Fighter Class Features (Fix?)

[SSGoW]

The Fighter

"Damn it! I'm not a fighter, I'm The Fighter!

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|

1

|

2

|

0

|

0

|Veteran I, Fighter's Health I, FBF

2nd|

2

|

3

|

0

|

0

|Powerful Build I, FBF

3rd|

3

|

3

|

1

|

1

|Adrenaline I

4th|

4

|

4

|

1

|

1

|Unyielding Assault I, FBF

5th|

5

|

4

|

1

|

1

|Veteran II, Combat Zone (+5ft), FBF

6th|

6/1

|

5

|

2

|

2

| Experienced

7th|

7/2

|

5

|

2

|

2

|Powerful Build II, FBF

8th|

8/3

|

6

|

2

|

2

|FBF

9th|

9/4

|

6

|

3

|

3

|Unyielding Assault II,

10th|

10/5

|

7

|

3

|

3

|Veteran III, Combat Zone (+10ft), Fighter's Health II, FBF

11th|

11/6/1

|

7

|

3

|

3

|FBF

12th|

12/7/2

|

8

|

4

|

4

|Powerful Build III, Adrenaline II,

13th|

13/8/3

|

8

|

4

|

4

|FBF

14th|

14/9/4

|

9

|

4

|

4

|FBF

15th|

15/10/5

|

9

|

5

|

5

|Unyielding Assault III, Combat Zone (+15ft),

16th|

16/11/6/1

|

10

|

5

|

5

|FBF

17th|

17/12/7/2

|

10

|

5

|

5

|Powerful Build IV, FBF

18th|

18/13/8/3

|

11

|

6

|

6

|Combat Superiority

19th|

19/14/9/4

|

11

|

6

|

6

|FBF

20th|

20/15/10/5

|

12

|

6

|

6

|Champion of Combat,Combat Zone (+20ft), FBF [/table]

Hit Die:d10
Good Saves:Fortitude
Class Skills:Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at First Level:(4 + Int Mod) X 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level:4 + Int Mod

Starting Gold:As Fighter. However the Fighter gains for free one martial weapon, one ranged weapon, and one suit of armor. These were received as gifts/for free from wherever the Fighter learned his/her abilities.

Fighter Bonus Feats:

• Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

• For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

• A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour.

• Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

• Any class feature that the fighter obtains may be replaced by a Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class ability (such as Powerful Build) is on multiple levels then the Fighter gains a Fighter bonus feat at those levels.

• A 2nd level fighter may ignore alignment prerequisites for the Fighter Bonus Feats among the chaos/law or good/evil axis. A 12th level Fighter may ignore alignment prerequisites for Fighter Bonus Feats on both the law/chaos and good/evil axis.

• At 12th level all ECL Feats are now considered Fighter Bonus Feats. Only ECL Feats gained when a level of Fighter was taken are considered Fighter Bonus Feats.

Veteran (I,II,III):Due to years of fighting and practice the Fighter has learned to use his wisdom to compensate for his other less used attributes. At first level choose one of the following to replace with the Fighter's wisdom.

• Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using combat reflexes, when determining your Initiative, and the Fighter's Dex bonus to AC.

• Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using a ranged attack and dex based skills. You may also apply your wis mod when calculating ranged damage.

• Int: Replace your Int modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining skill points and Int based skills.

• Cha: Replace your Cha modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining cha based skills and any feat that is fueled by charisma.

Powerful Build (I – IV):

• The physical stature of Fighters lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a Fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Fighter is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Fighter is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Fighter can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with itself, the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

• The size of a Fighter’s weapons doesn’t change but the damage size is always equal to his effective size category. A medium sized creature who becomes a fighter and gains Powerful Build I, II, and III is now considered “Gargantuan” if it is advantageous to him. Medium => Large (1) => Huge (2) => Gargantuan (3).

Adrenaline (I - II):

"They say some warriors can reach a breaking point, where their rage flows over and turns them into a death machine. However us Fighters always need their wits about them and boy don't ever let me see you loose your temper, doing so may make you loose your head! Let the sounds of battle, the smell of blood, and the sight of death fuel you to become stronger and faster so that you may push yourself past mortal limits to become the greatest death machine this or any other realm has ever seen!"

-Greinke Hammerheart Dwarven Fighter

• For a number of rounds a day equal to (1/2 Fighter level + Fighter's con mod) a Fighter may go into a state boosted by Adrenaline. The Fighter may ignore penalty to speed due to armor (Dwarfs gain +10 bonus to speed), gains freedom of movement, and a bonus on attack rolls (con mod). Once used this ability can't be used until the Fighter is no longer slowed (see below).

• Slowed: When the effects of a Fighter's Adrenaline have ended the Fighter's normal speed is halved for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds the fighter spent in a state of Adrenaline. At level 12 the Fighter no longer becomes slowed after the effects of Adrenaline has worn off.

• This is a free action to activate usually part of another action.

Experienced:

• A fighter gains as bonus experience points equal to (Fighter Level X 5%) anytime the Fighter gains XP from combat. A 6th level fighter gains 30% more experience from combat than the Fighter's allies.

Unyielding Assault (I-III): A fighter's mind may fail him, a fighter's reflexes may fail him, but a Fighter's body is always there to pick up the slack.

• Unyielding Assault I: Slippery Mind

• Unyielding Assault II: Mettle

• Unyielding Assault III: Iron Heart Surge (con mod times/day)

Combat Zone: This feat as a class feature http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...-patrol-combat. Although not exactly like the feat but it is a good start.

• Increase threatened area by 5ft for every 5 Fighter levels.

• You may make AoO v.s. any opponent in this area that you can shift to.

• While using this ability to make AoO you may shift up to your speed to get to your target but you can't shift more than your speed using this ability in one round. This movement doesn't interfere with the Fighter's movement on the Fighter's turn.

Fighter's Health (I-II):

• 1st Level: Anytime the Fighter is healed by magical means he receives the maximum amount plus his Fighter level (A 5th level fighter who gets cured for 1d8 + 4 = 12 + 5= 17 hp healed).

• 1st Level: Once per encounter as an Immediate action, a Fighter may use a second wind. This heals the fighter 1/4 of his hit points plus a number of hit points equal to his ECL. A

• 10th Level: At each level the Fighter "takes 10" on his Hit Die roll.

