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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Oh, by the way, on the whole Abyss is a force of nature vs Abyss as hostile dimension thing... have a look at Mage p273.
    That totally clarifies everything

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    There's a legacy from worshipping the gate I think. I'm not entirely sure it's something you choose so much as what happens when you talk about the gate.
    There is, although the Seers book makes it sound like following the Gate is something that happens to you, rather than exactly being intentional.

    Of course, these are the guys who are getting dream-messages from possibly non-existent evil (?) gods (?) in the sky (?), so what's that extra little bit of weird.

    Also, I'm not sure about the Gate controlling the abyss quite so much. Where is that from? I mean, it's possible but conceptually doesn't sit well with me so I'd like to look into it.
    I like the Gate so much primarily because all the source material is so vague that you can go absolutely crazy with it and generate all sorts of nifty plot hooks and/or timebombs.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    (6d10)[3][8][2][9][4][4](30) this message is too short, pony.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    That totally clarifies everything

    There is, although the Seers book makes it sound like following the Gate is something that happens to you, rather than exactly being intentional.

    Of course, these are the guys who are getting dream-messages from possibly non-existent evil (?) gods (?) in the sky (?), so what's that extra little bit of weird.
    Yeah. There is that.

    I like the Gate so much primarily because all the source material is so vague that you can go absolutely crazy with it and generate all sorts of nifty plot hooks and/or timebombs.
    I have no problem
    With made-up-for-game stuff. I'm only slightly wigged out about it being canon. Couldn't tell you why. It's less a well-formed thought and more general unease, then.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    So, um, I'm a little confused by all this action. Everyone seems to get two or three actions for every one Amun gets, but that may just be an illusion

    So, anyway, I do get to act right? But it's always after the enemy? So ... I'm not sure if the enemy has acted yet, that is if whatever Amun does next will be preceded by the enemy doing something which could possibly make Amun's action pointless?

    Also, I assume I can now see what's going on? Not that I'm quite sure what to do, but at least knowing the situation helps. Celestial fire seems like a nicely vulgar way to escalate everything even further, but I guess neither Slade nor Tessen seem to worry much about being vulgar at this point so maybe I shouldn't either.

    I assume Prime sight doesn't give a whole lot of information? No enemy spells to counter or something, maybe? He does have counterspelling as a rote, IIRC. If he could break whatever magic makes these people shoot at each other, maybe that'd help.

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  5. - Top - End - #1025
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    So, um, I'm a little confused by all this action. Everyone seems to get two or three actions for every one Amun gets, but that may just be an illusion
    Amun's actions just resolve after everyone else's. At this point you've moved twice and are in melee range; you now have clear line of sight and effect and you can start taking direct action.

    EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.

    So, anyway, I do get to act right? But it's always after the enemy? So ... I'm not sure if the enemy has acted yet, that is if whatever Amun does next will be preceded by the enemy doing something which could possibly make Amun's action pointless?
    I am actually declaring the enemy's intentions a turn in advance. This round they wasted firing empty guns, next round they're moving towards the enemy.

    Also, I assume I can now see what's going on? Not that I'm quite sure what to do, but at least knowing the situation helps. Celestial fire seems like a nicely vulgar way to escalate everything even further, but I guess neither Slade nor Tessen seem to worry much about being vulgar at this point so maybe I shouldn't either.
    No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!

    I assume Prime sight doesn't give a whole lot of information? No enemy spells to counter or something, maybe? He does have counterspelling as a rote, IIRC. If he could break whatever magic makes these people shoot at each other, maybe that'd help.
    Prime sight gives you information on the Death spell animating the zombies; however, one odd aspect of prime is that countering a spell is Prime 2, dispelling a spell is Prime 4 (Unless you have a dot in the relevant Arcanum, in this case Death - though there's also a Mind spell on the zombies and on the dude).

    On the plus side, these zombies are not particularly physically imposing. They're just really durable.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-13 at 07:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Amun's actions just resolve after everyone else's. At this point you've moved twice and are in melee range; you now have clear line of sight and effect and you can start taking direct action.

    EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.
    Yeah. I don't think the OOC and dice rolling is a problem, but the separation of physical and magic actions definitely threw me off. I saw Tessen act to pick up the clips, and then a few posts later she acted again and I was like, "wait, did we just skip to next round?"

    Probably also how I think Turing took that first shot retroactively, kinda, and then moved on to this round's shots. All in all, a little confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I am actually declaring the enemy's intentions a turn in advance. This round they wasted firing empty guns, next round they're moving towards the enemy.
    That might have added to the confusion too. Good to know

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!
    Ah, good, because that's definitely the impression Amun is getting of Slade, that he's a huge fool and that saving his sorry hide is a waste of time because he's probably just going to do something incredibly foolish again later. Like run headlong into the next blatantly obvious trap without a word of explanation

    But ... you know, Amun is a nice guy, deep down, so he'll try his best to salvage the situation anyway. If nothing else then for the sake of everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Prime sight gives you information on the Death spell animating the zombies; however, one odd aspect of prime is that countering a spell is Prime 2, dispelling a spell is Prime 4 (Unless you have a dot in the relevant Arcanum, in this case Death - though there's also a Mind spell on the zombies and on the dude).

