League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

[TechnOkami]

Vayne's range is too short not to have armour runes. She already has trouble laning, don't gimp it more by not taking armour.

hm... what if you keep her armor seals and have everything else AD?

[Eldariel]

hm... what if you keep her armor seals and have everything else AD?

That's perfectly fine.

[Dada]

Well, a full set of blue ad runes gives you ~2.5 ad. At that point, why even bother? Just get ad reds, ad quints, and the flat damage and minion damage masteries at tier 1 in the offense tree. That will give you ~23 bonus ad for last hitting.

[TechnOkami]

That's perfectly fine.

Swag.

Beware, once I acquire Vayne (or when she's free), TechnO's coming to bot lane.

[ex cathedra]

Alternatively, load up some 1v0 custom games and actually learn to last hit. I wouldn't recommend playing Vayne at all to anyone, but if you're going to lane her I would suggest that you take MR blues. Otherwise, Ez/Corki/Sona will just demolish you in lane. Just sit in bot lane for 10 minutes at a time and focus on getting X amount of CS.

[TechnOkami]

Alternatively, load up some 1v0 custom games and actually learn to last hit.

Eh... I could, but wouldn't it be more productive to learn how to last hit on real games where there's an actual threat of bot lane champions to harass and deny you? I mean, that's always what I try to do, just because I think it's more developmental of different skills which all interplay with each other.

Also: out of all the AD carries, Vayne is the one I like. I liked pre-change Twitch and pre-change Corki, and Ezreal feels cheap to me, so honestly, w/e. I learn who I want to learn.

[Leona]

I decided to do my 10 placement matches to see roundabouts what Elo I was, and it turned out to be 1450ish after a small sample size. I was happy with that and stopped doing ranked for so long that it decayed down to 1400. Then Riot was like, hey, 1500's get Janna for free, and a skin. I don't have her yet so I decided to wade back into ranked and so far I've bounced from 1400 --> 1440 --> 1402 -->1441 so I guess that's cool. Anyways, I've had a lot of luck with aggressive Sona (dat flash + Q + passive first blood), but I was wondering if anyone had any tips to hone my skillz? I normally go 4w/1p/ManaR to start, into Philo/HoG. From there I either Kage's or Boots. Also which boots? I like the MPen and Mercs. My final build is usually boots/shurelia's/aegis/some AP/maybe a zeke's/wards.

[NineThePuma]

I'd ask a friend (or, perhaps, multiple friends) to play the opposing side, rather than a real game, where you could damage the enjoyment of others by being a poor farmer.

I mean, AFAIK Vayne is horribad and needs her full build to even operate properly in her role as a carry, and having a Vayne playing on my team that wasn't just a regular vayne, but a newbie vayne practicing last hits?

I'd be irritated, to say the least. (I am genuinely alright with people who aren't doing awesome, but having a player admit that he was basically using my game to practice is... yeah, I'm not gonna bother explaining further.)

EDIT: I've opted to explain further.

Coming into my game and using it as practice shows a massive amount of disrespect. You might not be laning with me, you might not even be on my team, but if you're not bringing your A Game to face me, then that means you either think I'm not a threat, or you don't think I'm worthy of seeing it. I mean, even if I'm not on my A game, saying that you're only coming to my game to practice means that you aren't taking me or anyone else in the game seriously.

[Mephit]

Eh... I could, but wouldn't it be more productive to learn how to last hit on real games where there's an actual threat of bot lane champions to harass and deny you? I mean, that's always what I try to do, just because I think it's more developmental of different skills which all interplay with each other.

If you say you're just bad at last hitting, practicing on your own certainly helps. You can get familiar with the lane mechanics (like when to go for a cs) after you never miss a cs on your own.

Doublelift, one of the best Vayne players in the world, just warms up on his own in a custom game before he scrims and plays in tournaments. He plays to 10 minutes and tries to get perfect cs a few times.

The first thing I do when I want to pick a new champion is play him on a custom game and last hit on my own with him.

