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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    While I can't speak for if 40k bears out this interpretation but one could argue that "soul" in any context the Warp would care about is created by the mind/body here. Or otherwise that creating a sentient being by any means simply gives them a "soul" by virtue of their nature not their origin. Ergo clone someone and the clone has just as much a "soul" as the original as they are technically separate or whatever.
    This seems right.

    I'm no expert on cloning & souls in WH40K but I know there have been several canon clones so someone with more knowledge there can speak.

    As far as souls go generally the Eldar their entire infrastructure built around the storage and utilization of souls; souls are actual things in WH40K and not some abstract metaphysical concept. Would reprogramming the brain of a human cause them to lose their soul? Unlikely since there are AdMech Servitors which are brainwiped humans and they are not Blanks and otherwise seem to have Warp Presence. You would need to actually implant the Pariah Gene in people to remove their Warp Presence entirely but such entities are so unnatural that people can go insane hanging out too close to them. Even if all the meatpuppets were made Blanks or the Culture someone re-engineered the entire Galaxy to lack emotions the Minds would still be vulnerable to Corruption and thanks to their unprecedented control over society that Corruption could give Chaos a total win.

    As far as the "box" idea it seems pretty clear that the living creature has a soul and the illusory ones do not. AFAIK you can't "simulate" a soul in WH40K -- they come with Life and are bound to the Warp.

    * * *

    All in all, I think Megaduck has the right of it to a point: the winner depends on the bounds of rationality. If Chaos is literally impossible to "reason out" then The Culture will be unable to cope with it and will inevitably fall; if Chaos can be "understood" then The Culture will be able to pop the Chaos Gods like balloons with Science. The one weight I put on the side of Chaos is that even if it can be Science'd in the end, Corruption acts faster and wider than even The Culture can. Literally every Chaos-tainted Artifact, Psyker, and even Warp Effect can expose a Mind to Corruption and all it takes is a single Corrupted Mind to make this a loss for the Culture.

    Why? Because every Ship has the ability to rebuild The Culture from nothing. This means that the existing Culture can rapidly be facing a Corrupted Culture and suddenly all of their Physical Mastery will be arrayed against The Culture instead of in its favor. And what if two Ships defect? Imagine facing a Khorne Culture and a Tzeentch Culture while trying to cope with Slaanesh influences within the Base Culture?
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    As far as the "box" idea it seems pretty clear that the living creature has a soul and the illusory ones do not. AFAIK you can't "simulate" a soul in WH40K -- they come with Life and are bound to the Warp.
    The problem the box idea poses is that it can very well be made "real". As in, built of physical stuff. The "people" in the box are just physical stuff that is in every way identical to the original person (and would therefore have reactions similar to the original person), do those have souls too?

    The thing about Life is just pushing it back one step. Because now the problem is "what is Life". After all, to the Minds, they can play strange games with their effectors to enforce arbitrary rules in a section of space. Is a sentient creature in a Conway's Game of Life enacted in the physical world with... I dunno, rocks say... does that count as Life?

    The way I see it, WH40K isn't consistent in the same way that the Culture series is (wrt physical objects and especially when you get down to low level physics). At some point, 'stuff' means different things to both of them, and they cannot both be right.


    Incidentally, this is also why I would consider vs threads between different magic systems a waste of time. If the magic systems are consistent, marrying them becomes impossible without breaking the consistency of at least one of them.

    This applies to WH40K's warp.


    Unfortunately, it appears I like to waste time. =D
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-09-25 at 06:01 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post

    Why? Because every Ship has the ability to rebuild The Culture from nothing. This means that the existing Culture can rapidly be facing a Corrupted Culture and suddenly all of their Physical Mastery will be arrayed against The Culture instead of in its favor. And what if two Ships defect? Imagine facing a Khorne Culture and a Tzeentch Culture while trying to cope with Slaanesh influences within the Base Culture?
    Every ship CAN, given enough time. The Culture is huge and to create something of its size and power will take a loooong time even for Culture vessel. Nothing I've read about the Culture indicates they'd just sit still for a few centuries while this corruption of their society grew to be a threat to them.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    Every ship CAN, given enough time. The Culture is huge and to create something of its size and power will take a loooong time even for Culture vessel. Nothing I've read about the Culture indicates they'd just sit still for a few centuries while this corruption of their society grew to be a threat to them.
    Who said they'd notice -- or even care?

