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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    I earned those two successes. I earned them with hard labour.
    So much stuff needed moving. So much stuff.
    I found like 25 worth of small change.

    Eat mildly inconvenient dice-pool penalty!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    The problem is that you know death and I know dispel magic as a rote, but my large number of dice can't affect a death spell. We basically need to gestalt our characters.
    With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-11-16 at 08:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?
    We don't have three hours.


    I hope your labor is completed, don't spend all that cash in one place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Most of that cash has been on the desk for approaching 5 years. (Wild guess).
    I figure a couple of years in a jar on the windowsill won't hurt it any.

    Let's not get hasty.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Thanqol, call lightning says that 3 strikes of lightning on the same turn is vulgar. This implies without stating directly that two strikes of lightning on the same turn is both possible and NOT vulgar. Is that correct?
    Lawyer Pony Avatar by Dirtytabs, exalted as an Eclipse by Elemental, now with a fancy robe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

  5. - Top - End - #1115
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Speaking of, yeah. Is there any problem with me adding a (most likely patheticly failing) spellcasting to my otherwise (pathetically failed) actions of this round before we hit the next one?

    Cause I haven't completely ran out of willpower yet and apparently intend to as I WILL be spending willpower next round either way.

    Edit - You know what? I roll terribly sometimes in person, with real dice. But it usually balances out with WIN and AWESOME eventually. I think I'm going to do the unthinkable and do what I have to in order to make my computer area dice-safe.
    Not...an easy mission.
    I salute you sir. With my hand flat against my head because I've been watching drama of the SAS for the last two weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    The problem is that you know death and I know dispel magic as a rote, but my large number of dice can't affect a death spell. We basically need to gestalt our characters.
    This is why prime is on every character I've ever made. Well actually no, in order it's on every character because Thanqol said the book said it sucked/because it's completely 135% appropriate/ because it's required to actually do anything with spirits. But still!

    Grimoire. Make a grimoire. Not only can you cast out of the grimoire as if you knew the rote, but it's possible that aside from the arcana required, dispell (or counter spell? I'll hit the book in a bit) is a generic spell with generic formula, so your grimoire of Counter X Arcanum could be passed around and used by Jack to counter time space and fate, by Amun to counter time fate and prime, by Turing to counter death matter and X, and by your enemies when they knock you out and take it, with hilarious results!

    I don't understand why Jack and Amun don't spend their time sitting around the lobby in their robes while the test of you walk in and give "good news" at appropriate intervals in the conversations a grand ritual to strengthen the Cabal's luck though. Because if there is one thing that Thanqol will totally allow,it's a magical pony tea party for good luck and precision timing.

    ...

    Is it too late to back out of using Flouresce? XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    I earned those two successes. I earned them with hard labour.
    So much stuff needed moving. So much stuff.
    I found like 25 worth of small change.
    Twenty five pounds of change? That has got to be like, fifty dollars! Or two, in pennies! Stupid heavy pennies.

    With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?
    Combined casting can only be a ritual, although it would make a hell of a merit to let several mages simulcast a rote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Most of that cash has been on the desk for approaching 5 years. (Wild guess).
    I figure a couple of years in a jar on the windowsill won't hurt it any.

    Let's not get hasty.
    You are so very British.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Thanqol, call lightning says that 3 strikes of lightning on the same turn is vulgar. This implies without stating directly that two strikes of lightning on the same turn is both possible and NOT vulgar. Is that correct?
    I would be hesitant to assume white wolf was actually good at designing a tightly packaged, exception-based rules system.
    "No malice. No remorse."

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Waiting on Tessen's action to finish this combat round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    I earned those two successes. I earned them with hard labour.
    So much stuff needed moving. So much stuff.
    I found like 25 worth of small change.

    Eat mildly inconvenient dice-pool penalty!
    Minus two isn't 'mildly inconvenient'. "Fighting in total darkness" is minus three. And these guys, uh, don't have a spectacular offensive dice pool.

    With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?
    Ritual unless it's super awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Thanqol, call lightning says that 3 strikes of lightning on the same turn is vulgar. This implies without stating directly that two strikes of lightning on the same turn is both possible and NOT vulgar. Is that correct?
    I take that to mean that, independently of Sleeper disbelief, inflicting three lightning strikes in a 20 yard radius in three seconds is vulgar; that is, it's so magical the universe sits up and notices without needing Sleepers to see for it. One guy getting hit by two bolts of lightning at the same time still counts as Covert, unless the Sleepers think it's Improbable.

