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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Then Head crab zombies from Half life don't count. Another dimension and outer space are the same thing: both are not "here".
    You do have a point there. But at least they closely resemble the classic zombie much more than the Flood or Necormorphs do.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    If we're disallowing based on manipulation of the base form the L4D Infected should be out, too. Boomers and Spitters have wildly inhuman biologies, only resembling humans on the outside as their entire physiology has been modified to suit their new role, and Smokers are in a pretty similar place. Also, why does it matter what the source of the zombies is? If it's a mutated virus or a necromancer or a magic space rock or hell being full shouldn't matter.
    The Spitter and Boomer have a mutated physiology, but compared to what the Flood and Necromophs do the differences are very minor. Take the Spitter. The acid it's spitting? Your body produces it all the time in your stomach. She just makes more of it. The only real alteration is the ability to spit so far. Boomers just (over) produce another substance your body already produces, bile with maybe a alteration that attracts common infected (smells more).

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    I think what cancels out, or should cancel out, rather Necromorps and the flood are that fact that there seems to be an intelligent design controlling them. Same with the Boomers and the Spitters. They seem to have some semblance of intelligence.

    I think another problem, is people are putting in the strain or various other products of whatever means is used to make zombies. Like for instance RE zombies, I don't think Lickers, Tyrants and other "mosters" from that series are considered Zombers per se. They are generally mutated or frankenstein'd out of a test tube. Same with the "special" infected from L4. There isn't any (as far as I know) real backstory about how the various strains of infected came to be.

    As far as the Necromorphs and The flood are concerned. I think they don't count as Zombies because they are a parasitic organism that uses the hosts body to make more of its kind. Sort of as a way of reproducing. Whereas most Zombie mythology is just worried about feeding, with the spreading of the disease as being a byproduct. Otherwise we could include other monsters such as, The Thing, from the movie, "The Thing".

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    As far as the Necromorphs and The flood are concerned. I think they don't count as Zombies because they are a parasitic organism that uses the hosts body to make more of its kind. Sort of as a way of reproducing.
    This would rule out the majority of the Resident Evil franchise, however, not just the supermonsters.

    No, I think the problem here is that by the terms of the initial post, the Necromorphs DO count, and are by far and away the more dangerous. To the point where it feels unfair.

    But they are Space Zombies, and that means they get an invite.

    The flood I'm not quite so sure on, but they do require dead hosts so they are arguably more zombie than the Rage type, or other new-style not-dead zombies. (The flood would be much more dangerous than most others too, but the no-host-poaching rule largely cuts off their chances of cheap wins and increased numbers).
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-09-18 at 07:23 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Intelligence is cheating. Zombies are not really zombies if they can employ advanced tactics all by their lonesome.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    LoL...
    well then, Romaro Zombies are out, than. In "Land of the Dead," they start learning to use tools and weapons. Also they start to see through distraction tactics, and start losing there "fear" of things such as fire and water.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    No mention of the Black Lanterns (Which may not be allowed) or the Marvel Zombies? (I've only read up to Marvel Zombies 5 though.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    I think another problem, is people are putting in the strain or various other products of whatever means is used to make zombies. Like for instance RE zombies, I don't think Lickers, Tyrants and other "mosters" from that series are considered Zombers per se. They are generally mutated or frankenstein'd out of a test tube. Same with the "special" infected from L4. There isn't any (as far as I know) real backstory about how the various strains of infected came to be.
    Actually (I think that it was from the commentary track) there have been explanations for the special infected. They don't make much sense but they are explinations:
    -Chargers were nerds.
    -Boomers are the morbidly obese and zombification kicks their already extremely active digestive system into overdrive.
    -Hunters are the extremely physically fit and behave as such.
    Jockeys were... Well paraplegics.
    -Smokers are people with mouth and/ or throat cancer. (Though it was originally going to be bowl cancer and the appendages that it grabs you with were going to be intestines.)
    -I'm afraid that I don't remember the explanation for Spitters.
    -Tanks were the uber-buff steroid abusers and came about because of the excess hormones.
    -The Witches were bulimic and the virus affected them differently because of the lack of food/ energy to work with.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    I stand by my selection. Unless the definition of 'zombie' is narrowed substantially, Necromorphs are zombies and are going to win.
    I would like to second that. Necromorphs are for all intents and purposes zombies.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    I'm fine with Necromorphs being zombies. However how infectious are they? Sheer numbers might be enough to turn the tide against them.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm fine with Necromorphs being zombies. However how infectious are they? Sheer numbers might be enough to turn the tide against them.
    Highly. Any corpse within a certain area (undetermined, but at least a few miles) of a Marker, or any corpse infected with whatever it is that Infectors inject into you will reform into a fully-functional Necromorph of type appropriate to the corpse in question within hours in the case of Marker radiation or seconds in the case of intervention by an Infector. Though they can be affected in very unpredictable ways by a Marker's presence; they are very strongly attracted to the Red Marker, while the Black Marker placed on its pedestal is sufficient to render them entirely inert for miles around. Regardless, Infectors can manages a corpse every four seconds or so, and are common enough that the spread shouldn't be much slower than the simpler methods of zombie generation.