    So what if a fellow Mind decides to "populate" a few conquered planets with some new variety of meatpuppet or is particularly brutal in dealing with alien cultures? From what I've seen the Special Circumstances folks not only indulge in Khorne-esque glorifying of destruction but that sort of action is tolerated, if not encouraged, so long as the Ends are proper.

    And, of course, a Corrupted Mind could pop into the Eye of Terror if it was really worried about being taken out by its fellows. It is awful hard to use superscience weapons when the laws of physics are out to lunch
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    So what if a fellow Mind decides to "populate" a few conquered planets with some new variety of meatpuppet or is particularly brutal in dealing with alien cultures? From what I've seen the Special Circumstances folks not only indulge in Khorne-esque glorifying of destruction but that sort of action is tolerated, if not encouraged, so long as the Ends are proper.

    And, of course, a Corrupted Mind could pop into the Eye of Terror if it was really worried about being taken out by its fellows. It is awful hard to use superscience weapons when the laws of physics are out to lunch
    If thats really the impression you've got from Special Circumstances you either haven't read the books or are really letting your dislike of the Culture's philisophy colour your judgement because that is nothing like how they operate.
    SC DON'T operate in 'Khornesque' glorifying of destruction in the slightest. And a Mind that was 'particularly brutal' in dealing with any sentient lifeforms would be wiped in short order. 'The meat****er' was exiled and shamed from the entire culture for reading poeples minds without permission. It didn't harm anybody but still violating a persons mind was enough of a crime to get it branded. Does that sound like a civilization that would sit still for a Mind populating a planet and ruling it any way it saw fit. Or for that matter a civilization that wouldn't notice or care what one of their citizens was doing.
    As for the 'Eye of terror' it is a solar system I believe a bit of effort for the Culture to destroy from outside it but by no means a hard task for them.
    Also you should really stop refering to culture citizens as 'meatpuppets'
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2012-09-25 at 07:18 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    As for the 'Eye of terror' it is a solar system I believe a bit of effort for the Culture to destroy from outside it but by no means a hard task for them.
    Also you should really stop refering to culture citizens as 'meatpuppets'
    The Eye of Terror is massive and may contain hundreds of planets. I say planets because physics is so ruined many of them no longer orbit stars but make their own unfathomable way through the Eye.

    Well honestly it goes either way. For example someone once encountered a star that froze everything around instead of heating things.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    As for the 'Eye of terror' it is a solar system I believe a bit of effort for the Culture to destroy from outside it but by no means a hard task for them.
    The Eye of Terror isn't a solar system. It's a lightyears wide hole in reality, where all of the laws of physics don't even register as guidelines except for what Greater Daemons/Chaos Gods/Alpha+ Psykers think they are, and that they can beat the superimposition of onto the others.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    If thats really the impression you've got from Special Circumstances you either haven't read the books or are really letting your dislike of the Culture's philisophy colour your judgement because that is nothing like how they operate.
    All I learned about The Culture I got from The Other Wiki

    Here's one exchange under Utopia Justifies The Means
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    Zakalwe: I thought the rules were meant to be the same for everybody.
    Diziet Sma: They are. But in Special Circumstances we deal in the moral equivalent of black holes, where the normal laws the rules of right and wrong that people imagine apply everywhere else in the universe break down; beyond those metaphysical event-horizons, there exist... special circumstances. That's us. That's our territory; our domain.
    Zakalwe: To some people, that might sound like just a good excuse for bad behaviour.
    Diziet Sma: And perhaps they would be right. Maybe that is all it is. But if nothing else, at least we need an excuse; think how many people need none at all.

    Additionally, a summary under Hypocritical Humor
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    Generally not called attention to, but several books show the Culture being Not so Different than traits they criticize in their enemies. Use of Weapons has a lot of these: Skaffen-Amtiskaw considers Zakalwe Ax Crazy (OK, he is) but Skaffen-Atiskaw has a scene where he brutally slaughters some bandits in an incredibly {Gorny way, basically having the machine-equivalent of an orgasm while he does it; Zakalawe acts really Trigger Happy when he sees a room full of Culture weaponry to the disapproval of his partners, the question of why the supposedly peaceful Culture has created so many weapons isn't answered...

    Now, I don't know how accurate that is but there you go.

