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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    As I understand it, indulging your vice does usually get you willpower back but ONLY when it hinders you and/or the group, quite specifically. (At least, in WoD core. I can't recall if this rule was over-ridden for Mage or not).

    This is a similar situation, but Thanqol isn't merely invoking that rule, as such.
    Though trying to continue as you would have anyway and still claim the willpower bonus would probably get you scowled at, at the very least.

    If Tessen(or a theoretical fifth mage instead) really would gain the most possible pleasure in the immediate scenario by defeating evil/resolving the problem, then you could always express that by having Straw McFifthwheel muscle in on Turings ritual to try to solve the issue themselves, or take things too far and start actively attacking the prisoner in order to strike against the spirit, etc etc.
    Purely theoretically, the detriment doesn't need to be immediate so much as undeniable. Indulging lightly in your vice now, even if it has some small benefit, should still grant a point of willpower if it will obviously born your long term plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    Yes, Turing clearly has this well in hand and knows exactly what he's doing, and totally isn't Making **** Up.

    [/liarjack]
    "I've got death! Death is like spirit. I mean, they've both got the same rote, and everything. I know for a fact soul jar will work! Let's soul jar this mutha."

    "Dude, your answer to these things is always soul jar."

    Spirits man, what can you do?

    EDIT: Oh, I should probably make a thing for this on my character sheet, but Turing's current Willpower is 4, since he spent a dot a little while ago. Also, I'm assuming he also has to roll the dice to avoid doing something Vice-worthy?
    I've decided that whenever I enter a new scene I am going to list my relevant expendables in bold at the start. This means willpower, glamour, and appropriate long range penalties. Also, an update whenever the numbers shift. I lose track otherwise. I only know where my glamour is because after harvesting, both changelings ends up with 7.

    Also, pretty sure your vice is optional. You aren't gonna get that willpower back though, otherwi-- wait, a dot? Did you spend willpower for the dice boost, or did you actually drop a permanent dot? The dot is totes more expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
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    He's right, but not all the way right. Saber's words to him, that his way is the way of the tyrant, are also correct. Alexander lived in a world where he could reward his friends and slay his enemies, traveling from country to country and taking what he wanted. But by Saber's time that was no longer possible, and it's arguable whether it was even possible for Alexander, since his kingdom dissolved upon his death. Yes, he lived as he wished to live and earned admiration for his strength of character, but his way was no more correct than Saber's. He established no law, no proper succession, nor did he care for the weak and helpless. His rule was the rule of wolves, preying upon the weak.
    Can you argue this, Thanqol? I've seen you declare Celestia a benevolent tyrant. This doesn't seem any different. A tyranny is not diminished because the tyrant is a swell chap.

    Geez, it's like not having the spirit arcana when dealing with spirits is causing us a problem or something.
    I cannot ever not play a Thrysus. I can see value in other arcana, but Spirit is the long-term change one (which is also stubbornly insistent on being highly mutable in the short term. I feed on irony-verging-to-stupidity). Prime, Spirit, Life. A sort of trifecta, perfect for expressing my ideals.

    There's a glaring weakness couched in there, I can feel it.


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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    So we roll again, Composure+Gnosis?

    What if we fail? Turing is obvious, because he's doing the Death+Gnosis check, but the rest of us aren't doing anything that takes a penalty are we?
    No, you're not doing anything that needs a check made immediately. The Spirit just used the only power it has that's really appropriate in this situation. It's kind of a one trick pony in this regard.

    I'm not quite sure what Amun would do if he failed, either. I suppose with his vice he might decide to take a more active part, which probably wouldn't work well, but I'm not sure whether he'd derive any joy from that.

    It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun?
    Depressingly typical for Mages.

    But again, there's a crack dealer on the corner outside.

    Can you argue this, Thanqol? I've seen you declare Celestia a benevolent tyrant. This doesn't seem any different. A tyranny is not diminished because the tyrant is a swell chap.
    Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

    A lot can get done under a benevolent, competent tyrant. You can luck out and get an amazing monarch. Problem is what happens when that monarch dies and the system of government says you have to crown Prince Blueblood.

    I cannot ever not play a Thrysus. I can see value in other arcana, but Spirit is the long-term change one (which is also stubbornly insistent on being highly mutable in the short term. I feed on irony-verging-to-stupidity). Prime, Spirit, Life. A sort of trifecta, perfect for expressing my ideals.

