) And the Efreeti WILL NOT be cooperative, and likely hostile, and moment it finds out it has been summoned by a creature markedly less powerful than itself, which it WILL consider personally insulting (Lawful Evil alignment + described as being incredibly arrogant = this). So assuming you don't have an unnaturally high Charisma modifier, you have a very good chance of losing the opposed Charisma check, meaning you now need to actually convince it to help you, without any aid from the spell.
3. You mentioned offering him 50000 gold for a wish. This will not work for two reasons: 1) According to the WBL guidelines, you do not have this much money, and will not have it for another 5-6 levels and 2) Unless you got a down-on-his-luck Efreeti, this will be a paltry reward, from a comparatively weak individual the Efreeti is already hostile towards, considering Efreeti live in a city with a treasury describes to hold more money than exists in the kingdom, and likely the three surrounding kingdoms, combined. The DM can just give you a member of Efreeti nobility, ensuring this will be the case, and increasing both its arrogance and its tendency towards seeking revenge later on. Further, once the Efreeti actually hears the wish (to summon a Solar), it will be even less inclined to fulfill this wish, as it both likely hates solar, and recognizes the extreme threat to itself that such a being poses.
4) This is most important, because it means this plan is impossible by the RAW: Wish cannot replicate the Gate Spell. Wish can only replicate spells of 8th level or lower, and Gate is 9th. Even a cooperative DM, by the RAW you were so happy you were so happy to note, cannot allow you to proceed further here. So, unless you want to resort to Greater Planar Binding, which will have all the problems I mentioned turned up to 11 (since the Solar will note that you summoned it hear via Efreeti, which will leave it unfriendly at best).
5) Also important to note, again because this part of the plan is impossible by RAW: Even if Wish could acomplish this, you are relying on the Efreeti to make it for you. A Solar has 22 HD, meaning it has more HD than twice the Efreeti's caster level, meaning the Efreeti cannot, by RAW, control the Solar with a Gate spell, meaning you are screwed.
6) Even if both these things could be accomplished, you are now relying on a Solar to make your wish, and the solar is under the control of the DM, meaning it can mess with your wish at this stage. (Reason: Doesn't like you, due to aforementioned summoning if it with an Lawful EVIL Efreeti) And even if you were to convince it to grant you a wish, you are still compelled to offer it a fair trade in return for its services. You are wishing for an item of near unlimited power. There is no possible service or item you can currently offer the Solar that would be a fair trade for such an item, especially, and the Solar would not be inclined to be lenient, as it would deem you unworthy of it, even if you were Lawful Good, due to your incredibly low level, which would make leaving it in your hands a liability.
7) Finally, even if you could convince the Solar to grant you this, the DM can disallow it within the wish spell. Yes the wish spell does say "create a magic item, or add to the power of an existing one" and yes, as you have noted, this is relatively broad and vague. Therefore, as per the DMG, it is up to the DM to rule the specifics regarding it, meaning your DM CAN rule that this is impossible. Yes, there are rules for creating magic items, but there is also nothing saying, or not saying, you can use these items in the context of making a wish, as it says "Create a magic item" not "Create any magic item". Wherever there is ambiguity in the rules, the DM, and not YOU, gets to define the limits and extant of what they allow. So really, this just ties back into what everyone else here has been telling you: this relies on DM fiat regarding the Rules As Written, and therefore you can't do this in spite of the DM.
Final Note: Even within the Rules As Written, there is very little even a reasonable DM cannot prevent you from doing, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Wish spell.