    Also, I refer the the Culture meat as "meatpuppets" because, AFAIK, they don't actually do anything important except at the command of their Robot Overlords. They do a lot to themselves, of course, but little of the higher functions at separate humans from animals are relevant save when some machine decides that they need to do a thing. And why would they need it, when the Minds are better than meat in every way, shape, and form?

    Yeah, unless there's an example of someone in a Culture book who does something (1) important and (2) not planned or orchestrated by a machine I'll keep my nomenclature.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    The Eye of Terror isn't a solar system. It's a lightyears wide hole in reality, where all of the laws of physics don't even register as guidelines except for what Greater Daemons/Chaos Gods/Alpha+ Psykers think they are, and that they can beat the superimposition of onto the others.
    Thankfully as big as it is it doesn't seem to have any meaningful/reliable way in or out even on the Warp side except through Cadia. (Otherwise Chaos wouldn't even bother with Cadia)

    It should be within the Culture's tech level to construct an large quarantine around the whole thing until they figure out their longest term policy toward Chaos.

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    All I learned about The Culture I got from The Other Wiki

    Here's one exchange under Utopia Justifies The Means
    Spoiler
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    Zakalwe: I thought the rules were meant to be the same for everybody.
    Diziet Sma: They are. But in Special Circumstances we deal in the moral equivalent of black holes, where the normal laws the rules of right and wrong that people imagine apply everywhere else in the universe break down; beyond those metaphysical event-horizons, there exist... special circumstances. That's us. That's our territory; our domain.
    Zakalwe: To some people, that might sound like just a good excuse for bad behaviour.
    Diziet Sma: And perhaps they would be right. Maybe that is all it is. But if nothing else, at least we need an excuse; think how many people need none at all.

    Additionally, a summary under Hypocritical Humor
    Spoiler
    Show
    Generally not called attention to, but several books show the Culture being Not so Different than traits they criticize in their enemies. Use of Weapons has a lot of these: Skaffen-Amtiskaw considers Zakalwe Ax Crazy (OK, he is) but Skaffen-Atiskaw has a scene where he brutally slaughters some bandits in an incredibly {Gorny way, basically having the machine-equivalent of an orgasm while he does it; Zakalawe acts really Trigger Happy when he sees a room full of Culture weaponry to the disapproval of his partners, the question of why the supposedly peaceful Culture has created so many weapons isn't answered...

    Now, I don't know how accurate that is but there you go.
    I'll give you Skaffen-Aitskaw but seeing as how that is the only scene in all the books where even one Culture citzen goes bloodthirsty refering to SC as 'Khornesque' goes beyond the event horizon of hyperbole.
    And yes SC does dodgy stuff. They lie, they manipulate, they sometimes make deals with bad people to stop horrible people, making them out to be 'glorifying in destruction' because of this is, again, way over-the-top.

    Also, I refer the the Culture meat as "meatpuppets" because, AFAIK, they don't actually do anything important except at the command of their Robot Overlords. They do a lot to themselves, of course, but little of the higher functions at separate humans from animals are relevant save when some machine decides that they need to do a thing. And why would they need it, when the Minds are better than meat in every way, shape, and form?
    Again if you're refering to the Minds as 'robot overlords' you're missing the point. The Minds are not 'overlords' see Aorts Commanders post where he put it much better than I. Nobody in the Culture has to bend the knee to overlords, they can do what they want. They can chose to work alongside the Minds in SC and other places and may have to take orders from Minds but then they will have to take orders from other citizens because they are in organized groups where you need leaders and organizers.
    Threy have much more freedom and choice than any slave toiling on some polluted Forgeworld or overcrowdd Hiveworld. And are certainly more encouraged to develop and think than any of the previous mentioned slaves who are very often told not to think and just to shut and work yourself to death for the glory of the GE, who is wiser and smarter and more holy than you.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Thankfully as big as it is it doesn't seem to have any meaningful/reliable way in or out even on the Warp side except through Cadia. (Otherwise Chaos wouldn't even bother with Cadia)

    It should be within the Culture's tech level to construct an large quarantine around the whole thing until they figure out their longest term policy toward Chaos.
    Well, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that if they're planning on using SCIENCE to try and kill the Eye of Terror with deathbeams or whatever, it's not going to work out.