    Even if they weren't so infectious, only the more dangerous Apocalypses could hope to outmatch them even with a gargantuan numerical advantage. The basic, entry level Slasher Necromorph is utterly immune to small-arms and almost immune to most forms of conventional attack. Anything without at the very least superhuman (two or three times human) strength or highly advanced or specialised weaponry isn't going to be able to bring them down permanently at all. They are also strong enough to rip apart steel plating (albeit slowly) and can decapitate an unarmoured human with a single swing of their scythe-like claws. The most dangerous ones, like Hunters? Wolverine-level regeneration and the strength to casually rip a human being in half. Anything short of total disintegration simply will not do the job. One Hunter or Ubermorph could likely solo a Romero-style Apocalypse.
    Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-09-18 at 10:57 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    How would a Hunter fare against a Tank? Tanks casually toss around cars and rip into concrete like it's mud.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Eh, it's a pretty guarenteed conversion if they kill you, though how useful your biomass is depends on what state you are in at that point, I guess. If all else fails they seem to resort to making zombie-carpet. They're of the "Dead flesh nearby" kind of brand, essentially, rather than infecting the living as such. Though they do infect the living beforehand, and it does have consequences, it isn't fatal on it's own.

    They are, however, one of the most durable types you're likely to encounter and quite dangerous too.

    In this specific scenario? Numbers, if genuinely overwhelming, might work, as they can't replace their losses from the attacking zombies. However, they'd likely be able to render many zombies harmless for each of their own neutralised and have a much more balanced range of threats on their side, what with the different varieties.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Sounds like the only things capable of posing a challenge to the Necromorphs are the supers from L4D and RE.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    How would a Hunter fare against a Tank? Tanks casually toss around cars and rip into concrete like it's mud.
    Oddly. The primary advantage the Hunter has is its nearly unstoppable regenerative ability. They'll simple regenerate any damage done to them after a couple of seconds, none the worse for wear. The only time we see one killed in canon, it is done by disintegrating it utterly using a space ship's exhaust stream. The thing will just shrug off anything the player can do to it. Otherwise, they're only nominally more dangerous than a Slasher, which the Tanks would tear apart fairly easily.

    I'd say the Tank would eventually get torn up badly enough to lose the fight, but not before tearing apart the Hunter a few times. But Tanks are much, much more common (Hunters and Ubermorphs can only be created by very specific circumstances), so enough of them might manage to cause enough damage to finish one off. Certainly a Tank to hold it down and two or three Spitters to eat it away with acid would do the job, if the Infected got lucky enough to run into that particular scenario.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    It might be my memory playing up, but wasn't there another type of large, brutish necromorph that was both bigger than the Hunter and more common? (The hunter was that one recurring one you couldn't kill, right?)