[gooddragon1]

First of all, all the discussion of DM fiat, and this any discussion in this entire topic is essentially moot, because the scenario outright says this assumes a cooperative DM. Now, given what you are doing here is essentially breaking the game by level 5, I have a difficult time thinking any DM would be cooperative in this endeavor, and thus already we run into the problem that this is in fact reliant on DM fiat being on your side. Furthermore, at this point, why bother with your chain here? A truly "cooperative DM" will just let you find an unlimited Ring of Wishes, obviating the need for any of these shenanigans. So if we want any discussion, we need to assume a not necessarily cooperative DM, who can, and likely will, screw up your plan at every stage. Don't believe me? Well here are all the points in the process where a non-cooperative DM can completely shut this down (of, and for the record, never say "the DM can't do X", because rule zero, which is in fact RAW, says that they can)

1. You do not find a scroll of Planar Binding. No shops in your region sell them, and indeed there are no spellcasters available to hire to cast them. This is both the simplest solution, and actually a quite plausible one. 11th level casters are rather rare, and don't typically just sell Planar Binding Scrolls, due to the potential for abuse, so finding one is going to be exceedingly difficult, and probably beyond the reasonable scope of a 5th level wizard. (Unless the DM is cooperative, the Candle of Invocation is out entirely. Despite their relatively low cost, they require a 17th level caster, or the same alignment as the Solar, to make, and sell them, which are infinity more rare than even an 11th level one.)
2. You need to convince the Efreeti to cooperate. This will be MUCH more difficult than it sounds. The Efreeti initially gains a will save to resist being called at all, and since the minimum DC of a Planar Binding scroll is 19 (Any scroll you buy is assumed to have this unless otherwise states (And no, you can't "Just get one from a caster with a hilariously high modifier". You would typically have to seek out such an individual, and convince them to help you, an expansive quest in an of itself since you are essentially trying to find the most powerful conjurer in the land)), it has roughly a 50% chance of foiling the spell right there. Next, a single scroll of Dimensional Anchor will not work for this purpose, since it only lasts for minutes per level, meaning the Efreeti can simply Plane Shift out as soon as it ends. Further, the magic circle only works for 50 minutes, so unless you keep on casting it over and over, it will be essentially pointless. (Not to mention there are a number of combinations of the Efreeti's SLAs that can get it out regardless) And the Efreeti WILL NOT be cooperative, and likely hostile, and moment it finds out it has been summoned by a creature markedly less powerful than itself, which it WILL consider personally insulting (Lawful Evil alignment + described as being incredibly arrogant = this). So assuming you don't have an unnaturally high Charisma modifier, you have a very good chance of losing the opposed Charisma check, meaning you now need to actually convince it to help you, without any aid from the spell.
3. You mentioned offering him 50000 gold for a wish. This will not work for two reasons: 1) According to the WBL guidelines, you do not have this much money, and will not have it for another 5-6 levels and 2) Unless you got a down-on-his-luck Efreeti, this will be a paltry reward, from a comparatively weak individual the Efreeti is already hostile towards, considering Efreeti live in a city with a treasury describes to hold more money than exists in the kingdom, and likely the three surrounding kingdoms, combined. The DM can just give you a member of Efreeti nobility, ensuring this will be the case, and increasing both its arrogance and its tendency towards seeking revenge later on. Further, once the Efreeti actually hears the wish (to summon a Solar), it will be even less inclined to fulfill this wish, as it both likely hates solar, and recognizes the extreme threat to itself that such a being poses.
4) This is most important, because it means this plan is impossible by the RAW: Wish cannot replicate the Gate Spell. Wish can only replicate spells of 8th level or lower, and Gate is 9th. Even a cooperative DM, by the RAW you were so happy you were so happy to note, cannot allow you to proceed further here. So, unless you want to resort to Greater Planar Binding, which will have all the problems I mentioned turned up to 11 (since the Solar will note that you summoned it hear via Efreeti, which will leave it unfriendly at best).
5) Also important to note, again because this part of the plan is impossible by RAW: Even if Wish could acomplish this, you are relying on the Efreeti to make it for you. A Solar has 22 HD, meaning it has more HD than twice the Efreeti's caster level, meaning the Efreeti cannot, by RAW, control the Solar with a Gate spell, meaning you are screwed.
6) Even if both these things could be accomplished, you are now relying on a Solar to make your wish, and the solar is under the control of the DM, meaning it can mess with your wish at this stage. (Reason: Doesn't like you, due to aforementioned summoning if it with an Lawful EVIL Efreeti) And even if you were to convince it to grant you a wish, you are still compelled to offer it a fair trade in return for its services. You are wishing for an item of near unlimited power. There is no possible service or item you can currently offer the Solar that would be a fair trade for such an item, especially, and the Solar would not be inclined to be lenient, as it would deem you unworthy of it, even if you were Lawful Good, due to your incredibly low level, which would make leaving it in your hands a liability.
7) Finally, even if you could convince the Solar to grant you this, the DM can disallow it within the wish spell. Yes the wish spell does say "create a magic item, or add to the power of an existing one" and yes, as you have noted, this is relatively broad and vague. Therefore, as per the DMG, it is up to the DM to rule the specifics regarding it, meaning your DM CAN rule that this is impossible. Yes, there are rules for creating magic items, but there is also nothing saying, or not saying, you can use these items in the context of making a wish, as it says "Create a magic item" not "Create any magic item". Wherever there is ambiguity in the rules, the DM, and not YOU, gets to define the limits and extant of what they allow. So really, this just ties back into what everyone else here has been telling you: this relies on DM fiat regarding the Rules As Written, and therefore you can't do this in spite of the DM.
Final Note: Even within the Rules As Written, there is very little even a reasonable DM cannot prevent you from doing, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Wish spell.