    This is only really relevant if you add target factors or there's multiple Obrimos doing the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    because it's required to actually do anything with spirits. But still!
    It's not, not remotely. It kind of helps with resonance sculpting but you don't need Prime for that.

    Grimoire. Make a grimoire. Not only can you cast out of the grimoire as if you knew the rote,
    This means holding the physical book aloft and chanting the words, consuming a physical action.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-17 at 12:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Ritual unless it's super awesome.
    Solid rule.

    I take that to mean that, independently of Sleeper disbelief, inflicting three lightning strikes in a 20 yard radius in three seconds is vulgar; that is, it's so magical the universe sits up and notices without needing Sleepers to see for it. One guy getting hit by two bolts of lightning at the same time still counts as Covert, unless the Sleepers think it's Improbable.

    This is only really relevant if you add target factors or there's multiple Obrimos doing the same thing.
    So what you're saying is, "hit them with lightning twice, and the second time, have it light them on fire because electricity fires make sense".

    Actually, hell. Zombies. Fire. Why hasn't this already happened?

    It's not, not remotely. It kind of helps with resonance sculpting but you don't need Prime for that.
    You're right. I mistook Some examples as signs of exclusivity an built a narrative around that. Prime allows you to take essence from a spirit or locus and convert it to mana. Spirit + prime allows you to give something essence from your mana stocks. I somehow read that as being required for essence moving. Seeing that Medicine Bag doesn't require Prime like I thought, means I was wrong. It's become integral to Flouresce's designs but only to a small degree. I'll see if I can recall the arcanum I was considering replacing it with previously and crunch some possibilities to achieve maximum personal narrative satisfaction.

    This means holding the physical book aloft and chanting the words, consuming a physical action.
    I still operate from the assumption that how things go anyway. Besides, this is Turing. It would be a Toast, best spoken through the alcohol burn of a pull from a flask.

    Modified from Tessen's nip at a water bottle, of course.
    "No malice. No remorse."

  8. - Top - End - #1118
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Actually, hell. Zombies. Fire. Why hasn't this already happened?
    No equipment, remember? Making fire is vulgar, taking a spark from a gun and causing it to burst into flame and engulf the zombies, also vulgar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    No equipment, remember? Making fire is vulgar, taking a spark from a gun and causing it to burst into flame and engulf the zombies, also vulgar.
    Paraphrasing Here, but

    "Professor! Lightning! HOT!"

    Hell, it's been 3 seconds. Within the last two seconds, you just caused meat to sizzle. Ifluence heat is forces 1 and has a decent shot of increasing the ambient zombie temperature by what, ten degrees per success? Their fluids are probably literally already new the boiling point. Their clothes would probably combust, and all it takes is a "boy, took a minute for the heat to finally ignite that cloth" to keep it covert.

    But what do I know? I'm suggesting flaming ambulatory corpses in world of darknes is a good thing. My wisdom is already suspect.
    "No malice. No remorse."

  10. - Top - End - #1120
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Minus two isn't 'mildly inconvenient'. "Fighting in total darkness" is minus three. And these guys, uh, don't have a spectacular offensive dice pool.
    Well, presumably they'd have been taking a -2 (Fortune's Protection) when trying to Strength+Brawl me out of the way, and that didn't really slow them down.
    More specifically, even if it shuts down the next two actions altogether, that's still all it can achieve, that would just mean they would need to wait for action 3 to begin seriously murdering Slade again. All the while little Zombie continues unaffected.
    So, yeah, Mildly Inconvenienced. But I'll take any victory I can get, at this point.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    I was thinking about it and I decided I hated the Prelacies of the General.

    I think 'Fury' isn't remotely the right theme for her to be based off. The Praetorian is Evil Opposite Adamantine Arrow; they're the heartless, faceless generals to the Arrow's frontline soldiers. Also, the Prelacies of Fury are boring. And worse than boring, they're weaksauce. I don't know about you, but spending 18xp to gain +1 point of armour isn't my idea of a good deal.

    So, I designed these alternatives: The Prelacies of Attrition.