Champion of Combat:

• As a free action anytime a creature that is in the threatened area of the fighter attacks another creature (except the Fighter), the Fighter may take a full attack against the creature who attacked. This is considered an AoO.

• Any creature hit by the Fighter must make a DC = (Fighter Level + Con mod) Fort Save. If failed the enemy's Str score becomes 0 for 1d4 + 1 rounds. This save is without the aide of magic or magic items. This attack applies to any attack from the fighter in which the fighter deals damage.

• The Fighter ignores all magical miss chance from spells such as blink, blur, and the like.

Alternate Cap Ability: Zantetsuken

Zantetsuken:

• As a full round action a Fighter may make a triple move and one attack. This movement may be used before and after the attack however the Fighter chooses. This movement is a straight line that doesn't provoke AoO. The attack is at the Fighter's highest BAB.

• Any enemy hit by this attack that has less than 100 Hp dies. This is not a death effect but the Fighter is literally slicing the target into separate pieces, thus targets immune to death effects are still effected by the Zantetsuken.

• Any Enemy that is missed by the Zantetsuken (from a missed attack roll or had to much HP) instead takes HP damage equal to 1/4 their max HP.

• A Fighter may perform a Zantetsuken Con Mod times per day. But only once every 1d4 rounds.

[Glimbur]

Bonus Fighter Feats:The Fighter may ignore any and all stat requirements for feats she gains through this class feature. Also any feat is now a fighter bonus feat. Multiple levels (1,2, and anytime you normally don't gain a feat).

This has unintended consequences. Mage Slayer, for example, is a feat that some fighters want but it's not a [fighter] feat. If I'm reading this correctly, it means you can only take [fighter] feats which is poor design.

Each day a Fighter may retrain (Fighter level number) of Fighter Bonus Feats by spending an hour per feat.

Pretty useful, but not game breaking. I'd put it low to mid levels... 6ish or so.

Powerful Build: As the racial trait, this doesn't change your actual size but does change your weight. This comes as type I, II, III, IV, V. This stacks with the racial trait and with itself. (I do need a good fluff on why a Fighter can use a collosal weapon... Perhaps the size doesn't
Change but the mass does? Level 1, 6, 12, 15, 18?

Bonus damage is pretty much all this is, except it makes it harder to keep one weapon. I might instead just add flat damage to weapon attacks; it has the same effect, is less abusable (Greater Mighty Wallop from races of the dragon gets messy), and it lets you use the same sword from level 1 to 20 provided you keep enchanting it further. As you already said, this could be a scaling feature that you get more of as you level. You'll have to consider how it interacts with Power Attack and its helper feats.

Yell: For a number of rounds equal to the Fighter's con mod a Fighter gains a bonus to will saves (con mod), speed (+10 ft), freedom of movement, pounce, and a bonus on att and dmg rolls (con mod). Once used this ability can't be used for 5 rounds. Level 3?

Freedom of Movement at level 3 essentially at will seems too good. Change that to a bonus to resist grapple checks equal to twice con mod and you're probably ok. What action is this to use? If it's a swift, expect this effect to be on nearly all the time unless there are a lot of other swift actions added as well.

Hero's Calling: Anytime the Fighter is under an enchantment type effect (grasping hand or even confusion/mind rape type spells) and an ally is in danger (directly attacked) the fighter as a free action gains another saving throw with a +10 bonus + Con Mod. At a higher level the fighter automatically will succeed on the second saving throw. (Perhaps at 20th level he can even escape an imprisonment spell because he can "feel" his friends in danger? Haha). Level 3

Slippery Mind is a well-defined ability that already exists. If you give that to the fighter, but refluff it, that should work. What you have proposed is stronger; immunity to Enchantment can happen at ~15th level but it's not free. The +10 is what makes me wary here; get a workable definition of what effects this ability helps against and remove the +10 and level 3ish would be fine.

No Passing Zone: Any enemy within 5ft/3 Fighter levels provoke attack of opportunity whenever they perform an action that provokes. The Fighter as a free action may move (shift) 5ft/3fighter levels. This can be used a number of times equal to number of AoO + Wis mod times/ day (? Or /enc). *Special* If a Fighter takes Combat Reflexes he may use wis instead of dex for number of AoO she may perform. Level 9?

Your first sentence is a tautology, so I suspect you have not communicated what you wanted to. I think what you want is "If an opponent performs an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity within five feet of the fighter per three fighter levels the fighter has, the fighter may move (as a free action) up to five feet per three fighter levels the fighter possesses. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of Attacks of Opportunity the fighter can take in a round plus his wisdom modifier (if positive)." You might also want to make the movement an immediate action, rather than a free action, but the per-day limit on the ability makes novas of it less attractive. Make the stat substitution for AoO's a separate ability at level 1.

Level 20 Cap!
Bad Idea Bub: As a free action anytime a creature within reach of the fighter attacks another creature, the Fighter may take a full attack against the creature who attacked (usually an enemy).

Any creature within reach of the Fighter may not take any action that provokes an AoO. When a creature does this it not only fails but the fighter may take her AoO on the enemy.

People who argue for every advantage they can get might say that when the creature attacks the fighter, the creature is attacking another creature and so the fighter should get two full attacks a round in a one-on-one fight. This might not be what you intended.
The ability to prevent actions wholesale is very strong. This means a 20th level fighter, for example, can stand in a canyon and stop a mob of peasants from running past him. That's probably acceptable at 20th level. Looking at the list of actions that provoke, most of them should not be done anywhere near opponents at 20th level but it still feels too powerful.

One last thing I want to add into Fighter Bonus Feats is that if you gain a feat such as "Improved Trip" you may get rid of Combat Expertise if you have Imp Trip for 1 or 2 levels before getting rid of the feat prerequisite? Mostly because the ppl who use some feat trees never use the base feats....

Personally, I would fix this by making the base feats worth taking, or eliminating them entirely.

After I get the fighter the way I like it I will work on the Ranger, Barbarian, and Rogue (perhaps giving the rogue an oposite ability of powerful build :p ).

Any suggestions?

Ranger and Barbarian are a lot like fighters that have class features. You could combine all three by making Ranger and Barbarian alternate class options for fighter. Balance might be tricky.