[Psyborg]

I've played A LOT of Vayne; she's my favorite champion in the League. I am decidedly not a high-ELO player, though, so if anything I say disagrees with anyone else in the thread, they're probably right.

Spoilered for length:

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• I'd always run magic resistance glyphs on Vayne, especially with the recent dominance of Corki and Ezreal and Vayne's generally high priority for enemy assassins.
  Flat or scaling depends on the matchup; Corki/Ez/Trist/AD Kennen/possibly Varus demands flat, but scaling ones are much stronger lategame. If you're playing Vayne at all, you're playing for lategame, so go with scaling if you think you can possibly get away with it.
  
• Actually, never pick Vayne into an Ezreal pick if you can possibly help it; Vayne players are used to having less range and poke, but throwing superior mobility and an attack-speed debuff on top of it is just too much.
  The only other carry you never, ever want to pick Vayne against is Caitlin. You don't see her as much any more, but if she knows how to play, you just...lose.
  As far as non-carries...don't pick Vayne against: Malphite, Nunu, possibly Gragas (you're too attackspeed-dependent), Karthus, Vladimir (you're too short-ranged to attack them safely), or poke teams in general.
  
• Do pick Vayne against tank/bruiser-heavy teams; there are few feelings better than playing Vayne in a blind pick normals with friends and realizing the other team went for a five-tank troll team.
  Do pick Vayne when your team has strong initiation (Amumu, Malphite, etc) for you to follow up on.
  
• Vayne has a fairly good lane against Graves; while you still lose to him given equally perfect play and no jungler interference, you do have some advantages against him:
  -Tumble = never getting hit by all three pellets of Buckshot, and if you're careful and/or lucky, you can often dodge it entirely.
  -Tumble is also really handy for getting out of Smoke Bomb, as the distance it moves you is unaffected by slows.
  -Finally, Silver Bolts is quite helpful in cutting through his passive and obscene base armor (though I still wouldn't max it over Q outside of edge-case circumstances like Vayne/Nunu versus Graves/Taric).
  
• I haven't played Vayne versus Corki a lot; I expect Vayne loses lane horribly due to Corki's excellent burst with Phosphorus Bomb, but since Corki's passive no longer scales with crits, and he's likely to get a Trinity Force, you can confidently expect to outscale him if you can keep from getting shut down in farm.
  
• Best supports:
  -Aggressive play: Alistar, Taric. I don't recommend Leona or Blitzcrank in general, as they're very all-in and Vayne's not bursty enough to capitalize on their initiations consistently. Alistar and Taric have a lot more to offer in terms of protecting Vayne, while still giving options for initiating aggressive play.
  Note: Blitzcrank is still the best, most OP champion in the game. He's never wrong.
  -Defensive play: Alistar, Janna. Taric specifically against Graves and Draven.
  -Pure lategame: Nunu. Blood Boil on Vayne is an unholy terror. Can also be good for aggressive lane play against non-blink/dash carries.
  -A general note: Ask your support to get Zeke's Herald. Consider asking your jungler to get Aegis so your support can get Zeke's earlier. You're the queen of attack-speed scaling.
  
• Default runes are AD/flat Armor/choice of MRes/AD; default masteries are 21/9/0; this is only one point different, but go for it if you're not confident of your last-hitting abilities.
• If you're confident of making it to lategame, take movespeed quintessences and spec 21/1/8, grabbing the Cleanse mastery and four points in Swiftness. Mobility is incredibly good on Vayne, and even with the token buff in the recent hotfix, she's lost close to a hundred chasing movespeed (pre-diminishing-returns) since her release between nerfs to her base, her passive, her ult, and Phantom Dancer.
• Default summoners are Flash/Cleanse. Consider Flash/Exhaust only if no one else on your team has an exhaust. Consider Flash/Ignite only if no one else on your team has an ignite and you're facing Mundo/Swain/Vlad/AP Soraka/similar. Consider Flash/Ghost against low-CC teams. In all cases, make sure you adjust your masteries accordingly.
  
