The Culture v's 40kverse

[Parra]

Just a few points on Minds.

While part of a Minds itelligence does indeed rest in an alternate dimension (Hyperspace) it is still very much tethered to a physical body (a giant thousand tonne cylinder) in the physical universe. If that physical body is destroyed, the Mind dies.

Minds are not infallible. In one of the books (Look to Windward) the Culture were interfering in a less advanced civilisation and messed up so badly that it caused a civil war that killed millions (billions?).
As soon as the error was made, they stopped interfering. Withdrew all their hidden agents. Then came forward and explained that it was all there fault and would do anything and everything they could to fix things.

My own question would be; how would Chaos corrupt a Mind?

[Scowling Dragon]

And do teachers disgust you?

Do advanced mathematicians teaching basic maths to newcomers disgust you?

Because thats how I see them. Teachers waiting for the children to have their fun, grow up, and then proceed to teach, learn, and help others.

[soir8]

@Oracle_Hunter:

But hedonistic delight isn't the highest pursuit of individuals in The Culture. Their highest pursuit is whatever seems most important to them, which they are then free to pour unlimited time & resources into.

Take Special Circumstances, for example; while the morality of interfering in other cultures is another issue, an SC agent (who can just as easily be a human as any other member species) has the responsibility of single-handedly resolving global crises, probably on multiple worlds. This monumental undertaking is something essential to The Culture, and something a Mind couldn't do.

It isn't that Machines simply run The Culture, it is that there is no remaining "great pursuit" in which Mankind is best suited to pursue.

"humans don't get to be best at anything" is no better than "humans don't get to be in charge" as an objection.

I also object to you putting forth one person's opinion on Brave New World - which has barely been discussed here - as "the greatest objection amongst Culture-philes" to the book's dystopia. It seems to me you're trying to paint anyone who agrees with The Culture as agreeing with Huxley's world.

And I find Heinlein almost unreadable, sorry.

[Selrahc]

As with anything, the line between Utopia and Dystopia must be drawn by the individual. Apparently the greatest objection to "Brave New World" amongst Culture-philes is that it "seems unsustainable" which -- again, IMHO -- is almost as depressing to hear as the world described by Huxley.

There is no real overlap. One makes citizens happy by giving them as much freedom as possible and the tools to do what they want. The other by building them a cage and shaping them to fit it. The only overlap is happy citizens, with every other pertinent aspect being basically inverted.

EDIT: And yes, a human can be converted into a mind. Which basically means that the human serves as the basic personality which the mind is built around. It's seen as a rather perverse and odd thing to do, but is possible.

[Murska]

If by 'hedonistic delight' you mean 'doing whatever one wants', I don't really see what else could be the highest pursuit of individuals. If one wants to do nothing, then one has no highest pursuit. If one wants to do something, then that can be done in Culture (all right, there do exist limits but that's true in any situation and the limits in Culture are much less stringent than pretty much anywhere else). The reason we cannot always do what we want is that there are such limits - much of human endeavour has been to remove them or push them back. Culture is just an extension of that, where the limits have been pushed extremely far away.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Take Special Circumstances, for example; while the morality of interfering in other cultures is another issue, an SC agent (who can just as easily be a human as any other member species) has the responsibility of single-handedly resolving global crises, probably on multiple worlds. This monumental undertaking is something essential to The Culture, and something a Mind couldn't do.

Except that Minds direct the actions of SC and will even dragoon unwilling individuals to serving its goals.

Again, this is the beer-fetching dog again; any Mind could send a Drone or even upload some portion of itself into a meatpuppet if it was absolutely necessary to send an Organic to do SC business. The fact that they don't is because they don't think it is important enough to distract them from their 12-dimensional simulations.

"humans don't get to be best at anything" is no better than "humans don't get to be in charge" as an objection.

Sez you

I naturally see things differently but, again, this is a matter of opinion.

In regards to Huxley, I've only seen one person try to engage with BNW so if you'd like to do so, feel free. Selrahc has, but my rebuttal there is that both versions of Mankind live in cages -- Huxley was just aware of the cage he constructed while Banks seems unaware.