I would like to clarify Cooperative to Non-interfering. If there is a method by which it can work then it does. Of course the DM could just say no at any point, of course there could be no such scroll, of course the efreeti could be unreasonable... but the DM is not interfering. There's a magic item shop that you find, the efreeti is reasonable, the gate spell is replicated through an item called a candle of invocation allowing up to 34 HD to be controlled...

No DM with a brain and a reason to want to balance his campaign will allow this. That's why it's called theoretical optimization. This is the absolute theoretical limit of power.

So when we deal with just RAW and no DM interference it does work. A magic item non-specified could be any magic item (barring DM interference).

[Twilightwyrm]

I would like to clarify Cooperative to Non-interfering. If there is a method by which it can work then it does. Of course the DM could just say no at any point, of course there could be no such scroll, of course the efreeti could be unreasonable... but the DM is not interfering. There's a magic item shop that you find, the efreeti is reasonable, the gate spell is replicated through an item called a candle of invocation allowing up to 34 HD to be controlled...

No DM with a brain and a reason to want to balance his campaign will allow this. That's why it's called theoretical optimization. This is the absolute theoretical limit of power.

So when we deal with just RAW and no DM interference it does work. A magic item non-specified could be any magic item (barring DM interference).

I know, I was assuming a DM that is not-necessarily cooperative, not a malicious or hostile one (that would make this much more difficult). This is the definition of an impartial, non-interfering DM, who simply lets actions have their natural reactions. But actions have consequences, and even within the realm of theoretical optimization, you cannot assume your actions exist entirely within a bubble, as even all other things being equal, this will not be true. Efreeti are establishes to both react this way, and mess with their granted wishes, and Solars are established to be unfriendly towards Efreeti (which is something that confused me about your method, since a Noble Djinni is both generic enough to summon with Planar Binding, and avoid much of the hostility you would encounter with an Efreeti). But even assuming that you can find everything you need, and neither Efreeti nor Solar is particularly hostile towards you, you still have two mechanical problems:

1) Wish cannot replicate a Gate spell.
2) An Efreeti has 10 HD, meaning it cannot compel a wish, as per the Gate spell, from a Solar, which has 22 HD. Even if the Efreeti could get the Gate spell, all it could do with it would be get the Solar to your location.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I would like to clarify Cooperative to Non-interfering. If there is a method by which it can work then it does. Of course the DM could just say no at any point, of course there could be no such scroll, of course the efreeti could be unreasonable... but the DM is not interfering. There's a magic item shop that you find, the efreeti is reasonable, the gate spell is replicated through an item called a candle of invocation allowing up to 34 HD to be controlled...