• The usual build order for major items on Vayne is Bloodthirster > Phantom Dancer > Infinity Edge or Last Whisper, with a defensive item thrown in for good measure. IE first is OK if fed (really, if there's a single carry it's BAD on I've yet to hear it), but generally the lifesteal helps you stay alive and the cheaper BT means an earlier PD compared to IE-first build orders.
  Full build is typically IE/PD/BT/LW/defense or IE/PDx2/BT/defense.
• I'm not generally a fan of Last Whisper on Vayne. Once you have IE, a second Phantom Dancer is approximately as effective as a Last Whisper for killing tanks, and substantially more so for killing squishies. For Vayne, this is even more true, due to her insatiable lust for attack and movement speed. It does have its place, of course, against things like 400-armor Malphite/Rammus, or anyone with Thornmail (where the second PD would just mean killing yourself faster).
  You can also get Last Whisper if you have, say...BT/PD/negatron and you need armor pen now.
  
• On defensive items: QSS is cheap and good; Banshee's is mandatory vs. Blitzcrank, Singed, and LeBlanc. You get Guardian Angel for the dual resistances, not for the extra life; the amount of health you come back with is so trivially tiny that you're basically dead anyway unless your teammates have managed to win the fight in your absence.
  
  I've also had a lot of success with Vayne building BT > PD > Warmog's; it's an excellent way to capitalize on getting fed early and allow you to continue to be insanely aggressive through midgame without getting bursted down.
  
  Force of Nature has its place, but only rarely. Basically, if you find yourself having to chase Singed, it can't be beat. (Not chasing him at all is preferable, however.) In the game against the five-tank team that I mentioned earlier (one of whom was Singed, actually), I ended up building Infinity Edge, Last Whisper, double Phantom Dancer, double Force of Nature; but I had a Nunu to make up for my lack of boots and a Soraka with Zeke's to cover my lack of lifesteal.
  
  If you're facing Mordekaiser, get QSS. Get QSS. Get QSS. Use it for nothing else (that's what you have Cleanse for!). If you get ghosted after earlygame, EVER, you will lose, barring improbable heroics on the part of your teammates.
  
• Final disclaimer: Despite my repeated harping on the "get attack speed" theme, I do not condone building PD first on Vayne. It's less bad on you than almost any other carry (exception: Kog'maw, who it's actually good on); you have an AD steroid in your ult, and maxing W first is reasonable against Taric/Graves or similar tanky lanes. It's still less generally useful than early AD and lifesteal, assuming proper use of Tumble as an auto-attack-reset.

EDIT: Oh, and also: Those people telling you Vayne is bad? Are entirely right. She's still incredibly fun to play, with more mechanical depth than most carries, and those games that do go well will give you a high like no other, but don't expect to be generally successful with her. Heck, as nerfed as she is, I don't even expect Doublelift to be generally successful with her.

[Joran]

I'd ask a friend (or, perhaps, multiple friends) to play the opposing side, rather than a real game, where you could damage the enjoyment of others by being a poor farmer.

I mean, AFAIK Vayne is horribad and needs her full build to even operate properly in her role as a carry, and having a Vayne playing on my team that wasn't just a regular vayne, but a newbie vayne practicing last hits?

I'd be irritated, to say the least. (I am genuinely alright with people who aren't doing awesome, but having a player admit that he was basically using my game to practice is... yeah, I'm not gonna bother explaining further.)

EDIT: I've opted to explain further.

Coming into my game and using it as practice shows a massive amount of disrespect. You might not be laning with me, you might not even be on my team, but if you're not bringing your A Game to face me, then that means you either think I'm not a threat, or you don't think I'm worthy of seeing it. I mean, even if I'm not on my A game, saying that you're only coming to my game to practice means that you aren't taking me or anyone else in the game seriously.