    If they figure out whatever the heck Oldcrons were up to, they could close it, to be fair.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Didn't someone say that the Minds exist in a hyperspace as defined by their novels? Such a realm would have no connection to the Warp, and so the Minds would be immune from all corruption unless they physically go to the normal universe.

    The only reason you can assume the Warp can corrupt a Mind is because you make the basic (but necessary for this discussion) assumption that the Culture and W40K occupy the same space: the physical universe.

    If the Minds exist in a Culture Hyperspace dimension, that is equivalent to a hypothetical situation where the Oldcrons successfully separated the Warp from normal space. The Warp Gods would be unable to interfere in the normal galaxy. Similarly, the Warp is unable to effect anything in Culture Hyperspace.

    Addendum: The Newcron fluff sounds like absolute ***t. So what happened to the Nightbringer, Deceiver, Outsider, and Void Dragon? Erased?

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    If they figure out whatever the heck Oldcrons were up to, they could close it, to be fair.
    Ah yes the Necron (sorry Oldcron ) pylons to cut off the warp. Do those still exist in the current background ?
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Didn't someone say that the Minds exist in a hyperspace as defined by their novels? Such a realm would have no connection to the Warp, and so the Minds would be immune from all corruption unless they physically go to the normal universe.

    The only reason you can assume the Warp can corrupt a Mind is because you make the basic (but necessary for this discussion) assumption that the Culture and W40K occupy the same space: the physical universe.

    If the Minds exist in a Culture Hyperspace dimension, that is equivalent to a hypothetical situation where the Oldcrons successfully separated the Warp from normal space. The Warp Gods would be unable to interfere in the normal galaxy. Similarly, the Warp is unable to effect anything in Culture Hyperspace.

    Addendum: The Newcron fluff sounds like absolute ***t. So what happened to the Nightbringer, Deceiver, Outsider, and Void Dragon? Erased?
    I have no idea how the Warp would interact with the hyperspace dimension. I think that as long as they have a connection to the physical universe the corruption could seep through. If they cut that connection then they would be perfectly safe.

    The Retcrons fluff is actually pretty decent. Those four C'tan get a brief mention in something like this

    'Some C'tan may have escaped the wrath of their former slaves but whether it was four, or four hundred nobody knows. The issue is further muddled by other beings claiming the to be C'tan and other false reports."

    Basically the most interesting thing in the Oldcrons, ie the C'tan, were to all extents rendered irrelavent as much of the Eldar gods are. However many interesting new characters and things were added such as the Necrons actually using diplomacy or having rivalries against other Necrons and even some human leaders.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    Well, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that if they're planning on using SCIENCE to try and kill the Eye of Terror with deathbeams or whatever, it's not going to work out.

    If they figure out whatever the heck Oldcrons were up to, they could close it, to be fair.
    Also probable, though there is anti-Warp tech aside from he Necrons never defined scheme. That's getting very speculative but with a reasonable basis. If its possible for science to effect the Warp (reasonable given that thats how its say entered) then they can figure possibly figure that out.

    Say encase the Eye in a Dyson formation of grown blank/pariah brains in stasis and slowly reduce the radius.

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Addendum: The Newcron fluff sounds like absolute ***t. So what happened to the Nightbringer, Deceiver, Outsider, and Void Dragon? Erased?
    All there. The C'tan played much the role they did before but now the high ranked Necrons retained independence and decided they didn't like the C'tan no more and so rolfstomped the vampires then shattered them into a million-billion pieces, that you can field in your armies and not wonder why they are so weak now.

    And well I for one never like the Oldcron's backstory. Maybe for temporary villains its okay, but not for an on going faction being played by people.

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Also probable, though there is anti-Warp tech aside from he Necrons never defined scheme. That's getting very speculative but with a reasonable basis. If its possible for science to effect the Warp (reasonable given that thats how its say entered) then they can figure possibly figure that out.

