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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Hi.

    I'm about to start in a 12 player PvP "Last faction/player standing" game over email, and with 5 dots in Status, I am the Prince of New York City.

    How the heck can I survive this?!

    With Sabbat and Independents having a static sitting duck target, what advice could you give about defending myself?
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    evisiron, that is the most awesome character idea I have ever heard of. I'm going to subscribe to this thread and look forward to updates.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Don't be a static, sitting duck target

    Keep your Haven secret, keep your back-up havens even more secret.

    Ensure every Camarilla Kindred ( you are Camarilla right ?) knows that Elysiums are their most vulnerable spot and have them all contribute to their own survival by contributing to its defence.

    Don't be a **** to your own Kindred and make sure to remind them how they are all in this together against the vile Sabbat/Anarchs/whoever you don't like.

    You don't need all the Primogen on your side but you should have the majority

    Invest in Contacts and Influence. Have people in the police, in the media, everywhere you can. Killing vampires face-to-face is risky. Have your mortal contacts find enemies and then have your ghouls burn them at midday.

    Decide early on if you are prepared to die for your city if you'd rather be a live (undead) vampire than a dead Prince have an exit strategy ready. After all you can always come back and try again in a few hundred years
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Presumably you're in power because you have the influence and status among the Camarilla to hold it. Who else wants power in this city? Is your sheriff loyal to you? What about all his deputies and such? Do you have a scourge who is going around the sitting routing out Sabbat and destroying them?

    Also what clan are you? Auspex will help if you're directly being attacked/plotted against. Fortitude helps if it comes down to a direct fight, though probably not enough. Having a panic button like Majesty definitely helps.

    Mortal influence an certainly help. No Camarilla vampire is going to risk the Masquerade to take you out. The Sabbat though won't care about that. In fact if I were the Sabbat I'd simply cause more and more Masquerade breeches so that your sheriff and scourge are so busy cleaning up they don't have time to defend you. Not only that but if you cannot control the Masquerade in your city, you won't last long as prince. This is likely the easiest way to get you out of power (and then kill you).

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post

    Mortal influence an certainly help. No Camarilla vampire is going to risk the Masquerade to take you out. The Sabbat though won't care about that. In fact if I were the Sabbat I'd simply cause more and more Masquerade breeches so that your sheriff and scourge are so busy cleaning up they don't have time to defend you. Not only that but if you cannot control the Masquerade in your city, you won't last long as prince. This is likely the easiest way to get you out of power (and then kill you).
    Indeed its mentioned in some of the books that breaching the Masquerade is the Sabbat's favourite 'softening-up' tactic
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Invest in Obfuscate?
    "Is this 'cause I killed the hippie? Is that even illegal?"

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    First Secret: You're Nobody
    Congratulations on having that fancy title of 'Prince.' Now, realize that you'll only get to keep that role as long as you're useful. You'll want people to see you as the best choice for the moment; that way people will be tripping over themselves to offer their services to you, rather than you trying to herd cats.

    Second Secret: You're Helpless
    Even if you're a big, dangerous Brujah Elder, some crazed caitiff ghoul can still off you if he gets in a lucky shot. Do what you can to make people forget that, making your would-be assassin trip over each other while you make your escape to safer grounds.

    Third Secret: Primogens
    You'll order them around and they'll order you around. They'll explain why they're unable to carry out your orders out of respect for other orders you've given or lack of permission to perform certain actions. You'll be frustrated.
    Give them that victory; if they're satisfied watching you be frustrated, they won't be as focused on getting you to do their bidding.

    Fourth Secret: Lord Shojo
    Everyone is trying to manipulate you; blackmail and backroom deals are part of it all. Pretend to play their game, while you run your own.

    Bonus Secret: For all non-officials; if you claim Malkavian ancestry, you get to ignore a lot of social customs. Want to listen in on a conversation? Get a shard of a mirror, a week-old spanish newspaper with half the pages missing and stand right next to the people you're spying on, staring intently at the object, waving them off like flies whenever they object. Follow them until you've heard enough. [I did this in a game out-earned the whole Clan Nosferatu combined by selling the info I had gathered that obviously]
    Also, you throw people off the trail about what your clan really is.
    Watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo, never trust an elf and never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    Hi.

    I'm about to start in a 12 player PvP "Last faction/player standing" game over email, and with 5 dots in Status, I am the Prince of New York City.

    How the heck can I survive this?!

    With Sabbat and Independents having a static sitting duck target, what advice could you give about defending myself?
    Cheat.

    no, seriously.


    There are lots of ways to go about "cheating".

    It would help if we knew what your power level, other than status.

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Caliphbubba View Post
    Cheat.

    no, seriously.


    There are lots of ways to go about "cheating".

    It would help if we knew what your power level, other than status.
    Standard character with the usual 15 freebie points.
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    Referring to Pop Yule Ashun:
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberRebirth View Post
    evisiron, that is the most awesome character idea I have ever heard of. I'm going to subscribe to this thread and look forward to updates.

