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2012-09-21, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-22, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2012-09-22 at 03:28 PM.
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2012-09-22, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Or we could, y'know, just disagree, and it would not be a big deal.
In our own world, people often call tomatoes vegetables, even though most people are intimately familiar with tomatoes, and even though we have access to the best scientific research in history. Is it because people are dumb? No — it's just that language is flexible, and doesn't always reflect the best scientific consensus. Tomatoes are used more like veggies than fruits, most of the time, so people think of them as veggies.
In the same way, someone from a reptile-dominated land might call all sentient humanoid reptiles "lizardfolk", even though not all of them are lizard-based. Now, I don't think that's particularly likely, particularly since Malack doesn't include kobolds in that category; the simplest explanation is that he was referring to the specific D&D race "lizardfolk." Rich would have to lay some groundwork to make that sustainable. But is it possible? Absolutely. Language is extremely adaptable, and doesn't always reflect scientific reality.
(P.S. Snakes are more closely related to lizards than either are to dinosaurs, so by your logic saurials would be even more out of place as "lizardfolk" than yuan-ti. Which I think makes my point for me. )Last edited by jere7my; 2012-09-22 at 07:29 PM.
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2012-09-23, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2012-09-23 at 12:46 AM.
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2012-09-23, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Thank you — that's my point exactly! People think dinosaurs are related to lizards, because they look pretty similar, have four limbs, have Greek for "lizard" in their name, etc., but science tells us that lizards are much more closely related to snakes. (Google "reptile family tree", if you'd care to dispute that.) Even an educated person might group dinosaurs with lizards, despite the fact that snakes and lizards both spring from the same branch, and would make a more reasonable grouping. Science would put lizardfolk with yuan-ti before lizardfolk and saurials, but a lot of people would intuitively make the opposite choice.
If, as you point out, even scientists call dinosaurs "thunder lizards", despite the fact that they're only distantly related to lizards, then what's to stop someone calling yuan-ti, who are much more closely related to lizards, one of the "lizard folk"? Flexible language ftw!Last edited by jere7my; 2012-09-23 at 01:08 AM.
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2012-09-23, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Well if you want to get technical about it, Sauria is a suborder which includes snakes, crocodiles, dinosaurs, and birds as well as lizards. The fact is that all lizards ARE saurials, regardless of how closely lizards are related to dinosaurs.
But y'know, you're kinda starting to get on my nerves, so I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. Have fun holding onto the hope that Malack turns out to be a fiendish half-vampire yuan-ti or whatever weird theory you have. I'm bored now.
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2012-09-23, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Shouldn't they be called Reptile Folk then? They're all Reptiles after all. Despite your continued insistence that "Words can mean what ever they want"...they can't. Words have the meaning we prescribe to them. However, the word doesn't make the thing what we call it. The thing is always what it is and isn't what it's not.
A Yuan-Ti isn't a Lizard. It's not a Snake either. It's a snake like creature from D&D.
Lizardfolk are a separate species of totally unrelated creatures. No matter what we call them, they're a race in D&D.
As for your example of "Well, Redcloak has said Goblinkind to mean Hobgoblins -and- Goblins! So that means we can use the same logic for Lizardfolk and Yaun-Ti!" Well...no. Let us look at their stat blocks shall we? TO THE SRD!!!
Goblin
Hobgoblin
If you look at the very top, both of them are are Humanoid (Goblinoid). Meaning that they are both...wait for it....Goblins. So saying Goblinkind to cover both Hobgoblins and Goblins is apt.
Lets look at Lizardfolk and the Yuan-Ti shall we? YES LETS!
Lizardfolk
Yaun-Ti
So, Yuan-Ti are considered a no go for Wizards and aren't on their SRD. But the stat block of Traulsk indicates that Pure Blood Yuan-Ti are Monstrous Humanoids. Abominations are as you'd imagine... Aberrations. However, looking at the Lizardfolk entry....they're not monstrous humanoids. They're merely Humanoid (Reptilian). So....ya.
Yuan-Ti aren't considered even Reptilian in D&D. Thus, when Malak says he's a Lizardfolk he's either talking about
A. The race
B. Another species counted among the Lizardfolk.
Since Yuan-Ti aren't reptiles they cannot be Lizards. Malak is not a Yuan-Ti.
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2012-09-23, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Brazil
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
I'm pretty sure yuan-ti are copyrighted material so I doubt Rich is going to use them.
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2012-09-23, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Turku, Finland
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2012-09-23, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? It's a fruit. Do most people call it a fruit or a vegetable? Most people call it a vegetable.
Are snakes or dinosaurs more closely related to lizards? Snakes. Do people think of dinosaurs or snakes as being kin to lizards? Dinosaurs. Do people call dinosaurs "thunder lizards"? They do, and they don't call snakes "legless lizards" (which would be closer).