    On the plus side, these zombies are not particularly physically imposing. They're just really durable.
    Hmm ... well, it was a nice idea

    So I'm reduced to either lots of vulgar celestial fire which I really don't feel Amun would do unless there was no other way to end this, or some subtly helpful fate or time stuff to help someone else. Any other ideas now that he can actually see the action?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Fedora View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #1027
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Oh, one question, the third guy who just shot the woman zombie, did he look like he did that intentionally or was he probably aiming for Slade or Tessen and simply missed? Because if he shot the woman intentionally, that makes him a possible ally trying to help, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Fedora View Post
    Deadly, a delightfully daring drawer and drafter of dissertations. Defying the dictations of our disparate denizens, Deadly decides his direction with a dirth of dependence on the decisions of despotic desperados. Deadly detests dismissive derision, and will debate any dude or dame that dares to detest discussion.

  8. - Top - End - #1028
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Pretty sure that the new gunperson is being controlled by Slade, as his vulgar way of attacking.

    You do have the rote that makes horrible injuries less horrible and Slade seems incapable of avoiding being wounded, so, there's that.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I have no problem
    With made-up-for-game stuff. I'm only slightly wigged out about it being canon. Couldn't tell you why. It's less a well-formed thought and more general unease, then.
    Ok, that's understandable. Though I would argue they want you to be a little uneasy around the Gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Amun's actions just resolve after everyone else's. At this point you've moved twice and are in melee range; you now have clear line of sight and effect and you can start taking direct action.

    EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.
    Yeah, timezones make combat kinda weird.

    No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!
    Yeah, both as Turing the Guardian, and as an OOC dude who's worried that we're going to tear reality a new one (in the bad kind of way), I suggest we all focus on covert effects for a while...

    On the plus side, these zombies are not particularly physically imposing. They're just really durable.
    Oh, sudden thought - is the Death dispelling line of sight, or closer range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Pretty sure that the new gunperson is being controlled by Slade, as his vulgar way of attacking.

    You do have the rote that makes horrible injuries less horrible and Slade seems incapable of avoiding being wounded, so, there's that.
    Agreed on both points.
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  10. - Top - End - #1030
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.
    The burst of speed with anomaly was bad, but there's a reasonable chance it saved Slade's life and it put Tessen in position to act while basically screwing up the rest of you. Not sure if it was worth it, but Tessen thinks it was.

    Here's how I think the round structure went
    Turn 1
    Tessen slams into Slade and makes a sound burst that blows out everyone's ears. Zombies fire, Turing draws his weapon and fails his spellcast, Amun and Jack advance.

    Turn 2
    Tessen tries (and fails) to interpose herself between Slade and the bullets and casts a spell to disarm the guns. The zombies shoot again using their last bullet, Turing shoots and misses and his spell cast failed (or never happened due to rectonning timing on the soul marks cast), Jack and Amun advance. Amun casts a spell to avoid being seen, which fails but doesn't matter because we're being distracting.

    Turn 3
    Tessen grabs clips, no spell cast. Turing fires and hits for at least one damage, after finally casting death sight successfully. Slade wakes up, casts a vulgar spell like a damn fool, further injuring himself, and tries to get his gun out. Zombies shoot empty guns, wasting their turn. Amun advances, Jack advances and tries to cast a fate bad luck spell, which fails.

    Turn 4
    Tessen draws the gun from Slade and calls a lightning bolt down upon the zombies (currently unresolved). Zombies advance (currently unresolved)


    No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!
    To further clarify, there have been a total of 3 vulgar spells cast.
    1. Slade's burst of speed (idiot)
    2. Tessen's burst of speed (I let the anomaly happen)
    3. Slade's mind control on the third shooter (idiot)

    It would be very bad if you cast any vulgar spells, as they would roll a minimum of 2 dice for a paradox (and that's only if you cast a rote with a magical tool, otherwise it's 3+). If you did cast, I suggest expending mana to reduce the dice pool.

    I realize this is slightly misleading, but all of Tessen's subsequent actions including the sonic explosion and the lightning bolt on the zombies were covert. Forces is weird like that.



    Thanqol, an interesting effect of this new paradox rule in play. I think it's slightly disempowering to slower-posting players. Under the old rule, everyone had their own paradox ticker, so every player could be somewhat confident about casting at least one vulgar spell per scene (at worst you take 1 lethal damage to avoid the first paradox), meaning that every player could try and do at least one really cool/powerful effect. Under the new rule, because the NPC cast two vulgar spells and I, as a generally quickly-posting player, capitalized and cast one as well, the remainder of the party can no longer cast their own vulgar spells without incurring significant risk.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-13 at 01:33 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #1031
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Well, I'm pretty fine either way, to be quite honest, as in and out of character, Jack and Myself will be avoiding Vulgar like the plague.

    It certainly has an impact, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Pretty sure that the new gunperson is being controlled by Slade, as his vulgar way of attacking.

    You do have the rote that makes horrible injuries less horrible and Slade seems incapable of avoiding being wounded, so, there's that.
    Oh, right. Somehow I didn't connect those two events, but it certainly makes sense

    You mean Shifting the Odds? I suppose I could use that to grant Slade some luck against whatever the next attack is, maybe? I think since there are two zombies it would only protect against whichever one of them attacks first? I'm not entirely sure.

