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  1. - Top - End - #1291
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    The results sound like at least a bit of an improvement, but the transition is going to be 100% annoying for us primary junglers, since we're going to have re-learn *EVERYTHING*, including every jungler's normal routes and weaknesses.
    You don't love the process of learning?

    (This isn't sarcasm. I love the process of learning and relearning things.)
    Last edited by Volatar; 2012-10-16 at 03:13 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1292
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Volatar View Post
    You don't love the process of learning?

    (This isn't sarcasm. I love the process of learning and relearning things.)
    I love learning, that's why I strive to learn a large list of champions and be able to cover a good deal of roles. But there's a difference between learning and relearning. When you're learning, you're building on what you already know to be true. With relearning, you're taking what you already know, throwing it out, and then learning something else. Its backtracking, and its not just annoying because of that, but because you often times hit these moments when you forget what still needs to relearned and what doesn't.

    That said, we'll have to wait and see how sweeping these changes are to know how harsh the relearning curve is. And it will be nice to see some of the old-school junglers rise in popularity again.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I doubt the changes will be THAT big of a deal. The changes last time weren't, at least, they weren't initially. Eventually people have decided what works and what doesn't and we have the jungle we have now. Honestly, its only been this way for 2-3 months, and the remake was like 6 months ago. Even then, it only really, really matters at high elo and in the pro-scene. Stonewall was blogging a few weeks ago about how he's enjoyed Jungle Darius, not because its good, but because Darius is a really good pick if you want to stomp on players who aren't as skilled as you.

    From what Riot is saying, this is less of a remake and more of a tweak. Riot recognizes that the jungle evolving into "the bitch role" of league, so to speak, isn't fun. That's kinda what was happening. Riot wants people to have a reason to pick heroes like Riven and Nocturne again, Riot wants there to be a reason for certain Bruisers to build more than just straight tank (really, do you think that Riot intended for the standard Olaf Jungle build to be double gold/10 into full tank items? I don't think so).

  4. - Top - End - #1294
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    I doubt the changes will be THAT big of a deal. The changes last time weren't, at least, they weren't initially. Eventually people have decided what works and what doesn't and we have the jungle we have now. Honestly, its only been this way for 2-3 months, and the remake was like 6 months ago. Even then, it only really, really matters at high elo and in the pro-scene. Stonewall was blogging a few weeks ago about how he's enjoyed Jungle Darius, not because its good, but because Darius is a really good pick if you want to stomp on players who aren't as skilled as you.

    From what Riot is saying, this is less of a remake and more of a tweak. Riot recognizes that the jungle evolving into "the bitch role" of league, so to speak, isn't fun. That's kinda what was happening. Riot wants people to have a reason to pick heroes like Riven and Nocturne again, Riot wants there to be a reason for certain Bruisers to build more than just straight tank (really, do you think that Riot intended for the standard Olaf Jungle build to be double gold/10 into full tank items? I don't think so).
    It's not going to work. People won't magically start forgetting how to build a champion and go, gee, bloodthirster sounds great. No, they will continue to build Aegis because Aegis is what the team needs, and, and, because carry bruisers don't work. For a bruiser to do their job, they need to be able to survive in melee. It's not a jungle problem. It's a problem with how melee champions work. GG RIOT. >.<

    Edit: Nocturne is already like free Elo mang.
    Last edited by Mtg_player_zach; 2012-10-16 at 05:34 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1295
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    From what Riot is saying, this is less of a remake and more of a tweak. Riot recognizes that the jungle evolving into "the bitch role" of league, so to speak, isn't fun. That's kinda what was happening. Riot wants people to have a reason to pick heroes like Riven and Nocturne again, Riot wants there to be a reason for certain Bruisers to build more than just straight tank (really, do you think that Riot intended for the standard Olaf Jungle build to be double gold/10 into full tank items? I don't think so).
    Nocturne is legit. The only way they'd give people more of a reason to jungle Nocturne is by reverting the changes that made him less popular in the first place. 3 minute cooldown 2000 range rank 1 ult just looks really ****ing bad in the first place, so when you compare it to modern jungle Rengar...

    Still, though, Nocturne is a strong early duelist, is too fast to be denied by old counterjunglers, and ganks/initiates fairly well throughout the game. The jungle itself has nothing to do with his unpopularity; if anything, he's likely better now than he will be after the remake. We'll see.