    There's a glaring weakness couched in there, I can feel it.
    The weakness is that these Arcana leave you without Transmission.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-09-26 at 06:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    No no, Jack knows plenty of ways to bring himself joy. I even came up with two seperate ideas for ways he could give into the urge and joy it up here and now, immediately. (Exuberant, carefree dance or wildly experimental musical improv).

    And if he really needed a hit of pure, instant joy, who needs the dealer? I'm sure he has an mp3 of Baker Street on his phone. Would work for Jack just as well as it works for me.

    Jack knows how to have fun.
    Jack is quite unlike Kotomine Kirei in many ways.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun?
    For me, part of it is the setting. As I mentioned, Tessen derives pleasure from her work, and outside of that I think her main pleasures are her radio show and relaxing in various ways, such as a hot bath or a nap in a comfy bed or the like. This particular setting is so hostile to letting one's guard down that it made it hard for me to think about joy. Tessen is a middle-class suburban girl. Sure, part of her is used to Detroit, but there's still totally a part that is thinking about how many germs there are in this crack house. Makes it hard to relax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

    A lot can get done under a benevolent, competent tyrant. You can luck out and get an amazing monarch. Problem is what happens when that monarch dies and the system of government says you have to crown Prince Blueblood.
    "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -Winston Churchill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    The weakness is that these Arcana leave you without Transmission.
    For some strange reason, I haven't had call to use that rote yet.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    And, finished Fate:Zero. Tiki, I believe you had some comments you were reserving.
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    Thought #1: damn, Lancelot is tall.
    Thought #2: That was awesome.
    Thought #3: Thanqol, that's how you decided on the verse for the plate, isn't it?

    Okay, so let's see. Maybe I'll do this by character.

    Rider: A large-hearted idiot. I love him, even though I think he's a numbskull. He is by far one of the most stand up fellows I have ever seen and being his friend would totally rock. His death was noble right up to the last instant, and he made such a big difference in Waver's life, which was very cool of him.

    Berserker: Sadly predictable. And man, if Saber was messed up before that, his reveal and parting words completely shattered her psyche. I was a little disappointed in him, and I think his madness weakened him. In the stories Lancelot was always the greater knight than Arthur, impossible to unhorse and undefeated in battle, save by his own son, Galahad. Arthur shouldn't be able to win a fight against the true Lancelot.

    Also, I believe Tiki already commented on the existence of Guenevere, so I'll just say that I found that equally amusing and I wonder if Guen ever knew that she had married another woman, or if Arturia kept up the masquerade her whole life.

    Gilgamesh: I'm surprised, I really like Gilgamesh. He's still basically a horrible rapist at some level, and he pulled a pretty sick mind-warp on Kotomine Kirei, but I just like him. He's got a lot of confidence and appreciates the world in a certain way that I appreciate watching, even though he cares nothing for morality. He is everything that's wrong with monarchy, even more so than Rider ever was, yet there is an admirable quality to his belief in himself.

    Kirei: A sociopath. I thought there might have been more, some discovery, some meaning behind the man, but there was not. He's sick and his death at Shirou's hands was well deserved. I laughed a little as I watched him hand the dagger that would someday kill him to Rin. As an aside, I really don't get someone like Kiritsugu would reserve a technique against Kirei for later. If Kiritsugu had gone straight to 4x acceleration before Kirei realized it, instead of starting with 2x and letting Kirei adjust, I think Kiritsugu could have just put a bullet in Kirei's head.

    Kiritsugu: Utilitarian theory taken to its utter extreme. And also what happens when you never even consider taking a third option. Once I saw him kill Natalia, I spent a while wondering why he didn't consider sneaking into the airport and preventing them from depressurizing the plane. Get a pressure seal over one hatch, pop it and go in with a hazmat suit and flamethrower. Get Natalia out, double checking every part of her for bees and keeping everything in quarantine, then incinerate the whole plane.
    He made the right choice at the end, finally. He was a damn fool when it came to Saber, however. He could have told her the truth, even as he gave the commands and walked away. Just say "it's cursed" and she might have understood, or at least had time to contemplate it. Just like she understood what he had been after their conversation by the car. She might never have liked him, but she would have worked with him, and I think by ignoring her, he contributed in great part to her psychic injury.
    Oh, and no kid should have to shoot his Dad. That was some messed up stuff.

