Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 151 to 180 of 192
  1. Top - End - #151
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    2323mike's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Central Europe
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by WowWeird View Post
    Actually, reading through this thread, I start wondering- what does Elan's 'happy ending' mean in relation to Tarquin?

    I'm pretty sure Elan's outcome isn't entirely dependent on the fate of his father, but it'd probably have an impact.
    I agree. Tarquin has played and still plays a very important role in Elan's life and I don't think it is plausible for Elan to have his happy ending without Tarquin's case being solved if not in a happy manner, then at least in an acceptable one. In my opinion, at least two things are required:

    1. The suffering of the people in the Empire of Blood has to come to an end. The current regime will be altered or replaced.

    2. None of the numerous sadistic wishes regarding Tarquin's fate that were expressed in this and some other threads will be fulfilled.

    Elan does have a plan and since he is thrilled and happy about it I don't think it involves Tarquin's death, or much violence. But I have no idea what could it be, or whether it will actually work the way Elan intends.

    On that matter,

    And when a fictional story introduces an 'evil', it needs to describe the defeat of that 'evil'. (See the quote in my signature for another way of putting it.) In the case of OOTS: no matter what the cost - even if the whole of the OOTS dies tomorrow, the story isn't over until Xykon is beaten, even if that takes another 30 years and 10 more adventuring parties. If Rich chooses to 'end' the story before then, we'll all assume he's just setting us up for a part 2.

    And having introduced Tarquin, and gone out of his way to establish that he's 'evil', now Rich has set up the expectation that Tarquin has to be beaten as well. It's a subplot, and the main plot won't be fully resolved until the subplot is too. (There's also the 'redemption' option for Tarquin, but personally I'm writing that off as implausible.)
    Do I understand correctly that you believe Tarquin's subplot needs to end before Xykon's main plot? Because I don't think so and I expect that Tarquin will be dealt after Xykon, when the Gate threat is over and the remaining protagonists return to the desert to deal with unfinished business.

    Consider The Lord of the Rings - the main quest was finished and the big bad was completely defeated midway through the book 6. Yet the story continued for several chapters.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

    Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.

  2. Top - End - #152
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    I agree. Tarquin has played and still plays a very important role in Elan's life and I don't think it is plausible for Elan to have his happy ending without Tarquin's case being solved if not in a happy manner, then at least in an acceptable one.
    I disagree.

    Tarquin only came into Elan's life, what, a week ago? Few people would have thought "Reconciling with his father, the mysterious evil overlord who is probably Lord Tyrinar, is an essential component for This Story to have a happy ending for Elan" before Tarquin appeared on-panel (and not in a flashback). This Story--the story of the Order battling Xykon over the Gates--will have a happy ending, for Elan, at least. That doesn't mean there won't still be things about the world that make Elan sad when he thinks about them, such as what utter rat-bastards his father and brother turned out to be.

    Tarquin is Xykonishly evil. He is not going to suddenly have an epiphany and go, "Oh wow, that was really wrong of me to torture and kill all those people!" And Elan's sense of morality is not so shallow that he wouldn't recognize, e.g., sticking a Helm of Opposite Alignment on his father's head, as a poor substitute for him actually reforming. So there is no way Tarquin (and Nale) can possibly contribute to a happy ending for Elan. Whether he looks back on them and thinks, "It's so sad that we had to kill my father and brother," "It's so sad that my still-in-power father just raped his twentieth wife-by-torture," "It's so sad that my father's going to be in prison for the rest of his life," or, "It's so sad that I had to brainwash my father to make him Good," he is not going to think "It's happy that my father [anything]." It will always bother him that his father is/was a monster as it bothers him now when he remembers his mother crying about having lost a "nail." Such is the level of nuance of a story with a happy-but-not-Strawberry-Shortcake-level ending.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  3. Top - End - #153
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Do I understand correctly that you believe Tarquin's subplot needs to end before Xykon's main plot? Because I don't think so and I expect that Tarquin will be dealt after Xykon, when the Gate threat is over and the remaining protagonists return to the desert to deal with unfinished business.
    Not quite. Not necessarily.