    CROWN OF ATTRITION

    1: Fog Of War

    The General is crowned with confusion, blinding his enemies and garbling their words. A Praetorian with this Prelacy is protected against teamwork; opponents make the wrong handsigns and words are misinterpreted. The Praetorian can always apply his full defence against multiple opponents, receives the full benefits of cover even if flanked, and any teamwork actions made against him automatically fail.

    2: The Great Game

    Warfare is a game of tactics and strategies, played for glory. None care about the pieces other than what they can purchase.

    Any time someone under the General's command dies or kills, the Praetorian knows where, when and how. When this happens, the Praetorian can choose to send a reflexive telepathic instruction to up to five members of the casualty's squad, regardless of their location.

    3: Never A Statistic

    Generals don't die in battle. Generals aren't on those lists of casualties mailed back home. When a General dies, it's a tragedy - never a statistic.

    With this Prelacy, the Praetorian is immune to all damage from forces effects that is not deliberately targeted at her. Mortar fire could be coming down all around her and she would be fine, or she could walk into a burning building or be struck by lightning and be completely unharmed.

    However, this effect ends when the Praetorian is deliberately targeted - either by someone picking up a burning stick and taking a swing at her, or by launching an air strike specifically to target the "Enemy's Commander".

    SWORD OF ATTRITION

    1: The General's Armoury

    There is nothing more pleasing to the General than wasteful military spending. Warehouses full of forgotten death-engines dot the world - waiting for the General to call them to war.

    With a simple gesture (instant action) and a successful Wits+Firearms+Forces roll, a Praetorian of the General can draw forth any hand-held piece of military equipment designed to harm. A pistol, an AK-47, a missile launcher, a land mine, whatever the Seer requires. Only two weapons can be drawn this way in a given scene.

    The one limitation on this technique is that it draws weapons from forgotten or disused stockpiles, so it can only conjure a weapon that could theoretically have been forgotten about - a fragmentation grenade, for instance, but not an experimental pulse grenade.

    2: Death is Obsolete

    War is fought between equipment, and the army with worse equipment will lose. A Praetorian using this Prelacy can bring inferior military technology's weaknesses to the fore.

    By gazing directly at a piece of offensive military technology (an instant action) the Praetorian can attempt to disable it, rolling Resolve+Firearms+Forces, with a penalty equal to the item's Resources value. Success disables the item until repaired.

    3: Merchant of Death

    In the General's arsenals lurks machinery to bring about the death of every nation. With this Prelacy, the Praetorian can now use The General's Armoury to conjure equipment heavier than handheld items. He can conjure entire shipping crates full of assault weaponry, missile batteries or even tanks.

    To achieve this takes a ritual using Intelligence+Firearms+Forces, with successes needed equal to the size of the item the Praetorian wishes to summon. The same restrictions apply as with the General's Armoury.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-17 at 10:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Prelacy thoughts.

    Fog of war: I think people with unseen sense or a supernatural attribute (e.g. Gnosis) should realize they are being affected by some kind of supernatural effect that's messing with their teamwork.

    Other crowns look awesome.

    General's armory: I'd limit the first level to small arms. Pulling out a rocket launcher or a minigun is a noticeable act and would be quite vulgar were it a spell. I also think that the first level of this ability doesn't feel like the General to me, it feels like a frontline ability. What about limiting it to making weapons for other people, but let it be used a bit more frequently?
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-17 at 11:31 AM.
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    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

  13. - Top - End - #1123
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Sorry for double post, but a totally separate thing. Thanqol, you get the Economist, right? The Nov 17 issue has a 1-page article on corporate museums on page 64. The title: Museums of Mammon.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-17 at 11:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

  14. - Top - End - #1124
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    And then they were stopped this before they could do anything anyway.
    On massively plus side, they were stopped.

    Now, if Slade bleeds to death anyway that will be super embarrassing.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    And then they were stopped this before they could do anything anyway.
    On massively plus side, they were stopped.

    Now, if Slade bleeds to death anyway that will be super embarrassing.
    For a bunch of people living in post apocalyptic Detroit ruled by a magical conspiracy, you're awfully shy on med kits and gun skill.
    "No malice. No remorse."

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    For a bunch of people living in post apocalyptic Detroit ruled by a magical conspiracy, you're awfully shy on med kits and gun skill.
    We have gun skill. Tessen rolls 6 dice when she shoots a pistol. 6 dice! If I rolled all 10s, I could probably kill someone if I got lucky on the re-roll.