    As far as Olaf goes, that's not the standard Olaf jungle build, it's the standard Olaf build. His incremental changes turned him into an AD caster. He wants 40% CDR, movespeed, and the ability to dive the enemy AD carry. He doesn't need damage. At 40% CDR point-blank axes don't have a cooldown and his E is pumping out 113 true damage per second. He builds health and it gives him free damage for axes; he has built-in armor/MR steroids and one of the few spellvamp steroids in the game.

    He may as well have been made for the Shurelya's/ROmen build.
    Last edited by ex cathedra; 2012-10-16 at 05:50 PM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    Still, though, Nocturne is a strong early duelist, is too fast to be denied by old counterjunglers, and ganks/initiates fairly well throughout the game. The jungle itself has nothing to do with his unpopularity; if anything, he's likely better now than he will be after the remake. We'll see.
    I was trying to make the point that carry-junglers are not popular because its hard to get carry-farm from the jungle. This was harder in the old jungle, but its effectively impossible now.

    As far as Olaf goes, that's not the standard Olaf jungle build, it's the standard Olaf build. His incremental changes turned him into an AD caster. He wants 40% CDR, movespeed, and the ability to dive the enemy AD carry. He doesn't need damage. At 40% CDR point-blank axes don't have a cooldown and his E is pumping out 113 true damage per second. He builds health and it gives him free damage for axes; he has built-in armor/MR steroids and one of the few spellvamp steroids in the game.
    I'm pretty sure that prior to the recent resurgence of Lane Olaf, which was followed by Nintendude popularizing Jungle Olaf... everyone built Wriggles, HoG, and then meta golemish. At least, that's what I remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtg_player_zach View Post
    It's not going to work. People won't magically start forgetting how to build a champion and go, gee, bloodthirster sounds great. No, they will continue to build Aegis because Aegis is what the team needs, and, and, because carry bruisers don't work. For a bruiser to do their job, they need to be able to survive in melee. It's not a jungle problem. It's a problem with how melee champions work. GG RIOT. >.<
    This isn't entirely true. Certain heroes can build damage and still do well. Jayce, Talon and Riven are rather good examples of at least more damage oriented champions. Irelia, Jax and many other heroes often build a Triforce first, and then build tanky. However, right now, its almost a rule that junglers have to build tanky. The most they can afford in terms of offensive items are things like Wriggles, Phage and MAYBE Wit's End/Hexdrinker. The most popular junglers at World's were heroes like Skarner, Shen, and Moakai almost all of which built full tank (I can't remember if the shen players did full tank or more bruiserish build).

    The thing about carry bruisers is currently true, but I'd also like to mention that Riot is attempting, yet again, to fix some "problems" with bruisers and with how top lane works by implementing some new items. We'll see what this turns out to be.

    Edit: Nocturne is already like free Elo mang.[/QUOTE]

  7. - Top - End - #1297
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Honestly the jungle is a mess. Sure right now most junglers can be the aura bitch and do fine, and making the jungle give more gold isn't going to fix that. It might fix some of the unintentional effects of the low gold jungle, such as the near extinction of low-gank, mid-late game impact junglers like Fiddle, Warwick, and Trynd. To solve the aura bitch problem, you need to tackle the aura items themselves. In all respects the item overhaul, especially the support items, will have a bigger impact on the junglers than making wolves hurt more and give more gold.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    What would happen say if...

    Camps deal different type of damage and take more damage from a certain type?

    Say wraiths are strong against AP and weak against AD, and deals AP damage.

    Wolves the other way around. Golems a mix of both.

    So that different junglers clears different camps and follows different paths.

    hmm... this is an incomplete idea, I need to think more about it........

    *also, spawning roaming neutral jungle creeps.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Alright random speculation time, what happens if they eliminate all aura items? I think Supports would probably end up buying stuff actually useful for themselves or tanky items.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    I'm pretty sure that prior to the recent resurgence of Lane Olaf, which was followed by Nintendude popularizing Jungle Olaf... everyone built Wriggles, HoG, and then meta golemish. At least, that's what I remember.
    When I was poking around Olaf back in the day, well before the jungle change, the build guides were all about Wriggle's, Phage, tanky items. The only difference with the new jungle is they've dropped the Wriggle's.