    Saber: Her failure was so complete, so absolutely and utterly complete, that she couldn't hear anything that was said to her during Fate:Zero, not really. I'm amazed that Shirou was able to get through to her, quite frankly. Rider was right when he told her never to regret, and it's as though Lancelot's words that all believed she was the greatest king were as dust on the wind. Left to herself and with her honor and nobility insulted by her own master, most especially with the death of Lancer, I think the entire arc was a spiral into despair for her. Knowing how things came out in the end made it bearable, but I still just wanted to hug her. In all of Fate:Zero she is judged and insulted. Even Rider's dialogue is an insult, a claim that she was wrong. There was nobody to tell her that it was okay, that anything she did was worthwhile. Maybe that's why Shirou got through to her.

    Kariya Matou: Pathetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

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    Actually, not very many comments in reserve.
    Basically, I kind of liked Kiritsugu but he was a rather total idiot. Not the only one in the series, of course. His end goal was arguably admirable, but every step along the way he was a little bit wrong.
    Specifically his treatment of Saber (which wasn't so much rude as directly harmful to his own efforts, the numpty) and especially the fiasco with Lancer's Master in the final showdown.

    I assume the flashback interlude was supposed to build up some measure of sympathy for Kiritsugu, but I'm not sure it did for me particularly. His abandonment of Heroism was so early and so total that his arc could only end badly, and as you said he didn't even try to deal with the airplane situation without resorting to murdering his only friend. The only thing he did unquestioningly right was reject the grail once it finished delivering it's all-too-accurate verdict on his methods.

    Worth noting, he didn't have to shoot his Dad. He took that upon himself, without so much as blinking. No wonder he didn't manage to live up to being a hero.

    Having seen it in reverse, Zero first, I was slightly dissapointed he wasn't in Stay Night in person, actually. It would have been nice to see how he might have grown, given the chance.

    Rider was vaguely puppylike for the most part. On an interpersonal level he was a nice enough guy, too. Incredibly patronising though. Luckily enough for both of them, Waver(?) is also insecure and uncritical enough to take Rider's papa-bear patronising at face value. I was dissapointed Waver never really had any dealings with Lancer's master, really. Or made any real effort at proving what he had set out to, that blood-line wasn't everything. (Which on reflection was probably more of a throw-forward to Shirou, I guess, rather than something they were going to investigate in Zero, but that's slightly beside the point).
    Rider's death was kind of fittingly fatalistic and pointless to my mind. Hard to say exactly why, it just seemed appropriate somehow.
    Perhaps it's the Alexander the great thing? Cause lots of chaos, talk the talk, big up your legendaryness and then get your ass kicked in a largely meaningless fight. No elephant this time though.

    Berserker seemed, to me, a slightly wasted character in Zero. Firstly I'm just not sure the visual design was as good as the other characters, or even Stay Night's Berserker. He was a lot cooler once the helmet came off, but it all happened so late in the story.

    Gilgamesh was a great character and a terrible monstrosity. I do very much prefer his depiction in Carnival Phantasm, though. The childishly compulsive behaviour, the insistance that everything is his, interfering in a race he isn't even in because he just has to be first. Loved it. Also, I'm not sure he did anything as such to Kotomine Kirei. He just saw through the priest before Kirei understood himself, and liked what he saw. It was less mind-screw and more half-heartedly attempted seduction, perhaps.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
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    Gilgamesh was a great character and a terrible monstrosity. I do very much prefer his depiction in Carnival Phantasm, though. The childishly compulsive behaviour, the insistance that everything is his, interfering in a race he isn't even in because he just has to be first. Loved it. Also, I'm not sure he did anything as such to Kotomine Kirei. He just saw through the priest before Kirei understood himself, and liked what he saw. It was less mind-screw and more half-heartedly attempted seduction, perhaps.
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    I don't agree about messing with Kirei. There was a hesitation in Kirei, particularly while his Dad was still alive. He knew he was unsatisfied, but wasn't going to face it and might well have just done what he was told. Particularly after he had lost all his seals and assassin was gone, his own thought was to just hang out and not think too much. His conversation with Gilgamesh forced him to confront his own inner desires and directly led to the return of his command seals. And it was Gilgamesh who made him the offer to remove Tokiomi Tohsaka, a move he would never have undertaken without Gilgamesh's blessing due to the high risk it posed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Fate'ns

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Fate
    Actually, not very many comments in reserve.
    Basically, I kind of liked Kiritsugu but he was a rather total idiot. Not the only one in the series, of course. His end goal was arguably admirable, but every step along the way he was a little bit wrong.
    The low wisdom solution.

    Specifically his treatment of Saber (which wasn't so much rude as directly harmful to his own efforts, the numpty) and especially the fiasco with Lancer's Master in the final showdown.
    Kiritsugu couldn't stand Saber. He hated her! He made this much very clear during their single conversation. Saber hated him back. Them staying as far apart as possible was probably a better decision than them being together.