I'd disagree with you for Normals. There will always be that "trial by fire" notion for bringing a character for the first time into Normals. You can kind of prepare yourself by reading guides, playing bot games, but at some point you have to throw yourself into the deep end of the pool and play against an opponent. Sometimes it works swimmingly, like my games with Darius. Sometimes it works terribly. Normals are essentially practice games for Ranked.

For Ranked, absolutely, agree with you there, but again, there will always be the "Well, it worked great in Normals, holy crap, it doesn't work well in Ranked."

[NineThePuma]

It has to do with tone to me.

Do use a sports analogy, making a basket ball team and sending them out for the first time after lots of practice and scrimmages is completely different from grabbing five guys off the street and submitting them into a tournament/

[Eldariel]

Vayne is a high skill cap champion. If played to near her skill cap, she's pretty good. Some top players are of the opinion that she's currently outshined by the longer range ADs and CLG doesn't allow Doublelift to play her as much as DL would want to, but DL still performs well with Vayne whenever he does play her so there's that.

Basically, a poorly played Vayne is very unimpressive all things considered but played well, the short stealth, Condemn & constant repositioning and relatively high speed allow her to be very efficient at medium range, especially when run with Cleanse.


She's also one of my favorite AD carries (behind Sivir, Kog'Maw, Draven and Ezreal). While I'm no Doublelift, I can pull my part and then some with him. She's a lot of fun to play specifically because of all the micro opportunities she provides.

[ex cathedra]

More than just having a high skill cap, Vayne also has a high skill floor. Honestly, i never want to see a Vayne on my team. Even if my Vayne has the mechanics to actually play her, which they often won't, i'd still rather them play an easy champion who lanes well. That's why the Corki/Graves/Ez fad exists. They're easy, they're mobile, they're safe, they're veratile, and they're strong at every stage of the game.

[Godskook]

hm... what if you keep her armor seals and have everything else AD?

The AD glyphs are the worst AD runes of the bunch, while supports all deal a ton of magic damage.

You're trading 2.52 AD for 12.06 flat or 1.35/level MR. Really not worth it, imho. Especially on Vayne, who's going to be eating some harass as the game goes on.

It has to do with tone to me.

Do use a sports analogy, making a basket ball team and sending them out for the first time after lots of practice and scrimmages is completely different from grabbing five guys off the street and submitting them into a tournament/

Except Normals aren't the tournament.

Normals are that hoop at the end of the block that everyone plays at, and is the only place in the 'hood where you can get a game with real people.

Sure, you can toss hoops in your driveway, but that'll never be the same. So when I practice, I go to where there's other people to practice against and with.

[NineThePuma]

Different strokes for different blokes I guess.

I certainly never bother with Ranked.

EDIT: To clarify what I mean, at my skill level I get TONS of Try Hards and douche bags who are just "RAWRGLEFRAGGLE, WE NOT WINNING, RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE" So, to me, the comparison of shooting hoops with some people in the local park or whatever isn't the same. It'd be, like, the Pre Season Games or something, serious, but doesn't really matter in the long run.


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Dear god, this jungle nunu was awesome. We invade at level one, and then he feeds me every blue, and while I can't speak for my whole team, he felt to me like a global presence, putting pressure everywhere, and having great team fight pressure. I might have ended the game with the most kills, but HE carried the team to victory.

[Joran]

Different strokes for different blokes I guess.

I certainly never bother with Ranked.

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Dear god, this jungle nunu was awesome. We invade at level one, and then he feeds me every blue, and while I can't speak for my whole team, he felt to me like a global presence, putting pressure everywhere, and having great team fight pressure. I might have ended the game with the most kills, but HE carried the team to victory.

Up until recently, I didn't bother with Ranked either. I've been playing this game since Blind Pick was the only game mode available, so Normals were my "tryhard" for a long time.

Partially because we've had better attendance so it's easier to get 5 good players on, and partially because I've been watching a lot of competitive LoL, I've jumped into Ranked. My solo queue experiences have not been stellar, but the 5-mans have been fun.