    When Tarquin was first introduced, he was a completely new thread in the story, quite independent of Xykon and the gates. If that had remained the case, then - yes, I think he would have to be dealt with first, before Xykon.

    But now he's rapidly (and, I note, willingly) becoming entangled with Xykon's plotline. Which means that even if Xykon personally is beaten, his story won't be over until Tarquin is also defeated. About the only way Tarquin could avoid that fate at this stage is to go home right now and forget he ever heard of Xykon or the gates. But he's far too vain for that.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by warrl View Post
    "They didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes."
    "Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." - G K Chesterton


  4. Top - End - #154
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    2323mike's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Central Europe
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Few people would have thought "Reconciling with his father, the mysterious evil overlord who is probably Lord Tyrinar, is an essential component for This Story to have a happy ending for Elan" before Tarquin appeared on-panel (and not in a flashback). This Story--the story of the Order battling Xykon over the Gates--will have a happy ending, for Elan, at least.
    Honestly, "what would people have thought" is not really important. The unpredictability of the story is one of the things that tend to increase its quality. In-universe one has to wonder how would the Order find Windy Canyon without Tarquin. Out-universe I believe the Giant had always (at least from strip 68 or so) planned to address the difference between Elan's and Nale's upbringing, and that would have been rather difficult without Tarquin coming into play at least for a while. What the contemporary audience expected when the prophecy about happy ending was made doesn't matter at all.

    Tarquin is Xykonishly evil.
    What do you mean by "Xykonishly evil", exactly? Is it "completely devoid of any even remotely positive morale traits"? Or is it "Evil boss of a group of antagonists"? Or "beyond redemption"? Or "one who strives for the ultimate power at all costs"? Or something else? Sometimes it is hard to understand Buffyishly phrased statement.

    So there is no way Tarquin (and Nale) can possibly contribute to a happy ending for Elan.
    Imagine this (still quite plausible) scenario:

    The Order, the Guild and Team Evil battle at the Girard's Gate and it ends up being destroyed. Tarquin survives. Tarquin learns that Nale was deceiving him about Xykon and ritual, so he refuses to pursue the Gates and stays in the desert, ruling his Empire. The Order and the Team Evil start another race to the fifth Gate, where the Order finally destroy Xykon once and for all and end the Snarl menace to the world.

    At this point, as you suggested, it will be okay for Elan to have his happy ending - he'll settle down with Haley, raise a few kids and let "the story of the Order battling Xykon over the Gates" leave them for good. He'll think it's a sad thing about his father and brother, but Therkla's death was a sad thing too and life goes on. Do you think it may well end up this way?

    Because I think that would be a display of shallow morality on Elan's part.

    He is not going to leave the suffering continue. He will fight for the freedom of EoB citizens immediately after the fight for the very existence of the World is over. And he already has a plan, and he seems to be really keen and happy about it which, considering his Good (most Good mortal character of the story) nature, implies non-violent, or at least non-sadistic handling of his father (Elan did state it was only "sort of" a defeat).

    Now, Elan has grown quite a bit over the course of the story. He is still goofy, but not moldy-carrot-box-dumb-goofy anymore. If it turns out that his Super Top Secret Plan is utterly out of reality it will be underwhelming, to say the least. This will be his moment of triumph - his plan must be at least plausible (whether it will actually work the way it was intended to is an entirely different matter).

    That is why I believe it is possible for Tarquin to be redeemed, which puts him in a different light than Xykon, or Belkar.
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-11-15 at 01:31 PM.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

    Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.

