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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I agree with veti; people's willingness to take Tarquin at his word is mystifying.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    You people are so...so...so mindlessly vindictive.

    So Tarquin has already won. Why is it that the only way to counter this is to murder him and his legacy in increasingly brutal and/or ignominious ways?

    **** Tarquin losing. I just want Elan to win. What's the best revenge, again?

    (Besides, the only way to make Tarquin lose is to lead him to the realization that he's been playing the wrong game all this time. You don't do that by completing his narrative and killing him off.)
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I agree with veti; people's willingness to take Tarquin at his word is mystifying.
    Generally, when characters reveal their plans, intentions and viewpoints, in is not only for their in-universe listeners, but also for the audience, so that they get a better grasp of the character's personality. Yes, the characters, especially villains, may subtly deceive, but they will not outright lie with a sincere face.

    Consider Redcloak here. How many people think he lied to Tsukiko about his plans? And he had every reason to lie (like, so she won't spill the beans to Twelve Gods in her afterlife). Yet somehow it's obvious he didn't and it was the real deal.

    Why should Tarquin revealing his plan be any different?
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    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    You know what would be cool? If Tarquin killed Xykon via deus ex machina, winked at the viewers, and then drove off in a luxury car with two European models while screaming "I win everything! Take that, forum hatedom!"
    Last edited by oppyu; 2012-09-27 at 05:30 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Why should Tarquin revealing his plan be any different?
    Because Tarquin is, as the saying goes, a lying liar who lies. That is part of his characterization - he is manipulative, insincere, and always has a Plan E. It would strike me as at least mildly jarring if he freely admitted everything to Elan - who, son or not, is his antagonist - in the first place, and all the more so if what he was admitting was that - at least until Elan came along - he did not have a backup plan.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Well, Tarquin has a soft spot for Elan. Despite being used to a life of manipulation and deceit, Tarquin still thinks Elan is
    a) highly competent hero
    b) leader of his party
    c) the more active one in his relationship with Haley.

    Tarquin has his weaknesses. The horrible judgement of both his sons is one of them that will probably bite him later.

    I don't think it's unlikely that he opened up to his long-lost, highly charismatic son that understands and lives by the rules of drama (maybe Elan is the very first person in many years that shares Tarquin's flair for dramatic? Malack certainly doesn't).

    Also, what possible aim wanted Tarquin to achieve by lying to Elan about his plans? To freak the hell out of him?
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-09-27 at 06:28 PM.
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    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Also, what possible aim wanted Tarquin to achieve by lying to Elan about his plans? To freak the hell out of him?
    Let me clarify: I think Tarquin is certainly being honest about his plans to take control of the continent, and almost certainly about his intention to tell "the best story ever" with Elan. What I'm questioning, though, was whether becoming posthumously known as a famous villain in song was his plan all along - as he indicates - or whether it's something he's come up with after meeting Elan. I don't think he was ever planning to be killed by some random do-gooder like he claimed.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    IMO Tarquin, however savvy he is, doesn't know how he could effectively defy death. He knows he is going down eventually, so he wants to make the most out of it. Before he met adult Elan he just thought he might be, at worst, killed during some sort of peasant rebellion. And at best he would die of old age as the unofficial Lord of the Western Continent. Even the worst scenario was satisfactory for him then, and now it just got better with Elan.

    But he admits this all: "If I win, I get to be a king", after all.
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    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Also, what possible aim wanted Tarquin to achieve by lying to Elan about his plans? To freak the hell out of him?
    What he achieved by saying, "Even if I lose, I win," is obvious whether it was the truth or a lie. Elan believed (as do the people on the forum who take what Tarquin said as gospel truth) that there was no way he could truly defeat Tarquin, even if the entire Order was able to kill him.

    If Tarquin had said, "If your adventuring group kills me...well, yeah, then I'll be sad about having lost," Elan's path would have been clear and the forum would have had many fewer people arguing that Tarquin had already won.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I don't think he was ever planning to be killed by some random do-gooder like he claimed.
    Of course that wasn't his plan. A villian would have to be pretty incompetent to plan to fail.

    What Tarquin is doing is accepting the possibility. Rigging things so even if he loses and is killed, he has a consolation prize that he can live with accept. As Tarquin sees it, there are two things that can happen.