    One of the three times he addressed her it was a direct order beginning with "My puppet"

    I assume the flashback interlude was supposed to build up some measure of sympathy for Kiritsugu, but I'm not sure it did for me particularly. His abandonment of Heroism was so early and so total that his arc could only end badly, and as you said he didn't even try to deal with the airplane situation without resorting to murdering his only friend. The only thing he did unquestioningly right was reject the grail once it finished delivering it's all-too-accurate verdict on his methods.
    Yep. You'll notice that the only person who ends the story happy is the guy who doesn't murder/attempt to murder anyone.

    Low wisdom does not deliver good results.

    Rider's death was kind of fittingly fatalistic and pointless to my mind. Hard to say exactly why, it just seemed appropriate somehow.
    Perhaps it's the Alexander the great thing? Cause lots of chaos, talk the talk, big up your legendaryness and then get your ass kicked in a largely meaningless fight. No elephant this time though.
    Yeah, totally agree. The best way he could have gone out.

    Berserker seemed, to me, a slightly wasted character in Zero. Firstly I'm just not sure the visual design was as good as the other characters, or even Stay Night's Berserker. He was a lot cooler once the helmet came off, but it all happened so late in the story.
    I forgive everything about his visual design because he used a F-15 as his Noble Phantasm.

    Gilgamesh was a great character and a terrible monstrosity. I do very much prefer his depiction in Carnival Phantasm, though. The childishly compulsive behaviour, the insistance that everything is his, interfering in a race he isn't even in because he just has to be first. Loved it.
    I loved the image of Gilgamesh obsessing over motorcycle magazines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    And, finished Fate:Zero. Tiki, I believe you had some comments you were reserving.
    Thought #1: damn, Lancelot is tall.
    Thought #2: That was awesome.
    Thought #3: Thanqol, that's how you decided on the verse for the plate, isn't it?
    No, not at all. That inspiration came from a source on the internet.

    Berserker: Sadly predictable. And man, if Saber was messed up before that, his reveal and parting words completely shattered her psyche. I was a little disappointed in him, and I think his madness weakened him. In the stories Lancelot was always the greater knight than Arthur, impossible to unhorse and undefeated in battle, save by his own son, Galahad. Arthur shouldn't be able to win a fight against the true Lancelot.
    Well she couldn't when Lancelot was flying a F-15 around.

    Gilgamesh: I'm surprised, I really like Gilgamesh. He's still basically a horrible rapist at some level, and he pulled a pretty sick mind-warp on Kotomine Kirei, but I just like him. He's got a lot of confidence and appreciates the world in a certain way that I appreciate watching, even though he cares nothing for morality. He is everything that's wrong with monarchy, even more so than Rider ever was, yet there is an admirable quality to his belief in himself.
    Yeah, I think there's this fascinating transition between Zero Gil and Fate Gil. Fate Gil has no redeeming features and is basically an asshat. Zero Gil is still an asshat but he's somehow... respectable about it. His pride seems more an aspect of himself and less of his hate of the world.

    He claims the Grail didn't corrupt him, but it clearly did. Just in a very subtle way, barely distinguishable from his own douchebaggery.

    Kirei: A sociopath. I thought there might have been more, some discovery, some meaning behind the man, but there was not. He's sick and his death at Shirou's hands was well deserved. I laughed a little as I watched him hand the dagger that would someday kill him to Rin.
    Oddly, there's a sequence in Heaven's Feel that really puts a different slant on Kotonime. It's hard to dismiss him as purely hollow without factoring in that.

    As an aside, I really don't get someone like Kiritsugu would reserve a technique against Kirei for later. If Kiritsugu had gone straight to 4x acceleration before Kirei realized it, instead of starting with 2x and letting Kirei adjust, I think Kiritsugu could have just put a bullet in Kirei's head.
    I always err in favour of assuming the magic martial arts wizard knows the best way to use his magic martial arts. He typically used the Accel to reload and dodge, not to accelerate his shots, implying he couldn't speed up his bullets. Kirei seemed adept enough at parrying bullets to imply that it wouldn't have made much difference.

    Kiritsugu: Utilitarian theory taken to its utter extreme. And also what happens when you never even consider taking a third option. Once I saw him kill Natalia, I spent a while wondering why he didn't consider sneaking into the airport and preventing them from depressurizing the plane. Get a pressure seal over one hatch, pop it and go in with a hazmat suit and flamethrower. Get Natalia out, double checking every part of her for bees and keeping everything in quarantine, then incinerate the whole plane.
    Kiritsugu is not immune to the police, and if he boards a passenger jet with a flamethrower the Department of Homeland Security is probably going to have some words with him.