    Say encase the Eye in a Dyson formation of grown blank/pariah brains in stasis and slowly reduce the radius.
    Heh that reminds of a Dan Abett story where a Radical Inquisitor had figured out a way to shut down the eye of terror. It would take something like hundreds of psykers at Alpha + or close to levels and carving nearly an entire mountain into a warp pacifying pylon. The backlash would utterly wipe out Cadia and who know how many else systems though.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    I'll give you Skaffen-Aitskaw but seeing as how that is the only scene in all the books where even one Culture citzen goes bloodthirsty refering to SC as 'Khornesque' goes beyond the event horizon of hyperbole.
    And yes SC does dodgy stuff. They lie, they manipulate, they sometimes make deals with bad people to stop horrible people, making them out to be 'glorifying in destruction' because of this is, again, way over-the-top.
    Oh, they don't all have to; it just needs to be permitted -- which it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    Again if you're refering to the Minds as 'robot overlords' you're missing the point. The Minds are not 'overlords' see Aorts Commanders post where he put it much better than I. Nobody in the Culture has to bend the knee to overlords, they can do what they want. They can chose to work alongside the Minds in SC and other places and may have to take orders from Minds but then they will have to take orders from other citizens because they are in organized groups where you need leaders and organizers.
    Yes, nobody "has" to do what the Minds say but in the end, they do when the Minds want, don't they? Because the Minds are so much smarter than everyone else that they can manipulate anyone to doing their will. Don't believe me? Ask Yime Nsokyi.

    So yeah, a society in which a class of supremely intelligent machines can control -- either directly or not -- every other sentient being they can reach is not one in which I'd say the organics have much autonomy. Sure they can do what they want but why bother doing anything at all -- the Machines have it well in hand.

    They're meatpuppets: toys and pets that exist on the sufferance of the Minds. The fact that the Minds are fond of their pets does not change this essential fact.

    EDIT: As far as Corrupting the Minds works I am assuming that they have some sort of presence or method of communication with the Physical World. Through that presence they can receive information and their instruments can become "blessed" by their new Patrons. The Chaos Gods do not need to physically "touch" someone to corrupt them -- except for Nurgle who is a really touchy-feely kind of God.
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2012-09-25 at 08:52 PM.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    Nobody in the Culture has to bend the knee to overlords, they can do what they want.
    Unless they want to have an actual impact on the universe around them to justify their existences.

    Yes, the Minds aren't cackling evil overlords; in fact their goals are very much in line with the modern western mantras of individual freedom and hedonistic excess. But their very existence makes (pan)humanity completely irrelevant, to the point where there is literally no possible way a human can really help or hinder them or the Culture they are nominally participants in. I even doubt they'd let their humans do anything to each other unless it met their moral standards.

    At least the Imperium of Man, for all of it's GrimDark, needs humans. Whether as a Guardsman dying to secure Hill #879945 on some nameless alien world, a Hive Worlder toiling away building sprokets for Leman Russ tanks, or even a Chaos Cultist trying to bring the whole thing down each human can make a tangible contribution or challenge to the Imperium, and through it the universe as a whole. It's not pretty or fun or "moral" but it has meaning, and that's far more valuable than pleasure IMO.

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    All you need is one Ship, remember. One.
    I remain unconvinced that is true. Assuming a Mind falls (and Minds are bigger and smarter than anything the chaos powers have ever dealt with before and what exactly do you tempt a mega genius AI with ?) and assuming it makes it to the Eye of Terror without being destroyed by the Culture and assuming it isn't destroyed by being in there or by rivals from other powers, then so what ?
    The Culture throws up a quarantine on the Cadia gate. They're bigger than the one ship, massively bigger so they can produce massively faster. They have many more Minds so they will develop faster. In a few centuries a Culture/Chaos fleet may emerge and find a bigger, more advanced quarantine force ready to erase it.
    And thats assuming the Culture dopn't re-engineer the Necron pylons or some other tech and push the warp out of phase and then just go in and erase the mistake.
    All this does is add another faction to the pschotically hostile forces in the Eye. Hell it might be better for the universe as the Culture/Chaos will probably destroy a lot of rival power's stuff giving the Imperium a rest from their constant incursions


    Unless they want to have an actual impact on the universe around them to justify their existences.

    Yes, the Minds aren't cackling evil overlords; in fact their goals are very much in line with the modern western mantras of individual freedom and hedonistic excess. But their very existence makes (pan)humanity completely irrelevant, to the point where there is literally no possible way a human can really help or hinder them or the Culture they are nominally participants in. I even doubt they'd let their humans do anything to each other unless it met their moral standards.