    I could protect him against magic, that's Prime 3, but I don't have Fate or Time 3 to actually protect him against anything physical, except one attack at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I realize this is slightly misleading, but all of Tessen's subsequent actions including the sonic explosion and the lightning bolt on the zombies were covert. Forces is weird like that.
    Ah, right. That's good, at least

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Thanqol, an interesting effect of this new paradox rule in play. I think it's slightly disempowering to slower-posting players. Under the old rule, everyone had their own paradox ticker, so every player could be somewhat confident about casting at least one vulgar spell per scene (at worst you take 1 lethal damage to avoid the first paradox), meaning that every player could try and do at least one really cool/powerful effect. Under the new rule, because the NPC cast two vulgar spells and I, as a generally quickly-posting player, capitalized and cast one as well, the remainder of the party can no longer cast their own vulgar spells without incurring significant risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Well, I'm pretty fine either way, to be quite honest, as in and out of character, Jack and Myself will be avoiding Vulgar like the plague.

    It certainly has an impact, however.
    Yeah, I don't think Amun would be inclined to use anything vulgar either, especially now. All of his vulgar magic is going to be improvised too, so there's that. In this particular situation, none of what Amun is likely to do is going to be very big or spectacular, or even especially helpful. Which does suck a little for me right now, but you can't shine in every situation. I just hope whatever we deal with next will be something where I can think of something awesome for Amun to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    Yeah, I don't think Amun would be inclined to use anything vulgar either, especially now. All of his vulgar magic is going to be improvised too, so there's that. In this particular situation, none of what Amun is likely to do is going to be very big or spectacular, or even especially helpful. Which does suck a little for me right now, but you can't shine in every situation. I just hope whatever we deal with next will be something where I can think of something awesome for Amun to do
    Is that just because there aren't any vulgar effects you want, or is it because the high amount of paradox dice are discouraging the use of vulgar effects?

    Earlier on, if we all had our own paradox tracker, you could have potentially used vulgar time magic to accelerate yourself at minimal risk (although that might take more dots than you have). And you could still whip out the celestial fire for zombie-blasting, which would have minimal risk if you had your own paradox tracker instead of a communal one.

    I'm not saying the current system is bad, necessarily, but I am curious how much of your incentives are based on IC desire to avoid vulgar effects and how much is based on the fact that a vulgar spell will roll a lot of bad dice right now.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Is that just because there aren't any vulgar effects you want, or is it because the high amount of paradox dice are discouraging the use of vulgar effects?

    Earlier on, if we all had our own paradox tracker, you could have potentially used vulgar time magic to accelerate yourself at minimal risk (although that might take more dots than you have). And you could still whip out the celestial fire for zombie-blasting, which would have minimal risk if you had your own paradox tracker instead of a communal one.

    I'm not saying the current system is bad, necessarily, but I am curious how much of your incentives are based on IC desire to avoid vulgar effects and how much is based on the fact that a vulgar spell will roll a lot of bad dice right now.
    I was avoiding Vulgar magic back when I picked the Rotes, though it was easy to do for an Acanthus given that Time/Fate is mostly covert.
    Which is to say, Both, I suspect. IC avoidance, OOC avoidance, and Homebrew rules only reinforcing an existing decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Is that just because there aren't any vulgar effects you want, or is it because the high amount of paradox dice are discouraging the use of vulgar effects?

    Earlier on, if we all had our own paradox tracker, you could have potentially used vulgar time magic to accelerate yourself at minimal risk (although that might take more dots than you have). And you could still whip out the celestial fire for zombie-blasting, which would have minimal risk if you had your own paradox tracker instead of a communal one.

    I'm not saying the current system is bad, necessarily, but I am curious how much of your incentives are based on IC desire to avoid vulgar effects and how much is based on the fact that a vulgar spell will roll a lot of bad dice right now.
    Well, obviously, if there were no consequences at all there'd be no reason to not use vulgar magic all the time and we'd have a very different setting. Likewise, if the consequences are very extreme and very likely to be incurred, then you'd have to be a very special kind of person to even consider vulgar magic except in possibly equally extreme situations.

    So both IC and OOC I think the fact that you try to avoid vulgar magic is simply because it has consequences and these consequences are both bad enough and likely enough for any reasonable person to care.

    I suppose you could have a character who objects to vulgar magic on principle, even if it has no consequences of any kind, but such a character would be rare.

    I feel that a single paradox tracker for an area, regardless of how many people you cram together in that space, makes sense.

    The only vulgar magic I can think of which would be useful here, and which Amun can perform, is Celestial Fire. This could be a good way to end the fight, and if he could do it with minimal chance of bad things happening, then he might certainly consider it.