@Parra -- yes, they made one mistake and killed a lot of organics. Yet this doesn't keep them from doing this very thing over and over again nor was it outside of their power to put right what went wrong. If they really wanted to do things safely they could; instead they prefer to toy with other civilizations. Despite this one situation Minds are generally portrayed as infallible -- and if they're not, then why aren't there any checks on their actions?

@Selrahc -- was the Human-to-Mind thing ever done? If so, why?

[thorgrim29]

On the Culture/BNW arguement: In the Culture, everyone is a genius and anyone who bothers has the equivalent of several PHDs, because if you want to be the leading expert on one particular subject, everyone goes: cool, here are unlimited resources, if you get bored, feel free to take a vacation for 5 years, it's all good. That's where the comparison with Brave New World breaks down, the society in BNW enslaves everyone by mutilating them in the womb (so to speak), forcibly assigning them jobs they don't know enough to hate, restraining culture, censoring anything with more dept then here comes honey boo-boo, and pumping them so full of uppers they don't notice they're miserable.

The interesting thing about people who bash the culture is that their concerns are actually adressed in universe. A lot of people in the Culture want their life to actually affect the world at large. They have a whole organisation filled with them, and they help other people, sometimes with mind blowing arrogance and lack of foretought, as was mentioned, but they do it to help. And I imagine that a lot more goes on in Contact then what we know, they probably have teams who go around curing diseases (for example they make a researcher have a dream leading him to realise how to cure HIV/AIDS), knocking asteroids off course, that sort of thing. Contact is both a way for some people to find meaning, and a way for the Culture as a whole to justify their carefree existance. Also, they got into a lot of war because other civilisations are disgusted by them, mostly on religious grounds, but not so much lately because the first rule of living near the Culture is don't **** with the Culture, for they have lots of guns and if you push them far enough they will kill you from the next solar system.

As a final point, what the books call human is not actually us-human. It's a general term for species that fit a certain mold. For example, most species in Star Trek would be considered human by the Culture. And us-humanity is not part of the culture, the first books are set in I believe the early 19th century or so, and Contact visited us during the Sixties or Seventies. They had a good time, got drunk off scotch and wine duplicated from the wreck of the Titanic, and one of them became a priest.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The interesting thing about people who bash the culture is that their concerns are actually adressed in universe. A lot of people in the Culture want their life to actually affect the world at large. They have a whole organisation filled with them, and they help other people, sometimes with mind blowing arrogance and lack of foretought, as was mentioned, but they do it to help. And I imagine that a lot more goes on in Contact then what we know, they probably have teams who go around curing diseases (for example they make a researcher have a dream leading him to realise how to cure HIV/AIDS), knocking asteroids off course, that sort of thing. Contact is both a way for some people to find meaning, and a way for the Culture as a whole to justify their carefree existance. Also, they got into a lot of war because other civilisations are disgusted by them, mostly on religious grounds, but not so much lately because the first rule of living near the Culture is don't **** with the Culture, for they have lots of guns and if you push them far enough they will kill you from the next solar system.

So, while I get all that I was under the impression that there are Minds that direct Contact and Special Circumstances. Is this the case, or do they permit the organics to go running around blowing up other civilizations? If the Minds do let these fellows run amok, why?

[soir8]

Sez you

I naturally see things differently but, again, this is a matter of opinion.

In regards to Huxley, I've only seen one person try to engage with BNW so if you'd like to do so, feel free. Selrahc has, but my rebuttal there is that both versions of Mankind live in cages -- Huxley was just aware of the cage he constructed while Banks seems unaware.

"Greetings, Humans. We, the Ultimate Happy Fun Club, hereby invite you to join our perfect society. You get to live forever, have anything you want, and do anything you want."

"Do we get to be in charge?"

"No, we have magic superbrains to keep everything running smoothly, but nobody is really ruled by anybody else-"

"Do we get to be best at anything?"

"Well, we have technology that does everything perfectly and countless diverse member species, so it's unlikely humans will really be 'best' at anything-"

"Not interested."

I don't think it's a matter of opinion that ethnocentrism is wrong. You don't like the fact that Humans aren't special, is what it comes down to.