    At least the Imperium of Man, for all of it's GrimDark, needs humans. Whether as a Guardsman dying to secure Hill #879945 on some nameless alien world, a Hive Worlder toiling away building sprokets for Leman Russ tanks, or even a Chaos Cultist trying to bring the whole thing down each human can make a tangible contribution or challenge to the Imperium, and through it the universe as a whole. It's not pretty or fun or "moral" but it has meaning, and that's far more valuable than pleasure IMO.
    And thats wrong. Culture citizens can have an effect they can have families, produce art that will make the lives of other beings richer or join SC and save entire species from ruin or destruction.
    And if you're idea of a contribution is a chaos cultist trying to bring suffering to millions then seriously, you need to reconsider your values.
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2012-09-25 at 09:30 PM.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Also probable, though there is anti-Warp tech aside from he Necrons never defined scheme. That's getting very speculative but with a reasonable basis. If its possible for science to effect the Warp (reasonable given that thats how its say entered) then they can figure possibly figure that out.

    Say encase the Eye in a Dyson formation of grown blank/pariah brains in stasis and slowly reduce the radius.
    That's pretty much exactly what the Tau did to take over the galaxy in a fanfiction I read once, I think it was called Rise of the Tau. They manufactured anti-warp drones and built gigantic automated drone factories that churned out gadzillions of the things, flooding the Eye's boundaries and gradually shrinking it.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Going just on what I've heard about the Culture the humans can have plenty of meaning in their lives.

    They can make friends, philosophize, write books, study, or even go out and colonize new worlds. They aren't needed but lets be honest no one is truly needed on Earth either.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Going just on what I've heard about the Culture the humans can have plenty of meaning in their lives.

    They can make friends, philosophize, write books, study, or even go out and colonize new worlds. They aren't needed but lets be honest no one is truly needed on Earth either.
    I think perilously few of in the human race can claim honestly they've contributed, and most that legitly have keep a lower profile about it.

    I know that at the end of the day I will take post-scarcity hypertech over a struggle for finding "meaning" and so would plenty of others. Nevermind being brought up in such a place this would only be reinforced.

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    As far as Corrupting the Minds works I am assuming that they have some sort of presence or method of communication with the Physical World. Through that presence they can receive information and their instruments can become "blessed" by their new Patrons. The Chaos Gods do not need to physically "touch" someone to corrupt them -- except for Nurgle who is a really touchy-feely kind of God.
    Not really, if you go by the logic of the Oldcron pylons. That logic is, you seal up the Warp from normal space and presto, no more Chaos influence.
    By your logic, hey what about all the trillions of Chaos daemons still hanging around in normal space? They don't need a constant connection to the Warp, who cares if it's closed off they can still do Chaos-y things as much as they please.
    But that's not the case.
    Similarly with Culture Hyperspace. If the Mind even casually cuts off connection with normal space for a nanosecond, poof, it amputates whatever Chaos tendrils were exploring inside at the time.

    Newcrons:
    Feels to me like GW got inspired by Relic's representation of Necrons in Dawn Of War. And went in a stupid direction with a good inspiration.
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    tl;dr - it's not terrible, it's just different and bad.
    Last edited by MLai; 2012-09-25 at 09:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    And thats wrong. Culture citizens can have an effect they can have families, produce art that will make the lives of other beings richer or join SC and save entire species from ruin or destruction.
    So, basically 1) Make more people, 2) Pleasure seeking with a slightly more pretentious bent, or 3) Do the job which I have seen consistently described as something the Minds let people do to stave off boredom (and can themselves do nearly infinitely better).

    Yeah, not wowing me on the "justifying your existence" front.

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    And if you're idea of a contribution is a chaos cultist trying to bring suffering to millions then seriously, you need to reconsider your values.
    At least the Chaos Cultist has a freaking spine (until the Daemons remove it that is ) and the power to change things around them. The ability to make decisions which matter, even terrible decisions, is at the core of what it means to be a moral agent. If you aren't even physically capable of harming someone else, in what way are you choosing not to? How is that a moral choice?

    Not that everyone should be gibbering murderers, but people need to decide what they value and pursue that course to whatever ends it comes to. Being ruled by fear or an imposed external morality may be comfortable but you might as well not be alive at all if you can't decide your own path to take.

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    @ Water Bear:
    But 85% of all humans on Earth today fervently believe in exactly what you are opposed to. That percentage gets even higher as you go back in time.
    You are in the vast minority.

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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    @ Water Bear:
    But 85% of all humans on Earth today fervently believe in exactly what you are opposed to. That percentage gets even higher as you go back in time.
    You are in the vast minority.
    That's not a valid argument even if it is true.