    Edit: He might also have been more inclined to use something vulgar back in the tower if he had suspected things were going to end anything like this. But he didn't really have any information to base a decision on, which is why he didn't chase after Slade like Tessen did or try to stop him (more likely, given lack of Time 3)
    Last edited by Deadly; 2012-11-13 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Fedora View Post
    Deadly, a delightfully daring drawer and drafter of dissertations. Defying the dictations of our disparate denizens, Deadly decides his direction with a dirth of dependence on the decisions of despotic desperados. Deadly detests dismissive derision, and will debate any dude or dame that dares to detest discussion.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to


    Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to

    [snip]

    Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.
    I bet that'd be a fun game


    So anyway, you're all waiting for me to post, aren't you? I'm still rather blank, so ... what should Amun do, if it was up to you?
    Last edited by Deadly; 2012-11-13 at 04:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Fedora View Post
    Deadly, a delightfully daring drawer and drafter of dissertations. Defying the dictations of our disparate denizens, Deadly decides his direction with a dirth of dependence on the decisions of despotic desperados. Deadly detests dismissive derision, and will debate any dude or dame that dares to detest discussion.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Well, you could always take what little strength you have (Twice the dice Jack has) and attempt to grapple? I think you'd probably be taking an un-proficient penalty, but it might be small enough that you'd not be rolling a chance dice?

    What does Amun want to achieve?

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to


    Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.
    How would that work? Paradox isn't affected by disbelief itself, and anecdotally this exact thing is why it's not possible* to regrow limbs or give someone a permanent body swap. Something about the more familiar the abyss gets with awakened magic, the more it eats away at it.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-13 at 05:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Well, you could always take what little strength you have (Twice the dice Jack has) and attempt to grapple? I think you'd probably be taking an un-proficient penalty, but it might be small enough that you'd not be rolling a chance dice?

    What does Amun want to achieve?
    I did consider that. I'm thinking I could boost my chances with Fate/Time.

    Amun wants to end this mess as fast as they can. He's not especially concerned about Slade, more with making sure the attacks stop, which obviously is two sides of the same coin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    How would that work? Paradox Ian affected by disbelief itself, and anecdotally this exact thing is why it's not possible* to regrow limbs or give someone a permanent body swap. Something about the more familiar the abyss gets with awakened magic, the more it eats away at it.

    I've never met Paradox Ian, so I'm unfamiliar with his views on the subject.


    Well, I'm unsure, but I seem to recall the Thanqol take being that specifically paradox WAS to do with sleeper disbelief.

    More importantly, such a character only has to believe that it would work that way. He doesn't have to be correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post

    Edit: He might also have been more inclined to use something vulgar back in the tower if he had suspected things were going to end anything like this. But he didn't really have any information to base a decision on, which is why he didn't chase after Slade like Tessen did or try to stop him (more likely, given lack of Time 3)
    And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

    Curse you, fate mages!

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    How would that work? Paradox isn't affected by disbelief itself, and anecdotally this exact thing is why it's not possible* to regrow limbs or give someone a permanent body swap. Something about the more familiar the abyss gets with awakened magic, the more it eats away at it.
    I agree with SiuiS here. Vulgar magic is vulgar because it's breaking the laws of the universe in some way, regardless of who can see it. You get around that by making a demense, and it's possible that if you could somehow awaken enough people, the whole world could be converted into a giant demense with enough soul energy. That would be neat.

    This is the first time I've thought of this and it's definitely not something I'm planning in any context whatsoever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    [S]

    Well, I'm unsure, but I seem to recall the Thanqol take being that specifically paradox WAS to do with sleeper disbelief.

    More importantly, such a character only has to believe that it would work that way. He doesn't have to be correct.
    Sleeper disbelief makes paradox more likely to happen because it draws the attention of the abyss. If sleepers believe what you're doing is science or technology, the fact that they're observing you doesn't affect your magic: no extra paradox dice, no paradox rolls for improbable covert spells. However, the base paradox chance on vulgar spells is still there.

    Also, I think that disbelief still unravels a spell eventually due to being observed by many eyes, even if all the sleepers think it's still science, as that effect seems to be subconscious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

    Curse you, fate mages!
    And I realize he could have used Momentary Flux to know that a well-placed banana peel would have been a really clever idea just then


    Also, after looking at it, I don't think Shifting the Odds can be used to grant bonuses or penalties on anything, that's either Perfect Timing or Evil Eye, both of which would be improvised for Amun.

    I guess trying to tackle a zombie is still the best thing he can do.

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    Edit: something I've been thinking about. For spells that normally auto succeed, could you consider letting them auto succeed with 1 success in combat?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    Ok, that's understandable. Though I would argue they want you to be a little uneasy around the Gate.
    I'm not uneasy about the Gate hirself, really. It's the idea that the Exarchs have control of the game's uncontrollable third faction, that stinks of poor dues ex machina. I prefer to think of the gate as not an exarch, or at least not of the throne - the guy no one wants to mess with, everyone both loathes and appeases.

    I find it funny that the concept isn't even new, and has been around for a long time in various media, including the Lost Brother, the ninth Kami who fell to the underworld and now sits guard at its door.

    Which just means Legend of the Five Rings game books are actually a set of daimonomicae which leave one sympathetic to the gate should they awaken.