    I agree on the startling lack of life mages and/or med kits. Turing does have life magic though, he's just very bad at it.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-17 at 06:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    We have gun skill. Tessen rolls 6 dice when she shoots a pistol. 6 dice! If I rolled all 10s, I could probably kill someone if I got lucky on the re-roll.

    I agree on the startling lack of life mages and/or med kits. Turing does have life magic though, he's just very bad at it.
    You only roll 4 dice sans equipment bonus. That's serious enough to not be a joke, but being a supernatural, you can rely on the four/six/eight dice range for proficiency. You've dealt with spirits,ghosts and zombies. Turing totally needs to bless a pistol for dealing with his specific nemeses.

    That's kind of the problem. "why don't you have a super gun lying around?"
    > violence as a problem solver is low wisdom
    "How many situations have you been in that would have been less terrifyingly near-fatal all's round with even a hint of preparation?"
    > ... Several
    "So why don't you prepare? It's only low wisdom to use contingencies, not have them"

    Kind of geared towards a damned if you do set up, isn't it? Have a hammer, see nails. Lack a hammer, fail emergency life saving carpentry.
    "No malice. No remorse."

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Actually, hell. Zombies. Fire. Why hasn't this already happened?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    2: Death is Obsolete

    War is fought between equipment, and the army with worse equipment will lose. A Praetorian using this Prelacy can bring inferior military technology's weaknesses to the fore.

    By gazing directly at a piece of offensive military technology (an instant action) the Praetorian can attempt to disable it, rolling Resolve+Firearms+Forces, with a penalty equal to the item's Resources value. Success disables the item until repaired.
    My immediate thought was 'Make an arms dealer, and have them slowly reduce prices until all weapons have a resources value of one'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Prelacy thoughts.

    Fog of war: I think people with unseen sense or a supernatural attribute (e.g. Gnosis) should realize they are being affected by some kind of supernatural effect that's messing with their teamwork.
    Nah; it's a redo of Break The Battle Pattern which does a similar thing to Fighting Styles, and those guys don't get warning about it.

    And what kind of confusion-based ability titled "The Fog of War" gives people warning?

    Other crowns look awesome.

    General's armory: I'd limit the first level to small arms. Pulling out a rocket launcher or a minigun is a noticeable act and would be quite vulgar were it a spell. I also think that the first level of this ability doesn't feel like the General to me, it feels like a frontline ability. What about limiting it to making weapons for other people, but let it be used a bit more frequently?
    I think heavy weapons are acceptable because:
    A) A heavy weapon isn't necessarily an advantage in a Mage fight.
    B) Leaving a trail of heavy weapon damage behind you pulls not just cops, but Homeland Security and other organisations.
    C) Prelacies are, essentially, Exarch Legacies and they're an avenue to demonstrate vulgar effects without Paradox.

    Also, the reason it's a frontline ability is because there's an implied hierarchy there - low ranking Generals fight on or near the front lines, which is why you've got FoW and AotG both at Rank 1. High ranking Generals decide the course of war and fight from the rear, which is why MoD and NAS are at rank 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Sorry for double post, but a totally separate thing. Thanqol, you get the Economist, right? The Nov 17 issue has a 1-page article on corporate museums on page 64. The title: Museums of Mammon.
    Hah! The Economist actually made a pony reference a while back, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    My immediate thought was 'Make an arms dealer, and have them slowly reduce prices until all weapons have a resources value of one'.
    That's a good thought - and it matches up with a lot of worldwide Praetorian activity. Expand the military-industrial complex, bring down costs, arm every citizen, rule the new world of violence.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-17 at 08:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Nah; it's a redo of Break The Battle Pattern which does a similar thing to Fighting Styles, and those guys don't get warning about it.

    And what kind of confusion-based ability titled "The Fog of War" gives people warning?
    I think I was unclear. I didn't mean they'd get a warning, I meant that after it had affected them, they wouldn't slam into the same ability again and again without understanding that some supernatural force was at work. Particularly because it makes all teamwork actions autofail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I think heavy weapons are acceptable because:
    A) A heavy weapon isn't necessarily an advantage in a Mage fight.
    B) Leaving a trail of heavy weapon damage behind you pulls not just cops, but Homeland Security and other organisations.
    C) Prelacies are, essentially, Exarch Legacies and they're an avenue to demonstrate vulgar effects without Paradox.