    A better one is that they do have the ability to choose whatever path they like in the Culture. Including leaving the Culture. If you are staying in the Culture you have to play by it's rules like you would in other societies, and the Culture are more permissive then most societies are.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Not really, if you go by the logic of the Oldcron pylons. That logic is, you seal up the Warp from normal space and presto, no more Chaos influence.
    Yes, but first you need to permanently split the Warp from Reality. No small feat.

    It's not like a Corrupted Mind "loses" its Corruption just because it stops interacting with Reality. Corruption attacks the core of the being -- just because you stop licking the infected tissue doesn't mean the germs multiplying in your body go away.

    @Soras Teva Gee -- what can I say, I like to think Humans should continue existing in the future

    The universe of The Culture has no use for Humanity: any achievements in art, science or philosophy a Human does could have been done (and better) by a Mind using an infinitesimal fraction of its vast intellect. It is true that individual humans still have base animal needs which can be endlessly satiated but their impact is no greater than that of a monkey or a dog -- they can serve no purpose greater than themselves.

    But at its heart, this is a philosophical difference.
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    IMHO, civilization is Humanity's greatest glory and its ability to nurture the unique forms of expression that our brains provide (i.e. art, science, philosophy) means that the world -- perhaps the Universe -- is changed for our existence. Even if there are aliens there is always a chance that we can produce something they cannot; with the Minds they have already thought everything anyone could ever think. What use is Man in such a place?

    This is why I find Bank's "utopia" so appalling. The Machines are all-powerful nursemaids who keep people in a child-like state for their entire lives while occasionally playing with a favored few by involving them in their plans -- whether the humans like it or not. These plans seem to consist solely of finding other "less enlightened" civilizations and manipulating them in some way. Whatever the Minds do is always Right -- they are never wrong or mistaken in their actions. At worse they underestimate a foe before triumphing with even greater firepower.

    Yes, humanity has an endlessly pampered life but is that all there is? Is that all there should be?


    @Forum Explorer -- leaving The Culture only matters as long as The Minds decide they don't want to play with you. And, of course, any "citizen" of The Culture should know full and well that anything they try to do, the Minds could do better.
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2012-09-25 at 10:02 PM.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    *headdesk*

    There we go Hunter, please trot out the PRATT (Point Refuted A Thousand Times) of the Culture's "nanny state".

    No, it is not a nanny state, it is stable. Crack open a sociology textbook, why don't you?

    A happy society with strong leaders is a healthy society. Something the Culture, thanks to the tech and the Minds, is.

    For me?

    Mind: "Warp presence? What Warp presence? I don't see any Warp presence. Anymore."

    When the Newcrons-which, in comparison, are friggin' awesome-were uploaded, the problem wasn't the soullessness, it was the constant reloads caused by death that drove them bonkers.

    The Minds temporarily remove their souls using science, and then when Chaos is gone, put them back, using science. Like, say, the Necrons. Again. After they figure out how to put souls back, of course, but that's easy for them.

    Also, the Warp does run on math, which is why sorcery works. I read Black Crusade, I know. And if it runs on math, it can be figured out.
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Leliel View Post
    There we go Hunter, please trot out the PRATT (Point Refuted A Thousand Times) of the Culture's "nanny state".

    No, it is not a nanny state, it is stable. Crack open a sociology textbook, why don't you?[

    A happy society with strong leaders is a healthy society. Something the Culture, thanks to the tech and the Minds, is.
    Strawman.

    I didn't say The Culture was a "nanny state;" I said it was one in which all that separates Humanity from the animals pales before the perfection of their Machine Masters. This is, IMHO, an unrealistic society (how do flawed men make perfect machines?) and its approach towards utopia frankly sickens me.

    Your definition of a "healthy society" includes that of Huxley's "A Brave New World" as their leaders are strong and their "society" is happy (chemically). Think on that one

    Quote Originally Posted by Leliel View Post
    Also, the Warp does run on math, which is why sorcery works. I read Black Crusade, I know. And if it runs on math, it can be figured out.
    Then you must also know that using Sorcery is inherently corrupting. Well done
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    Default Re: The Culture v's 40kverse

    This is what Culture vs 40K threads devolve into.

    Philosophical wankery. I'm out.
    You can shout it from the roof-tops, you'll be preaching to the choir.
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