The fact that only one person had discussed BNW, only for you to portray their opinion as a problem with "Culture-philes", was the reason I brought it up. But the two societies don't compare. Where is this cage that Banks didn't see? If everything is good in the cage, and the cage has no bars preventing you from leaving, it's not really a cage, is it?

Edit: and now it's a problem if the minds aren't in charge? Running out of legs to stand on?

[Selrahc]

In regards to Huxley, I've only seen one person try to engage with BNW so if you'd like to do so, feel free. Selrahc has, but my rebuttal there is that both versions of Mankind live in cages -- Huxley was just aware of the cage he constructed while Banks seems unaware.

Why is it a cage? Or since there is basically no way to imagine a universe that doesn't limit people in some form: specifically, why is it a cage in the same way as a Brave New World, while 40kverse and real world apparently aren't?

was the Human-to-Mind thing ever done? If so, why?

It wasn't done in novel, but it was mentioned. A human in Excession was feeling dissatisfied/depressed due to the collapse of a long term relationship, and was contemplating responses. Other things briefly considered and rejected were becoming an alien, an AI drone, or other radical changes of identity. Since it wasn't discussed in great detail, the exact process wasn't talked about, and the individual in question elected to go into stasis for a while instead, before events overtook them.

[Scowling Dragon]

So Oracle:

If there was an alien species hovering above our heads right this second that already knew everything we know (And are a million times better then us) , found us incredibly amusing and decided not to take control of us because they want us to have our own choices does this also disgust you?

[Oracle_Hunter]

If everything is good in the cage, and the cage has no bars preventing you from leaving, it's not really a cage, is it?

This is exactly what I was talking about.

First of all, you can't actually leave the cage. Aside from knowing that there is a civilization which can do everything you're doing but better there is the issue that the Minds will freely force you to do their work if they want to.

The "invisible" cage is that Banks doesn't acknowledge that there might be a higher pursuit for Man aside from physical comfort and hedonistic pursuits.

From the man himself:

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Q: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?
A: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

Since I am (apparently) a fascist money-loving power-junky, I will proudly say that there is more to life than simply "happiness." However, Banks has put those very things beyond the reach of his meatpuppets because he doesn't consider them important: better to let inhuman Minds worry about that stuff.

When Huxley took that approach to its logical extreme he was sure to write discontents despite the power of Soma; he was aware that there is more to Man than Pleasure/Pain. I am not so sure this is clear to Banks and if it is, it doesn't show in his work.

[Urpriest]

EDIT: And yes, a human can be converted into a mind. Which basically means that the human serves as the basic personality which the mind is built around. It's seen as a rather perverse and odd thing to do, but is possible.

Ok, so Oracle_Hunter, this pretty neatly refutes everything you've been saying. If a Human feels like they can't accomplish their goals because they are outclassed by Minds, they can simply become a Mind, in much the same way that you can buy a computer/apply for a grant to use a supercomputer (depending on the real-world scale we're comparing).

[Scowling Dragon]

Again: WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT BRAVE NEW WORLD!

Il get bored of bodily pursuits eventually and take up advanced mathematics because "Well why not? Im bored."

I can have ANYTHING. For me, I want to make cartoons. But I find myself lacking time.

In the Culture I can spend 100 years goofing off until I begin.

And If Im afraid I won't get anywhere I can say "I lock myself in this room so I HAVE to learn"

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ok, so Oracle_Hunter, this pretty neatly refutes everything you've been saying. If a Human feels like they can't accomplish their goals because they are outclassed by Minds, they can simply become a Mind, in much the same way that you can buy a computer/apply for a grant to use a supercomputer (depending on the real-world scale we're comparing).

This assumes you can become a Mind and retain your Humanity. But more importantly, as Selrahc elaborates, no mention was made of actually turning an individual into a Mind -- merely into another form of inorganic intelligence. Plus, if transfer to Mind is so easy, why are there so many organics hanging out in Contact and Special Circumstances? Shouldn't they appreciate the greater capabilities of being a Mind?

That said, refer to my last post regarding the deeper philosophic concern I have. Minds are symptomatic of a larger ill, but I do object to the Deus Ex Machina in and of themselves as well.