Are yuan-ti snake-people or lizard-people? They're snake-people. Would it be possible for someone's natural language to group yuan-ti with lizard-people? Yes indeed.
Words do have the meaning we give them, I agree. And we can give them meanings that do not reflect scientific reality, because language is flexible. (Speaking of flexible language...I don't think I ever said "Words can mean what ever they want", despite the quotes you put around it. )
The argument here seems to be that either biology or the D&D rules tell us that yuan-ti aren't related to lizardfolk. While that's true, we have examples in the real world of names that don't reflect science or "rules", because language doesn't always work like that. It surprises me that people are so resistant to the idea that someone's natural language in a D&D comic might make the same kind of "wrong" grouping.
In the Forgotten Realms, lizardfolk and yuan-ti and nagas and other reptilian races are collectively called "the scaled ones". Is it impossible — not unlikely, but impossible — that someone's language would use the term "lizard folk" instead of "the scaled ones"? Given that science is less advanced in the D&D world, and given that people call tomatoes vegetables in our own very advanced world, is it actually impossible?
That is a little silly-pants. Regardless of the technical rules classification, yuan-ti are clearly snake-people, and snakes are reptiles. And someone actually living in the D&D world wouldn't care about that sort of thing when they were coming up with names. They'd say "Hey, those things are both scaly people!" and come up with a group name for them, like "the scaled ones" or "lizard people" or "anthrosaurs". Heck, yuan-ti have so many forms people might think they were multiple species, or might think lizardfolk were just another form of yuan-ti.
But I agree that Malack probably isn't a yuan-ti.Last edited by jere7my; 2012-09-23 at 11:39 AM.
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2012-09-23, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Well, no...saurials are dinosaur-people. You jumped from the order Sauria to the race saurial. But if we follow your logic, snakes are "saurials" too, so it makes as much sense to group them (and yuan-ti) with lizards (and lizardfolk) as it does dinosaurs (and saurials).
No, Malack is pretty clearly a lizardfolk. Ciao!
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2012-09-23, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Doesn't matter what we call it. A tomato is a tomato regardless of labels.
Are snakes or dinosaurs more closely related to lizards? Snakes. Do people think of dinosaurs or snakes as being kin to lizards? Dinosaurs. Do people call dinosaurs "thunder lizards"? They do, and they don't call snakes "legless lizards" (which would be closer).
Are yuan-ti snake-people or lizard-people? They're snake-people. Would it be possible for someone's natural language to group yuan-ti with lizard-people? Yes indeed.
Words do have the meaning we give them, I agree. And we can give them meanings that do not reflect scientific reality, because language is flexible. (Speaking of flexible language...I don't think I ever said "Words can mean what ever they want", despite the quotes you put around it. )
The argument here seems to be that either biology or the D&D rules tell us that yuan-ti aren't related to lizardfolk. While that's true, we have examples in the real world of names that don't reflect science or "rules", because language doesn't always work like that. It surprises me that people are so resistant to the idea that someone's natural language in a D&D comic might make the same kind of "wrong" grouping.
In the Forgotten Realms, lizardfolk and yuan-ti and nagas and other reptilian races are collectively called "the scaled ones". Is it impossible — not unlikely, but impossible — that someone's language would use the term "lizard folk" instead of "the scaled ones"?
Given that science is less advanced in the D&D world, and given that people call tomatoes vegetables in our own very advanced world, is it actually impossible?
That is a little silly-pants. Regardless of the technical rules classification, yuan-ti are clearly snake-people, and snakes are reptiles.
And someone actually living in the D&D world wouldn't care about that sort of thing when they were coming up with names.
They'd say "Hey, those things are both scaly people!" and come up with a group name for them, like "the scaled ones" or "lizard people" or "anthrosaurs". Heck, yuan-ti have so many forms people might think they were multiple species, or might think lizardfolk were just another form of yuan-ti.Last edited by Tebryn; 2012-09-23 at 04:03 PM.
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2012-09-23, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- UK
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2012-09-23, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
That is true. But we're talking about what people (speficially Malack) call lizardfolk and yuan-ti and such. In other words, we're talking about language, not cladistics.
I think you quoted Killian Hawkeye, there, and attributed it to me.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Regardless of the technical classification of a D&D monster, residents of a D&D setting are free to name them whatever they like. Pegasi, perytons, and griffons might be completely unrelated, but the people of Waterdeep might decide to collectively call them "birdy-beasts". You keep bringing up the rules of D&D, which are irrelevant when we're talking about how Malack uses language, the same way the laws of science don't matter too much when people in the real world name things.
I think you're missing the point. We have one of the default published D&D settings that groups lizardfolk, yuan-ti, nagas, troglodytes, and so on into a single category. Given that we don't know what the equivalent case is in the OotS world, that's certainly one possible option.