    Also, the reason it's a frontline ability is because there's an implied hierarchy there - low ranking Generals fight on or near the front lines, which is why you've got FoW and AotG both at Rank 1. High ranking Generals decide the course of war and fight from the rear, which is why MoD and NAS are at rank 3.
    I would still be worried about the potential of whipping out heavy weapons. If it's an NPC, it's likely to have essentially no long-term consequences. If it's a PC, the player is going to see an immediate gain and probably never experience a backlash for months of real-world time, if the campaign even gets that far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Hah! The Economist actually made a pony reference a while back, too.
    Yeah I took a look at a copy of that issue after you mentioned it in ponythread. Whichever editor or author put the title in for that one must have been ecstatic at getting that reference in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    That's a good thought - and it matches up with a lot of worldwide Praetorian activity. Expand the military-industrial complex, bring down costs, arm every citizen, rule the new world of violence.
    Makes sense to me.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    This is nowhere near being an issue when the difference between an extra dot of fire damage from zombie punches, and the smell of burning corpse coming from that human-shaped pile of white phosphorous is about 3 seconds of effort and maybe a point of willpower. A zombie lot on fire is a flaming zombie. A zombie which is pulsing with electric heat which is them increased is a pile of goo. Bones splinter and explode as the marrow becomes a heat sink, sucking the fire in and flash-evaporating, while boiling muscles rupture and dried, crispe ligaments snap. Consumed from ye inside, it is not long for this world.

    It's the difference between throwing a ton of firecrackers at a skyscraper and rigging it for controlled demolitions. Coming from inside, the body's natural differences in composition and moisture levels will aid you rather than hinder you.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-17 at 08:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I think I was unclear. I didn't mean they'd get a warning, I meant that after it had affected them, they wouldn't slam into the same ability again and again without understanding that some supernatural force was at work. Particularly because it makes all teamwork actions autofail.
    I think that, instead of any sort of magical recognition, the survivors of a hard fight against a General gather around a water cooler and are all like,

    "Hey, what the hell man, why didn't you give the sign like we practised?"
    "I totally gave the sign, dude, back off,"
    "You didn't, I was watching you, I've even got the goddamn recording on my helmet camera."
    "Man, it was crazy out there today - that guy was a son of a bitch to kill."
    "Maybe it would have been easier if you gave the damn sign!"

    Eventually if it happens often enough they might work out that "They have creepy seer battle magic and it's every man for himself"

    I would still be worried about the potential of whipping out heavy weapons. If it's an NPC, it's likely to have essentially no long-term consequences. If it's a PC, the player is going to see an immediate gain and probably never experience a backlash for months of real-world time, if the campaign even gets that far.
    I... have a very, very different take on Mage than you do. Mage: The Awakening is a game about supernatural conspiracy, influence and knowledge, subtlety and control. If you scream like rambo while firing a minigun at gangbangers then you're going to need to commit a lot of resources to cleaning that up later or have very real problems with federal agencies looking into your history, contacts, and possessions.

    Federal agencies are also filled to the brim with Mages of all stripes, though especially Free Council, Guardian of the Veil, and Panoptic.

    If I had a NPC Praetorian leave a dozen minigunned bodies lying around I'd have him get dressed down and demoted. If the player characters did that then it's possible an organisation with a lot of resources could look into them, find out their real names, and post pictures of them on "Most Wanted" lists on the evening news. These are real problems.

    Having had Jayden as the subject of a Federal Investigation for Terrorism I can tell you that it is a severe inconvenience.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    You only roll 4 dice sans equipment bonus. That's serious enough to not be a joke, but being a supernatural, you can rely on the four/six/eight dice range for proficiency. You've dealt with spirits,ghosts and zombies. Turing totally needs to bless a pistol for dealing with his specific nemeses.

    That's kind of the problem. "why don't you have a super gun lying around?"
    > violence as a problem solver is low wisdom
    "How many situations have you been in that would have been less terrifyingly near-fatal all's round with even a hint of preparation?"
    > ... Several
    "So why don't you prepare? It's only low wisdom to use contingencies, not have them"

    Kind of geared towards a damned if you do set up, isn't it? Have a hammer, see nails. Lack a hammer, fail emergency life saving carpentry.
    See, thing is, how many situations would have been solved more easily and more satisfactorily if we had a super gun?