[Scowling Dragon]

I simply don't understand you Oracle.

Lets leave it at that.

[Water_Bear]

Why is it a cage? Or since there is basically no way to imagine a universe that doesn't limit people in some form: specifically, why is it a cage in the same way as a Brave New World, while 40kverse and real world apparently aren't?

Because choice here isn't a question of "How many flavors of ice cream do I get?" so much as a "Why is my existence better than my nonexistance?"

In Brave New World, people (with only a very small number of exceptions) absolutely love living in The World State. The have, to paraphrase previous posters, pretty much eliminated almost every one of the problems which humanity has dealt with for our entire existence and built a Fordist "utopia" of happy-fun-times. The Alphas are smarter and better and more moral than the rest of the population, but don't mistreat them; they rule like benevolent parents, and who doesn't like that idea? Heck, if you don't like it you can go live somewhere else; plenty of people leave The World State and go live unmolested their whole lives.

(Hmmm, this all sounds vaguely familiar...)

Yet the book leads us to see how ultimately empty and meaningless that kind of society is. The permissive "freedom" it offers, surely greater than any human society, does nothing more than to keep people emotionally and chemically dependent on their society and its nihilistic "values". And it is so stable, so entrenched, that even opposing it can have no result other than your own exile, without having really changed anything. It is a portrait of the death of Humanity; a society of last men where heroism is impossible.

[Forum Explorer]

Oracle you didn't really address my point though you may have missed it.

Basically in the Culture series all the big questions have been answered. The problems have been solved. You say the Minds are to blame but they rarely do anything and if you still aren't comfortable then you can just leave.

So when everything has been answered is there any purpose in life anymore? What do you do then?


Basically what would be your ideal 'utopia'?

Because I have to say you don't matter. I don't matter and no one else on this planet matters. If we were all to cease to exist the only difference would be that we no longer exist. That make other people unhappy but they don't matter either!

[Parra]

Im kinda curious what Oracle Hunter would want to do in the Culture that is somehow missing?

It cant be because the Minds are better than you than everything. Thats like thinking because Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay climbed Everest First then there is no point in anyone else doing it.
Or because <insert awesome musician> is better at creating music, that you shouldn't even try.

I dont get whats missing?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Basically what would be your ideal 'utopia'?

Reposted in part from an earlier post

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Now, I do not know what such a society would look like but one which makes a good stab at it is in Heinlein's "Beyond this Horizon." Admittedly there are a lot of flaws and questionable assumptions in it but it has some good points:

(1) The government allocates funds for pure research and projects that might enrich human existence.

(2) Genetic selection is used to maximize pro-survival qualities (e.g. sound teeth, vibrant immune systems) but not for casual purposes (e.g. hair or skin color). The experts here are conservative in their approach.

But most importantly is what it lacks. It doesn't have Physical Gods who can (and should) undertake every major challenge left in the Universe. It doesn't assume that its rulers' judgment is infallible and beyond reproach. Most importantly it is ruled by people and not angels.

The really disgusting part of The Culture for me is that it assumes that hedonistic pursuits are the highest aim that people can have. Everything that contemporary humans would consider "great pursuits" is either done by the Minds directly or orchestrated by them -- and it should be. They are apparently so smart that they only need to use an infinitesimal amount of their capacity to keep society running and deal with external threats: they use the rest of it constructing and running elaborate simulations of Universes.

* * *

As such this "great pursuits" aren't really the domain of Man are they? No, they are the domain of Machines and Man should be left to having dual pregnancies and needlessly suicidal extreme sports. This conceit is obviously not espoused by The Culture itself but it is the logic the Universe runs on and that is what I find disgusting. I am as appalled with The Culture as I am with "Brave New World" and for similar reasons -- both societies remove "great pursuits" from the hands of Mankind.

Like many philosophical disagreements, it can be very hard for people on opposing sides to understand what the other is saying. That's basically the nature of philosophical inquiry and why I prefer a Socratic Method in these situations.