    1) Tarquin rules for the rest of his natural life and enjoys all of the luxury that comes with it. After he dies, he goes down in history as the man who ruled the Western Continent with an iron fist.

    2) Tarquin rules until some adventurer is finally able to best him and enjoys all of the luxury that comes with it. After he is killed, he goes down in history as the man who ruled the Western Continent with an iron fist.

    Both are wins in his eye. Sure, the first one is better since he gets to live longer, but he knows he isn't going to live forever. He isn't about to lich-ify himself like Xykon or find some other method to live forever (and if he intended to, I'd say it's well within his power to have already have done so).

    By the rules Tarquin has chosen to play by, he has already won. The only way Tarquin loses is if he dies and is forgotten (which would be... difficult to say the least). And even then, he arguably still wins because he's already ruled with an iron fist and enjoyed all the luxury that comes with it for quite some time.

    This doesn't mean that he can't be beaten... It doesn't mean the order can't defeat him and move on... It just means that they have to play by their own rules to do so. (For example: Dethrone him, prevent him from coming back and who cares whether he is remembered or not?)
    Last edited by TheSummoner; 2012-09-27 at 08:44 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    A villian would have to be pretty incompetent to plan to fail.
    Well, if it's your plan and it works doesn't that mean you are competent? Failing is only incompetent if your plan is to succeed. Well, you know what I mean.

    But no, I'm pretty sure T's plan is "Get power, live comfortably, leave a legend behind." The big snag I see is that he can't realistically expect to get all three; if he steps out to rule openly he gets his legend but either loses his power or ends up devoting the entire rest of his life to fighting a losing battle to hold onto it. Even if Elan kills him, who will even know that he wasn't some random serial second-in-command? Kind of a serious flaw for such a skilled schemer.
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-09-27 at 10:48 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    What he achieved by saying, "Even if I lose, I win," is obvious whether it was the truth or a lie. Elan believed (as do the people on the forum who take what Tarquin said as gospel truth) that there was no way he could truly defeat Tarquin, even if the entire Order was able to kill him.

    If Tarquin had said, "If your adventuring group kills me...well, yeah, then I'll be sad about having lost," Elan's path would have been clear and the forum would have had many fewer people arguing that Tarquin had already won.
    I don't see how Tarquin would not choose to believe in his no-defeat standpoint. Most of the villains (as well as some fans and haters out there) choose their belief in order to what sounds convenient to them.

    Imagine Tarquin being depressed after (or shortly before) his death. Like "I am totally dead now; oh man, this sucks so much, despite I lived the life I wanted for 99% of my lifespan and I was going to die in 20 years, tops, anyway." Doesn't sound like him
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-09-28 at 02:48 AM.
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    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Oops, didn't mean to do that.
    Last edited by ti'esar; 2012-09-28 at 05:08 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Kish's argument is that Tarquin's no-defeat standpoint does not exist in the first place, not that he's (for some reason) choosing not to believe in it.
    How come that a standpoint that was already expressed doesn't exist?

    Even if Tarquin made the scenario up to avoid being attacked by the Order (however ridiculous that seems to me), wouldn't he be better off if he actually started to believe it?
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    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Outside Time Travel, there is no way how to make Tarquin lose in his own game.
    That's an exaggeration.
    Can Tarquin "win" by losing, becoming The Protagonist in a sort of legendary tale? certainly yes, but he needs to be defeated openly, with a vast audience, with someone (preferably Elan) telling The Story, and so on...

    Kill him now, in the desert, and sing the poem about The Lich and The Gates, and Tarquin will only be a missing general, that soon will be forgotten.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-09-28 at 04:04 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    By the way, I don't believe I've actually stated my personal opinion on Tarquin, so for the record, I like him plenty. He's had interesting effects on Elan's character development and remains pretty funny. He's a horrible human being - one who, underneath the style, is not just evil but petty in a really unpleasant way - and I'd like him to get what he deserves, but I don't feel any vindictive need for him to see everything crumble around him and realize he was wrong (I do hope we get to see him realize he's not at the center of the story).