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    If we're using such questionable, bio-mass conversion type 'zombies' as Necromorphs and the Flood, why not toss the Blacklight Virus into the mix? Hunter, Tank, whatever-you-call-the-RE-special-zombies, I'm doubting they can hold a candle to Alex Mercer's kin.
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Regardless of the biophysiological causes of various zombies, one theme that has always held true is the theme of dehumanization. That's the fear that all zombie hordes truly represent. Beyond the pain of being ripped apart, we fear becoming a zombie because you wouldn't be human (or alive) anymore.

    If becoming a zombie means being infected by a Blacklight Virus, hell sign me up. The theme of that story is the direct opposite of the previous.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Just to toss in another pseudo-Zombie in culture, anyone who played Amnesia: The Dark Descent will remember the Grunts and Brutes that were lurking around the castle.

    They have simple cutting weapons grafted onto/in place of their arms or fingers, small knives as fingers in the Grunts, and an oversized cleaver for the Brutes replaces almost an entire arm. They are the bodies of ex-soldiers, so should be fairly physically capable in combat, though this isn't explored at all in-game

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdEmperor View Post
    If we're using such questionable, bio-mass conversion type 'zombies' as Necromorphs and the Flood, why not toss the Blacklight Virus into the mix? Hunter, Tank, whatever-you-call-the-RE-special-zombies, I'm doubting they can hold a candle to Alex Mercer's kin.
    Well, both Necromorphs and Flood do the proper zombie thing, of vaguely corpselike monstrosities stumbling towards you with their dead-ness grotesquely obvious.

    Isn't the whole Blacklight Virus/Alex Mercer thing just a comicbook super style version of "The Blob"? Or is there any actual zombing going on in there?

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Since the Flood is in this I'm giving it to them instead. For pure infectiveness they would have the most 'zombies' by far while also still being pretty strong. Even capable of wielding weapons.
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    The flood only really get weapons if they start with them, however, and the scenario seems to rule that out, as there's no human fightback.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    The flood only really get weapons if they start with them, however, and the scenario seems to rule that out, as there's no human fightback.
    It says the humans are quickly overwhelmed. Not that there was zero fight back at all. That said those with weapons would be incredibly rare. I don't think they would be that needed though.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    It says there are no Living humans left.

    I wonder does that preclude the zombies from films such as 28 days later, and zombie land?

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Well, both Necromorphs and Flood do the proper zombie thing, of vaguely corpselike monstrosities stumbling towards you with their dead-ness grotesquely obvious.

    Isn't the whole Blacklight Virus/Alex Mercer thing just a comicbook super style version of "The Blob"? Or is there any actual zombing going on in there?
    Oh yea, going by any purely physical definition that includes the Flood, Alex Mercer, aka ZEUS, without a doubt qualifies. More specifically, ZEUS is a living zombie plague, a mass of stolen bio-matter forced into the shape of a man, stealing the memories of those it eats and turning everyone who gets near into mindless, bloodthirsty monstrosities.

    So, it's a horrible monstrosity in the shape of a dead man that devours the flesh and brains of humans and spreads plague in it's footsteps. A zombie.

    But I'm willing to concede Tiki Snakes has a point. Even if ZEUS isn't really Mercer, he's still close enough to human in his emotions that it might be unfair to include him directly.

    That said, the lesser monstrosities his plague spawns are more than fit for competition. The baseline Blacklight Zombie is among the faster breeds, but otherwise nothing special and not immune to non-headshot kills. On the other hand, the more advanced Hunter-types are gog-darn terrifying. Besides immense toughness and speed, they can climb skyscrapers and survive falls from the same, regenerate and always, always come in packs. The Alpha Hunter is nearly as tough as Mercer himself and, thanks to immense regenerative capability, can only be killed if it's devoured by something with digestive strength equal to Mercer's. Even repeat fire from a tank won't stop it otherwise.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    I don't think things like those special zombies should be included, otherwise this isn't a zombie-mania thread, its a Mutant aberraton vs alien aberrtion thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    I don't think things like those special zombies should be included, otherwise this isn't a zombie-mania thread, its a Mutant aberraton vs alien aberrtion thread.
    True.