    The Church; Would having a big stick have helped us talk down the Seers, or made it more likely that someone would have died in a horrible celestial fire?

    Meeting the Jerusalem Man? No meaningful difference.

    Thanksgiving Crackhouse? One dead drug addict. This is not a step up.

    Meeting the Seers? Might have made Tessens Seerdate uncomfortable.
    Slade's house was not lacking magic guns. This was infact largely the problem.

    Zombie Reunion? Magitech Murdergun present and functional. Useful, but less so than if we'd managed to guess zombies weakness, managed to slow Slade down, or infact managed to do anything at all to head off Slades almost deliberate seeming run directly at his own grave. Needing to use the gun effectively equals worst case scenario, arguably comparable in badness to just letting Slade go.

    I haven't read any of these Prelacies of whatever things elsewhere, Thanqol, so I have absolutely zero frame of reference or way to judge them. I think the theme and flavour are interesting, but I'm not sure if they are all created equal, so to speak. The Crown of Attrition* set in particular seems much more cool and convincing than the Sword, which feels a bit more videogame boss than anything.

    But all I can think is that, well.
    There's this old guy here from Birmingham. Him and a few of his mates would like to sing you all a little song about Thanqol's new take on the General.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    This is nowhere near being an issue when the difference between an extra dot of fire damage from zombie punches, and the smell of burning corpse coming from that human-shaped pile of white phosphorous is about 3 seconds of effort and maybe a point of willpower. A zombie lot on fire is a flaming zombie. A zombie which is pulsing with electric heat which is them increased is a pile of goo. Bones splinter and explode as the marrow becomes a heat sink, sucking the fire in and flash-evaporating, while boiling muscles rupture and dried, crispe ligaments snap. Consumed from ye inside, it is not long for this world.

    It's the difference between throwing a ton of firecrackers at a skyscraper and rigging it for controlled demolitions. Coming from inside, the body's natural differences in composition and moisture levels will aid you rather than hinder you.
    You are misinformed about the effects of electricity on the human body. There is no massive heat from the lightning that can turn the zombies into goo. There is enough heat to cause burns on the way in and out. Moreover, given the setup of the game rules, the lightning has already occurred by the time there is a chance to cast control heat. Even if there were time to cast, the reality of control heat is that a change of 20-30 degrees will make minimal difference for influencing a fire of the sort you're talking about, although over an extended period it would cause the zombies' bodies to stop functioning due to evaporation of liquids (assuming that the body itself needs at least a minimal set of biological processes to physically function).

    Edits:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I think that, instead of any sort of magical recognition, the survivors of a hard fight against a General gather around a water cooler and are all like,

    "Hey, what the hell man, why didn't you give the sign like we practised?"
    "I totally gave the sign, dude, back off,"
    "You didn't, I was watching you, I've even got the goddamn recording on my helmet camera."
    "Man, it was crazy out there today - that guy was a son of a bitch to kill."
    "Maybe it would have been easier if you gave the damn sign!"

    Eventually if it happens often enough they might work out that "They have creepy seer battle magic and it's every man for himself"
    I think we're looking at this differently. Your scenario makes perfect sense in-world to me. I'm looking at it from an OOC perspective. If it ever came up that PCs were fighting some Praetorian and they determined that a teamwork action was their best bet, I could easily see the players being told that their action failed, shrugging, and doing the exact same thing over and over because they still think it's the best bet. I think the players should be told when their action fails that something was off, that their tactic is unworkable, or otherwise signal somehow that trying the same thing again is a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I... have a very, very different take on Mage than you do. Mage: The Awakening is a game about supernatural conspiracy, influence and knowledge, subtlety and control. If you scream like rambo while firing a minigun at gangbangers then you're going to need to commit a lot of resources to cleaning that up later or have very real problems with federal agencies looking into your history, contacts, and possessions.

    Federal agencies are also filled to the brim with Mages of all stripes, though especially Free Council, Guardian of the Veil, and Panoptic.

    If I had a NPC Praetorian leave a dozen minigunned bodies lying around I'd have him get dressed down and demoted. If the player characters did that then it's possible an organisation with a lot of resources could look into them, find out their real names, and post pictures of them on "Most Wanted" lists on the evening news. These are real problems.