EDIT: To clarify what I mean, at my skill level I get TONS of Try Hards and douche bags who are just "RAWRGLEFRAGGLE, WE NOT WINNING, RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE" So, to me, the comparison of shooting hoops with some people in the local park or whatever isn't the same. It'd be, like, the Pre Season Games or something, serious, but doesn't really matter in the long run.

Oh, it's much worse in solo queue Ranked, believe me. I've played 12 games in the past week or so and all but one game has featured at least one leaver and requests to report another player for "unskilled". Picks very rarely go smoothly. The one game that wasn't marred by rage was populated by a Rioter.

[ex cathedra]

Practicing is one thing, but being unable to last hit competently is akin to never having played basketball. Using normals to get better is fine, but if you don't understand the fundamentals the experience isn't going to be good for anyone involved. Worry about last hitting under pressure after you actually learn to last hit in the first place.

Also, using AD seals/glyphs instead of Armor/MR... it's like buying crutches that break your arms.

[Joran]

Practicing is one thing, but being unable to last hit competently is akin to never having played basketball. Using normals to get better is fine, but if you don't understand the fundamentals the experience isn't going to be good for anyone involved. Worry about last hitting under pressure after you actually learn to last hit in the first place.

Elo should put you in your place though, so you're playing against other people at your basic skill level.

I can last hit okay, but I'm by no means great, but in the Normals I play, there isn't much of a disparity. It's not like I'm up against pro players who aren't missing any cs and have 200 cs at 20 when I'm at 100 cs. You'll eventually find your level and as you improve, you should move up.

[NineThePuma]

Ah, Joran, I think you missed the point that we've been trying to make, my terrible sports analogy aside.

@Ranked:

TBH, most of my friends invest far far FAR more time into this than I do, and as such tend to be of a higher skill level. I genuinely believe I could get to about their level, but when they have more -wins- than I have -games played- I tend to be a bit intimidated.

I genuinely seem to be friends with people who are either above my skill level, or distinctly below it.

I'm confident in my abilities as a top, but my other roles are somewhat lack luster, in no small part because I don't have the runepages to maintain more than my Garen and EveryBruiserButGaren rune sets.

[Dada]

Eh... I could, but wouldn't it be more productive to learn how to last hit on real games where there's an actual threat of bot lane champions to harass and deny you? I mean, that's always what I try to do, just because I think it's more developmental of different skills which all interplay with each other.

Eventually yes. However, if your last hitting is so abyssal as you seem to imply, I really recommend you doing the bot game practice. I did this myself a year or so ago, just a single game or two as often as possible, but the results started showing.

In most endeavours, you will want to focus on practising and mastering simple tasks before putting it all together, no matter if it is building drones in Starcraft II or biking in the school yard with training wheels before heading out into the traffic. Day[9] emphasizes this in his Newbie Tuesday videos (improving one issue at a time).

Basically, in a real game there are too many other factors which distract you from getting the last hitting down, and these factors also makes it very hard to benchmark yourself, since your cs will depend heavily on the way the game plays out.

[NineThePuma]

You know, I can't tell if this is backwards, or if the images here are mislabeled.

DEPENDING ON WHICH IT IS, I might either be around 1100 ELO, or I might be at, like 900. Can't tell which.

[Joran]

Ah, Joran, I think you missed the point that we've been trying to make, my terrible sports analogy aside.

@Ranked:

TBH, most of my friends invest far far FAR more time into this than I do, and as such tend to be of a higher skill level. I genuinely believe I could get to about their level, but when they have more -wins- than I have -games played- I tend to be a bit intimidated.

I genuinely seem to be friends with people who are either above my skill level, or distinctly below it.

I'm confident in my abilities as a top, but my other roles are somewhat lack luster, in no small part because I don't have the runepages to maintain more than my Garen and EveryBruiserButGaren rune sets.

Ah okay. We have a friend who picked up the game after we did and he's in the same boat. We play Normals with him and some scrimmages but we don't bring him into Ranked. It does suck and he doesn't have the time to play outside of the structured games we play.