What, that people frequently refer to tomatoes as vegetables? That's trivial to prove with a Google search. Go ahead and check. Tomatoes are legally classified as vegetables for regulatory purposes.
Apparently, yes, since I don't know what you're trying to say here.
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2012-09-23, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
No, just me being stupid.
Well, since we're making things up. Yuan-ti are known for being very vain and prideful. Any real Yuan-ti wouldn't refer to themselves as anything but a Yuan-ti. It's about language after all and since we've not seen a Yuan-ti we can assume they're no different than their D&D counter-part since Forgotten Realms also backs up this claim. Yuan-ti would never allow themselves to be grouped up with the lesser scaled races who were made to serve them or worship non-scaled Gods like Marduk either.
I think you quoted Killian Hawkeye, there, and attributed it to me.
I think you're missing the point. We have one of the default published D&D settings that groups lizardfolk, yuan-ti, nagas, troglodytes, and so on into a single category. Given that we don't know what the equivalent case is in the OotS world, that's certainly one possible option.
What, that people frequently refer to tomatoes as vegetables? That's trivial to prove with a Google search. Go ahead and check. Tomatoes are legally classified as vegetables for regulatory purposes.
Though I want to address your continued use of the "Tomato is a fruit or a vegetable" thing. Tomato's are botanically a fruit. The are the ovaries, together with its seeds, of a flowering plant. However, Culinary wise they are classified as a Vegetable. So both statements are correct. Hey man, it's just language.
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2012-09-23, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Also a possibility! I've never tried to say "Things are this way"; I'm just listing possibilities. That's another one. Well done!
Ah, I see. You quoted a portion of Killian's statement — not, as it happens, the portion I was agreeing with.
Well, in the Forgotten Realms they were all uplifted by a single progenitor race, so they are in fact all connected. But that's beside the point — we're talking about what's possible in language, not what is.
What you quoted contained two assertions — I wasn't sure which one you were referring to, since they both seem pretty obvious to me.
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks aside, published D&D worlds in general, and the OotS in particular, tend to fall in a medieval-to-renaissance tech level. There might be exceptions, but this seems like a weird nit to pick.
Exactly! That's pretty much exactly what I was saying. Science classifies them one way, but in usage they're classified another way. In the same way, the rules classify yuan-ti one way, but common usage is free to classify them another way. Thank you!Last edited by jere7my; 2012-09-23 at 06:44 PM.
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2012-09-24, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-24, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
For the record, this strip features lizardfolk, yuan-ti, and kobolds being collectively referred to as "reptilian humanoids".
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2012-09-24, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Maybe he's the MitD. Have we ever seen the two of them at the same place at the same time? Think about it.
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2012-09-25, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Centreville, VA
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-25, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
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2012-09-25, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Centreville, VA
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-25, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- The US of A
Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Durkon is the one who first calls Malak a lizard, and while Malak does refer to "us lizardfolk", I don't believe it's outside the realm of possibility that this is not exactly correct.
For example, I'm pretty sure the MM has an entry of half-yaun-ti who have snake-features but also legs and feet.
I admit it seems unlikely, but I think it's possible that perhaps Malak either didn't know he's yaun-ti (which might explain some of the health problems) or he does know, and is keeping it a secret. I recall that the fluff in the MM describes the Yaun-ti as being one of those hate-everyone races, who everyone is happy to hate right back.
Again, highly unlikely, but plausible IMO.Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-09-25 at 10:54 AM.
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2012-09-25, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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2012-09-25, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
I have no clue how you jumped to that conclusion when I wrote nothing of the sort.
That does SEEM to be the case....
I don't know what you mean by that.
Yes, that it exactly what I was getting at (except it seems pretty conclusive to me).Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2012-09-25 at 07:47 PM.
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2012-09-25, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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2012-09-26, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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- Hey, look! Squirrels!
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
How about a polymorphed Xykon? Consider:
- They both have pale white skin/bones
- Both of them have pink/red-colored eyes
- They haven't ever appeared in the same panel
- Soon after we cut away from Malack and Co. after Nale's capture, we see Xykon, who says he "just returned" from somewhere
- Not long after that, Xykon declares that he's heading back to the Western Continent
- Within fifteen pages of that declaration, we see Malack, who has mysteriously appeared out of nowhere...and he's on the Western Continent.
It's soimplausible, it just has to be true!Last edited by Emperordaniel; 2012-09-26 at 02:21 AM.
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2012-09-26, 03:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
I think Malack is Serini Toormuck. V's spell didn't find her beacuse she changed her name.
And gender.
And class.
And species.Last edited by Mike Havran; 2012-09-26 at 04:05 AM.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2012-09-26, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Centreville, VA
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-26, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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- Imagination Land
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Re: Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
Can't we just stop talking about yuan-ti, since that theory is obviously wrong? Sheesh