  5. Top - End - #155
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    What do you mean by "Xykonishly evil", exactly? Is it "completely devoid of any even remotely positive morale traits"? Or is it "Evil boss of a group of antagonists"? Or "beyond redemption"? Or "one who strives for the ultimate power at all costs"? Or something else? Sometimes it is hard to understand Buffyishly phrased statement.
    I mean that he has no redeeming qualities. Which isn't quite the same as having no remotely positive moral traits--although considering how warped his concept of "love" in "I do happen to love you" is, that may also be true. He is not capable of understanding why there is anything wrong with his actions; when confronted with actual morality his reaction is, "Huh, that's weird...okay, kill the gladiators then, since my son unaccountably doesn't want to enjoy seeing them horribly tortured."
    Because I think that would be a display of shallow morality on Elan's part.
    Sure. There just isn't a way Tarquin can not be a deficit to any happy ending, although fortunately (...or unfortunately, depending on one's point of view) the happy ending question was only about This Story, not about Elan's life. You believe differently because (let me know if I'm paraphrasing you incorrectly) you consider the fact that Elan has a plan which he believes will deal with the problem of his father in some morally satisfying way to trump any in-comic evidence of Tarquin's irredeemability. I don't; I consider the in-comic evidence overwhelming and "Elan thinks he can do it" to carry little or no weight. We'll find out who is right when Rich's thumb is better.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-11-15 at 03:46 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  6. Top - End - #156
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    2323mike's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Central Europe
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I mean that he has no redeeming qualities. Which isn't quite the same as having no remotely positive moral traits--although considering how warped his concept of "love" in "I do happen to love you" is, that may also be true. He is not capable of understanding why there is anything wrong with his actions; when confronted with actual morality his reaction is, "Huh, that's weird...okay, kill the gladiators then, since my son unaccountably doesn't want to enjoy seeing them horribly tortured."
    I believe the example with the gladiators isn't the best one. From his position of a ruthless general, Tarquin had very limited options at that moment. He couldn't tolerate letting badly staged fight to continue (or, that Elan wasn't taking it well), but what could he do instead of giving order to kill them? Could he just send them back to the prison? That would make no sense, people would think him weak or becoming senile, Elan would think he could be easily swayed and Haley would immediately tried to exploit that. And given those gladiators would hate him anyway, even your average Affably Evil guy in his position would just pull the trigger.

    Consider strip 854 as a counterexample. After Malack gives him a piece of his mind, Tarquin does seem to realize he has crossed certain lines and apologises. Unless one dismisses that as a staged performance and faked sincerity, it gives a pretty good clue that Tarquin is perfectly capable of understanding when he does wrong - he just doesn't care, or doesn't want to backpedal, as long as it doesn't affect people he actually holds dear.

    In my opinion, Tarquin knows what is wrong with his actions, but since he went on the track of a villain and dictator and so on, he just plays it by the script. He is on that way because he wants to live life as a king and go down like a big damn legend. If somebody makes him realise that there are better ways to be remembered, or that his life could give him so much more if he took a different approach to it etc., he may get swayed. Or may not, but it's certainly worth a shot.

    Short story: I don't think the comic shows that Tarquin is irredeemable. So far.
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-11-15 at 03:49 PM.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

    Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.

  7. Top - End - #157
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    And when a fictional story introduces an 'evil', it needs to describe the defeat of that 'evil'. (See the quote in my signature for another way of putting it.) In the case of OOTS: no matter what the cost - even if the whole of the OOTS dies tomorrow, the story isn't over until Xykon is beaten, even if that takes another 30 years and 10 more adventuring parties. If Rich chooses to 'end' the story before then, we'll all assume he's just setting us up for a part 2.
    That is true, but ONLY because of convention. There's no reason a story couldn't end on the villain winning. After all, a story is also about its protagonists, and a lot of the time they're left alive at the end of a story, perhaps with a love interest and some regrets at the cost of victory and stuff like that, but the story leaves them alive.

    The finish line doesn't have to be drawn at a victory or loss or even any kind of ending at all - short stories are good for that, they often set up a premise and leave us to consider where it goes without doing all the work for us.

    So yeah, fiction ending with all the loose ends tied up, villain defeated or sealed in a can or whatever is very common, but it isn't mandatory, just incredibly common, so common that it's perceived as mandatory!

    My entire point this whole time has been that things can go ANY OTHER WAY and still be a satisfying story. Someone else mentioned Stephen King's IT as a great story in which it appeared the villain could win; Stephen King's Pet Sematary is a story in which the "villain" (granted, a nebulous intangible concept) DID win. And it was awesome.