    Yeah, timezones make combat kinda weird.
    I hate to say it, but I think you'd benefit from a bit not egamist structure. Have a list posted every now and then showing order, mundane action, magic action. Pull a pony avatar thread, post the list in a spoiler in every one of the ST's posts? So no matter what discussion is going on, you could see this


    Spoiler
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    character: mundane | magic

    Tessen: Run and tackle | reduce friction
    Slade: draw weapon | (?????)
    Zombie: Shoot Slade | N/A
    Turing: shoot zombie | (undecided)
    Amun: Run | blow off zombie arm


    This way you can see at a glance, that even if Amun blows of the zombie arm, it's possible for that to happen after they successfully shoot Slade (or miss), allowing people not to have to wait but still enslaved by the cruel calculus of initiative actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post

    I've never met Paradox Ian, so I'm unfamiliar with his views on the subject.


    Well, I'm unsure, but I seem to recall the Thanqol take being that specifically paradox WAS to do with sleeper disbelief.

    More importantly, such a character only has to believe that it would work that way. He doesn't have to be correct.
    No, I mean, given "common knowledge" of the abyss and paradox, what is his justification for doing so? Does he not know this, disregard it, feel
    He knows better?

    I'm in the same boat. If death being a thing which happens to all people (something my main character feels is good) and that is a product of the throne, then is overthrowing the Exarchs really a good idea? I mean the moral, ethical thing to do is just continue being an Exarch yourself, connotatively. So why bother replacing them, if new boss is same as the old boss? His response was leaning toward "if awakening all mankind would blow the world as we know it apart, I don't care."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

    Curse you, fate mages!
    My acanthus is developing a humorous situation-based crush on Amun, even though they're in separate universes and said Acanthud doesn't actually exist yet.

    Also, I think that disbelief still unravels a spell eventually due to being observed by many eyes, even if all the sleepers think it's still science, as that effect seems to be subconscious.
    Which really sucks, because it means some things can retroactively paradox.

    Going back to my hypothetical zoo-
    For some reason, middle of the night, no witnesses, a low-wisdom sorcerer has to cut off a gorilla's arm. Because flick gorillas, I don't like primates. But he doesn't want anyone to know he was there! Except a lion ate the gorilla arm, so he can't reattach it. Well, life lets you transform things, so he transforms the gorilla into the same gorilla, but with both arms.

    Next day, after about an hour of visitors, the gorilla's arm is disbelieved and he hilariously plummets to his doom while brachiating. An arm disappearing mid-sleeper crowd tips them off, does this cause paradox?

    The "high" wisdom Solution is to give the gorilla a manly piercing enchanted with a permanent shift power.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-13 at 06:54 PM.
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    Uh, not sure I entirely understand the question, but essentially, if we're discussing the motivations of mr Hypothetical "Flashy" McArcanist, then I figure the kind of person who looks for an excuse to use as much Vulgar magic as possible is very much likely to be the sort who is very convinced of his own excellence and that he knows better.

    Half formed thought chain;
    Alright, so if we assume that vulgar magic still provokes paradox simply via what it is, because the abyss is watching but that sleeper disbelief is something that directly makes it significantly more likely, then surely if sleepers believed in magic, then that's a significant slice of your paradox risk gone forever.

    Which does require the character in question to reject the idea that people knowing about magic erodes it, but I personally feel that's a silly idea anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

    Curse you, fate mages!
    Summon 18-wheeler >.>

    I agree with SiuiS here. Vulgar magic is vulgar because it's breaking the laws of the universe in some way, regardless of who can see it. You get around that by making a demense, and it's possible that if you could somehow awaken enough people, the whole world could be converted into a giant demense with enough soul energy. That would be neat.

    This is the first time I've thought of this and it's definitely not something I'm planning in any context whatsoever.
    Amazingly bad idea of the day: the world itself technically has a soul, the Anima Mundi, accessible via the Astral. Figure out a ritual to shave off a piece and make a giant soul stone and have a worldwide demense with less work.

    Or, y'know, a planet that is constantly hemorrhaging Wisdom, whatever that means...

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I'm not uneasy about the Gate hirself, really. It's the idea that the Exarchs have control of the game's uncontrollable third faction, that stinks of poor dues ex machina. I prefer to think of the gate as not an exarch, or at least not of the throne - the guy no one wants to mess with, everyone both loathes and appeases.
    Actually, I think the Seers book makes a point that the Exarchs don't exactly trust the Gate. As far as they're concerned, her existence is a necessary evil. Also, it's not entirely clear he's an Exarch.

    Further, the Gate doesn't exactly control the Abyss. More like serving as a, well, gatekeeper. Things can still poke through without permission, but part of the job description of the Gate's Legacy is helping put down unauthorized or unneeded visitors.

    I hate to say it, but I think you'd benefit from a bit not egamist structure. Have a list posted every now and then showing order, mundane action, magic action. Pull a pony avatar thread, post the list in a spoiler in every one of the ST's posts? So no matter what discussion is going on, you could see this


    Spoiler
    Show
    character: mundane | magic

    Tessen: Run and tackle | reduce friction
    Slade: draw weapon | (?????)
    Zombie: Shoot Slade | N/A
    Turing: shoot zombie | (undecided)
    Amun: Run | blow off zombie arm


    This way you can see at a glance, that even if Amun blows of the zombie arm, it's possible for that to happen after they successfully shoot Slade (or miss), allowing people not to have to wait but still enslaved by the cruel calculus of initiative actions.
    Yeah, this might not be a bad idea. Maybe as a summary after each round of posting?