    He made the right choice at the end, finally. He was a damn fool when it came to Saber, however. He could have told her the truth, even as he gave the commands and walked away. Just say "it's cursed" and she might have understood, or at least had time to contemplate it.
    Kiritsugu hated Saber and didn't care if she suffered. He had no motivation to make her life the slightest bit easier.

    Incidentally, have you seen the bit where they explain why the Grail is cursed yet?

    Saber: Her failure was so complete, so absolutely and utterly complete, that she couldn't hear anything that was said to her during Fate:Zero, not really. I'm amazed that Shirou was able to get through to her, quite frankly. Rider was right when he told her never to regret, and it's as though Lancelot's words that all believed she was the greatest king were as dust on the wind. Left to herself and with her honor and nobility insulted by her own master, most especially with the death of Lancer, I think the entire arc was a spiral into despair for her. Knowing how things came out in the end made it bearable, but I still just wanted to hug her. In all of Fate:Zero she is judged and insulted. Even Rider's dialogue is an insult, a claim that she was wrong. There was nobody to tell her that it was okay, that anything she did was worthwhile. Maybe that's why Shirou got through to her.
    I'm not sure anyone ever told her that anything she ever did was worthwhile.
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    More Fate (I'm paying attention to mage too, just waiting on Turing to finish up the exorcism so we can get rolling).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Fate'ns

    Yeah, totally agree. The best way he could have gone out.
    Triple agree. Rider's death was basically perfect for him.

    I forgive everything about his visual design because he used a F-15 as his Noble Phantasm.
    That's actually a pretty good reason to forgive things. Though I think Saber could have taken him even on the F-15 if she hadn't been busy prepping to take down Cthulu.

    No, not at all. That inspiration came from a source on the internet.
    You're gonna have to narrow that one down just a teensy bit, I think maybe "a source on the Internet" might be a bit vague. Y'know, maybe.


    He claims the Grail didn't corrupt him, but it clearly did. Just in a very subtle way, barely distinguishable from his own douchebaggery.
    It's hard to say if it was the grail or just being stuck in the mortal world for 10 years and waiting for Saber. He doesn't really do anything in Stay/Night until dealing with Saber, and he's also responding to Shirou as basically another man stealing his property, so we get all his worst properties in Stay/Night and nobody like Fate:Zero Rider who can get Gilgamesh into his better moods.

    Oddly, there's a sequence in Heaven's Feel that really puts a different slant on Kotonime. It's hard to dismiss him as purely hollow without factoring in that.
    Any attempt to get that visual novel is going to have to wait a little while for me, for reasons I can't really disclose.

    I always err in favour of assuming the magic martial arts wizard knows the best way to use his magic martial arts. He typically used the Accel to reload and dodge, not to accelerate his shots, implying he couldn't speed up his bullets. Kirei seemed adept enough at parrying bullets to imply that it wouldn't have made much difference.
    That's a fair assumption, and it's possible that Kiritsugu either did make a mistake or had a good reason for not just jumping to full acceleration right away. But I do think it likely that the show authors got a little lazy there and just went into standard "anime fight sequence" writer mode for that one.

    Kiritsugu is not immune to the police, and if he boards a passenger jet with a flamethrower the Department of Homeland Security is probably going to have some words with him.
    Not a good enough reason. You've raised several potential snags in my suggested plan, but that doesn't mean he should have taken the low wisdom solution and killed a person he thought of as his mother. Maybe he could have posed as a CDC guy, coming in with word that the plane had a major infectious disease. Or hell, swallow his pride and call in the church and mages' association on this one and be like "hey guys, that plane, filled with zombies and super bees, don't let anybody open it, k?" If he showed up at the airport with an entire hazmat team of mages and executors, people would have taken that seriously.

    Incidentally, have you seen the bit where they explain why the Grail is cursed yet?
    Um, maybe? I've seen all of stay/night and Zero now, but I'm not sure which part you're talking about. They explained to Kiritsugu that the grail only works based on what the wisher comprehends, which is why it leads to mostly killing. And in Stay/Night, Saber and Shirou figured out near the end that the grail only grants wishes with death and destruction and that it could never give Saber what she wanted.