    I think at this point we've said everything that can be said on the matter. It's been interesting, but let's drop it.

  8. Top - End - #158
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I'd say that OotS is one of those rare stories that could "pull off" a villain winning, given that the very concept of the story is that it's mimicking a roleplaying campaign. When the BBEG is just too powerful for the PCs and the PCs are unreasonable enough to choose a direct confrontation too early (relatively speaking) in the campaign, it can very well end up in TPK and that should be "acceptable" to the reader...

    By now, though, I have to admit I'm sure it'd be very unsatisfying to 99% of Rich's readership if the story ended like that (and it'd be contradicting the Oracle's prophecy about Elan's happy ending).

    But back then, say in the early #0100s, Rich's gag-a-day online campaign strip easily could've abruptly ended with everyone dying @ Xykon's throneroom.
    95 K1500 Z71 XCSB 6.5 4L80-E

  9. Top - End - #159
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe Seven View Post
    That is true, but ONLY because of convention.
    But no. "Convention," as you call it, exists for a reason. You said earlier that "people don't like change and have been raised on happy endings," effectively poisoning the well: Anyone who doesn't desire the villain to win lacks imagination.
    There's no reason a story couldn't end on the villain winning.
    You speak as though "what people enjoy reading" is not a reason, or at least not one that doesn't speak to how painfully "conventional" those people are if they happen to disagree with you.
    I think at this point we've said everything that can be said on the matter. It's been interesting, but let's drop it.
    When I see a post that goes, "Long reassertion of my position...now let's drop it," it always looks like that poster is trying to get in the last word.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-11-16 at 08:16 AM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  10. Top - End - #160
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    But no. "Convention," as you call it, exists for a reason. You said earlier that "people don't like change and have been raised on happy endings," effectively poisoning the well: Anyone who doesn't desire the villain to win lacks imagination.

    You speak as though "what people enjoy reading" is not a reason, or at least not one that doesn't speak to how painfully "conventional" those people are if they happen to disagree with you.

    When I see a post that goes, "Long reassertion of my position...now let's drop it," it always looks like that poster is trying to get in the last word.
    First point: you're inferring a lot of things that aren't there. I said people don't like change and have been raised on happy endings, you choose to infer "lack of imagination" from that, but I didn't say or intend it.

    Second point: "what people enjoy reading" is subjective and "people" as a collective term for every single person who enjoys reading fiction will never ALL agree on something. In this case, we don't all agree on villains necessarily having to be beaten, so acting like we do is ridiculous.

    Third point: after responding to Veti's post, the "let's drop it" part was because I am tired of the contention the discussing is causing. That is to say, I am tired of the contention YOU are causing. I've enjoyed the conversation with other posters but I am sick of your absolutism, antagonism and superior attitude. Maybe I should've just said instead that I'm going to put you on ignore because of those things. So as of now, I have.

    To the rest of you, thanks for a stimulating conversation.
    Last edited by Chloe Seven; 2012-11-16 at 11:07 AM.

  11. Top - End - #161
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Winter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    When I see a post that goes, "Long reassertion of my position...now let's drop it," it always looks like that poster is trying to get in the last word.
    Or if he's clinging to this last straw to prevent losing (or appearing to have lost).

    Divinity 2: Ego Draconis had a bad ending. It was nearly the worst possible ending in regard to the Good Guys. Just google what happened on the internet (the studio making the game received threats of murder, let alone countless bad words and even more critique) and tell me again there is "no good reason to make the heroes win".

    I thought that ending was awesome but I totally can understand it is usually not done.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

  12. Top - End - #162
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Or if he's clinging to this last straw to prevent losing (or appearing to have lost).
    I think a fundamental problem with this idea is that it implies two beliefs:

    (1) that this was some kind of debate rather than a conversation and;
    (2) that there can possibly be a winner and/or loser in a contest of purely subjective opinions such as tastes or preferences.

    If anyone here has been treating this as a competitive formal debate, I apologise that I had no interest in applying the rules of your particular debating club to my posts. I'm here on a gaming themed webcomic's forum for some light-hearted discussion, not to definitively prove now and forever that I am right about everything. This formerly casual discussion about tastes in fiction has become rather unpleasant (and everything has been said, so starting to become circular) and so, I stepped out.