    I'm in the same boat. If death being a thing which happens to all people (something my main character feels is good) and that is a product of the throne, then is overthrowing the Exarchs really a good idea? I mean the moral, ethical thing to do is just continue being an Exarch yourself, connotatively. So why bother replacing them, if new boss is same as the old boss? His response was leaning toward "if awakening all mankind would blow the world as we know it apart, I don't care."
    Speaking as a Moros, Death is absolutely not part of the Lie. At least, not in all its forms. Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs. Overthrowing the Exarchs would no more stop death than anything else would. It might make deaths more meaningful, or less horrible in some measure, but Death as metaphysical concept isn't going anywhere.

    Which really sucks, because it means some things can retroactively paradox.

    Going back to my hypothetical zoo-
    For some reason, middle of the night, no witnesses, a low-wisdom sorcerer has to cut off a gorilla's arm. Because flick gorillas, I don't like primates. But he doesn't want anyone to know he was there! Except a lion ate the gorilla arm, so he can't reattach it. Well, life lets you transform things, so he transforms the gorilla into the same gorilla, but with both arms.

    Next day, after about an hour of visitors, the gorilla's arm is disbelieved and he hilariously plummets to his doom while brachiating. An arm disappearing mid-sleeper crowd tips them off, does this cause paradox?

    The "high" wisdom Solution is to give the gorilla a manly piercing enchanted with a permanent shift power.
    I'm pretty sure Thanqol addressed this with the hypothetical grazing car scenario, and came up on the side of "If a magical effect is indistinguishable from existing science or technology, or simply isn't ever observed to be magic, Disbelief doesn't apply that way."

    I blame the book's vagueness for why Disbelief is kind of spotty to apply.

    EDIT: Further justification - you could use the same line of reasoning to argue that the Healing Heart spell can't "really" heal you, unless you stay out of Sleeper's sight until after your body would normally have healed - it's a question of degree.
    Last edited by the_druid_droid; 2012-11-13 at 08:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    Ah, good, because that's definitely the impression Amun is getting of Slade, that he's a huge fool and that saving his sorry hide is a waste of time because he's probably just going to do something incredibly foolish again later. Like run headlong into the next blatantly obvious trap without a word of explanation

    But ... you know, Amun is a nice guy, deep down, so he'll try his best to salvage the situation anyway. If nothing else then for the sake of everyone else.
    You notice how Slade is kind of terrible at his job?

    (This is a hint!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly View Post
    Oh, one question, the third guy who just shot the woman zombie, did he look like he did that intentionally or was he probably aiming for Slade or Tessen and simply missed? Because if he shot the woman intentionally, that makes him a possible ally trying to help, right?
    Aiming for zombies.

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    Oh, sudden thought - is the Death dispelling line of sight, or closer range?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    The burst of speed with anomaly was bad, but there's a reasonable chance it saved Slade's life and it put Tessen in position to act while basically screwing up the rest of you. Not sure if it was worth it, but Tessen thinks it was.

    Here's how I think the round structure went
    Aye.

    Thanqol, an interesting effect of this new paradox rule in play. I think it's slightly disempowering to slower-posting players. Under the old rule, everyone had their own paradox ticker, so every player could be somewhat confident about casting at least one vulgar spell per scene (at worst you take 1 lethal damage to avoid the first paradox), meaning that every player could try and do at least one really cool/powerful effect. Under the new rule, because the NPC cast two vulgar spells and I, as a generally quickly-posting player, capitalized and cast one as well, the remainder of the party can no longer cast their own vulgar spells without incurring significant risk.
    This is a feature and not a bug. When a bunch of Mages get together and start throwing vulgar magic at each other then everything gets awful and terrible and that's how it's meant to be. This isn't a game where everyone's meant to get an opportunity to show off their awesome meaningful effects.

    This is a game where you think REALLY LONG and REALLY HARD before attacking another Mage, even one you otherwise hate, because the ramifications of fighting him could include the deaths of both sides at the hands of Abyssal monsters. This is a game where you and your bitter arch-rival consent to honourable duels because the alternative is exactly this kind of paradox crapstorm. This is a game where a loose cannon can not only harm you, but bring down the entire team.

    This is a game where a plausible explanation for why Detroit is so utterly screwed up is "Mage War".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to


    Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.
    Plenty of factions share that goal. They tend to use Sleeper sleight of hand, accentuated only at the most important points with Covert magic, so they can achieve the goal of disabusing people of their beliefs on reality than going out and throwing Vulgar magic around.

    Throwing Vulgar magic around at every opportunity will result in your death by Paradox or Guardian of the Veil before it disabuses the Sleepers of their notions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Sleeper disbelief makes paradox more likely to happen because it draws the attention of the abyss. If sleepers believe what you're doing is science or technology, the fact that they're observing you doesn't affect your magic: no extra paradox dice, no paradox rolls for improbable covert spells. However, the base paradox chance on vulgar spells is still there.
    Imagine, Sleeper souls are straining to reach the Supernal. They're pushing up against the boundaries of the Abyss, unable to cross it. When they witness Supernal magic, their souls take an extra step - and stumble into the Abyss outright because they're not ready to make the jump. And that does more harm to their souls than it does good.

    This is popular Pentacle opinion.