Question: for the Season 2 rewards does every member of your team get it? For instance, my friend is on our Ranked team but hasn't played any games with us. Does he get the nifty Janna skin if we make Gold?

[ex cathedra]

Elo should put you in your place though, so you're playing against other people at your basic skill level.

I can last hit okay, but I'm by no means great, but in the Normals I play, there isn't much of a disparity. It's not like I'm up against pro players who aren't missing any cs and have 200 cs at 20 when I'm at 100 cs. You'll eventually find your level and as you improve, you should move up.

The matchmaking system can only work so well, though, and that solution hardly works at all when you queue up with players met via mumble, as many people here often do.

[Eurus]

Man, have I been seeing a lot of Miss Fortune lately or is it just confirmation bias? I actually rather like MF myself, but she seems oddly flavor-of-the-month lately. Maybe I'll try to practice more with Tristana again...

[Joran]

Man, have I been seeing a lot of Miss Fortune lately or is it just confirmation bias? I actually rather like MF myself, but she seems oddly flavor-of-the-month lately. Maybe I'll try to practice more with Tristana again...

I haven't seen any MFs recently in-game, though I watch Ms Pudding's stream and she mains MF.

[JKTrickster]

Hey guys! So I'm playing Jax recently and he's pretty fun!

I know that the trick to his burst (post level 6) is being able to Double AA and then Leap Strike + Empower to get that 3rd Attack and the Empower bonus all at once. I'm still working on it though and it's kind of hard to land sometimes.

Overall I find that Jax is a really offensive champion - if I don't harass my opponent enough and control the flow, I always seem to be at an disadvantage.

My question is how should I get sustain items on Jax?

Normally I want to rush a TriForce, but Bilgewater Cutlass gets me Lifesteal. When should I build this item? Or should I even build it at all?

I'm just asking for some nice Jax tips. I really like the champion after his latest remake.

[Godskook]

Normally I want to rush a TriForce, but Bilgewater Cutlass gets me Lifesteal. When should I build this item? Or should I even build it at all?

Vamp scepter grants 2/3rds of Bilgewater's lifesteal at less than 1/4 the cost. You really need not finish the cutlass just for the sustain if you really want the rushed triforce. The vamp scepter will work just fine.

[Reynard]

Hey guys! So I'm playing Jax recently and he's pretty fun!

I know that the trick to his burst (post level 6) is being able to Double AA and then Leap Strike + Empower to get that 3rd Attack and the Empower bonus all at once. I'm still working on it though and it's kind of hard to land sometimes.

Overall I find that Jax is a really offensive champion - if I don't harass my opponent enough and control the flow, I always seem to be at an disadvantage.

My question is how should I get sustain items on Jax?

Normally I want to rush a TriForce, but Bilgewater Cutlass gets me Lifesteal. When should I build this item? Or should I even build it at all?

I'm just asking for some nice Jax tips. I really like the champion after his latest remake.

How to build Jax:

Damage, then Tanky.

Honest to god, that's really all there is to it. You can even go Slightly Tanky (HoG)->Damage->More Tanky. It all depends on the enemy team, and Triforce, while amazing on Jax, isn't completely essential.

Do they have a lot slippery little so-and-sos that need to be caught and violated with a lamppost? You might consider geting Frozen Mallet instead of Triforce.

Are they nearly 100% magic damage? I've had luck with Boots/Gunblade/Revolver/Spirit Visage/Wit's End/Banshee's Veil.

100% AD, or at least those that matter are? Forget Gunblade, get a Bloodthirster. Randuin's Omen is super good, and so is Triforce if you're fed/carrying, Mallet if you're off-tanking/getting bursted.

My point is that Jax has one of those kits where he can build whatever items he feels like, and get away with it, as long as the core build items give him damage and/or tankiness.

[Murmaider]

I'm smurfing on NA now, and I must say that ping of 200 allows for a gameplay not half as bad as i expected. Horrible, horrible f2p champions this week though.

Can you add me to the list?

Summonername:Hellbooze

Server: EW and NA