    The chief and only thing I dislike about Tarquin as a character is the constant forum controversies he seems to stir up, like this very thread. The Tarquin arguments don't even have the merit of being thought-provoking like some of those on Redcloak, or (to a lesser degree) V and Miko. They're just petty, and it doesn't help that both sides seem to have the same exaggerated attitude towards his competence. So in that respect, I do look forward to his dying or otherwise leaving the comic.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    You guys are forgetting that Elan did have some sort of secret plan to usurp Tarquin without him winning (or maybe not.) I always assumed that Elan's plan was to exile Tarquin to the desert after slapping on an imroved mark of justice for good measure.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    the only way Tarquin gets defeated is if he is redeemed. Then he follows Redemption=death and loses everything.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I can see why some people would hate Tarquin because he seems to always be ready for anything. Personally, I like that about him exactly because he seems near impossible to truly defeat. Makes me curious about how he will be defeated, or just waves away that whole stuff and go back to his own schemes. Don't really care what will happen to him, either he lives or not, just enjoying him for now.

    Nah, the one I'd really want to see bashed for good is Nale. The Linear Guild was fun at first, but at this point, their constant return is more than a hassle to me and I was disappointed that Belkar didn't get to finish him off.

    Oh, but I look forward to when Tarquin will realize that Elan is, in fact, barely competent in anything, even as a bard, and usually need guidance for most of what he'll manage to accomplish. This ought to be fun !

    Might be he's demise in the end.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    How come that a standpoint that was already expressed doesn't exist?

    Even if Tarquin made the scenario up to avoid being attacked by the Order (however ridiculous that seems to me), wouldn't he be better off if he actually started to believe it?
    ...Sure he would. Tsukiko would have been "better off" if, in her last few seconds of life, she had convinced herself that being eaten by wights was what she always wanted. Xykon would be "better off" if he convinced himself that no longer having a sense of taste is the goal he should always have been working toward, not having power.

    What people would be better off believing is immaterial to what they actually do believe. Each individual reader must decide whether Tarquin's claim that he'll take it philosophically if/when he dies is believable or not. Without waving it around as though the mere fact that he said it makes it authoritative.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    ...Sure he would. Tsukiko would have been "better off" if, in her last few seconds of life, she had convinced herself that being eaten by wights was what she always wanted. Xykon would be "better off" if he convinced himself that no longer having a sense of taste is the goal he should always have been working toward, not having power.

    What people would be better off believing is immaterial to what they actually do believe. Each individual reader must decide whether Tarquin's claim that he'll take it philosophically if/when he dies is believable or not. Without waving it around as though the mere fact that he said it makes it authoritative.
    Conviction itself can only go so far. In theory anybody can believe in anything, but most of the time such convicion would break the character. However, Tarquin is one of the most genre-savvy characters in the comics, he designs Evil Ovelord handbooks and knows rules of drama. It is perfectly appropriate for him to construct and maintain the viewpoint he expressed to Elan.

    One can, of course, dismiss it as basically any other general assumptions of the comics: like that Belkar will die before the end of the year, V is going to be posessed by the IFCC at some point etc. But I personally accept what appears the most probable scenario.
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    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Isn't that funny? I also accept what appears to be the most probable scenario--only when I look at what that is, I see Tarquin going, "Argh, no!" when he's defeated.

    Tarquin's word just doesn't carry the authority you're trying to have it carry. Not because he's genre savvy, not because the philosophy he expressed is beneficial to him if he holds it, certainly not because he had no obvious immediate benefits from expressing it, and not for any other reason you're going to come up with either.
    Like "I am totally dead now; oh man, this sucks so much, despite I lived the life I wanted for 99% of my lifespan and I was going to die in 20 years, tops, anyway." Doesn't sound like him
    No. Because it sounds like a classic straw man.

    What does sound like Tarquin is, "Argh, I CAN'T LOSE! NOO!" Tarquin is the man who taught Nale to seek petty revenge for quasi-imagined slights; he was mystified that Elan wouldn't want terrible revenge on anyone who dared to defeat him. The fact that he's not quite as crazy as the son he raised to be a less-competent copy of himself doesn't mean his ego is less massive than your average black hole.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-09-28 at 10:24 AM.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Personally, I want Tarquin to fall in a climactic fashion. Probably with an extreme effort on the part of the order. The catch is that it will take place in the middle of nowhere, possibly at Girards gate, and as a he was anything but.
    Alternately, I think it would be interesting if he died saving Elan. He clearly demonstrates that he cares for his sons in his own way, and I think it would be very interesting if it is shown that he values his family over his own Legend.
    Either way will work for me, but I really want to see him fight Redcloak at some point. Both are really Genre Savvy villains, who are a hude threat.
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I still don't get why Tarquin draws so much hate from so many people.