    Also, I think that disbelief still unravels a spell eventually due to being observed by many eyes, even if all the sleepers think it's still science, as that effect seems to be subconscious.
    Hooey. Disbelief is an active effect triggered by Sleepers disbelieving something.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I'm not uneasy about the Gate hirself, really. It's the idea that the Exarchs have control of the game's uncontrollable third faction, that stinks of poor dues ex machina. I prefer to think of the gate as not an exarch, or at least not of the throne - the guy no one wants to mess with, everyone both loathes and appeases.
    What, you think it's dues ex machina that the guys who are the gods of everything and reality control the Abyss, after having created it for their own purposes?

    Also, the Exarchs fight each other. All the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Uh, not sure I entirely understand the question, but essentially, if we're discussing the motivations of mr Hypothetical "Flashy" McArcanist, then I figure the kind of person who looks for an excuse to use as much Vulgar magic as possible is very much likely to be the sort who is very convinced of his own excellence and that he knows better.

    Half formed thought chain;
    Alright, so if we assume that vulgar magic still provokes paradox simply via what it is, because the abyss is watching but that sleeper disbelief is something that directly makes it significantly more likely, then surely if sleepers believed in magic, then that's a significant slice of your paradox risk gone forever.
    See, I think this guy basically misunderstands how awful the Abyss is.

    In this Anomaly Paradox, cars are flying around and all kinds of magical stuff is happening - but no one's going 'oh wow'. None of them are getting closer to Awakening. Instead they're all just kind of registering this as horrible proof that they live in a hostile and uncaring universe where awful things happen all the time for no reason. None of the people on this street are going to Awaken after seeing this.

    Which does require the character in question to reject the idea that people knowing about magic erodes it, but I personally feel that's a silly idea anyway.
    I sympathise with this belief.

    Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs.
    That's what makes it so insidious! We say, "Oh, because it's Supernal it has to be true".

    What if the Watchtower of the Lead Coin was, itself, false?
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-13 at 08:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    Summon 18-wheeler >.>



    Amazingly bad idea of the day: the world itself technically has a soul, the Anima Mundi, accessible via the Astral. Figure out a ritual to shave off a piece and make a giant soul stone and have a worldwide demense with less work.

    Or, y'know, a planet that is constantly hemorrhaging Wisdom, whatever that means...



    Actually, I think the Seers book makes a point that the Exarchs don't exactly trust the Gate. As far as they're concerned, her existence is a necessary evil. Also, it's not entirely clear he's an Exarch.

    Further, the Gate doesn't exactly control the Abyss. More like serving as a, well, gatekeeper. Things can still poke through without permission, but part of the job description of the Gate's Legacy is helping put down unauthorized or unneeded visitors.



    Yeah, this might not be a bad idea. Maybe as a summary after each round of posting?



    Speaking as a Moros, Death is absolutely not part of the Lie. At least, not in all its forms. Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs. Overthrowing the Exarchs would no more stop death than anything else would. It might make deaths more meaningful, or less horrible in some measure, but Death as metaphysical concept isn't going anywhere.



    I'm pretty sure Thanqol addressed this with the hypothetical grazing car scenario, and came up on the side of "If a magical effect is indistinguishable from existing science or technology, or simply isn't ever observed to be magic, Disbelief doesn't apply that way."

    I blame the book's vagueness for why Disbelief is kind of spotty to apply.

    EDIT: Further justification - you could use the same line of reasoning to argue that the Healing Heart spell can't "really" heal you, unless you stay out of Sleeper's sight until after your body would normally have healed - it's a question of degree.
    Reading the book for these debates is awesome. Several clarifications.

    1. pg 113-114 specifically points out that vulgar spells still have some chance of paradox, even if you convince sleepers that it's not magic. So that point is very clear Vulgar and disbelief are not the same.
    2. pg 274 says that unraveling only applies to vulgar spells.
    3. pg 119 explains that any spell with a duration of "lasting" such as the example of healing heart, make effects that are part of the natural world and remain even when the magic is gone. Thus, disbelief can never remove the healing from healing heart, even when it's cast in a vulgar manner to remove aggravated damage.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    This is a feature and not a bug. When a bunch of Mages get together and start throwing vulgar magic at each other then everything gets awful and terrible and that's how it's meant to be. This isn't a game where everyone's meant to get an opportunity to show off their awesome meaningful effects.

    This is a game where you think REALLY LONG and REALLY HARD before attacking another Mage, even one you otherwise hate, because the ramifications of fighting him could include the deaths of both sides at the hands of Abyssal monsters. This is a game where you and your bitter arch-rival consent to honourable duels because the alternative is exactly this kind of paradox crapstorm. This is a game where a loose cannon can not only harm you, but bring down the entire team.

    This is a game where a plausible explanation for why Detroit is so utterly screwed up is "Mage War".
    Sounds good. My takeaway from this explanation is that Mr. "I'm going to cast a vulgar spell when there's a paradox tornado on the street" Slade is terrible at his job.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-13 at 08:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    Amazingly bad idea of the day: the world itself technically has a soul, the Anima Mundi, accessible via the Astral. Figure out a ritual to shave off a piece and make a giant soul stone and have a worldwide demense with less work.