    EDIT: also, not a he.
    Last edited by Chloe Seven; 2012-11-16 at 11:29 AM.

  13. Top - End - #163
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I WIN! WOOO!

    But seriously, I understand what Chole is saying. It's like when I say "Boy, for what it was, I actually enjoyed "X movie" ". and Then someone returns fire and says "You're an idiot! You LIKED THAT!?? Because so many other people hated it!"

    Yes... I liked that movie. No, I'm not an idiot. And I don't care what other people like because I enjoy what I enjoy.

    So there is no winning. Chloe would like to see something different happen then the rest of us and that's okay.

    (For the record... LOOOOOOVE Stephen King... do NOT like the Game of Thrones series even though a billion other people do.)

  14. Top - End - #164
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    ^ right.

    Off topic point of curiosity, a couple of people here and a few on other sites have misspelled my name "Chole", too often for it to be just a typo. Is this some American thing I don't get?

  15. Top - End - #165
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe Seven View Post
    Off topic point of curiosity, a couple of people here and a few on other sites have misspelled my name "Chole", too often for it to be just a typo. Is this some American thing I don't get?
    I think it's just more natural motion for to type. L and O are the same finger, following H on the same hand, and "h-o-l" flows easier becaues that finger ends up going "press down, move down, press down" instead of "press down, move up, press down."

    I'll bet if you launch an elaborate study of people with dvorak keyboards vs the traditional qwerty ones, you'll find the typo much less common. Though it's probably not worth that kind of trouble to you.

    Now if people start calling you "cholo", then there might actually be something to it.
    I don't actually play D&D. I do play:

    Magic: the Gathering Online (with FREE tournaments at Gatherling)
    DC Universe, my surprisingly good CoH replacement
    Planetside 2, MMO-meets-FPS (and the first shooter I've liked in ages).
    Simunomics - a massive multiplayer Business Simulation Game. Browser-based, free to play.

  16. Top - End - #166
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Winter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunnDancer View Post
    "You're an idiot! You LIKED THAT!?? Because so many other people hated it!"
    No, that is not what has happened.

    What happend is Chloe said s/he could not come up with reasons why good guys always win and cannot understand how people are always so lame to like it over and over again, while s/he enjoys Bad Endings.

    What did then happen were people pointed out various reasons why the state is as it is and that it is not only purely our socialization. In my case, I even defended a "bad" ending, but also pointed out why the company that made it will not repeat that exercise.

    There's a lot of valid reasons to have large audience fiction end "well", one of them is the reception of the customers, others are rotted in all the things pointed out above.

    None of that affects your position and as far as I have read, there was not a single reaction like the one you paraphrased (and to which Cloe agreed).
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

  17. Top - End - #167
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    What happend is Chloe said s/he could not come up with reasons why good guys always win and cannot understand how people are always so lame to like it over and over again, while s/he enjoys Bad Endings.
    I didn't say anything about people being "lame" to like it over and over again. You're inferring stuff that isn't there.
    None of that affects your position and as far as I have read, there was not a single reaction like the one you paraphrased (and to which Cloe agreed).
    He didn't even sort of imply anyone said that. He said what's happening here is LIKE when people say things like that, as in, it is rude and ridiculous to be so judgemental of peoples' tastes. I then posted "^ right", agreeing to that and the rest of the post.
    Last edited by Chloe Seven; 2012-11-17 at 07:12 AM.

  18. Top - End - #168
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    In Star Wars terms, Tarquin is much more like Palpatine, or at best Grand Moff Tarkin, than Vader- much viler, much more enthusiastic about atrocity (at least, onscreen).

    Hence a redemption story for him is less feasible.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  19. Top - End - #169
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Xykon reminds me more of Palpatine. Obsessed with immortality and power for power's sake.

    Tarquin = Tarkin - polite, affable, utterly merciless, dominates by force and threat of force, fond of gadgets (if you can call superweapons gadgets). Plus, their names!