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    Standard character with the usual 15 freebie points.
    HOLD IT ! You're expected to rule a major ( and conflict ridden city) like New York with a BASIC charcter.

    Run, run now

    Or take Resources 5 and move your P.C. to a solidly Camarilla city in the first session and retire in luxury
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    Standard character with the usual 15 freebie points.
    Get a mentor to be the real power behind your throne, and kowtow to him shamelessly?

    I mean, unless your New York has even fewer elders in it than usual (i.e. literally none) you don't have a chance.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    My only contact with VtM was the video game by Troika and even I know you're screwed. The Prince of LA in that game was 200 years old and I think seventh gen and even he was hopelessly out of his depth.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Or, wait.

    Are there more than twelve vampires in the city, or is every PC actually every Camarilla character?
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    Standard character with the usual 15 freebie points.
    Your only chance, and I mean ONLY chance, is to feign incompetence. Admit to your lack of power, and feign political inexperience. Seek advice from the leaders of the other factions, and actively solicit bribes for favors. Basically, try to set yourself up as a useful figurehead, so other factions think that having you in power is functionally the same as having the power themselves without the risk of people taking potshots at them. Set people up to target other factions to encourage infighting to weaken your political opponents, while pretending friendship. When someone complains about your decisions, shift the blame such that you were "advised" by someone else and try to keep yourself seen as an ultimately useful pawn by all sides. And if necessary, be prepared to abdicate to prevent being destroyed, because if you lose power you can always try to regain it later if and only if you are still not completely dead.

    But if you try to be the competent leader and assert direct rather than manipulative control, you're going to get stomped by a faction with more raw power than you who feels your leadership is conflicting with their goals. Similarly, if you feign too much incompetence you're going to get stomped by someone who feels the stability needed for their plans is being undermined by the failings of your leadership. You're going to have to walk a very fine line and hope that the other PCs are relatively subtle in their machinations and clue the ST in to what you're running with the NPCs.
    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    Or, wait.

    Are there more than twelve vampires in the city, or is every PC actually every Camarilla character?
    Haha, it gets better. The 12 PCs are dived equally between Camarilla, Sabbat and Independants, so right off the bat there are 8 vampires gunning for my blood. Plus there is nothing to say the Camarilla ones are 'allies' as such, so better round it off to 11 would be assassins.

    Plot wise, my character background details how he lucked into the position as the previous Prince was brutally murdered along with the witnesses, and few Elders were willing to risk taking the risk until the assassin was found.
    Some manipulation with the Primogen to make them each think they benefited the most from this youngster being dropped on the throne, and we have a starter level Prince. This belief and a heavily fortified Haven powered by absurd wealth and paranoia to hide in has kept him him unliving for this long.

    Hopefully with so much PvP in the air the Storyteller won't be pushing too hard for Elders trying to usurp me.
    One of my friends is on the Sabbat side, and he has been playing for a long time amongst the most nefarious players I have every encountered. The Masquerade is going to suffer, big time.

    My nights are numbered from the get go, but how often will I get the chance to sit in the Big Shiny Chair?

    All the advice has been top class, so a big thank you to everyone who took the time to chip in. I'll be using as much of it as I can to stay unliving as long as I can.
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    Referring to Pop Yule Ashun:
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberRebirth View Post
    evisiron, that is the most awesome character idea I have ever heard of. I'm going to subscribe to this thread and look forward to updates.

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    Haha, it gets better. The 12 PCs are dived equally between Camarilla, Sabbat and Independants, so right off the bat there are 8 vampires gunning for my blood. Plus there is nothing to say the Camarilla ones are 'allies' as such, so better round it off to 11 would be assassins.

    Plot wise, my character background details how he lucked into the position as the previous Prince was brutally murdered along with the witnesses, and few Elders were willing to risk taking the risk until the assassin was found.
    Some manipulation with the Primogen to make them each think they benefited the most from this youngster being dropped on the throne, and we have a starter level Prince. This belief and a heavily fortified Haven powered by absurd wealth and paranoia to hide in has kept him him unliving for this long.

    Hopefully with so much PvP in the air the Storyteller won't be pushing too hard for Elders trying to usurp me.
    One of my friends is on the Sabbat side, and he has been playing for a long time amongst the most nefarious players I have every encountered. The Masquerade is going to suffer, big time.

    My nights are numbered from the get go, but how often will I get the chance to sit in the Big Shiny Chair?

    All the advice has been top class, so a big thank you to everyone who took the time to chip in. I'll be using as much of it as I can to stay unliving as long as I can.
    Oh, man, that is exciting. And totally reasonable, although I'd be terrified to be the stalking goat. ;)

    Okay, here are my thoughts.