    I'm not sure anyone ever told her that anything she ever did was worthwhile.
    Shirou got close. He told her he cared about her, didn't want her to leave, and that no matter how badly she thought things had gone, she should be proud of what she did and do her best to move on, rather than erase herself and her deeds.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    You're gonna have to narrow that one down just a teensy bit, I think maybe "a source on the Internet" might be a bit vague. Y'know, maybe.
    Deliberately, I don't want you to know what I'm up to.

    It is Mage-specific though.

    He doesn't really do anything in Stay/Night until dealing with Saber, and he's also responding to Shirou as basically another man stealing his property,
    Ho-ho, Shirou ain't stolen nothin' yet.

    Not a good enough reason. You've raised several potential snags in my suggested plan, but that doesn't mean he should have taken the low wisdom solution and killed a person he thought of as his mother. Maybe he could have posed as a CDC guy, coming in with word that the plane had a major infectious disease. Or hell, swallow his pride and call in the church and mages' association on this one and be like "hey guys, that plane, filled with zombies and super bees, don't let anybody open it, k?" If he showed up at the airport with an entire hazmat team of mages and executors, people would have taken that seriously.
    Lot of ifs, buts and risks involved in that one. Kiritsugu seems more the kind of guy to get a bullet donation from the Church/Mage's Association than a backup team.

    Also the Church is Nasuverse code for the Seers of the Throne.

    Um, maybe? I've seen all of stay/night and Zero now, but I'm not sure which part you're talking about. They explained to Kiritsugu that the grail only works based on what the wisher comprehends, which is why it leads to mostly killing. And in Stay/Night, Saber and Shirou figured out near the end that the grail only grants wishes with death and destruction and that it could never give Saber what she wanted.
    No, no, see, the Grail used to actually work as advertised. Otherwise someone would have cottoned on to the idea that something was seriously wrong with the ritual before this point and they should stop doing it.

    Then some frickin' geniuses come up with an awesome idea, you guys, to win the Grail for sure and ruined it in the process.

    Shirou got close. He told her he cared about her, didn't want her to leave, and that no matter how badly she thought things had gone, she should be proud of what she did and do her best to move on, rather than erase herself and her deeds.
    Yeah, before that point I don't think there was anyone.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-09-26 at 08:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    No, no, see, the Grail used to actually work as advertised. Otherwise someone would have cottoned on to the idea that something was seriously wrong with the ritual before this point and they should stop doing it.

    Then some frickin' geniuses come up with an awesome idea, you guys, to win the Grail for sure and ruined it in the process.
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    I'm not sure, having only completed one arc of Stay Night and started the second, but I suspect that that information is prooobably not in Stay Night or Zero. My guess is it's in the sequel to Stay Night, whatever that was called, assuming you've seen that and I haven't just made it up. I'm vaguely aware of the facts involved, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Yahahr Fates

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    Deliberately, I don't want you to know what I'm up to.

    It is Mage-specific though.



    Ho-ho, Shirou ain't stolen nothin' yet.



    Lot of ifs, buts and risks involved in that one. Kiritsugu seems more the kind of guy to get a bullet donation from the Church/Mage's Association than a backup team.

    Also the Church is Nasuverse code for the Seers of the Throne.



    No, no, see, the Grail used to actually work as advertised. Otherwise someone would have cottoned on to the idea that something was seriously wrong with the ritual before this point and they should stop doing it.

    Then some frickin' geniuses come up with an awesome idea, you guys, to win the Grail for sure and ruined it in the process.



    Yeah, before that point I don't think there was anyone.
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    Hmm, so is it Unlimited Blade Works or Heaven's Feel where they explain how the grail was messed up, or am I just forgetting something I should have been paying attention to earlier?

    Regarding the plane thing, you're right, lots of risks. Maybe my suggested plans suck. You probably know more about the Fate universe than me, and neither of us knows exactly how much Kiritsugu knew at the time. But it doesn't matter because almost anything is better than killing Natalia and blowing the plane out of the sky like he did. It was horrible and the wrong thing to do, just like choosing to murder his own Dad was wrong, no matter how necessary it might have been. So, he should have come up with something else, even if that meant bringing in the equivalent of the seers of the throne. They're not infallible, he might have effectively dealt with the bee problem, gotten Natalia out and made a break for it. Maybe they both die or get captured. Maybe there's a better plan that avoids the church. But what Kiritsugu did was the wrong call.
    Ho-ho, Shirou ain't stolen nothin' yet
    Wait...what?
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
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    I'm not sure, having only completed one arc of Stay Night and started the second, but I suspect that that information is prooobably not in Stay Night or Zero. My guess is it's in the sequel to Stay Night, whatever that was called, assuming you've seen that and I haven't just made it up. I'm vaguely aware of the facts involved, though.
    If it's not in Stay Night then it's definitely in Heaven's Feel. That's the path where they really focus on the nature of the Grail itself.