    Or, y'know, a planet that is constantly hemorrhaging Wisdom, whatever that means...
    Fund it.

    Actually, I think the Seers book makes a point that the Exarchs don't exactly trust the Gate. As far as they're concerned, her existence is a necessary evil. Also, it's not entirely clear he's an Exarch.

    Further, the Gate doesn't exactly control the Abyss. More like serving as a, well, gatekeeper. Things can still poke through without permission, but part of the job description of the Gate's Legacy is helping put down unauthorized or unneeded visitors.

    Admittedly, the gate is an exarch only because he's one of the original blokes to get to the Supernal and cut it off, not because he's enthroned. Pretty sloppy definition but meh.

    Speaking as a Moros, Death is absolutely not part of the Lie. At least, not in all its forms. Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs. Overthrowing the Exarchs would no more stop death than anything else would. It might make deaths more meaningful, or less horrible in some measure, but Death as metaphysical concept isn't going anywhere.
    Well yeah, Death is a thing. I meant death, the notion that everything has a finite span whether or not anything interferes. Humans live for about a century, period. That's an exarch's touch. One progresses the same everywhere; exarch. Spirit and flesh are separate; exarch. And these are all, foundation ally, pretty good things. Theoretically (and my basis is inference from the core, and from what I've read elsewhere; there are no hard and fast rules about any of this) pre-Celestial Ladder, magic was omnipresent, ephemerals and corporeals interacted, and people could die, but didn't necessarily (except lore about ghost summoning belies this, I have a Theory but it's for another time, and preferably In Character), sending their souls off to the related Supernal realm which was instant but reachable. Much like the elemental plains, actually.

    The Exarchs claimed heaven, and the Silver Ladder got pissy because it's their birthright too, and the sundering of the ladder wrought the abyss. during their claim though, the Exarchs structured the world; there was a brief point where the Supernal was unreachable, as it is now, but there was no abyss. Instead of the abyss, your way was barred by an Archmage wielding the source of your power against you. And they restructured the universe, killing Urfarah, separating the two worlds, deeming man a finite creature, limiting time's flow to a steady forward pace, etc. The biggest trouble is that they structured the world specifically to keep everyone else down. I have no qualm with Lords of Heaven, or even with serving them. I have qualms with preventing awakenings, enforcing the quiescence, and making sleeping life what it is. Egalitarian rulership means he who is most able should lead. Exarchs are most able, almost.

    This sounds very Silver Ladder now that I think about it.

    I'm pretty sure Thanqol addressed this with the hypothetical grazing car scenario, and came up on the side of "If a magical effect is indistinguishable from existing science or technology, or simply isn't ever observed to be magic, Disbelief doesn't apply that way."

    I blame the book's vagueness for why Disbelief is kind of spotty to apply.

    EDIT: Further justification - you could use the same line of reasoning to argue that the Healing Heart spell can't "really" heal you, unless you stay out of Sleeper's sight until after your body would normally have healed - it's a question of degree.
    Heart of Healing specifically calls this out, much like some legacies call out that paradox can happen from their powers.

    Also, Thanqol's idea is beautiful, and I approve of it. I am mostly mulling over the book presentation, because it seems like a system that makes sense (from the inside), and I would like to know it well enough today 100% it's bollojs before discarding it. I prefer to master a system before altering it, so I work from 1 action a round period, fighting styles are possible, merit dots can buy gnosis, etc., to learn how bad it can really be.

    Hint; literal reading of fighting styles? It gets retarded. Literally, it conceptually retards sensibility. Goethe low cost of ignoring training requirements and being a world class competitor in great sword, staff and spear fighting, you can bring a heavy weapon, toss a wounded mouse into the center of your enemies, target the mouse, and ignore the armor and defense of all enemies within 3 yards, inflicting 16 dice and two automatic successes, because WoD isn't a combat system.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-13 at 09:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    That's what makes it so insidious! We say, "Oh, because it's Supernal it has to be true".

    What if the Watchtower of the Lead Coin was, itself, false?
    Well, there would have to be an alternate explanation for Moros Awakenings, for one, since in-universe the idea of Awakening is getting in touch with truth (at least to the majority of mages). You could argue that it's all a big trick, but then you don't really have anything left to work with.

    Besides, I'm not really saying that people have to die, just that Death will still be around. Things still end, they still change, and so on some level they die, even if it's conceptual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    3. pg 119 explains that any spell with a duration of "lasting" such as the example of healing heart, make effects that are part of the natural world and remain even when the magic is gone. Thus, disbelief can never remove the healing from healing heart, even when it's cast in a vulgar manner to remove aggravated damage.
    Ok, under this rule the specific example we were talking about with the gorilla wouldn't invoke Disbelief. This is more or less the angle I was approaching it from.

    Sounds good. My takeaway from this explanation is that Mr. "I'm going to cast a vulgar spell when there's a paradox tornado on the street" Slade is terrible at his job.
    Yeah, Turing is going to need to have a chat with people after this one is over...

    EDIT: @Siuis, re: Death - yeah, I'm pretty sure we're actually arguing the same thing at one another. Little 'd' death is at least 50-50 an Exarch thing, so I'm with you there.
    Last edited by the_druid_droid; 2012-11-13 at 08:48 PM.
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