@Forum Explorer -- when "everything has been answered" one of those answers will direct what the purpose of Life is

One of my objection to Banks's work is that his answer is "hedonistic delight." Philosophically, I object to this conclusion and it is maddening to me that he has made the pursuit of greater ends irrelevant in face of the absolute Rightness of the Minds.

@Parra -- there is a vast difference of scope between the abilities of Men and Mind. The best example is music. The Beatles were very good at creating and performing their own kind of music and I won't be able to match them there (for the sake of argument ) but I could learn or invent a new form of music and be the best there is at that. However, Minds are capable of simulating and producing all forms of music possible and perfecting each and every form at once -- and they can do that using a fraction of their abilities. There is no hope that I could create a form of music that the Mind could not invent if it cared to investigate the field of music; worse as soon as it felt like investigating the field it would be better than I could ever be at it.

This sort of realization is what is so soul-crushing about The Culture. Hopefully that makes it clearer

[Soras Teva Gee]

Because choice here isn't a question of "How many flavors of ice cream do I get?" so much as a "Why is my existence better than my nonexistance?"

In Brave New World, people (with only a very small number of exceptions) absolutely love living in The World State. (...)

I'm not seeing anything that constitutes an argument here.

Merely that you state a fairly well known text happens to agree with you.

That's all well and good but of no actual relevance.

You evidently dislike the Culture, at least as portrayed in this thread. That's fine. I think I could absolutely despise what I've heard of the Culture as it touches on purely personal and in some cases theological assumptions that we need not dwell on here. I consider it as an idea a rather foolish and possibly immature fantasy that could never come to pass. However I've heard in previous discussions of indications that at the meta level the series is aware of it and perhaps even acknowledging the impossiblity as a fair point... but what if it was possible?

Which intellectually can make for an interesting exercise in exploration of the ramifications.

However suggesting 40k has some kind of moral superiority that we should prefer it over the Culture... is a monstrous confusing of priorities. Oh sure humans are in charge, and failing badly. Any kind of value in being a Man's Man Universe is dust between failing to maintain a functioning society who for 40,000 years of history and 10,000 years of rule often fails to provide the standards of living we First Worlders expect.

And certainly to mention how the entire universe outside the Imperium wants to rape humanity to death, eats its flesh, and sew its skin onto its clothes that if the Imperium is very, very lucky will happen in that order.

Something as esoteric as valuing human achievement means nothing in the face of starving underhivers and Guardsmen fed down the throats of hell in an failing attempt to drown hell in blood.

I'd live in the Culture. I might end up being the relative equivalent of an ascetic living in a jar in a public square... but it would be the "relative equivalent" with emphasis on relative because the point would be reforming the Culture. To have my cake and eat it too.

I would not live in the Imperium.

[Luzahn]

And certainly to mention how the entire universe outside the Imperium wants to rape humanity to death, eats its flesh, and sew its skin onto its clothes that if the Imperium is very, very lucky will happen in that order.

I would not like in the Imperium.

Oh, I would hate it in the Imperium. Unless I was a Rogue Trader, if those are still around. To just find a job and keep flying seems like a more exciting and fulfilling life than having all of your needs met in the Culture. Ultimately, the Culture could collapse, and if it did, much of the organic life within would be too soft to cope with it.

[Parra]

@Parra -- there is a vast difference of scope between the abilities of Men and Mind. The best example is music. The Beatles were very good at creating and performing their own kind of music and I won't be able to match them there (for the sake of argument ) but I could learn or invent a new form of music and be the best there is at that. However, Minds are capable of simulating and producing all forms of music possible and perfecting each and every form at once -- and they can do that using a fraction of their abilities. There is no hope that I could create a form of music that the Mind could not invent if it cared to investigate the field of music; worse as soon as it felt like investigating the field it would be better than I could ever be at it.

This sort of realization is what is so soul-crushing about The Culture. Hopefully that makes it clearer

It still sounds like it boils down to this: Someone else is better, so why bother?