No DM with a brain and a reason to want to balance his campaign will allow this. That's why it's called theoretical optimization. This is the absolute theoretical limit of power.

So when we deal with just RAW and no DM interference it does work. A magic item non-specified could be any magic item (barring DM interference).

That's all fine, but it doesn't really add legitimacy to the theory. I mean, you're basically saying that as long as there is a single interpretation of the rules that can argue for it, it counts as right, even if every other interpretation argues against it.

See, the difference between something like this and something like Pun Pun, is that the rules actually spell out Pun Pun working exactly the way it does. There are specific rules for knowing about Pazuzu, for calling him, for getting a wish from him, for shapechanging into the Sarrukh, for sharing spells with your familiar, and so on and so forth. Following those rules, doing only and exactly what they strictly and unambiguously define as allowed, leads to Pun Pun.

That's optimization. When you present that course of action to a DM, they say no not because they have a different interpretation of a vague rule, but because they, as DM, are stepping in to exclude it from the game. When you present this wish exploit to a DM, they can say no because Wish doesn't specifically say you can create any magic item, or because your unlimited power item isn't an existing magic item, or because the guidelines for creating custom magic items from any source are solely under the purview of the DM, or for various other reasons that don't require changing or ignoring the rules, but only require reading them in a slightly different way than you did. That's neither fiat nor rule 0, it's merely the fact that when the DM and a player disagree on how an ambiguous rule works, the DM wins.

If Pun Pun is an example of optimization taken to its logical extreme, this would have to be an example of munchkinry taken to its logical extreme. Which is an interesting thought experiment in and of itself, up there with stuff like drowning healing and death not actually stopping you from acting, but it's not the same thing.

[animewatcha]

Okay. I've gotten access to a wish spell like ability from a monster and the DM has no power to disagree with anything except by the rules written.

I wish for an item that grants me an ability of my choice.

The DM says: Okay, but I get to set the XP cost for this wish. It is infinite.

I say: That's fine, I ignore the XP cost too as a result of the wording of a spell like ability.

This is where you stand. Where in the rules will it stop me from doing that? Another thing I noticed. You get 1 shot a day on that wish. So make it count.

Actually where we stand stops at the 'an ability of my choice' since the rest is pretty much irrelevant via the spell like ability thing.

So far. Still gotta check with aphelon on question I asked him.

1. Need to mention method of getting in control of said 'solar'

2. So far until mentioning of method, so far going by what you said, you can simply not at all within your character lifetime and not within what you posted.

3. Another person get controls of your 'solar' just in time and you are outta a wish.

4. <insert deity here> says no.

5. Antimagic field. Mage's disjunction. Traps.

Given the above, I will allow "reasonable to me" alterations to your post one time. And only one time unless I say otherwise. Another thing I noticed on the solar. You get one shot a day on that spell like ability. So make it count.

[gooddragon1]

I know, I was assuming a DM that is not-necessarily cooperative, not a malicious or hostile one (that would make this much more difficult). This is the definition of an impartial, non-interfering DM, who simply lets actions have their natural reactions. But actions have consequences, and even within the realm of theoretical optimization, you cannot assume your actions exist entirely within a bubble, as even all other things being equal, this will not be true. Efreeti are establishes to both react this way, and mess with their granted wishes, and Solars are established to be unfriendly towards Efreeti (which is something that confused me about your method, since a Noble Djinni is both generic enough to summon with Planar Binding, and avoid much of the hostility you would encounter with an Efreeti). But even assuming that you can find everything you need, and neither Efreeti nor Solar is particularly hostile towards you, you still have two mechanical problems:

1) Wish cannot replicate a Gate spell.
2) An Efreeti has 10 HD, meaning it cannot compel a wish, as per the Gate spell, from a Solar, which has 22 HD. Even if the Efreeti could get the Gate spell, all it could do with it would be get the Solar to your location.

Wish creates an item: Candle of Invocation
Item casts Gate at 17th level. Also Efreeti casts SLA at 12th CL

Heat (Ex)

An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.
Spell-Like Abilities

At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.