    Redcloak = Vader - feigns servility to a powerful master he plans to overthrow in order to bring about a better society.

    Roy = Luke Skywalker - hero of the story, calm and analytical, on a quest given to him by a ghost.
    Last edited by Chloe Seven; 2012-11-17 at 01:46 PM.

  20. Top - End - #170
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Does that mean Tarquin talks with a British accent?

  21. Top - End - #171
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Winter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Does that mean Tarquin talks with a British accent?
    Yes, probably something european. Maybe british, maybe very slight french, maybe a bit german, maybe something more eastern - and in the show people keep bringing up he is played by Christoph Waltz. Now, would that not be awesome?
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

  22. Top - End - #172
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    No, that is not what has happened.
    ...

    None of that affects your position and as far as I have read, there was not a single reaction like the one you paraphrased (and to which Cloe agreed).
    Well that because I was pulling an example from my life. And towards the end there were more than a couple of people questioning her dislike of an obvious good guy win... I believe one person even said that she must not like 98% of all fiction, etc. etc. etc.

    But that's beside the point. My entire point was it's fine that she would like to see the villain win so there is no point to argue about it... different strokes for different folks and all that.

    Edit: Back to the ACTUAL topic... nah... still don't want to see him get BASHED in... but I do want to see him defeated. There are too many people like him in real life that already win.
    Last edited by GunnDancer; 2012-11-18 at 08:40 AM.

  23. Top - End - #173
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    grom the mighty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    20 floors below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Lightbulb Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    I don't think it is plausible for Elan to have his happy ending without Tarquin's case being solved if not in a happy manner, then at least in an acceptable one.
    I have a feeling that when Tarquin inevitably dies, it will completely revolve around drama, and theatricality.

    The scenario I have in mind, is tarquin finally realizing that Elan isn't the main protagonist in his own story line and having a breakdown, trying to kill Elan for being a character purely involved for comic effect and to inject some drama into his life.

    At this point Nale (who feels betrayed by Tarquin, after he favors Elan for some reason, probably since Nale has become something like a 'stale, repetitive recurring villain') will attack Tarquin and kill him in a sneak attack, and wind up dieing himself as a result of his own revenge, probably falling from a bridge/ledge into a canyon or other inevitable death. For added comedy, Tarquin will quote a film for dramatic effect, with Nale telling him that line has already been done before. Cue a scream of NOOOOOOO from Tarquin as they both fall to their death.
    I expect that Elan will be happy with this, as if anything, it glorifies Tarquin, giving him the death Elan feels is dramatically appropriate, and also would give Nale a death more theatrical than he deserves. I think Elan would see this as an 'acceptable death' as you put it.
    This will almost certainly be followed by Belkar/ Roy saying something hilarious.
    Also........
    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    I expect that Tarquin will be dealt after Xykon, when the Gate threat is over and the remaining protagonists return to the desert to deal with unfinished business.
    I think that Tarquin will die ON THE WAY to defeat Xykon, since he finally realizes that he's not the main villain of his son's campaign.....!!!! This could be one of the reasons he attacks Elan!!! I think that Tarquin and Nale have both featured very heavily in the comic recently, and that their story lines are just about ready to be wrapped up.
    So far Rich has done each part of the narrative in sections. For example 'the dungeon of Dorukan, the journey to Azure city, the battle and events IN Azure city, the party being split up, and now the desert/empire of blood section. So far, most major villains of the section they were part of have died at the end of it (Miko, that lord guy at sea)...
    It's all about to go down!!!

    P.S If I'm right about this, then i'm using this post as undeniable proof of my psychic ability
    'Aside from getting rescued what is it you do?'
    'I provide much needed sarcasm'
    Avatar by Kymme! PC of the D20

  24. Top - End - #174
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    It occurs to me that while Tarquin's priorities prior to his arrival in the story were to live as long as possible and gain as much power as possible it is entirely plausible that upon meeting Elan his goals have changed. I suspect that his defeat will not come at the point of a sword. Nor will it come from a revolution or any other such violent means. It will come from his favoured son looking him in the eyes and saying:

    : Dad, I feel sorry for you.