As for what non-Minds can do and why they are still about at all?
In the Cultureverse there many civilisations on par with or stronger than the Culture. The Culture is not the biggest civ by a long shot.
Each and every one of those big civs, in-universe known collectively as 'Involveds' all take it upon themselves to mentor (essentially) lesser civs and teach them to 'grow up' (civilisationally speaking) in their image.
By way of many different treaties there are limits as to what youre supposed to be doing with the various lesser species.
A Mind popping up to a lesser civ and saying 'hi, do everything I say and things will be awesome for you in the future' would be a massive no-no in Galactic Politics.
Hence Contact and S.C. being populated by drones and pan-humans, because they can do what the Minds are not allowed to do directly. Interfere.
Of course that interference is usually kept as benign as possible because, well, thats what the Culture is trying to instill in others.

Now its not a case that the Mind snaps its fingers with a plan and everyone hops to it. Everything they do is put to a vote, usually after a lengthy debate. humans and drones have a say and influence that decision making process.
Then, ultimately, it is the Humans on the ground actually making it happen while the Minds make sure everything is staying on track.

edit:

To just find a job and keep flying seems like a more exciting and fulfilling life

Oddly, you can do that in the Culture too. With the added bonus that monsters wont appear out of thin air and eat your soul if you dont pray right

[Forum Explorer]

Reposted in part from an earlier post

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Now, I do not know what such a society would look like but one which makes a good stab at it is in Heinlein's "Beyond this Horizon." Admittedly there are a lot of flaws and questionable assumptions in it but it has some good points:

(1) The government allocates funds for pure research and projects that might enrich human existence.

(2) Genetic selection is used to maximize pro-survival qualities (e.g. sound teeth, vibrant immune systems) but not for casual purposes (e.g. hair or skin color). The experts here are conservative in their approach.

But most importantly is what it lacks. It doesn't have Physical Gods who can (and should) undertake every major challenge left in the Universe. It doesn't assume that its rulers' judgment is infallible and beyond reproach. Most importantly it is ruled by people and not angels.

The really disgusting part of The Culture for me is that it assumes that hedonistic pursuits are the highest aim that people can have. Everything that contemporary humans would consider "great pursuits" is either done by the Minds directly or orchestrated by them -- and it should be. They are apparently so smart that they only need to use an infinitesimal amount of their capacity to keep society running and deal with external threats: they use the rest of it constructing and running elaborate simulations of Universes.

* * *

As such this "great pursuits" aren't really the domain of Man are they? No, they are the domain of Machines and Man should be left to having dual pregnancies and needlessly suicidal extreme sports. This conceit is obviously not espoused by The Culture itself but it is the logic the Universe runs on and that is what I find disgusting. I am as appalled with The Culture as I am with "Brave New World" and for similar reasons -- both societies remove "great pursuits" from the hands of Mankind.

Like many philosophical disagreements, it can be very hard for people on opposing sides to understand what the other is saying. That's basically the nature of philosophical inquiry and why I prefer a Socratic Method in these situations.

@Forum Explorer -- when "everything has been answered" one of those answers will direct what the purpose of Life is

One of my objection to Banks's work is that his answer is "hedonistic delight." Philosophically, I object to this conclusion and it is maddening to me that he has made the pursuit of greater ends irrelevant in face of the absolute Rightness of the Minds.

Then you don't so much have a problem with the Culture then with the Universe it takes place in. They figured out all the answers and discovered that there was nothing else to discover within the universe and that there was no higher purpose in life.

[Oracle_Hunter]

It still sounds like it boils down to this: Someone else is better, so why bother?

Not quite.

One entity is better at everything I could ever think of doing and, even if I devote my life to a single thing, that entity could best me whenever it wanted.

If literally every field of endeavor can be done better by a single Mind, what do I have left to do but pleasure myself?

In the Cultureverse there many civilisations on par with or stronger than the Culture. The Culture is not the biggest civ by a long shot.
Each and every one of those big civs, in-universe known collectively as 'Involveds' all take it upon themselves to mentor (essentially) lesser civs and teach them to 'grow up' (civilisationally speaking) in their image.
By way of many different treaties there are limits as to what youre supposed to be doing with the various lesser species.
A Mind popping up to a lesser civ and saying 'hi, do everything I say and things will be awesome for you in the future' would be a massive no-no in Galactic Politics.

Is there actually any evidence of The Culture being reprimanded or even balked by any other civilization out there? And I mean more than temporarily.