===

Actually where we stand stops at the 'an ability of my choice' since the rest is pretty much irrelevant via the spell like ability thing.

So far. Still gotta check with aphelon on question I asked him.

1. Need to mention method of getting in control of said 'solar'

2. So far until mentioning of method, so far going by what you said, you can simply not at all within your character lifetime and not within what you posted.

3. Another person get controls of your 'solar' just in time and you are outta a wish.

4. <insert deity here> says no.

5. Antimagic field. Mage's disjunction. Traps.

Given the above, I will allow "reasonable to me" alterations to your post one time. And only one time unless I say otherwise. Another thing I noticed on the solar. You get one shot a day on that spell like ability. So make it count.

See above for gate rules.

See above sentence.

DM fiat.

DM fiat.

DM fiat.

===

That's all fine, but it doesn't really add legitimacy to the theory. I mean, you're basically saying that as long as there is a single interpretation of the rules that can argue for it, it counts as right, even if every other interpretation argues against it.

See, the difference between something like this and something like Pun Pun, is that the rules actually spell out Pun Pun working exactly the way it does. There are specific rules for knowing about Pazuzu, for calling him, for getting a wish from him, for shapechanging into the Sarrukh, for sharing spells with your familiar, and so on and so forth. Following those rules, doing only and exactly what they strictly and unambiguously define as allowed, leads to Pun Pun.

That's optimization. When you present that course of action to a DM, they say no not because they have a different interpretation of a vague rule, but because they, as DM, are stepping in to exclude it from the game. When you present this wish exploit to a DM, they can say no because Wish doesn't specifically say you can create any magic item, or because your unlimited power item isn't an existing magic item, or because the guidelines for creating custom magic items from any source are solely under the purview of the DM, or for various other reasons that don't require changing or ignoring the rules, but only require reading them in a slightly different way than you did. That's neither fiat nor rule 0, it's merely the fact that when the DM and a player disagree on how an ambiguous rule works, the DM wins.

If Pun Pun is an example of optimization taken to its logical extreme, this would have to be an example of munchkinry taken to its logical extreme. Which is an interesting thought experiment in and of itself, up there with stuff like drowning healing and death not actually stopping you from acting, but it's not the same thing.

Ever heard of the vigilante prestige class? It has 20 3rd level spell slots.

... Take the Vigilante from Complete Adventurer, for instance. Anyone out there seriously believe that his rather abrupt jump from 1 third level spell at level 6 to 20 at level 7 is NOT a mistake? ... "Rules are rules! The rulebook says 20 third level spells at seventh level! If you do it any other way, you're houseruling! I'm gonna make some GREAT builds based on this rule!"

This is related to what I'm doing.

I'm saying that if a DM didn't actively stop me I could create a magic item through enough XP without the prerequisites that happens to be an artifact that can do anything. You guys are hanging up on the "but it doesn't say you can do that specifically" and "There are rules here and here that mention prerequisites" and "I'd never allow that and I'd do this to stop you". The rules don't say specifically that a greatsword deals damage to an Orc on a successful hit either. It mentions their damage but it never mentions Orcs at all. Yet we know that they do. I have shown that the rules mention prerequisites when they are required and very often the rules don't mention prerequisites when they aren't required. The wish spell should have mentioned whether or not it has prerequisites but it doesn't. If it doesn't then you can't just tack them on and say it does as that isn't part of the spell unless you plan on houseruling. A pillar of the pun-pun build is that he wishes for a candle of invocation and through that summons an efreeti who he wishes for more candles of invocation as needed. That doesn't specify how it ignores the prerequisites but I have. I have shown that without a restriction on the use of the ability it can work with a DM who does not interfere. That's the premise. The DM does not interfere.

[animewatcha]

1. Please do read the whole spell then. As creating this is quite the involved task to account for every ability Even then, casting the spell/spell-like ability with your approach still screws you over. You might not even get the solar you want at all.