[SSGoW]

Ok so I had a good response and everything but my phone crashed. I will add my response again tomorrow.

But thank you. I see where I didn't explain things all the way.

Thanks!

...To be continued

Oh yeah the way I see the Martial classes... Fighter is military trained, rogue is a urban streetwise fighter, ranger is a woodsman fighter, and a barbarian is a primative fighter. I would love to make a class that could represent this...

[SSGoW]

My change to the Fighter Bonus Feats (FBF).

• Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prereq's for.
  
  The Fighter no longer needs to meet ability score prereq's for any feat.
  
  A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour. At level 10, the Fighter may retrain feats gained from ECL in the same manor.
  
  Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prereqs. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prereqs keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.
  

I still need to word this better I'm sure but it portrays my basic thoughts on this.

One of the reasons I have fighters able to ignore the ability score prereqs is cause in my years of playing sports I have seen many many maaaany completely stupid guys be able to do something that smarter (and slightly athletic) people can't.

Another problem I have is that metamagic feats don't require any ability scores (well none that I know of) yet the feats for the guys and gals that live and die by them have them out the wazoo.

Also I know it is a bit odd to see a fighter with an 8 for dex use whirlwind but if you refluff it then the feats works (think clumsy ogre spinning with a great club hahaha).

[Ashtagon]

The problem with giving a meta-magic feat a prereq is that either you get a big shrug when you tell the wizard he needs Intelligence 17 (when he had 18 at 1st level, at least). Or you create ability score prerequs that don't quite make sense (eg Int, Wis, and Cha 13+).

I normally houserule you can add your fighter class level to your ability scores in order to meet the prereqs for any feats tagged as fighter bonus feats.

I'm cool with one-hour feat retraining, but untraining a feat that is acting as a prereq rapidly gets iffy when you consider multiclass characters, since that feature could in principle be used to aid the character's non-fighter class levels.

None of this fixes the basic problem that feats basically suck as a class feature though.

[SSGoW]

The problem with giving a meta-magic feat a prereq is that either you get a big shrug when you tell the wizard he needs Intelligence 17 (when he had 18 at 1st level, at least). Or you create ability score prerequs that don't quite make sense (eg Int, Wis, and Cha 13+).

I normally houserule you can add your fighter class level to your ability scores in order to meet the prereqs for any feats tagged as fighter bonus feats.

I'm cool with one-hour feat retraining, but untraining a feat that is acting as a prereq rapidly gets iffy when you consider multiclass characters, since that feature could in principle be used to aid the character's non-fighter class levels.

None of this fixes the basic problem that feats basically suck as a class feature though.

Well fixing feats is a whole new beast that should be left to the DM on a game by game basis. I saw a few good ideas on here.

My idea is just to give Mr Feat the means of dealing with that beast in a better way rather than gut the feat system and start from scratch.

I don't think its perfect but giving the fighter a better management system is easier and it works for the most part :)

*EDIT*

I'm recreating this class with the idea that people won't want to multiclass or at the very least they will think "hmm do I really want to multiclass?". I think every class should be made in such a way a majority of people won't want to take 2 levels and then leave since the class beyond that point is horrid. Sure people may still multiclass and heck it may be an awesome multiclass but I wouldn't want to build or fix something with the idea of multiclassing in mind.

With that said I'm not sure how multiclassing would be hampered by the fact that you can retrain your feats. You can only retrain your FBF (until a certain level later) but if you go into a prestige class that has a feat prerequisite and then later you retrain that feat... You would no longer qualify for that prestige class.

A fighter 5/Wizard 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be able to retrain her FBF into metamagic feats or whatever she wanted

a Fighter 5/Rogue 10/Shadow Dancer 5 who had combat reflexes, dodge and mobility as her FBF then she would still be able to retrain them but she would loose her shadow dancer abilities since she no longer qualified for it (though she could just pick up those feats in her normal line of feats).

[SSGoW]

I've updated a few things, took some wording from the SRD (powerful build) and added a couple things.

Is Veteran good enough as is or should I allow 2 of the choices?

[silphael]

Maybe one at first level, one at fifth, and one at tenth? With a mention on the skill providing one that says that they are retroactive, probably. And add that's it makes it too for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites.

[SSGoW]

Maybe one at first level, one at fifth, and one at tenth? With a mention on the skill providing one that says that they are retroactive, probably. And add that's it makes it too for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites.

Well prereqs aren't really a problem. This fighter will be getting a ton of fighter bonus feats that he doesn't need to have ability score prereqs for.

I think I will go 1,5,10 and the skills will be retroactive. I may expand this and give a couple more options but give 3 slots to gain it in...

Perhaps gain Wis to ranged attacks, ranged dmg , wis to dex based skills. This will help make the fighter be able to be a ranged type character if so desired but still not be to MAD. Plus with this one a fighter could switch from ranged to melee with some prep time).

[SSGoW]

Another feature of the fighter that I figured I would put in is somewhere around 10th level have all of his hit dice rolls from then onward be counted as max (even if he multiclasses later). I know HP doesn't matter much (many ways to kill someone with spells) but at least by the time the fighter hits later levels the PC will feel tough from having high hp.

Perhaps double the con bonus also?

[SSGoW]

OK so I updated some stuff and also finally learned how to use tables... Ok so I copied and pasted a table... :D

I don't really see this as a fix for the fighter more of a ... Promotion... Yeah.. If the original 3.5 fighter was a grunt and the pathfinder was a lieutenant then this would be a major.

I also wasn't looking for balance between this and existing classes since I plan to deal with them next (Rogue, Ranger, and Barbarian mostly).

I put in "Experienced" to be more of a call back to the old days where Fighters leveled faster than the mages. This is one thing all mundane classes will have.

Any thoughts on the Zantetsuken? I wanted to put it around the power level of Power Word Kill but also beef it up a bit since I was thinking something like "Demi" and "Odin" from the Final Fantasy series.

Broken compared to the other melee classes? Yes... But wait until you see the plans I have for the barbarian's rage... >:D

[Vadskye]

Have you read this? Because if you haven't, you should. It looks like you're using a lot of the same ideas.

[SSGoW]

Have you read this? Because if you haven't, you should. It looks like you're using a lot of the same ideas.

I have not seen that before, thanks! I like a lot of what the author is saying.

It does bring up an important ability I forgot, the ability to block magic effects with a shield. The iconic image of a dragon breathing fire at a fighter and the fighter not getting hurt and coming in with a sword at the dragon's throat.

I'm going to read over that article a couple times and see if it helps me ..

Edit:

One thing I like is to give all the mundane fighter types (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Paladin) a X uses/day ability (such as rage with the barbarian). Though Rage needs to be changed a bit...

[willpell]

It's rare for me to really like homebrew, so I'm fairly impressed with what you've done here. That said I do have several specific issues with a few of the choices you've made; I probably would change this in my campaign, but otherwise I might well use this.

Bad Saves:Reflex, Will

You don't really needs this line, since by definition having Fortitude as the only good save produces this result. I tripped up for a moment when reading this line; not a huge deal, but kinda annoying, like stumbling over your own feet for a second.

Starting Gold:As Fighter

Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using AoO, Initiative, and Dex to AC.

I'm not sure what you mean by AoO here; the only time Dex is relevant to AoOs is with the Combat Reflexes or Weapon Finesse feats.

Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using a ranged attack and dex based skills. You may also apply your wis mod when calculating ranged damage.

Ranged damage doesn't normally get an attribute modifier at all; if arrows and crossbow bolts are suddenly doing 4 more damage apiece, it makes for something of a sea change in the campaign, although this might be intentional / beneficial. Still it'd be a bit odd for the Fighter's arrows to be better than those of, say, an Arcane Archer or an archery-style Ranger.

Int: Replace your Int modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining skills points at first level, skill points at every other level besides first, and Int based skills.

You could just say "when determining skill points and INT based skills", as this writing could technically be read as saying the fighter only gets to use Wisdom for half his levels after first. I doubt anyone would actually try to argue that but still it reads oddly. Also personally I'm not sure it's right for a Wisdom modifier to apply to, say, Knowledge: the Planes or Decipher Script or Psicraft. For some things like Search or Appraise it fits, but overall I think that applying it to all INT-based skills is likely to lead to a few strange situations, where the first-level "veteran" knows more about some weird magical monster than the Wizard.

Cha: Replace your Cha modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining cha based skills and any feat that is fueled by charisma.

Again, some of the skills really seem like they shouldn't be substitutable. Wisdom-based Diplomacy is probably fine and you could make an argument for UMD, but wisdom-based Perform or Disguise seems wrong...and oddly, even for Intimidate it feels off. The Fighter should be good at Intimidate, but it seems like that should be the result of how strong and badass he is, not his clear-headedness and attunement to his surroundings.

• The Fighter no longer needs to meet ability score prerequisites for any feat.

This one I really don't like, and your explanation of why you've done it is entirely contrary to my own attitude. Being able to Snatch Arrows with a dex of 4 just doesn't seem appropriate.

I have mixed feelings about Powerful Build; that seems like it should perhaps remain race-specific.

For a number of rounds a day equal to (1/2 Fighter level + Fighter's con mod) a Fighter may ignore penalty to speed due to armor (Dwarfs gain +10 bonus to speed), gains freedom of movement, and a bonus on attack rolls (con mod). Once used this ability can't be used until the Fighter is no longer slowed (see below).

Slowed: When the effects of a yell have ended the Fighter's normal speed is halved for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds the fighter spent "yelling". At level 12 the Fighter no longer becomes slowed after the effects of a yell has ended.

This is a free action to activate usually done as part as talking (or yelling).

Freedom of Movement seems a bit too extraordinary to just give away; it will literally let you walk out of a "rope jacket", so it seems impossible to refluff as anything as mundane as "yelling to focus".

And actually now that I get this far it turns out that I don't so much like the entire homebrew you've done, as I like the idea of Veteran and feat retraining and maybe Powerful Build and that's about it. Oh well, that still puts you ahead of most of the homebrew I've seen.

[SSGoW]

It's rare for me to really like homebrew, so I'm fairly impressed with what you've done here. That said I do have several specific issues with a few of the choices you've made; I probably would change this in my campaign, but otherwise I might well use this.



You don't really needs this line, since by definition having Fortitude as the only good save produces this result. I tripped up for a moment when reading this line; not a huge deal, but kinda annoying, like stumbling over your own feet for a second.







I'm not sure what you mean by AoO here; the only time Dex is relevant to AoOs is with the Combat Reflexes or Weapon Finesse feats.



Ranged damage doesn't normally get an attribute modifier at all; if arrows and crossbow bolts are suddenly doing 4 more damage apiece, it makes for something of a sea change in the campaign, although this might be intentional / beneficial. Still it'd be a bit odd for the Fighter's arrows to be better than those of, say, an Arcane Archer or an archery-style Ranger.



You could just say "when determining skill points and INT based skills", as this writing could technically be read as saying the fighter only gets to use Wisdom for half his levels after first. I doubt anyone would actually try to argue that but still it reads oddly. Also personally I'm not sure it's right for a Wisdom modifier to apply to, say, Knowledge: the Planes or Decipher Script or Psicraft. For some things like Search or Appraise it fits, but overall I think that applying it to all INT-based skills is likely to lead to a few strange situations, where the first-level "veteran" knows more about some weird magical monster than the Wizard.



Again, some of the skills really seem like they shouldn't be substitutable. Wisdom-based Diplomacy is probably fine and you could make an argument for UMD, but wisdom-based Perform or Disguise seems wrong...and oddly, even for Intimidate it feels off. The Fighter should be good at Intimidate, but it seems like that should be the result of how strong and badass he is, not his clear-headedness and attunement to his surroundings.



This one I really don't like, and your explanation of why you've done it is entirely contrary to my own attitude. Being able to Snatch Arrows with a dex of 4 just doesn't seem appropriate.

I have mixed feelings about Powerful Build; that seems like it should perhaps remain race-specific.



Freedom of Movement seems a bit too extraordinary to just give away; it will literally let you walk out of a "rope jacket", so it seems impossible to refluff as anything as mundane as "yelling to focus".

And actually now that I get this far it turns out that I don't so much like the entire homebrew you've done, as I like the idea of Veteran and feat retraining and maybe Powerful Build and that's about it. Oh well, that still puts you ahead of most of the homebrew I've seen.

Well thank you!

I'll explain everything later but I'm passing out right now. I will say a couple things... Most of the stat being replaced by other stats can be explained or refluffed as I will later. With freedom of movement... I see it as a fighter just saying "no" to being grappled or from being under a restraining spell. With the Cleric able to always have freedom of movement on (DMM Persist) I don't mind giving the Fighter some ability to move freely.

One last thing and then I'm going to go pass out. Being an ex-jock I've seen some of the meat-iest meat heads be able to do things that... They shouldn't be able to do by practicing enough. Though maybe not snatching arrows out of the air, some of these guys could perform dexterous feats even though they were str based. I've seen a almost 300 lb football player be pretty limber (though not a nice sight haha). I may change it to something along the lines of "A fighter only needs a score of 10 in each ability to meet prerequisites for feats no matter how high the ability score prerequisite is".

Later!

[willpell]

Well either way I'll probably just skip that part if I use a portion of this homebrew. But I do like most of the Veteran possibles, except maybe for INT and some CHA skills.

[SSGoW]

Well either way I'll probably just skip that part if I use a portion of this homebrew. But I do like most of the Veteran possibles, except maybe for INT and some CHA skills.

One of the rules for my fighter will be:

"You may drop any class feature (such as yell) to gain an additional Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class feature you drop has additional levels to them then you gain additional Fighter bonus feats at those levels."

This way if someone wants to be more "traditional" then this allows them to have a butt load of feats. And no matter how many feats you have I don't see it becoming broken especially compared to casters. I hope to give other mundane classes fun things to play around with too.

Anyways...


Bad Saves: A friend of mine wanted me to put that in there. I'm good either way.

Starting Gold: I'm leaving it as fighter but I'll be adding a clause saying you gain a suit of armor, ranged weapon, and a melee weapon. This equipment is from wherever you learned your trade from (military, fighter college, or old man from the hill).

Dex replacement: Yup I need to explain that better. With regards to feats such as number of AoO/round and weapon finesse.

Dex replacement and Wis to dmg on ranged dmg: Yeah I know dex usually doesn't add to damage on ranged attacks. However a arrow fired from the bow will hurt, however knowing exactly where to hit (through training) will make it hurt that much more. Plus the wis mod won't be to huge unless you take away from Str or Con.

Wis replacing Int: I'll change the wording since I don't want people messing that up. However the Fighter should know just as much about monsters (magical or not) since the Fighter has been training to kill since well forever. The thought that fighters (soldiers) don't use their brains or know stuff is silly as hell, my family has a long line of soldiers in them and they were all pretty in shape and smart as hell on tactics and book knowledge (I literally sat through tactical explanations as a kid... which at least explains what got me into D&D haha).

Wis replacing Cha... Really they are both mental stats that have a lot of overlap. Using your wisdom to outwit someone is about the same as using charisma, just going about it a different way. The way I see it is that you can explain just about anything for Wis/Int/Cha with another. *shrug*

Powerful Build: You can call it what you want but... This is the best way outside of just giving the fighter more Con and Str to show the fighter getting stronger and more powerful as they go on. Also I just love the idea of a fighter training his (or her) life and being able to grapple a dragon or something else that is larger than life. A fighter who is able to trip a great wyrm dragon by grabbing it and throwing it to the ground is just to much to pass up. Normally a fighter has to rely on a mage to grow him to be able to grapple/trip/other something bigger since the rules really really favor bigger opponents and they don't really give fighters much more than a +4 from a feat -_-;;; .

High level fighters should be able to face giants, dragons, and other monsters toe to toe.

Freedom of Movement: I don't see this as a huge problem. This ability represents a fighter being able to break bonds, run through difficult terrain, escape a grapple from a huge giant, and general show that the fighter is a badass. With limited uses per day (10 + Con Mod rounds/day at 20th level) I don't see this being particularity broken or to crazy. A mid level cleric can keep it up all day long without batting an eye. I will give yell the (Ex) tag though to show that it isn't magical.

Also with your example, the rope jacket would probably be broken out of with a strength check instead of using yell... Though if the fighter tried a few times and couldn't do it then he would probably go into focus to get out (which by the way I renamed the ability but didn't update the text).

Thanks for your help so far though!

[willpell]

Also with your example, the rope jacket would probably be broken out of with a strength check instead of using yell...

That's not the point IMO; even if the option is sub-par compared to your others, you still shouldn't be able to do it if it involved you having a superhuman magical ability when your class's whole point is to not be magical or superhuman. It's like if Batman were suddenly able to fire incredibly weak lasers from his eyes; it doesn't matter that he would never want to, the fact that suddenly he can instantly short-circuits the "Batman has no superpowers, just incredible training and exercise" shtick which is completely important to who Batman is as a character. (Not that Batman comes out to be a Fighter in D&D, but the principle is the same; fighters do not have any variety of superpowers, not even the "blade magic" of a Warblade or the "ki focus" of a Monk.)

[Deviston]

I just had an aneurysm. Besides the fact that this is extremely complicated (nothing wrong with that in itself) it's extremely STRANGE. I could critique the whole thing, but I'll settle for what sent blood streaming around in my brain case.

1. Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

As any character of any level, I am able to meet the prerequisites for Education, a feat that adds all Knowledge skill to your class. Magical Aptitude, +2 spellcraft and UMD, Tactile Trapsmith, exchanging Int for Dex for Disable Device and Search checks just to name a few. I personally, don't believe this fits as a fighter feat, but in your class, they are. As I meet the prereqs, they are as a fighter feat just like Power Attack. Me no gusta.

2. For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

I think it's fair to say that this was intended to be an ability to allow fighters to maintain the use of their feets even if their stats dropped (usually due to spells or effects) to the point that they didn't meet the prerequisites. This should be some stand alone ability, or worded to state just that. As it is worded, it makes one wonder if 1. Because you meet all the prereqs since ability requirement is lowered, then 2. All feats that I meet prereqs for (minus ability reqs) are fighter feats, and i can take them.

3. A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour. At level 10, the Fighter may retrain feats gained from ECL in the same manor.

Ugh... this allows you to take "years of training" and turn it into a 1 hour lesson of perfection. Imagine the dips... Wizard 19 Fighter 1. "ALL THE ITEM CREATIONS! at the cost of only 1 feat slot... sweeeeeeeeeet".

4. Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

This does not stipulate that the class leveled has to be the fighter class. Once again, "ALL THE FEATS!" Wizard is pleased. Grab all the crappy metamagics you can, wait two wizard levels, and since you are still a fighter (1 level) you may change them out for better metamagics with no need to keep the lesser ones. I can see this going great with ANY character who wants TWF actually. Get all the way up to Greater TWF and them retrain the prereqs to have all the beast TWF and TWD feats. The Greater feats, as read, give you the benefits of the lesser feats, so you lose out on nothing.

OOH! I FIGURED IT OUT! Grab one level of this Fighter class, and you forever have a better version of the "floating feat" that the Chameleon PRC has. Since you can change it with an hour vs only once a day. Now if you go the full fighter class, you have ALL THE CHAMALEON FEATS! And since (according to your class) all ECL feats are also "FBF" which are exchangable, a human who dips one level into this class has THREE Chameleon feats floating not to mention that every feat they get after that (via having character levels) turns into Chameleon feats. Ok... I've decided, you should leave it the way it is. I'm taking this class as level 1 EVERY time without fail.


EDIT: Noticed this now...

•Any class feature that the fighter obtains may be replaced by a Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class ability (such as Powerful Build) is on multiple levels then the Fighter gains a Fighter bonus feat at those levels.

Now I have a total of 35 Chameleon feats derived from this class, and 7 more Chameleon feats from character levels. Cool.

[SSGoW]

I just had an aneurysm. Besides the fact that this is extremely complicated (nothing wrong with that in itself) it's extremely STRANGE. I could critique the whole thing, but I'll settle for what sent blood streaming around in my brain case.

1. Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

As any character of any level, I am able to meet the prerequisites for Education, a feat that adds all Knowledge skill to your class. Magical Aptitude, +2 spellcraft and UMD, Tactile Trapsmith, exchanging Int for Dex for Disable Device and Search checks just to name a few. I personally, don't believe this fits as a fighter feat, but in your class, they are. As I meet the prereqs, they are as a fighter feat just like Power Attack. Me no gusta.

2. For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

I think it's fair to say that this was intended to be an ability to allow fighters to maintain the use of their feets even if their stats dropped (usually due to spells or effects) to the point that they didn't meet the prerequisites. This should be some stand alone ability, or worded to state just that. As it is worded, it makes one wonder if 1. Because you meet all the prereqs since ability requirement is lowered, then 2. All feats that I meet prereqs for (minus ability reqs) are fighter feats, and i can take them.

3. A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour. At level 10, the Fighter may retrain feats gained from ECL in the same manor.

Ugh... this allows you to take "years of training" and turn it into a 1 hour lesson of perfection. Imagine the dips... Wizard 19 Fighter 1. "ALL THE ITEM CREATIONS! at the cost of only 1 feat slot... sweeeeeeeeeet".

4. Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

This does not stipulate that the class leveled has to be the fighter class. Once again, "ALL THE FEATS!" Wizard is pleased. Grab all the crappy metamagics you can, wait two wizard levels, and since you are still a fighter (1 level) you may change them out for better metamagics with no need to keep the lesser ones. I can see this going great with ANY character who wants TWF actually. Get all the way up to Greater TWF and them retrain the prereqs to have all the beast TWF and TWD feats. The Greater feats, as read, give you the benefits of the lesser feats, so you lose out on nothing.

OOH! I FIGURED IT OUT! Grab one level of this Fighter class, and you forever have a better version of the "floating feat" that the Chameleon PRC has. Since you can change it with an hour vs only once a day. Now if you go the full fighter class, you have ALL THE CHAMALEON FEATS! And since (according to your class) all ECL feats are also "FBF" which are exchangable, a human who dips one level into this class has THREE Chameleon feats floating not to mention that every feat they get after that (via having character levels) turns into Chameleon feats. Ok... I've decided, you should leave it the way it is. I'm taking this class as level 1 EVERY time without fail.


EDIT: Noticed this now...

•Any class feature that the fighter obtains may be replaced by a Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class ability (such as Powerful Build) is on multiple levels then the Fighter gains a Fighter bonus feat at those levels.

Now I have a total of 35 Chameleon feats derived from this class, and 7 more Chameleon feats from character levels. Cool.

=====

Thank you for your reply, I do appreciate it but... Wow calm down, you seem like you are taking it as a personal insult that there are holes in my design that is about 2 weeks old now... Seriously I'm not the one that killed your pet.

Anyways to your points.

1.: Fighter Bonus Feats: Fighters are soldiers, and being as such they come in many forms. Some like brute force and others may be a combat medic or even a I don't know... Sneak attack type (3.5 has this by the way). The Fighter Bonus Feat system I have was put in place to let people pick a specialty OR be flexible. Actually it is meant to just be flexible but apparently if you are mundane you can't be flexible (so the term mundane human is a bit odd I guess...).

Once you learn ITWF (improved two weapon fighting) you don't need TWF (two weapon fighting) since it essentially is the same feat you just practiced so much that you got better. In Kendo you learn how to hit the head with a strike, however once you get good enough you don't really follow the same attack. You keep your body lined up with your arms and posture but you don't bring your sword all the way above your head. You are still using the basics and you still practice but now you have a strike that is quicker and more effective (and you will never use your practice strike in a real match again). The feat system here is like that. Once you learn a feat and then learn another you are treated to have kept that knowledge not for whatever reason totally forgotten it. (this is sooo much easier to explain in person haha).

2.: If a feat says "Dex 19" is required to take it (and is the only requirement) then if the Fighter has a score of 10 then he can take the feat.

That isn't to say some of the fluff needs to be... Changed... However that is up to the player and DM.

Take whirlwind for example. There are tons of feats and ability prerequisites that focus off dex. I could see this being a strength move easily. Heck I think 4e has moves like this that are keyed off str. Besides Fighters (coughheroscough) are supposed to be able to do things that make people go "O_o how the hell did HE do that". Imagine an orc spinning in circles (with a club out) to kill all the helpless little things that are annoying him, he doesn't have the dex but he is still a threat.

The way I changed Fighter Bonus Feats is that instead of having a list that a Fighter can choose from, I made it where he has more training in which to pick more abilities from. So instead of having a basket full of beets in which the fighter can take from... I gave the Fighter a basket and let him run wild in the grocery store.

3: Feat retraining: And how does this make the Wizard even more broken than before? Actually even with the floating feat I think that Wizard is weaker since he lost a caster level and a 9th level spell.

The retraining is any that the Fighter can normally take. Therefore this will be a selection that the Fighter already could have taken but didn't. I played sports my whole life so I know how easy it is to pick up different things, hell I went from basketball/soccer to kendo/tennis. Sure after switching I wasn't as good at basketball/soccer as kendo and tennis but that didn't mean I wasn't able to switch. During the time I was on the college kendo team I would play a pick up game of basketball. It would take me roughly ... 2 or 3 minutes to get back into the groove of things.

Again it must have just been horrible to think that a fighter can switch up his game plan... I might want to watch out that I rip a hole in the fabric of space time just for thinking a Fighter might be able to do something else with a little practice!

4:Again I'm not sure why you are freaking out over this. I never said this was finished and even if I did... Why does it bother you so much (you may need to take a break from RPGs... I'm actually worried).

You also say all these things as if I somehow broke the game of D&D... Trust me bud, that ship sailed away years ago (though I do have hope in 5th ed).

A Wizard 5/Fighter 5 is still a Fighter 5 so any feats he gained as a Fighter can be used as if he (or she but I don't feel like writing he and she or he/she every time) still a Fighter 5. Again this doesn't break anything since well Wizard 10 is still more broken than anything with 5 levels of Fighter.

Thanks though, you reminded me to put something into the feats section. The ECL Feats = Fighter Bonus Feats were suppose to come online around 13 or so. I think I posted that in another post or perhaps I deleted it *shrug*.

In conclusion

You do know this is a homebrew and an active creation? Thanks for taking the time to read over everything ... And taking the time to reply. Also I guess I'm sorry that my homebrew was so horrid that you freaked out.


I'm a bit weirded out that anyone can get as worked up as you when they read homebrew. I pray you don't read the Wizard spell list after reading my Fighter...
===


Back to the Freedom of Movement

It isn't that the Fighter is gaining a spell, spell like ability, or even a supernatural ability. I could have just gave him a new ability called "Mr Awesome" but gave the ability all the same stuff as Freedom of Movement... However I didn't want to beat a dead horse with a stick. Instead of making something new with all the same abilities as something else I just used what everyone knows.

I didn't want to make a mistake during the creation like Magic of Incarnum did. Magic of Incarnum is wonderful but a lot of their wording and phrasing is just... Yeah crazy...

Anyways... Focus doesn't give the Fighter super powers. What it gives him is either an adrenaline rush/clearer thinking. I actually based Focus on Rage, I wanted the Fighter to have a "rounds/day" ability that would make getting more Fighter levels worth it (beyond everything else of course :p).

I may just rename Focus to "Adrenaline". Also I have yet to really fluff everything to where I believe it is ready to go.

I see what you mean but I'm not sure how to explain my point of view to well over the computer. After I get all the meat of the class fleshed out (+ the mechanics) then I will worry about the fluff.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

• Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

• For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

The first leads to very odd situations...I don't like it. Maybe something like "Fighter Bonus Feats are marked as such. Additionally, any feats with a Base Attack Bonus, Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution requirement counts as a Fighter Bonus Feat." This isn't perfect, but at least stops Metamagic and other silly feats from counting.

The second half needs to be worded "For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats with ability score prerequisites, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 in the listed ability scores." As currently written, a score of 10 (in what? It doesn't specify) allows him to ignore all prerequisites.

• A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour.

Specify those gained through class features, since I don't like it working with normally gained feats...a class shouldn't interfere with features not gained via class progression. Additionally, specify that the retrained feat must ALSO be a Fighter Bonus Feat, or you get some funny interactions (i.e. you can train into feats you can't train out of).

• Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

What if I retrain to get that feat? Do I have to retrain the prerequisite feats, and then train them out afterwards? i.e. if I want to train Toughness into Whirlwind Expertise before a big fight, do I have to train into Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack and THEN train out of them if I don't want those feats?

• At 12th level all ECL Feats are now considered Fighter Bonus Feats. Only ECL Feats gained when a level of Fighter was taken are considered Fighter Bonus Feats.

Urgh. First thing I've seen thus far that has really ground me the wrong way. Not a fan of class features altering the basics of character progression.

More to come later, but my girlfriend is poking me to pay attention to her instead of your class.

[willpell]

Once you learn ITWF (improved two weapon fighting) you don't need TWF (two weapon fighting) since it essentially is the same feat you just practiced so much that you got better.

This is incorrect. If you lose a prerequisite to a feat, you lose the use of that feat. So if you retrain TWF away, ITWF no longer works.

Imagine an orc spinning in circles (with a club out) to kill all the helpless little things that are annoying him, he doesn't have the dex but he is still a threat.

If he doesn't have much DEX then he is so slow and ponderous with his swing that everyone can easily duck or dodge back out of the way.

So instead of having a basket full of beets in which the fighter can take from... I gave the Fighter a basket and let him run wild in the grocery store.

At this point someone might as well just be a Warblade. To me the point of the fighter is that he doesn't have too many choices to make; he's just good with a sword and he solves all his problems in elegantly simple ways. (That he's *not* actually good with a sword is an unfortunate miscalculation on the designers' part, where they thought +1 to-hit was as big of a deal as the ability to cast a spell.)

You also say all these things as if I somehow broke the game of D&D... Trust me bud, that ship sailed away years ago (though I do have hope in 5th ed).

Agreed, I'm eager to see what 5E brings. But while the game as-is may be broken, there's little point in homebrewing if not to fix some of that brokenness.

I'm a bit weirded out that anyone can get as worked up as you when they read homebrew. I pray you don't read the Wizard spell list after reading my Fighter...

The wizard spell list is too large for anyone to read all at once.

It isn't that the Fighter is gaining a spell, spell like ability, or even a supernatural ability. I could have just gave him a new ability called "Mr Awesome" but gave the ability all the same stuff as Freedom of Movement... However I didn't want to beat a dead horse with a stick. Instead of making something new with all the same abilities as something else I just used what everyone knows.

In my opinion that was a miscalculation. Freedom of Movement has miraculous effects; it lets you walk right through solid barriers such as spiderwebs, and is shown doing this in the art. Getting an ability like that as a character who's explicitly not supposed to have any superpowers just isn't right. You could accomplish better versions of similar effects with something like +10 to Escape Artist checks, or the ability to break clear of a grapple with just one grapple check when pinned. This way, you still wouldn't be doing anything that ought to be impossible for you, you'd just be better at doing things that are possible.

I didn't want to make a mistake during the creation like Magic of Incarnum did. Magic of Incarnum is wonderful but a lot of their wording and phrasing is just... Yeah crazy...

Not that I disagree at all, but what specifically were you thinking of?

I may just rename Focus to "Adrenaline".

That might be a good idea. Both names have some of the right flavor but Focus to me sounds more like a Monk or Samurai thing.

[TopCheese]

The wizard spell list is too large for anyone to read all at once.

And each of those spells is essentially a class feature.

The wizard doesn't have just three class features (spells, familiar, bonus feats) but has ... err however many spells/day that they get.

At level 1 the Wizard has 4 class features + bonus for Int mod (usually 4 to 5). And each level they gain more and more under the guise of one class feature. The wizard even can switch around his class features to some degree... Hmm...

==

Anyways I'll have a longer response later.

[willpell]

And each of those spells is essentially a class feature.

The wizard doesn't have just three class features (spells, familiar, bonus feats) but has ... err however many spells/day that they get.

At level 1 the Wizard has 4 class features + bonus for Int mod (usually 4 to 5). And each level they gain more and more under the guise of one class feature. The wizard even can switch around his class features to some degree... Hmm...

I agree with all this, and was just thinking along those lines myself. I was thinking you might be able to begin balancing the game by turning EVERY aspect of every character class into a feat, and then switching things around until every class has the same number of feats. Martial classes would get feats for their larger hit dice, their higher BAB, their weapon and armor proficiencies, and a few more feats for combat maneuvers. Rogues would have the Sneak Attack feat and 2 or 3 "More Skill Points" feats, while other classes would get "More Skill Points" once or twice at most. And the wizard would pretty much treat every spell as a separate feat, perhaps gaining the ability to cast it more often but not to have so many different ones. The end result would be, well, probably something like 4E.

[Vadskye]

If everyone can switch class features daily, you destroy the concept of fulfilling a single archetype - which is a really big part of being a character, I think. I think it's better to just remove casters' ability to change spells daily and put everyone back on the same playing field.

[TopCheese]

The thing about feats and to an extent class features is that instead of saying "hey you learned this and you must always use this" you could say something like "this is what you are focusing on right now...maybe later you stop and focus on something else, but right now you are focusing on this."

There are some things in the real world we never forget like riding a bike or 2 + 2. That stuff is our chassis.

Other things like say.. Shooting a basketball or welding can be learned and if not used or focused on your skill in that ability becomes that of a common person picking up the skill/ability.

Sure I used to play basketball but trust me I can't shoot anywhere near the percentage of 3 pointers I used to. Heck at one point I could dunk a basketball (6ft white kid at the time... take that you darn movie!) but since college I focused on becoming a scientist and guess how far I can get off the ground now -_-;;;;

I'm all for class features and feats being retrained it makes the classes more realistic actually.

Oh and I don't think archtypes matter much in 3.5 since a wizard can pretty much be ANY archtype (yes even sword n board fighter).

[SSGoW]

How about this for a class feature.

To show how strong a fighter's body and mind is, he gains immunity to the harmful spells of a specific school of magic. This school will be chosen at different levels starting at 5th and ending at 20th.

Sooo..

Starting at 5th level the Fighter's mind, body, and soul starts to resist magic. The Fighter's very essence repels magic in some form or another.

A Mage may be able to burn a normal person or even another weakly mage but a fighter? No a Fighter has been training for such attacks his whole life and can walk right through a fireball or necromantic spell like it is nothing.

At 5th level and every 3 levels after that (8,11,14,17, 20) the Fighter chooses a school of magic and becomes immune to the spells of that school.

The schools to choose from are

• Abjuration

• Conjuration

• Divination

• Enchantment

• Evocation

• Necromancy

I can write up some fluff sometime to explain exactly why they are immune but right now I won't. It will be a pure physical body over spell sort of thing. Kind of like "mind over body" except in reverse I guess.

A friend pointed out that Wizards have Miss Chanceso why not give the Fighter something that totally screws over the main schitch of the Wizard's class?

People say "but a fighter can swing a sword all day" but with one or two spells the wizard can make the fighter swing that same damn sword anyway the wizard likes. Heck some spells will get the fighter to kill his team mates and then himself...All..Day...Long...

[Glimbur]

Immunity to conjuration is... problematic. Immune to cloudkill? Simple. Immune to the orb spells? Also simple. Conjured monsters? They allow SR, so there's precedent. But how does, say, immunity to Mage's Faithful Hound work? Are you invisible to it? What about immunity to a Called monster? What about immunity to Wall of Stone? Can you fall through a perfectly normal and solid bridge because it was created with magic? How do you get to other planes if you are immune to Plane Shift and Gate? Ok, that one is easily fixed with the ability to lower the immunity a la SR.

The point I'm trying to make is that 'immunity' to magic is difficult to adjudicate unless it works exactly like SR.

[willpell]

Per RAW, "spell immunity" is exactly the same as SR which cannot be overcome, though it's not clear whether SSGoW was proposing the exact kind of spell immunity a golem has, or something similar but distinct in detail.

[TuggyNE]

Per RAW, "spell immunity" is exactly the same as SR which cannot be overcome, though it's not clear whether SSGoW was proposing the exact kind of spell immunity a golem has, or something similar but distinct in detail.

More precisely, most 3.5 monsters that possess Magic Immunity or similar, with the notable exception of certain ELH monsters, are considered to have infinite spell resistance; there is as far as I know no general equation of the two, though, however sensible that might be.

As already mentioned, there's basically nothing else that makes sense. Unfortunately, there are a lot of important spells (especially in Conjuration) that don't allow SR, but there's no very easy fix for those.