Hence Contact and S.C. being populated by drones and pan-humans, because they can do what the Minds are not allowed to do directly. Interfere.

That seems convenient. The meatpuppets and Drones are "allowed" to do the work that a Mind-animated puppet could do because some outside force is forbidding them from doing it. But that same force is OK with the Minds directing the activities of these puppets?

Now its not a case that the Mind snaps its fingers with a plan and everyone hops to it. Everything they do is put to a vote, usually after a lengthy debate. humans and drones have a say and influence that decision making process.

This is an interesting revelation. So, have the meatpuppets ever voted down something the Minds cared about? Did that keep the Minds from doing it anyways? In any case, were the Minds right in the end?

@Forum Explorer -- that's a fair summary. But remember that The Culture is still constructed from the mind of a man (like all fiction) and it is his conception of life and the utopia he constructs around it that is repellant. It is difficult for me to see how I could approve of The Culture while disapproving of the imagined universe that made it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh, I would hate it in the Imperium. Unless I was a Rogue Trader, if those are still around. To just find a job and keep flying seems like a more exciting and fulfilling life than having all of your needs met in the Culture. Ultimately, the Culture could collapse, and if it did, much of the organic life within would be too soft to cope with it.

If modern civilization collapsed tomorrow, much of humanity would be too soft to deal with it, almost certainly everyone in this thread included. Do you know how to sustain yourself without modern infrastructure while fending off everyone who doesn't when they inevitably try to take advantage of your rare ability? That Joe Average is screwed if his civilization falls is a given for any meaningful level of civilization; there's nothing special about the Culture that makes that different.

[Forum Explorer]

@Forum Explorer -- that's a fair summary. But remember that The Culture is still constructed from the mind of a man (like all fiction) and it is his conception of life and the utopia he constructs around it that is repellant. It is difficult for me to see how I could approve of The Culture while disapproving of the imagined universe that made it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. You are however assuming that the author believes that his interpretation to be true which may (or may not) be the case.


I guess what you'd need to do to approve of the Culture (or any fictional society) while disapproving of the universe is to picture yourself in that situation and trying to think of a better way. If you can't then while you may not actually 'approve' you'll likely at least acknowledge that the fictional society is doing the best it can with what it has.

To give an example is that I approve of the Eldar in the 40K universe. I can't think of anything they could really do that they aren't trying to do already. However in most other fictional or the real universe I would find their actions abhorrent.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh, I would hate it in the Imperium. Unless I was a Rogue Trader, if those are still around. To just find a job and keep flying seems like a more exciting and fulfilling life than having all of your needs met in the Culture. Ultimately, the Culture could collapse, and if it did, much of the organic life within would be too soft to cope with it.

Oh they're around and have their own RPG and all.

In many ways live better then most in 40k... but... they're job description also includes routinely spending time in hell just a few devices and an arrogant mutant away from disaster. Also like any boss job it surely proves less glorious on a daily basis then it might seem. (Paperwork....)

Me if I absolutely had to live in the 40k verse I'd probably go with those human populations that have defected to the Tau. Technological advancement, an inclusive if not permissive social policy and so forth means their something like hope there. If the 'Nids and Chaos don't eat everything quick enough the Tau have a better outlook then anyone. Only crap FTL really holding them back.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. You are however assuming that the author believes that his interpretation to be true which may (or may not) be the case.

Oh, he does:

From the man himself:

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Q: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?
A: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

He also thinks I'm a fascist money-loving power junkie for disagreeing but that's another matter entirely

That said, can I think of a better society? Sure.

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(1) you don't leave all your thinking to Machines, no matter how bright. Minds are partners, or possibly governors, but they don't get to rule the whole damn thing.

(2) Whomever is in charge of a planet/orbital/Sphere has to be mortal. They get to live a fixed period of time after taking office (say 100 years) before dying. Dead leaders can be banked for reference purposes but they die at the end of their terms. This makes sure your rulers are focused on the day to day and not just a thousand years down the line.

(3) You limit the Minds so that they can't just do their own things willy-nilly. They're advisors, not puppetmasters. The local ruler can refer problems to them if they want or not but the Minds don't get to suggest things.