    And just walking away.

    He has displayed a desire to interact with Elan, to become a part of his life it appears to be part of his new agenda. If that's taken from him I doubt he'd handle it well. He might find that the thrill has gone out of tyranny and life loses it's purpose. (Insert a series of platitudes about T's life becoming pointless and him just walking into the desert one night after a glass of wine.)

  25. Top - End - #175
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dark Montreal
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I don't actually think that an unconditional victory on the OotS's part is the best possible ending. For one, I'm actually rooting for Redcloak. Undoubtedly evil though he is, the resolution of his character arc is the one I look forward to the most and while I have accepted to a certain degree that it cannot end happily, I hope it will at least satisfactorily.

    And while I love Tarquin, I do want to see him defeated. He's a lot less defensible that Redcloak, since he wants is personal power and glory at the expense of everyone else in the world. Redcloak at least strives to serve a greater purpose. How effectively, efficiently or sincerely, is up for debate.

  26. Top - End - #176
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Drakeburn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Longsaddle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    I actually believe that in another clash (and probably final) with the Order of the Stick, Tarquin is left with a choice to either kill Elan or Nale.

    For a parent, it is a really hard decision. It's one thing to have conflicts between two children, but it is really hard to participate in that conflict, knowing that you're going to have to make a difficult decision.

    But who knows how it'll turn out.

  27. Top - End - #177
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    grom the mighty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    20 floors below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakeburn View Post
    I actually believe that in another clash (and probably final) with the Order of the Stick, Tarquin is left with a choice to either kill Elan or Nale.

    For a parent, it is a really hard decision. It's one thing to have conflicts between two children, but it is really hard to participate in that conflict, knowing that you're going to have to make a difficult decision.

    But who knows how it'll turn out.
    You could be onto something here.... It could even be tarquin choosing choosing which one of them lives for some reason.

    It will be definitely be something as dramatic as possible, and I suspect Tarquin will make it that way on purpose since as well as power, theatricality is what governs his life, just as it does with Elan, only with Elan being influenced by good.
    Last edited by grom the mighty; 2012-11-19 at 03:51 PM.
    'Aside from getting rescued what is it you do?'
    'I provide much needed sarcasm'
    Avatar by Kymme! PC of the D20

  28. Top - End - #178
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Given that Tarquin was willing to let Malack kill Nale until he had a good reason not to I don't think he'd be that torn up over it.

  29. Top - End - #179
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    grom the mighty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    20 floors below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Given that Tarquin was willing to let Malack kill Nale until he had a good reason not to I don't think he'd be that torn up over it.
    But it would be DRAMATIC
    And wasn't that because he was disappointed with Nale?
    :O What if Tarquin realizing Elan isn't the main protagonist puts Elan and Nale on equal terms?!?!?!
    Now THAT would be dramatic!
    the gate is about to explode, only Tarquin can save one of them... and he saves Elan? OR sacrifices himself?????
    I've just blown my own mind, and none of this is probably going to happen
    'Aside from getting rescued what is it you do?'
    'I provide much needed sarcasm'
    Avatar by Kymme! PC of the D20

  30. Top - End - #180
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    And wasn't that because he was disappointed with Nale?
    I realise this is open to interpretation, but - no. I think it was because he's a narcissist who literally doesn't give a rat's backside about the life or death of any other being on earth, except in so far as it administers directly to his personal comfort.

    If Tarquin were 'forced' to kill Elan[1], then I think he'd express a momentary pang of regret. I doubt he'd actually feel it, but he'd pretend to, because that makes his 'decision' more momentous and makes him personally look tougher in the eyes of everyone who witnesses the act.

    So I'm pretty sure that any scenario that depends on Tarquin's love for his sons, or anyone else, is not going to happen.


    [1] 'Forced' in the same sense as someone upthread argued that he was virtually 'forced' to order the deaths of Enor and Gannji - that is to say, the calculation of the moment makes him think that he 'needs' to do it in order to look tough.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by warrl View Post
    "They didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes."
    "Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." - G K Chesterton


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •