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    Default Laptop Help?

    So, I was thinking of doing something quite special for Christmas this year for my brother and sister.
    My brother and sister both need and deserve laptops. They've done so much for me this year and the last, that now that I have a job I want to pay them back for it.
    Since Walmart has layoway, I figured I could very well afford this.
    However, I don't quite know laptops.
    Which is why I'm hoping you fine folks could help me.
    My brother wants:
    A laptop for gaming(he plays Team Fortress 2, Minecraft, some of the other free Steam Games), and he wants the screen to be around 15".

    My sister wants:
    A laptop for school, watching movies on, and more general use. She doesn't want the screen or keyboard to be tiny.

    I want:
    This to be as cheap as possible. I love them to pieces, but I don't wanna buy them $1000 laptops. And also at Walmart so I can put them on Layoway and pay for them over time.

    So...um...help please?
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    Default Re: Laptop Help?

    Best suggestion:
    Don't put them on lay-by/layaway.

    Prices of computers are dropping all the time, while at the same time their speed is increasing. By the time you pay it off, they will be obsolete.

    Instead, put the money aside (in an interest bearing account if possible) and then buy them when you have the money.

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    Default Re: Laptop Help?

    You don't have to buy them $1000 laptops.

    Best option: Look up the recommended system requirements for the games your brother plays, find a small locally-owned computer store in your area, find a laptop that meets the recommended and has at least 4 GB of memory before any memory upgrades. I found a desktop CPU with 6 GB (up to 32 with upgrades) of memory and better than the recommended requirements for $500. A laptop with a bit less memory and slightly worse run speed than that should cost about the same. For your sister, movie watching is all about the graphics card. Don't worry about memory so much, although you should probably still get 4 GB (I'm not sure if movies from DVDs take up memory).

    Second best option: As above, but go to Best Buy instead, and don't listen to the salesmen's recommendations.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2012-09-22 at 06:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Laptop Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    For your sister, movie watching is all about the graphics card. Don't worry about memory so much, although you should probably still get 4 GB (I'm not sure if movies from DVDs take up memory).
    If you're watching from a DVD, then you should be able to define how much of a buffer you want to ensure smooth playback. A good graphics card helps (since they all pretty much can do hardware acceleration these days) but depending on the codec, some are very CPU intensive - if she's regularly watching video files or streaming them off the internet, the OP may not want to skimp too much on the CPU.

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    I'm sure this has been repeated ad nauseum... But "gaming" and "cheap" don't fit together in the same sentence if the word "laptop" is also there.

    It used to be case, at least.
    Last edited by Tonal Architect; 2012-09-22 at 09:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Laptop Help?

    Gaming, cheap, laptop. Choose any two.

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    A gaming laptop isn't really a laptop, anyway, it's just a more expensive desktop with more cooling problems and a smaller screen. Playing for any length of time without having to plug the thing in would be impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    A gaming laptop isn't really a laptop, anyway, it's just a more expensive desktop with more cooling problems and a smaller screen. Playing for any length of time without having to plug the thing in would be impossible.
    Actually, the new MacBook Pros with Retina Display are pretty darn awesome for gaming.

    Flash memory hard drives, high end (for a laptop) graphics card, powerful processor, 8gb ram minimum, extremely light and portable, rather long battery life (which does shrink with gaming, but is still decent), fantastic screen.

    It is actually a good price for what you get too, especially when compared to the competition. It is not, however, cheap.

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    Obligatory "lol macs gaming" joke. Steam might be bringing a bunch of games to OSX, but it's still nowhere close to the amount of stuff you can get on Windows.

    Besides, I didn't say that there weren't laptops capable of gaming. I said that if you're gaming, a desktop is just better in every respect, considering that the main advantage of laptops disappears with the heavy battery drain that gaming would create.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2012-09-22 at 10:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Obligatory "lol macs gaming" joke. Steam might be bringing a bunch of games to OSX, but it's still nowhere close to the amount of stuff you can get on Windows.

    Besides, I didn't say that there weren't laptops capable of gaming. I said that if you're gaming, a desktop is just better in every respect, considering that the main advantage of laptops disappears with the heavy battery drain that gaming would create.
    Obligatory "lol boot camp + parallels removes all such hinderances".

    You do know that can run Windows on a Mac, right? Boot Camp will let you boot into it natively, and Parallels or VMware will let you run it in a virtual machine (it will be slower, but both can boot a Boot Camp partition for the times you only need a single application and speed isn't as much of an issue, giving you the best of both worlds).

    Also, CrossOver/WINE.

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    BootCamp is (IIRC anyway) strictly inferior to just running Windows to begin with.

    But this isn't an OS war thread. I'm sure the Macbook is perfectly satisfactory for gaming, insofar that a laptop can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    BootCamp is (IIRC anyway) strictly inferior to just running Windows to begin with.

    But this isn't an OS war thread. I'm sure the Macbook is perfectly satisfactory for gaming, insofar that a laptop can be.
    Boot Camp is running Windows natively. It's not a virtual machine, it's Windows running on its own partition, natively. You are "running Windows to begin with". It's the same as having a partition for Linux and a partition for Windows. Parallels and VMware Fusion are both virtual machines, and do slow things down - this may be what you're thinking of.

    I wasn't discussing the OS, only the hardware.

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    What do you think lenovo Y580? the price is under $900, it features Nvidia GT 660M, it's the best GPU of all laptops under $1000.

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    you can see this page, there are many great laptop under $1000, but I think the y580 is the best,

    Here's why I settled for the Y580:

    - Not the prettiest or lightest looking laptop, but had the most value for the price. Also, purchasing an extended warranty through Lenovo is fairly cheap.
    - Glossy display, but accurately displays colors including red. According to Noteebook check, the display covers 91% of the sRGB spectrum, which is impressive for a consumer level notebook. Since I do photo and video editing on the side, this was pleasing to hear.
    - Room for self-upgrades. It has an mSATA slot if you want to install your own. It gets SATA 3 speeds, unless you decide to remove the OD and install a HD in its place; if you do that, you'll only get SATA 2. Otherwise, the mSATA and primary HD bay get SATA 3.
    - Memory is upgradeable to 16GB
    - Amazing sound quality with the JBL Speakers
    - Strongest discrete GPU of the laptops I tested
    - Backlit keyboard was amazing, with good tactile feedback, travel, and little flex.
    - Good cooling. I was scared at first to try it out since some owners reported problems with temperatures during heavy usage, but I'd have to disagree. After gaming for multiple hours and doing some heavy rendering, my temps were only warm and never got too dangerous to damage internal components.
    - Battery life. Although it only comes with a 6 cell battery, on a full charge under power saving profiles and normal usage, I can get around 4.5 - 5 hrs, which is impressive for a laptop that has so much power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Actually, the new MacBook Pros with Retina Display are pretty darn awesome for gaming.

    Flash memory hard drives, high end (for a laptop) graphics card, powerful processor, 8gb ram minimum, extremely light and portable, rather long battery life (which does shrink with gaming, but is still decent), fantastic screen.

    It is actually a good price for what you get too, especially when compared to the competition. It is not, however, cheap.
    Sorry, "double the price of similar-spec'd competition" is not really a good price. 1.5x the price if you factor in form factor (yay, I made a pun!). The only area the Macbook wins in is the screen, which is really only important if you're a graphic designer. $2200 is not a good price for _any_ laptop these days, really.

    Case in point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Joneson.w
    you can see this page, there are many great laptop under $1000, but I think the y580 is the best,

    Here's why I settled for the Y580:
    Pretty good for gaming, although I personally don't see the point of buying a Lenovo and _not_ buying a ThinkPad which can be customized at purchase and there's usually lots of amazing sales (i.e. Visaperks gives you ~10-15% off in addition to whatever sale Lenovo has).

    As for your sister, any laptop with an Ivy/Sandy Bridge Intel processor will work just fine for pretty much anything she can throw at it. Even a 2nd gen i3 (2xxx series) with HD3000 will be fine. Don't buy anything less than that though, many makers tend to put in cheapo CPU's that lag out after 3 open Firefox windows: i.e., avoid Atoms (Intel), C- or E-series (AMD) or anything really not a Core, they either use too much power or don't perform well, or both.
    - Room for self-upgrades. It has an mSATA slot if you want to install your own. It gets SATA 3 speeds, unless you decide to remove the OD and install a HD in its place; if you do that, you'll only get SATA 2. Otherwise, the mSATA and primary HD bay get SATA 3.
    This is an awesome feature, really :) You can put in an SSD for the full SSD experience AND still keep your old huge hard drive for storage space. This way a cheap 64GB mSATA SSD (i.e. Crucial M4.. don't buy OCZ!!) will work as a system drive for all the advantages it brings and you won't run out of space or have to pay $200 for 256GB just to make sure you have enough space.
    Last edited by Don Julio Anejo; 2012-09-23 at 12:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo View Post
    Sorry, "double the price of similar-spec'd competition" is not really a good price. 1.5x the price if you factor in form factor (yay, I made a pun!). The only area the Macbook wins in is the screen, which is really only important if you're a graphic designer. $2200 is not a good price for _any_ laptop these days, really.
    You know, I am thoroughly and totally sick of this "2x the price" myth.

    I challenge you to find a laptop that has all of the same features as the MacBook Pro with Retina Display at a much cheaper price. No, I am not interested in a desktop replacement laptop. I want something light and portable with good battery life.

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    Apologies for interrupting the impending Mac vs. PC war but I would agree with the poster above that says don't put it on layaway. If you save your money you will be able to get cheaper/better stuff in a few months, especially if you can catch some Black Friday/Cyber Monday sales. HOWEVER, if you really want to do a layaway at Walmart for reasons I don't know about, I think this would work well for your sister:
    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Gra...ption/20701045

    It's got 100% five-star reviews and the specs are perfectly good for watching movies and doing schoolwork. I have a Lenovo with the same amount of memory and a slower CPU, and I do graphics work, video and audio editing, etc. with no trouble.

    I don't really know anything about gaming specs, I'm afraid, so I haven't really got a suggestion there.

    It's really nice of you to do this for them, btw

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    I've got a gaming desktop that was only $678, built by a friend last year, which is low-mid range, shouldn't be that hard to find in a laptop should it?

    These days, the best thing to make sure you have in any gaming PC:

    4GB RAM.
    At least a 1GB Graphics Card.
    Windows 7 Ultimate is a nice touch.
    A CD drive is a must (some laptops {yes, laptops} don't have them).
    And a decent battery life. Because my two year old laptop's battery life lasts 15 mins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxae View Post
    4GB RAM.
    At least a 1GB Graphics Card.
    Windows 7 Ultimate is a nice touch.
    A CD drive is a must (some laptops {yes, laptops} don't have them).
    And a decent battery life. Because my two year old laptop's battery life lasts 15 mins.
    And if you could have it generate world peace while you're about it, that'd be great...

    Seriously, that 1Gb graphics card is going to absolutely drink power, so getting decent battery life as well would result in a laptop weighing about 20lb. You have to make some compromises when speccing a laptop, and battery life is going to be one of them if you want the thing to perform in all other respects as a desktop machine would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    And if you could have it generate world peace while you're about it, that'd be great...

    Seriously, that 1Gb graphics card is going to absolutely drink power, so getting decent battery life as well would result in a laptop weighing about 20lb. You have to make some compromises when speccing a laptop, and battery life is going to be one of them if you want the thing to perform in all other respects as a desktop machine would.
    *whistles*

    I know a laptop that has 8gb of ram and 1gb of graphics ram (GDDR5) and excellent battery life... It's also exceptionally light at 4.46lbs/2.02kg.

    But it isn't cheap.

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    The main issue with using a Mac for gaming is that they simply aren't better at it then what you can get a PC for the same price. They are more expensive, no matter what any Mac fan wants to try and claim, though Apple does go out of their way to have AMD/Intel/Nvidia do special naming on their products so you can't easily compare them to the standard PC parts, they'll change the model number but it will be an identical part, but unless you know the hardware really well you won't know what the equivalent PC part is. That said, they aren't 2x as expensive either, Dells generally run about... 10% more then other manufacturers and Apple runs probably 10-20% more then Dell. And yes, boot camp lets you run Windows natively, but you've just added another $100 to the price of the laptop to get Windows on it, and thats a pretty significant price increase in the market segment being looked at.
    And sure, Apple has some nice marketing features but most of them do little to nothing in terms of performance. The retinal display for instance has a nice higher resolution, but there is a very good chance that when it comes to gaming their video card hardware isn't going to be good enough to run any even moderately demanding game at that resolution anyway so you really haven't gained much.

    As for specs... well the amount of RAM on a video card is almost completely meaningless. As long as it is a discrete graphics card it will have the RAM needed for what it can process because RAM is dirt cheap and they aren't going to cripple the performance of the GPU to save almost nothing on the really cheap RAM. For an example in desktop cards you can get video cards with 1GB of RAM from $30 to $300, which is everything from video cards that can do little more then codec acceleration and isn't going to run games at all to the newest high end video cards and it is the standard size for the majority of video cards being made now.

    As for the games your brother plays... they are all low end games, it should be easy to find a laptop that will play them.

    I bought my laptop... probably 3-4 years ago for I think $750 and it is still doing pretty well. I don't actually use it much because I prefer my desktop, but it was 17" and it is playing Borderlands 2 just fine (my brother is using it since his computer is having issues).

    First step would be to go to Newegg and search for laptops. Minimum 4GB system ram, a dedicated video card, and the screen size you are looking for. (I personally wouldn't go under 17" unless it is specifically going to be for a constantly traveling laptop). That should get you the basics of what you are looking for, they aren't going to put dedicated video cards with really low end processors. Should be a decent number of options in the $600-800 range, look through some of the options and post them here for further review.

    As for battery life, ignore it for your brother, any computer worth gaming isn't going to run long even on a huge battery, even ones that would otherwise claim great battery life isn't going to last that long while gaming. If the video card is powerful enough to run games well its going to draw enough power to not last long on battery.

    For your sister... you can probably get just about anything and it will fit those requirements. At least anything that isn't a netbook. You can look a lot more at battery life here, but it mostly comes down to what you want to pay. These will start at about $300 for the most basic ones, but will still do what you've mentioned (even a netbook would other then the small size). And really battery life will probably be the biggest factor in cost as they will all have pretty much the same hardware and batterys until you get into the "ultra light/portable" segment which is a higher price range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    The main issue with using a Mac for gaming is that they simply aren't better at it then what you can get a PC for the same price. They are more expensive, no matter what any Mac fan wants to try and claim,
    The units generally appear more expensive for what you get when you look at certain raw specs. And many gamers will decide that they are not interested in the other features you pay for with a Mac. But, I argue the whole "more expensive" claim when everything is said and done, because that money does go somewhere. They have exceptional quality screens, for example, very sturdy construction, and the by far the best (multi touch) touchpads in the industry, to name but a few. Every little bit adds up, both in creating an excellent user experience, and in where that 10-20% goes.

    P.S. I have never used a touchpad that I have actually enjoyed using, that wasn't on a Mac.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    though Apple does go out of their way to have AMD/Intel/Nvidia do special naming on their products so you can't easily compare them to the standard PC parts, they'll change the model number but it will be an identical part
    So, what's the equivalent of a GeForce GT 650M with 1GB of GDDR5 (not DDR3) RAM? I would tend to think that it would be a GeForce GT 650M with 1GB of GDDR5. Actually, from what I've read, with the clock speeds and RAM Apple has used, it compares favourably with a GTX 660M.

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    @ Rawhide: Sorry, I wanted to reply a few days ago, but haven't had a chance. In regards to my "twice as expensive, 1.5x if you factor in form factor." I'm not ranting on Macs, I actually like Macbooks insofar as both Pro and Air were very innovative for their time (a mid-spec'd really light laptop with good battery life and then an inexpensive for the time ultrabook), in much the same way Asus came up with netbooks. They're also the absolute best laptops for graphics work (sorry, for desktops high-end Eizo/Dell/NEC monitors still win) because of available software and screens.

    But... The reason I usually react strongly to anyone throwing Apple suggestions is the almost cultist-like nature of a few Apple users (have to deal with two of them at work), who keep babbling about how Apple can do no wrong and their products are perfect just the way they are. Also, the inane Samsung lawsuit, but that's beside the point and probably against forum rules. I'm not saying you're one of them (you're probably not), but specific Apple products are good for their specific uses, nothing more and nothing less. They're not an end all. Recommending a high-end Macbook Pro to someone who specifically wanted a sub-$1000 laptop that can hopefully play games is.. weird.
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    Now, since I'm a Lenovo fan (and also an Asus one, but I won't address them as they have too many different models for me to care about or know), I'm going to use Lenovo as the baseline for "normal PC manufacturer that doesn't copy Apple design philosophy." The 13" $1200 Macbook Pro compares unfavorably to my (somewhat custom configured) Lenovo X230:

    - Same CPU/GPU
    - Same RAM, but it's easy to expand, so W/E.
    - X230 has a smaller (12.5") screen, both use IPS. Mac wins because it's 16:10 though.
    - Mac has an optical drive, X230 doesn't since it's technically an ultrabook, but..
    - X230 weight less than 3 pounds. Dimensions are comparable.
    - 7 or so hours of battery life with a 4-cell battery, 6-cell is $20 and brings it up to 9 hours.
    - Won't touch ergonomics, they're personal for many people. Both brands have their proponents and detractors. Trackpoint was the dealmaker for me.

    Price: $1200 vs $832 (via the US Apple/Lenovo websites). Paying by VISA will save you another 20%, which brings the total down to $670 and is in line with my statement of "pay twice more." As far as I'm aware, Apple very rarely has anything in terms of sales or discounts with the student discount at my school being a measly 5% (might be different in US though). For Lenovo, current coupon code is (if I'm not mistaken) THINK920, might be CAPTHINK920. There's almost always a 10-20% discount on some models. Now it's 12%, which is what I've used above to get $832. VISA discount is automatic at transaction.

    If optical drive is a big deal, the T430s is also comparable to this Macbook, with 2 options (one has 520M video card, another i5 3320 instead of 3210). The difference is it lacks an IPS screen, but then Lenovo's aren't meant for graphics by any stretch. It's a bit bigger at 14.1" and weighs 3.74 pounds (my friend just got one). Weight they give on the site is for the heaviest possible configuration (2 extra batteries in expansion bays) so it can be ignored). Has an option for a 1600x900 screen though. Does cost a bit more than the X230 but can still be purchased for around 900 or so with a Visa card for the Blu-Ray writer.

    Both laptops are fully customizable during purchase so you can get more features (i.e. fingerprint scanner), or less. Both also have an mSATA slot - can be used for an SATA3 SSD in addition to regular hard drive or an integrated 4G card.

    Won't touch the $2200 Macbook Pro Retina - for one, I never claimed anything about very specific, or very high-end models. For two, no-one makes retina screens. And for three, I don't see any use for them on a Windows machine: everything is going to be extremely tiny (goodbye eyesight), or isn't going to be scaled properly.
    Last edited by Don Julio Anejo; 2012-09-26 at 02:39 AM.
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    As much as I adore and would love to sing praises of Mac products... Wal-Mart does not sell Macbooks. Even if we ignore Mindfreak's budget issues (double-price discussion aside, Apple doesn't directly make a sub-900 notebook), that's a big problem for Mindfreak.

    That said, I would second all caution about buying laptops on Wal-Mart layaway. The computers you see on their shelves are likely going to be what the industry refers to as "consumer grade," which is a nice way of saying "the cheapest we can get because we companies don't like spending money on you." This is a sweeping generalization that isn't always true, but if you want to get a computer with some amount of reliability, you want to start looking at an Office or Small Business line. The major players already offer their own payment plans or Bill Me Later if you absolutely must buy on layaway.

    From the information you've given us, one thing I'd like to point out is that your brother does not necessarily want a "gaming" laptop. There are apparently people that run Team Fortress 2 on Windows 98. Virtually any modern laptop with an i3 processor and a single gig of RAM can run the game. Maybe not at the highest graphics settings (that'll be more a function of getting good video card/chipset with the computer), but it'll be able to play the game and you can still frag your hordes or whatever it is you do in that game perfectly fine.

    If it were me (and I rarely spend even $75 on someone else- much less so for my siblings- so yeah, maybe I'm just a mean ol' scrooge), I'd actually get something like this for both of your siblings. A quick search got me to a fan site saying it'll run TF2 on medium to high settings. I personally prefer a 7200rpm hard drive, though, but it looks like the market's heading towards 5400 and I can't have nice things. Potentially because of the ubiquity of tablets, a lot of the 17" laptops (the kind that would have a number pad, which your sister might want) made now are made with "desktop replacement" in mind, and focus on being bulky and expensive (which your sister might not want). That's not to say they're not there, just that you'll have to look harder than the 5 minutes I have.

    Here's an option that's from Wal-Mart. Given that it's a 15" with a numpad, I don't really see it being a comfortable keyboard, but perhaps your store would have a display unit to see for yourself.
    Last edited by OracleofWuffing; 2012-09-26 at 05:38 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo View Post
    Also, the inane Samsung lawsuit, but that's beside the point and probably against forum rules.
    The whole iphone debacle in China must have you positively giddy with schadenfreude then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    I personally prefer a 7200rpm hard drive, though, but it looks like the market's heading towards 5400 and I can't have nice things.
    These days, if you really want decent disk performance from a laptop you need to go SSD--7200rpm 2.5" drives are usually intended for large servers, so they don't usually put them in laptops. Consider yourself lucky, I remember when 4200rpm was the standard spindle speed for a laptop hard drive!

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    Hey Rawhide, is there any chance we could change the forum rules to forbid Mac vs Windows and iPhone vs Android debates? It could fall under "religion" for some folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo View Post
    Recommending a high-end Macbook Pro to someone who specifically wanted a sub-$1000 laptop that can hopefully play games is.. weird.
    I haven't recommended a high-end MacBook Pro to anyone. It was a comment that it could do all the things someone claimed laptops couldn't. It's well out of the original poster's budget (something I made sure to comment on) and was never recommended for them.

    ---

    What is the quality of the screen like on the non-Apple laptop? What about the quality of the keyboard? And the quality of the touchpad (I've used them before, the ThinkPad ones are terrible)? How about the connectors and the quality of the power supply (you know that MacBook power supply connectors are magnetic?)? The little touches on all of the other little things?

    As for sale prices, I have seen them discounted by 10% or more (that includes brand new models about a month old), and even more commonly with bundles/included extras (which, if you want what's in the bundle, can be a really good deal). Apple store online is a terrible way to compare, as it almost never discounts, and this is for a reason, they do not want to undercut their resellers. What you see there is RRP, not street price.

    There are many, many elements that go into the creation of these laptops that increase their price within reason, when those things are important to you. If they aren't important to you, then the expense will be wasted. But the whole claim of being 2x the price is a load of bull.

    I'm not saying that Macs are for everyone, and I'm definitely not claiming them to be cheap. All I am saying is that the prices are justified when everything in the construction and development of the systems is taken into consideration. If the features they have don't matter to you, then the expense won't be worth it for you.

    I'm no Mac fanboi, nor do I think they are the perfect answer to every question, but I do hate the bashing of Apple/Mac products based on myths and untruths, the same way in which, while I don't think it's the best browser by any stretch, I also hate the bashing of IE based on myths and untruths.

    ---

    Also, why won't you consider the retina display ones? Especially since those were exactly the machines I was talking about before you said anything, and the machines I challenged people to match.

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    What exactly is retina display? I figured it was just meaningless marketing jargon, but you're talking about it like it's something special.
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