(4) Non-interference pacts between the different "states" within The Culture and free-migration between them. Hopefully this encourages diversity not just of small-c culture but also organization. The only time the components of The Culture work together is for matters of Foreign Affairs.

(5) Foreign Affairs can be made up of immortals for all I care, but they're organics, not Machines. Their principal duties are monitoring other civilizations as threats and dealing with them. Trade and "state" defense is mostly a matter of the individual "states" but Foreign Affairs gets to decide whether to incorporate a new civilization into The Culture framework. Ideally each "state" would have its own representative in Foreign Affairs each which would have access to the Mind of that "state" for reference.

I'm pretty pleased with that. It takes care of my major concern (free-wheeling Physical Gods) and ensures a less uniform method of governance as a practical matter. By getting rid of some vast sweeping Contact or Special Circumstances groups and leaving "contact" up to the individual "states" this Culture is going to be less invasive on a universal scale and less prone to puppet-mastery.

[Tyndmyr]

Then you don't so much have a problem with the Culture then with the Universe it takes place in. They figured out all the answers and discovered that there was nothing else to discover within the universe and that there was no higher purpose in life.

Well, strictly speaking, you've got a concept of ascension in the universe...it's not entirely answered as to what that is, but the culture hasn't done it yet.

Not quite.

One entity is better at everything I could ever think of doing and, even if I devote my life to a single thing, that entity could best me whenever it wanted.

So? Not being the best is not the worst of things. There are many activities I'm not the best at, but that I enjoy immensely. I probably would not find it fun to oppose them...much like playing chess against the computer on the hardest difficulty is not fun for me. But plenty of people find enjoyment in playing against an opponent of similar difficulty.

Is there actually any evidence of The Culture being reprimanded or even balked by any other civilization out there? And I mean more than temporarily.

Full on shooting wars happen, yes. People die, sometimes permanently. Don't want to get too spoilery, but Banks' last book has the Culture's interests being balked for rather a long time(decades, I believe) as a result of international agreements, some poor choices made long ago, etc, etc. It's an advanced culture, but it's not quite the same as a perfect one.

That seems convenient. The meatpuppets and Drones are "allowed" to do the work that a Mind-animated puppet could do because some outside force is forbidding them from doing it. But that same force is OK with the Minds directing the activities of these puppets?

Well, there's a lot more nuance than that. Minds themselves, while powerful, are fairly well kept track of(and do have at least some geospatial limitation). So, if you're a mind, and you're up to large-scale mischief, on the order of messing with external cultures notably...someone's gonna find out about it. Minds can and do break the rules sometimes, but subtly, and frequently by using go-betweens. Rules to some degree also exist for humanoids too. And hell, the line between humanoid and mind is a blurry one. People frequently have technological upgrades, and a human can definitely become a mind, even though doing so is considered fairly unusual. So, if being the best is more important to you than everything else...that would be a possible path.

This is an interesting revelation. So, have the meatpuppets ever voted down something the Minds cared about? Did that keep the Minds from doing it anyways? In any case, were the Minds right in the end?

We frankly haven't had a humans vs minds conflict...at least in the books I'm aware of. Frankly, they're much more factionalized that that...there just isn't enough unity in either group to do such a thing. Given how much disunity happens between the meatpuppets here on earth, this seems reasonable.

@Forum Explorer -- that's a fair summary. But remember that The Culture is still constructed from the mind of a man (like all fiction) and it is his conception of life and the utopia he constructs around it that is repellant. It is difficult for me to see how I could approve of The Culture while disapproving of the imagined universe that made it.

It's not quite perfect. It's utopian compared to this world, sure...but it explores conflicts within it's motivations, and the motivations of the people who make it up. The Culture has weaknesses in some regards and strengths in others compared to the similar civilizations around it. One such weakness is the the Culture positively sucks at keeping secrets. An open society based on democratic decision just doesn't lend itself well to that. So, anyone that wants secrets for any reason(which might be quite legitimate) has to deal with some innate conflict with how the culture does things.

I highly recommend picking up Player of Games and starting from there. It's not really about Utopian life at all...