    I haven't seen any Stay Night sequels, if they exist. I think there's such a thing. I've seen pictures of Saber with white battle armour?

    But what Kiritsugu did was the wrong call.
    Yes. His morals are not admirable and they do not lead him to bright places.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun?
    Speak for yourself - Turing has whiskey and he can probably find a stray cigarette

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "I've got death! Death is like spirit. I mean, they've both got the same rote, and everything. I know for a fact soul jar will work! Let's soul jar this mutha."

    "Dude, your answer to these things is always soul jar."
    Actually, to use his exact thoughts:

    "Well, ghosts and spirits are both sort of fuzzy and ephemeral. And the goetic demon thinks we have a shot. Besides, I'm pretty sure the Baron can handle both.

    ...Now if I only knew how to perform an exorcism in the first place."

    Also, pretty sure your vice is optional. You aren't gonna get that willpower back though, otherwi-- wait, a dot? Did you spend willpower for the dice boost, or did you actually drop a permanent dot? The dot is totes more expensive.
    Naw, just poor wording. I meant I spent a point rather.

    I cannot ever not play a Thrysus. I can see value in other arcana, but Spirit is the long-term change one (which is also stubbornly insistent on being highly mutable in the short term. I feed on irony-verging-to-stupidity). Prime, Spirit, Life. A sort of trifecta, perfect for expressing my ideals.
    The more I've been thinking about the paths, the more I notice a Thyrsus streak in myself. There's a glimmer of Acanthus there too, but it's all glazed over by Obrimos.

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    Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

    A lot can get done under a benevolent, competent tyrant. You can luck out and get an amazing monarch. Problem is what happens when that monarch dies and the system of government says you have to crown Prince Blueblood.
    Don't even joke about that >.>
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Is there any check we could take to estimate how effective our proposed thanksgiving dinner will be before we start it? Occult perhaps?
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Is there any check we could take to estimate how effective our proposed thanksgiving dinner will be before we start it? Occult perhaps?
    No, you know that you've got to cover as many bases as possible. You know that it will be effective but how well you do it will determine how effective.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    Amun relaxed a bit, but only a bit. "I think having a dead body around is very bad for the atmosphere, so lets get rid of that first of all.
    "Is it just me or is this place getting a little corpsy?"

    If he was actually dead that kind of utter indifference would have been a -1 penalty on the Wisdom roll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "Is it just me or is this place getting a little corpsy?"

    If he was actually dead that kind of utter indifference would have been a -1 penalty on the Wisdom roll.
    I suppose the wording did come out very unfortunate. I don't feel his tone would have been quite as indifferent as the words. It wasn't meant as utter indifference ("let's just throw him on the compost heap and move on") as much as ... calmly rational. Amun is not highly reverent or anything, so he's not going to suggest a big funeral ceremony or otherwise making a big deal about a dead guy, but I don't like to think he's without feeling either.

    Looking at it, it really was stupid. Also unnecessary because they're not exactly ignoring the corpse. Ah well. Sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth with the best of intentions.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    I suppose the wording did come out very unfortunate. I don't feel his tone would have been quite as indifferent as the words. It wasn't meant as utter indifference ("let's just throw him on the compost heap and move on") as much as ... calmly rational. Amun is not highly reverent or anything, so he's not going to suggest a big funeral ceremony or otherwise making a big deal about a dead guy, but I don't like to think he's without feeling either.

    Looking at it, it really was stupid. Also unnecessary because they're not exactly ignoring the corpse. Ah well. Sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth with the best of intentions.
    Heh, that's ai'ight. But just keep in mind that Wisdom loss is the process of becoming okay with killing people. By definition, succeeding a degeneration roll is your character going "Oh my god that was a horrible, horrible thing that just happened and I'm not going to become that person". The process of becoming inured to killing is the process of losing wisdom.

    A coldly rational response may be appropriate for the character, but if he can look at and be partially responsible for a death and not have some kind of emotional reaction - even on the inside - then that's a sure sign he's lost Wisdom.

    Remember, it's not an actual moral code, it's there to represent psychological stability in the face of horror and to remind players that most people are not okay with killing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Heh, that's ai'ight. But just keep in mind that Wisdom loss is the process of becoming okay with killing people. By definition, succeeding a degeneration roll is your character going "Oh my god that was a horrible, horrible thing that just happened and I'm not going to become that person". The process of becoming inured to killing is the process of losing wisdom.