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    This isn't entirely true. Certain heroes can build damage and still do well. Jayce, Talon and Riven are rather good examples of at least more damage oriented champions. Irelia, Jax and many other heroes often build a Triforce first, and then build tanky. However, right now, its almost a rule that junglers have to build tanky. The most they can afford in terms of offensive items are things like Wriggles, Phage and MAYBE Wit's End/Hexdrinker. The most popular junglers at World's were heroes like Skarner, Shen, and Moakai almost all of which built full tank (I can't remember if the shen players did full tank or more bruiserish build).
    Let's be serious, though. Jayce, Talon, Riven, Irelia, and Jax are never going to be popular in the jungle. They will be even less popular when jungle gets harder because most of them don't sustain very well early.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Istari View Post
    Alright random speculation time, what happens if they eliminate all aura items? I think Supports would probably end up buying stuff actually useful for themselves or tanky items.
    Define that please, cause "Aura" is, imho, not a clearly distinguishable line.

    Are you counting Shurelya's? WotA? What about Frozen Heart and Abyssal? All four can be built with non-Aura goals in mind, and the last three aren't even seen on supports all that often, compared to other champions(Shurelya's is often seen on tops and junglers too).

    Do these items disappear, or do they just stop being Aura-like, turning into something more individually beneficial?
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I like things like Aegis and FH on ganky AP junglers like Ali. FH is needed for the CDR and armor. Aegis makes that difference during ganks. Shurelyas and ROmen are natural upgrades from GP10 items. If AP mid doesn't pick one up, I'd get an Abyssal too.

    I think S2 made too many "niche" junglers viable, which could be the reason why Riot is buffing it, not to mention the S2 Mastery changes that made jungling even easier (4 reduced dmg from creeps, up to 7 more AD vs creeps and 6 reflected damage). I've seen Janna jungle, Karma jungle, heck even Vayne jungle. I started learning the jungle as Fiddle in S1 and that was a pain. You have to get the timing exactly right or you would die to Big Blue. Blue is such a pussycat now.

    I don't know if the jungle change will eliminate that but I do very much hope to see the return of the roaming jungler. Despite getting assists, the roamer will fall behind in farm and levels compared to a farm all day jungler like Mundo or Shy.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I fear that tougher creeps and the possible resurgence of counter-jungling will destroy jungle Alistar... and that Riot won't mind.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Teron View Post
    I fear that tougher creeps and the possible resurgence of counter-jungling will destroy jungle Alistar... and that Riot won't mind.
    Yup. Seems they want the return of "specialised" junglers, which means no ganks pre-6 ... makes for pretty boring streams and tournaments if you ask me. I'm sure the teams from the Asian region have shown how fluid and action-packed LoL can be in its current state, compared to 50 min farm fests that the EU teams favour. Cheering for ward kills indeed.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I don't think they want to force only sustain/slow ganking junglers -- they just want them to be viable. At present, characters like Warwick are just poor picks. His big strength is sustain. He gives up clear speed and strong ganks outside his ult, and in return he gets to constantly be at almost full health. Except that pretty much EVERY jungler is always at high health, because the current jungle basically gives them sustain. I can jungle Kha'Zix with no sustain items past my starting 3 pots and only one level in W, and I have no issues with my health dropping.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Terribad View Post
    Yup. Seems they want the return of "specialised" junglers, which means no ganks pre-6 ... makes for pretty boring streams and tournaments if you ask me.
    1.They're not making it any worse than S1

    2.In S1, lvl 4 ganks were *NORMAL*, and that's when we saw the great rise of lvl 2 ganks, with the release of Jarvan and Lee Sin.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I'm a little worried about Rammus, since he already has an abysmal clear speed.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    I'm a little worried about Rammus, since he already has an abysmal clear speed.
    I'm amused that Nautilus is going to be EVEN SLOWER!
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    I'm pretty sure that prior to the recent resurgence of Lane Olaf, which was followed by Nintendude popularizing Jungle Olaf... everyone built Wriggles, HoG, and then meta golemish. At least, that's what I remember.
    I'm pretty sure that prior to people building IE/PD, people built Madred's Bloodrazor and Frozen Mallet on Kog'Maw. Builds change as people think more, theorycraft better and get less stuck in ruts. Heck, new perspectives are one of the big drivers of change, and the amount of skilled players nowadays is a big deal there. Heck, even Dyrus has said that he thinks InvertedComposer's Singed is basically better than his in terms of items, etc.