2. By fine print, you can still not get it within your character's lifetime. The part of 'within what you posted' has do to with number 1.

3. Usually it is, but in DnD world people just like you wanna get exactly what you want. So it would be perfectly normal within the rules for the solar's day to be consisting of going through 8787587 wizards/sorcerors/etc. within their demiplanes bending the rules around magic.

4. Whether or not the DM is involved, it is perfectly for Deities to 'say no' to this type of thing so that mortals and stay out of their power range, 'keep them in their place', etc.

5. You can claim it as DM fiat, but in DnD world. Maybe there are others that don't want **** like yours being used against them. Like say the solar itself.

Last chance before I ask this thread to be closed. Also, you also have to be same aligned-good yourself to gate in a solar via candle of invocation period and <insert methods here that DM lets natural course taken of> so a good character doesn't screw stuff up.

sidenote: sorry. Editing a lot due to mistakes made on my end. Really late at night for me.

[gooddragon1]

1. Please do read the whole spell then. As creating this is quite the involved task to account for every ability Even then, casting the spell/spell-like ability with your approach still screws you over. You might not even get the solar you want at all.

2. By fine print, you can still not get it within your character's lifetime. The part of 'within what you posted' has do to with number 1.

3. Usually it is, but in DnD world people just like you wanna get exactly what you want. So it would be perfectly normal within the rules for the solar's day to be consisting of going through 8787587 wizards/sorcerors/etc. within their demiplanes bending the rules around magic.

4. Whether or not the DM is involved, it is perfectly for Deities to 'say no' to this type of thing so that mortals and stay out of their power range, 'keep them in their place', etc.

5. You can claim it as DM fiat, but in DnD world. Maybe there are others that don't want **** like yours being used against them. Like say the solar itself.

Last chance before I ask this thread to be closed. Also, you also have to be good yourself to gate in a solar period and <insert methods here that DM lets natural course taken of> so a good character doesn't screw stuff up.

I want you to read the following: I assume no DM interference. The DM might as well not even be there. I am optimizing in a void.

Next, character wealth by level for a 5th level character is 9000 gp. A candle of invocation costs 8400 gp. I assume the DM will let me start with one and I will have 600 gp remaining.

I assume a lot of things of the DM in that he will not actively try to stop me. He will not use traps, he will not say the solar is unavailable, he will not get mad at me for doing this. I effectively assume the DM is a computer and that I'm playing a computer game version of D&D. If you want to ask for the thread to be closed that's your option, but I'm not going to try to convince you just because you say you'll do that if I don't.

Note: the DM could say Pazuzu is unavailable too. For the purposes of the thread he is available and willing just like the default of the rules states.

[animewatcha]

Anyone noticing that he keeps reaching for DM fiat sterf, when I brought in stuff that is very much in character for beings like Deities to do this type of thing, regardless of DM. Very much within rules and fluff and stuff of the DnD world.

Also, gooddragon. Last hint. "Too general."

[gooddragon1]

Anyone noticing that he keeps reaching for DM fiat sterf, when I brought in stuff that is very much in character for **** like Deities to do this type of this, regardless of DM. Very much within rules and fluff and stuff of the DnD world.

Also, gooddragon. Last hint. "Too general."

By your same logic the gods would stop pun-pun. And they would. We assume for the purpose of this thread that none of that happens.

Your hint confuses me.

[LTwerewolf]

Has anyone mentioned that within the world, the dm allowing an item to exist in itself is a fiat? Rule 0 expects the dm to create their own worlds where these items may not even be possible.

[animewatcha]

But with the pun-pun. It is actually acknowledged without the 'whining' that you are doing. Here you are in the bootcamp 'oh crap! That is actually being usable against me. WAHHH *crying eyes*'.

Expanding on 'too general', you choose to try and 'gate in a solar' but the 'solar' denies your request due to it being a deity or a unique being. Dwell on that please.

@Ltwerewolf: That is entering into territory that I am trying to get gooddragon to understand, but he isn't.