    Having had Jayden as the subject of a Federal Investigation for Terrorism I can tell you that it is a severe inconvenience.
    No that's about the same as my take. I just have a different view of heavy weapons. It would be pretty sloppy to leave a bunch of bullets that could only come from a high-power military weapon lying around. But if the Praetorian killed everyone in an area, why wouldn't he clean up after himself? Ditto for something like a rocket, it's not hard to have a news story about a local "gas explosion" pop up that evening if your Panopticon buddy works at the news station. Not to mention the possibility of use inside a sanctum or demesne that won't be viewed by anyone anyway.

    If you end up getting enough attention to get your face plastered on the evening news, you're doing something wrong. But I see no logical reason why use of such weapons necessarily draws that level of attention, though they surely do provide opportunities to mess up that wouldn't otherwise exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Needing to use the gun effectively equals worst case scenario, arguably comparable in badness to just letting Slade go.
    I'm pretty sure that we went quite a bit past worst case scenario when I decided to allow a giant abyssal anomaly to form. I'm surprised nobody is angry at Tessen. I expect Errant to chew her out and my IC explanation for this happening at all is that Tessen gave in some part of the abyss that's still within her (because I can hardly tell an NPC that I did it for the bonus xp).
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-17 at 08:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    I haven't read any of these Prelacies of whatever things elsewhere, Thanqol, so I have absolutely zero frame of reference or way to judge them.
    They're in Seers of the Throne. They cost as much to raise as an Arcana; they're essentially like Exarch Legacies and the primary source of "Creepy Seer Bulldust"

    I think the theme and flavour are interesting, but I'm not sure if they are all created equal, so to speak. The Crown of Attrition* set in particular seems much more cool and convincing than the Sword, which feels a bit more videogame boss than anything.
    Video game boss? We're not talking 'summon a tank to ride around in while fighting other Mages'. We're talking Seer in Africa arming his child soldiers with assault rifles, or starting a gang war by escalating everyone's armaments.

    But all I can think is that, well.
    There's this old guy here from Birmingham. Him and a few of his mates would like to sing you all a little song about Thanqol's new take on the General.
    I hate live music so much.

    Also, this is a better alternative.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-17 at 08:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Just want to note that I made a bunch of edits to my above post addressing Thanqol's comments, and a bit of an RP issue in response to Tiki's thing on guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    They're in Seers of the Throne. They cost as much to raise as an Arcana; they're essentially like Exarch Legacies and the primary source of "Creepy Seer Bulldust"
    Hmm. They feel quite powerful. I can only assume they're supposed to be. From my own point of reference, I can only express dubiousness at the idea that some of the local GM's would look at it and say anything other than lolno for player characters, but then some of the local gm's do tend towards kneejerk reactions and compared to the published prelacies it probably doesn't look even remotely over the top, I'm sure.

    As I said, haven't read.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Video game boss? We're not talking 'summon a tank to ride around in while fighting other Mages'. We're talking Seer in Africa arming his child soldiers with assault rifles, or starting a gang war by escalating everyone's armaments.
    That might be how you'd use it, but all I can see is a scenario where you corner Mr X, you've finally got him in your trap and it's beatdown time.
    Suddenly, Hammerspace Rocketlauncher!

    It's a familiar mental image.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I hate live music so much.

    Also, this is a good alternative.
    Not-live version is still good.
    Bob Dylan is also good. I confess I got a little way in before going to find his own version of it.
    Apparently there's an 800% slower version up on youtube, already.

    Edit:As far as Tessen and the anomaly goes, Jack is in no state for figuring out who to be angry at or not, right now. No time to think.
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-11-17 at 08:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Hmm. They feel quite powerful. I can only assume they're supposed to be. From my own point of reference, I can only express dubiousness at the idea that some of the local GM's would look at it and say anything other than lolno for player characters, but then some of the local gm's do tend towards kneejerk reactions and compared to the published prelacies it probably doesn't look even remotely over the top, I'm sure.
    They're pretty balanced imo. To compare, Cyprus has the one that lets her cast counterspell as a rote action (not a mage rote, but the one that lets her reroll all dice that don't read 8-10 on the first roll). That's scary Seer voodoo and it's why Cyprus is almost impossible to beat in a regular fight.