    Okay, so I'd like to propose the following four rules for a definition of 'zombie', as I read the OP's intent:

    -Must be recognizably humanoid (easy one).
    -Must be capable of and required to reproduce via infection of living or dead humanoid hosts.
    -Must not exceed gross physical limits of the pre-infection host body.
    -Must possess an overwhelming desire to infect/kill/eat humanoids, engaging in unilateral violence whenever possible.

    So, classic Romero shamblers would be baseline, as usual. 28DL ragers or LFD Infected would be game, but Special Infected wouldn't count. Nor would the various boss monsters of Resident Evil, leaving only the mook zombies. Necromorphs would be right out, since it sounds like even the baseline 'zombie' Necromorph is head and shoulders above a human. It's now a King Of The Shambling Hill contest, rather than Who Has The Meanest Video Game Miniboss...so who's taking the prize?

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    My personal rankings would be as follows:
    -Romero Zombies: By Land of the Dead, they're becoming semi-intelligent, to the point of the ability to use weapons. Zombies with guns > zombies without guns.
    -Newsflesh Zombies: Capable of sprinting/running if fresh or well-fed, exhibit tactical cunning in large groups, but no true intelligence and dependent on numbers for cunning.
    -Left 4 Dead Infected: Fast and tough, mass quickly, but mindless.
    -28 Days Later Infected: As LFD, but they don't seem to move in the same large mobs.

    -RE zombies (unknown): The one mention of them in-thread was classic shamblers, so if they're slow and lack any ability to coordinate, they're at the bottom of the heap.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-20 at 09:56 PM.
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    I know I am splitting hairs here. I don't think the Necromorphs are true zombies. They seem to be the worker-bees for some higher inelligences.
    Much like the Aliens from, well... Aliens. The Bugs from Starship Troopers. Unless the Necromorphs attack anything, and everything that moves. Then they would be Zombies. However, if they don't attack things like the bigger monsters.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    True.

    Okay, so I'd like to propose the following four rules for a definition of 'zombie', as I read the OP's intent:
    I'm down for that. Let's see what I can do:

    RE Zombies: Basically your standard Shamblers, except that when being 'killed' without being decapitated or immolated they will shortly return to 'life', stronger, faster, more agressive and with fresh claws. This may disqualify them. If it does not, it may give them an upper hand.

    Solanium Zombies: The Zombie Survival Guide zombies. Basically your normal dumb Romero Shambler, including the general immunity to anything but a headshot. Freeze up at subzero temperatures, going dormant until thawed. Flesh is extremely toxic to living beings, likely causing trouble for the Rage Zombies and Infected.

    Dead Rising Zombies: Shamblers. No special resistance to damage (in fact far less so than humans), seem to be physically weaker than a human being. Display an obvious horde mentality, being almost never seen in groups of less than ten. At night time, they become more aggressive and tougher. Seem to have some horribly rudimentary ability to use weapons.

    Of these, I'll go for the Romero zombies. Rudimentary intelligence, human-equivalent strenth and a slight bit of intelligence beats any of the above. Solanium zombies take anything that has 'infected'-style still alive zombies right out of the running.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    I know I am splitting hairs here. I don't think the Necromorphs are true zombies. They seem to be the worker-bees for some higher inelligences.
    Much like the Aliens from, well... Aliens. The Bugs from Starship Troopers. Unless the Necromorphs attack anything, and everything that moves. Then they would be Zombies. However, if they don't attack things like the bigger monsters.
    They... Really aren't smart. At all. Are you dead? If no, the Necromorphs will attack you. No exceptions, at least not that we've seen. Not even if leaving you be would be strictly beneficial to them. While they do have a shared hive mind, they never display anything beyond animal levels of intelligence. What they are is cunning, laying ambushes, using hit-and-run tactics and playing dead. It's never been confirmed if they're the purpose of the Markers or just a side effect of whatever they're actually for. But really, they are zombies. Deadly mutant space zombies, but zombies nonetheless. The games make it very, very clear on that front, with constant use of classic zombie imagery.
    Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-09-21 at 01:11 AM.
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    I know I am splitting hairs here. I don't think the Necromorphs are true zombies. They seem to be the worker-bees for some higher inelligences.
    Much like the Aliens from, well... Aliens. The Bugs from Starship Troopers. Unless the Necromorphs attack anything, and everything that moves. Then they would be Zombies. However, if they don't attack things like the bigger monsters.
    Uh, not sure exactly what you mean there. Far as I know, there isn't really anything other than humans and necromorphs in Dead Space, and the Necromorphs do pretty relentlessly attack the humans in much the way you'd expect of zombies. It's really hard to legitimately describe the Necromorphs as anything other than zombies in space, really. That is pretty explicitely what they are.
    Though the general Necromorph forms aren't really so far gone that you could say they are really that far above a human, as it's quite doable for a plucky survivor to punch, kick and mash his way through a room or two of them if he's desperate enough. It's just that if you don't have the right tools to stop them, it's an exhausting and dangerous pass-time and requires a certain level of deliberate, concious effort in your violence that other zombies can't be expected to manage.