    A coldly rational response may be appropriate for the character, but if he can look at and be partially responsible for a death and not have some kind of emotional reaction - even on the inside - then that's a sure sign he's lost Wisdom.

    Remember, it's not an actual moral code, it's there to represent psychological stability in the face of horror and to remind players that most people are not okay with killing.
    Yeah. I think in hindsight I'd simply have him ask what should be done with the man.

    But I'll roll with it and try to salvage it instead. Way I see it, the stress and horror of it all is making Amun sort of shut down to not think about it, and so he blurted out something awful. People do that, you know, shut down when something terrible happens and only later, when things have calmed down, does the shock and realization really hit them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Fedora View Post
    Deadly, a delightfully daring drawer and drafter of dissertations. Defying the dictations of our disparate denizens, Deadly decides his direction with a dirth of dependence on the decisions of despotic desperados. Deadly detests dismissive derision, and will debate any dude or dame that dares to detest discussion.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    Yeah. I think in hindsight I'd simply have him ask what should be done with the man.

    But I'll roll with it and try to salvage it instead. Way I see it, the stress and horror of it all is making Amun sort of shut down to not think about it, and so he blurted out something awful. People do that, you know, shut down when something terrible happens and only later, when things have calmed down, does the shock and realization really hit them.
    Works for me,

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    I am a little confused in this case though. Didn't our goetic demon buddy tell us that this body was basically a shell for the joy spirit and there wasn't anything left to salvage? I guess it turned out the guy was still alive, but if it had been basically a walking corpse animated by a spirit, that wouldn't count for wisdom degeneration, would it?
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I am a little confused in this case though. Didn't our goetic demon buddy tell us that this body was basically a shell for the joy spirit and there wasn't anything left to salvage? I guess it turned out the guy was still alive, but if it had been basically a walking corpse animated by a spirit, that wouldn't count for wisdom degeneration, would it?
    Don't trust everything Goetic Demons tell you.

    The Demon said exorcising the spirit would probably kill the guy, but wasn't specifics on the whys or whens. The human spirit was alive in there, just terribly abused and likely to die if exorcised. It's quite probably a charitable thing to do to put him out of his misery now but he's not 100% doomed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Don't trust everything Goetic Demons tell you.
    I am shocked. Deeply shocked.

    Edit: I also found a nice picture of the Nasuverse and everyone in it. (pretty huge image)
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    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-09-27 at 02:28 PM.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Edit: I also found a nice picture of the Nasuverse and everyone in it. (pretty huge image)
    Also some pretty massive spoilers if you're at all concerned about such things.

    I was actually considering doing something like this. I find myself disappointed that the chart does not acknowledge both Caster and Rin's huge crushes on Saber.

    Also, I got you guys preseeeeeeeents~!

    Mirror Man:

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    Errant:

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    Jerusalem Man:

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    I got seven more of these for when you meet the right people! =D
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I got seven more of these for when you meet the right people! =D
    Anticipation~
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post

    I got seven more of these for when you meet the right people! =D
    This is how I feel about that.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Thanqol, you bastard! Why is the only reliable Thyrsus with an entirely different organization that we haven't even really dealt with yet that is probably going to further derail any hope we have of staying on schedule?

    Why?
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Question; Is Captain Rushaw known for being a life mage? Specifically given that I picked him for the "someone who owes your character" bit, and put it as because jack had helped him out on an artifact recovering caper.

    Which should mean that there's a good chance that Jack would know whether it was worth calling in that favour, which is to say he might have an idea if Rushaw goes beyond the 1/2 dot kinda stage of life mastery?

    And would it be fair to assume Jack has his number, or are they quiet about it?

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Thanqol, you bastard! Why is the only reliable Thyrsus with an entirely different organization that we haven't even really dealt with yet that is probably going to further derail any hope we have of staying on schedule?

    Why?
    Kurosawa is reliable! Errant is also reliable.

    Also, sadism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Question; Is Captain Rushaw known for being a life mage? Specifically given that I picked him for the "someone who owes your character" bit, and put it as because jack had helped him out on an artifact recovering caper.

    Which should mean that there's a good chance that Jack would know whether it was worth calling in that favour, which is to say he might have an idea if Rushaw goes beyond the 1/2 dot kinda stage of life mastery?

    And would it be fair to assume Jack has his number, or are they quiet about it?
    He's at least an Adept, sure. And yes he has a phone.
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