    Though I still maintain that there are ways of covering up the heavy weapons that make me wary of that particular power. It's already incredibly versatile, being able to pull out heavy ordinance at the exact time when it would be perfect for the situation makes me worry.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-17 at 08:59 PM.
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I think we're looking at this differently. Your scenario makes perfect sense in-world to me. I'm looking at it from an OOC perspective. If it ever came up that PCs were fighting some Praetorian and they determined that a teamwork action was their best bet, I could easily see the players being told that their action failed, shrugging, and doing the exact same thing over and over because they still think it's the best bet. I think the players should be told when their action fails that something was off, that their tactic is unworkable, or otherwise signal somehow that trying the same thing again is a bad idea.
    This is a feature and not a bug. The General punishes you for relying on your friends, like some kind of hippy.

    No that's about the same as my take. I just have a different view of heavy weapons. It would be pretty sloppy to leave a bunch of bullets that could only come from a high-power military weapon lying around. But if the Praetorian killed everyone in an area, why wouldn't he clean up after himself? Ditto for something like a rocket, it's not hard to have a news story about a local "gas explosion" pop up that evening if your Panopticon buddy works at the news station. Not to mention the possibility of use inside a sanctum or demesne that won't be viewed by anyone anyway.
    If you have enough control over the police, the media, corpse disposal and the ability to prevent witnesses from dialling it in to get away with heavy military weapon fire in an inner city district then you could have a goddamn minigun imported. If you even needed one - because it sounds like you've already won.

    Few other things:

    A) Seers don't have "buddies". Your Panoptic contact in the media might decide to smear your face across the news because it's politically convenient for him. Or he might ask for hush money.
    B) Heavy military kit is SUPER LOUD even if used inside a Sanctum.
    C) A very real and serious issue is a group of Sleepers catching on, forming a Hunter cell, and starting to track your movements. Hunters can be really scary.

    If you end up getting enough attention to get your face plastered on the evening news, you're doing something wrong.
    Yes! What you're doing wrong is bringing illegal military weaponry to an assassination and getting your fingerprints all over it when a pistol will kill a dude just as dead.

    But I see no logical reason why use of such weapons necessarily draws that level of attention, though they surely do provide opportunities to mess up that wouldn't otherwise exist.
    Yeah, huge difference between dissolving a single bullet into water and cleaning up the damage from firing 6000 minigun rounds through a guy and into a wall.
    I'm pretty sure that we went quite a bit past worst case scenario when I decided to allow a giant abyssal anomaly to form. I'm surprised nobody is angry at Tessen.
    Ahahahahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Hmm. They feel quite powerful. I can only assume they're supposed to be. From my own point of reference, I can only express dubiousness at the idea that some of the local GM's would look at it and say anything other than lolno for player characters, but then some of the local gm's do tend towards kneejerk reactions and compared to the published prelacies it probably doesn't look even remotely over the top, I'm sure.

    As I said, haven't read.
    They're easily balanced. Level 1 costs 6xp, level 2 costs 12xp on top of that, level 3 costs 18xp on top of THAT. If you pay 36XP for full initiation into a Prelacy then that's the same as taking any Arcanum from 0 to 3, which as we'll all agree is huge.
    That might be how you'd use it, but all I can see is a scenario where you corner Mr X, you've finally got him in your trap and it's beatdown time.
    Suddenly, Hammerspace Rocketlauncher!

    It's a familiar mental image.
    A rocket launcher is potentially the dumbest thing you can be carrying next to your face while in the same room as a hostile Obrimos.

    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

    And thematically? Servants of the Exarch of War should be scary in direct conflict, and they should always be armed.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-17 at 09:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

    Eh, it's not so much that he could pull out a big gun. Because he could already have a big gun. He's Mr X.

    It's that in videogames, Boss-characters just whip that crap out of no-where, and that particular power reminds me of that first and foremost. Worries about psychopaths with full access to every single military weapon ever widely used at 3 seconds notice kind of is a secondary concern at best, really.

    This is mostly just a case of me describing my own odd thoughts and mental associations.

    Though, you know, 6xp for any single action ever taken against you by more than one person automatically failing? That's sounds like a bargain, mechanically. When you have a fair assumption that the foes you face will be the sort to be particularly likely to work together? That kind of ventures into "why wouldn't you take it?" territory. Of course, I'm also assuming in this case that the answer is because there are even more fabulous prizes available in the other prelacies.

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