    This is even before I get into massive shifts in the gamestate, such as AD/Support bottom or Mobility Creep.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    I'm a little worried about Rammus, since he already has an abysmal clear speed.
    A stonewall 3:50 is not what I'd call Abysmal, man. Its not great, but its only 20s behind Udyr's 3:30 clear.

    Especially since part of the issue is in the warm up period(junglers who can't clear wolves before 1:55 have to spend more time waiting for it to respawn after wraiths), which is improved with lane help.

    'Course, he's been through a few things since the days when he could just stack HoG and get armor from it(*THAT* was OP).

    ------------------------

    In other news, that last game I played: Bot gets 2 kills within the first 4 minutes of the game. I know this, cause I'm doing my classic wolves>blue>red steal start, and the kill display is blocking my vision of my Morde getting gannked by WW in mid. I go to help, fighting a lvl 2 WW while Malz decides if he wants to run or help. I get WW low, and realize that I'm going to die in this fight if Malz is allowed to live any longer. I flash the wall from their jungle into river bush where he's hiding, picking him up as a kill. Behind me, WW runs to desperately keep this from being a 1-0 exchange, and he's succesful. Its a 2-0 exchange. Meanwhile, in top lane, Riven kills her lane partner, while bot picks up a 3rd kill before I have time to secure my own red buff. We're up 6-1 before the 5:00 mark, and I end game 3/1/5 to a surrender with them down to only 2 of their inhib turrets.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Istari View Post
    Alright random speculation time, what happens if they eliminate all aura items? I think Supports would probably end up buying stuff actually useful for themselves or tanky items.
    Nowadays everybody already builds Auras. Just about every bruiser will build an Aegis ('cause the personal defensive stats are worth over 2k alone), many mages will get Abyssal, some get WoTA, some toplaners carry Zeke's and so on. Really, the only role where you don't get auras almost ever is AD carry; so it would be a rather sweeping change but only on the very tiptop level.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    My roommate just leaned up and asked if I wanted him to ult. I asked, "What?" to make sure he was awake and he answered, "Do you want me to ult at level 1?" I told him to do what made him happy and he just groaned and fell asleep again.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Randomness follows.


    Gentleman Cho'Gath needs to be made into an entire theme line. Gracious Host Kha'Zix with a smoking jacket, Dandy Malzahar with a coat and powdered wig, and Debutant Kog'Maw.

    Also, we need to do "Team Zoidberg" at some point. Singed/Skarner/TF or Ahri or LeBlanc or AP Yi/Lulu/Draven
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Return of the spiderqueen?


    Not quite digging the new Kathus lore however.

    RE: Jungle Rammus.

    his biggest problem is a full clear requires him to back, which for a jungler that must snowball via ganks is a big, big problem.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by MCerberus View Post
    Gentleman Cho'Gath needs to be made into an entire theme line. Gracious Host Kha'Zix with a smoking jacket, Dandy Malzahar with a coat and powdered wig, and Debutant Kog'Maw.
    Yes.

    Ten yes.

    Also, we need to do "Team Zoidberg" at some point. Singed/Skarner/TF or Ahri or LeBlanc or AP Yi/Lulu/Draven
    Don't get this.

    Also grumble grumble why on the subject of new Karthus and Morde lore. Especially Karthus.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I'm not too grumbly on Morde's lore, but what was Karthus' lore before?

    Also: Dapper Voidlings with Tophats. That is all.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Is the young girl in Mord's lore an obvious reference to someone that I'm not catching?
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    He used to be a near immortal lich who lived in an area known as the howling marsh, one of the many areas on the world scarred by the rune wars enjoying his isolation as he murdered anyone who came to call and added them to his retinue of the undead. He immortalized all his victims by singing their laments to the empty swamp at night and volunteers for the league for unknown reasons

    ... A much better origin if you ask me.

    Mordekaiser has a lot of the mystery stripped out of the character with his new origin, though it is better than his second origin since it returns him to his original place of origin
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    •Fixed a bug where in rare instances Champions would not be able to autoattack
    Oh Mario, I think you'll be really happy to see this bug fix.
    My own webcomic. Idiosyncrasy.
    Paladin Academy: Chapter 2 Part 28

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Nov 2008

    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    here is a question, does TF's new art make PAC any easier?
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