    As I mentioned before in another discussion almost exactly like this one, I find it refresshing to read about a character who isn't constantly being defeated as much by their own mental or psychological issues as by their enemies. What's wrong with competency!?!


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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I personally hope that whatever happens to Tarquin involves Elan Dressing up as Tarquin and screwing up his whole tyranny scheme. Given how Elan has a tendency to hold the opposite of the touch of Midas (Where Midas touched everything and turned it to gold, which became his burden; Whatever Elan touches tends to go to hell, ultimately ushering his victory) I imagine under disguise of Tarquin, he could simply do what he does best and make his father lose everything that he worked so hard for (You know, probably with in a day's time).

    I don't know what exactly. but it still is a dream of mine.

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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Tarquin's word just doesn't carry the authority you're trying to have it carry.
    ...
    ... and not for any other reason you're going to come up with either.
    So you aren't going to take Tarquin's words for granted. OK. Whatever.

    Seems just wierd to me that you assume a man with a black hole sized Ego doesn't pamper it further by adopting No-Matter-What-Happens-I-Win ideology.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    So you aren't going to take Tarquin's words for granted. OK. Whatever.

    Seems just wierd to me that you assume a man with a black hole sized Ego doesn't pamper it further by adopting No-Matter-What-Happens-I-Win ideology.
    His ego demanded he say that. And possibly it demands that he believe it, I don't know. That doesn't mean he'll stick to it if/when he's actually losing.

    Let me give you two examples. One is from the actual comic but involves Start of Darkness spoilers. The other is hypothetical.
    Xykon said that it was better to be a brain in a jar than to let yourself die, and that if you die you're a loser.
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    However, this does not go with his actual behavior when he was alive. He was thinking about leaving a legacy after his death. With some of the most powerful magic in his world, he wasn't thinking about immortality at all. The only reason he ever became a lich, was because Redcloak suggested it as an alternative to living out his waning years in Lirian's prison.

    So why did he say it? Because his philosophy changed after his death? Maybe, but mainly because the point of what he was saying was to Score On Spliced-Vaarsuvius. If that involved saying things he believed, or things he didn't believe, not really the point.

    Now, the hypothetical. Suppose that Haerta ruled over a continent with an iron fist for a thousand years (assume she extended her lifespan, or even became a lich). Suppose, after those thousand years, she was slaughtered by a group of good-aligned adventurers who systematically destroyed every trace of her legacy. Suppose she got into an argument with Tarquin about which of them was a better tyrant, and she said, "My rule lasted for a thousand years!"

    Do you suppose Tarquin's response would be, "All right, you win"?

    I sure don't. No, he'd come up with some card to play. And maybe he'd come up with a card other than, "But you lost at the end, and I won't lose!" But I would not be at all surprised if that was the card he played.

    And that that contradicted what he told Elan?

    Irrelevant. Because the point of what he said to Elan was to demoralize Elan, which it proved very successful at. And the point of what he said to Haerta, similarly, would be to serve his ego--not to communicate anything genuine other than, "I, Tarquin, am superior."
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    2323mike's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    ...
    I see your point. You basically say Tarquin's Ego > Tarquin's Savviness, while I think it's the other way around.


    Because the point of what he said to Elan was to demoralize Elan, which it proved very successful at.
    Consider next-to-last panel of the strip with his speech. If Tarquin's intention was to mindscrew Elan, he would have his smug, triumphant expression there. But Tarquin appears to be mildly surprised instead, which implies Elan's fear and despair is not exactly what he expected.
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-09-29 at 05:58 AM.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

    Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Bulldog Psion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Honestly, who cares if he becomes a legend? Big deal. Dead is dead.
    Great avatar courtesy of Xander Morhaime. Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Stats of the Snarl:
    HP: Lots.
    Armor Class: Can't touch this.
    Saving Throws: Yes.
    Attack: Successful - undoes target.
    Challenge Rating: Too high.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    TheSummoner's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    Honestly, who cares if he becomes a legend? Big deal. Dead is dead.
    Which is the best way to look at it if you want to defeat him and call it a victory. If you play by Tarquin's rules, Tarquin wins regardless of outcome. Play by your own and don't give a second thought to whether or not Tarquin calls it a win or a lose.
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