    Given their extreme durability and generally greater than average dangerousness though, I do think it's fair to say that they are simply not welcome in this weight catagory. Objectively, The Flood are a slightly similar situation, but they emphasise the Zombie side of things a lot less than the Necromorphs to my mind, stylistically. It's still present, though. I'm not seeing any real zombie theme in the blacklight virus thing, but having not played the game it's hard to say. It'd certainly be a fair target for bumping to another zombie-weight-classification, if they even are supposed to be a type of zombie.

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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    The newest RE zombies can obey basic commands and are capable of wielding weapons like guns and using chainsaws. They don't need to be decapitated though, but they can take a pretty large amount of abuse in comparison to a human.

    Also the RE virus can infect crows/ravens and dogs.
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    Default Re: [VS] Zombie free-for-all

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Okay, so I'd like to propose the following four rules for a definition of 'zombie', as I read the OP's intent:

    -Must be recognizably humanoid (easy one).
    -Must be capable of and required to reproduce via infection of living or dead humanoid hosts.
    -Must not exceed gross physical limits of the pre-infection host body.
    -Must possess an overwhelming desire to infect/kill/eat humanoids, engaging in unilateral violence whenever possible.
    Well then surely the clear winner are the Trioxim Zombies from The Return of the Living Dead:
    -They're exactly as physically capable as the living and are more than willing to mutilate themselves in order to reach they're prey. "And now you made me hurt myself again! You made me break my hand completely off this time Tina."

    -They retain all intellect (for better or for worse) and retain they're abilities for tool use and abstract planning. (Though they do seem to gain a swarming instinct that would be detrimental vs. that can take more punishment than the normal human body.)

    -They last longer and stay capable for a longer period of time. The Tarman and the Shoe Wearing Zombie were easily as strong as an animate skeleton as the other... Fuller zombies. Individual limbs are also still animate despite the lack of connection to the brain. Which is in fact unessercary to the continued survival of the undead. (Destroying the brain doesn't work.)

    -They're method of infection is more effective than many others. Trioxin when introduced to the water cycle is significantly more effective (is able to leach into sealed coffins and reanimate the Shoe Wearing Zombie in minutes despite it taking several hours to turn Freddy after he was doused in the stuff) than it is in it's gaseous form and they reanimate ALL dead bodies in an area rather than requiring transfer via biting. (So if you're caught in the rain then you're screwed.)

    Next comes the Marvel Zombies due to the fact that they also maintain they're physical and mental capacity but are unable to operate severed limbs from afar and are defeated by destroying the brain or severing the head.

    Romero Zombies for reasons already outlined by Glyphstone.

    The Shaun of the Dead Zombies. As physically capable as "core" Romero zombies but a little less intelligent. (I think we can all agree that it requires significantly more intellect to be civil than it does to play a FPS.)

    28 Day's Later Zombies (Allowed because they don't enhance the infected physically they just remove the limiters that stop ourselves from hurting ourselves.) and the Solenium Zombies tie for third. They're increased aggression, speed and physical capacity bump the former up a notch but they're method for infection is incredibly inefficient and so would have lower numbers than the other zombies as well as the shorter shelf life.

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