    1) You're not automatically at war with the Independents, so maybe see about getting some of them to be more or less supporters of yours. Convince them that the Independent Clans also benefit from a relatively weak Prince on the throne and the Primogen watching each other suspiciously. You have the advantage that it's true!
    2) Convince the Sabbat that you're just a puppet, and that your death will unite the Camarilla against them. If you can keep the manipulation going, you will at least be the last Camarilla guy to get killed. ;)
    3) [This might be a little unfair, but...] Target the players that don't know the game as well, or that are a bit more honest. Make those your pawns and allies. While everyone else is gathering system-mastery friends, you can make perfect patsies. If everyone is equally masterful, this obviously doesn't work, and you also don't want to push it to the friendship-damaging point (equally obviously), but it is a surprisingly effective tactic a lot of the time.
    4) Information! Get some blackmail together, and arrange for it all to come to light when you die. Once you have enough of it, make sure that the people you've got dirt on (and only they) know you have dirt on them. You'll either survive, or you'll set off a hilarious clusterfun when you go.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    Oh, man, that is exciting. And totally reasonable, although I'd be terrified to be the stalking goat. ;)

    Okay, here are my thoughts.

    1) You're not automatically at war with the Independents, so maybe see about getting some of them to be more or less supporters of yours. Convince them that the Independent Clans also benefit from a relatively weak Prince on the throne and the Primogen watching each other suspiciously. You have the advantage that it's true!
    2) Convince the Sabbat that you're just a puppet, and that your death will unite the Camarilla against them. If you can keep the manipulation going, you will at least be the last Camarilla guy to get killed. ;)
    3) [This might be a little unfair, but...] Target the players that don't know the game as well, or that are a bit more honest. Make those your pawns and allies. While everyone else is gathering system-mastery friends, you can make perfect patsies. If everyone is equally masterful, this obviously doesn't work, and you also don't want to push it to the friendship-damaging point (equally obviously), but it is a surprisingly effective tactic a lot of the time.
    4) Information! Get some blackmail together, and arrange for it all to come to light when you die. Once you have enough of it, make sure that the people you've got dirt on (and only they) know you have dirt on them. You'll either survive, or you'll set off a hilarious clusterfun when you go.
    I'm Golentan and I approve this message.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    Standard character with the usual 15 freebie points.
    ohhhh buddy.... the other posters have given you some good advice from a character perspective. manipulate, misdirect, blackmail...you're gonna need all of it.

    I'm gonna go ahead and give you some from a character creation perspective. If you haven't already made your character I'm going to advise you to go ahead and get Dominate 5 or Obfuscate 5 at character creation. Both of them make you really, and I mean REALLLY hard to kill. It'll be a huge drain on your freebies, but you can do it.

    Both of them will allow you to create the situations you'll need to create to keep everyone else off balance.

    If you go with Obfuscate, try and get the merits "False Reflection" an "Sleep while Hidden". they require you to be a nosferatu, but they will save your life.

    good luck man.

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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Okay. You're not going to hold this position long-term unless EVERYTHING falls your way. Accept this.

    Try to work so that things start falling your way, or at least make it look like you're doing so. Try to make it look like you're doing your job. BUT have an escape plan. Cut a deal with a good ally to hand power over to them and get yourself a minor position, if possible. Like harpy, or something else that wields power but isn't usually worth killing over.

    If a big scandal hits you, seriously consider resigning, provided your allies are set up appropriately.

    Basically, try to have a way to land on your feet.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    First, you're not automatically at war with the independents (though, make no mistake, it's a definite possibility), so try to get them on your side.

    You need the other three members of the Camarilla to be utterly loyal to you as well, to avoid being sold out to your enemies, because there are simply too few people to create "ablative minions" (want to get to the Prince? Well, deal with X, Y, and Z and then you can get a shot at him).

    Standard rules? Go Presence 4 and ruthlessly summon your enemies one by one to show up in a prepared location to be ripped apart by your minions (mortal or vampire).
    Dominate 2 (preferably 3) or above also works wonders with getting mortal minions, which will be what you have to use to sabotage your enemies, keep your haven safe and unwittingly become suicide bombers.

    There's also a bold option: Step down. When you feel the heat gets too much, make an announcement that due to "the rising Sabbat threat" you are declaring martial law and ceding responsibility to the Sheriff or somesuch. The Sheriff will have to keep fighting your enemies, has a big bullseye on his back and no one cares about you until he's dead.

    Influence and Contacts background should be your strong suits. Contacts (IRS) and Influence ([Gas or electric company]) can get you surprisingly far in getting finding out where your enemies have their havens (Nosferatu not included).
    Watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo, never trust an elf and never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Need_A_Life View Post
    First, you're not automatically at war with the independents (though, make no mistake, it's a definite possibility), so try to get them on your side.

    You need the other three members of the Camarilla to be utterly loyal to you as well, to avoid being sold out to your enemies, because there are simply too few people to create "ablative minions" (want to get to the Prince? Well, deal with X, Y, and Z and then you can get a shot at him).

    Standard rules? Go Presence 4 and ruthlessly summon your enemies one by one to show up in a prepared location to be ripped apart by your minions (mortal or vampire).
    Dominate 2 (preferably 3) or above also works wonders with getting mortal minions, which will be what you have to use to sabotage your enemies, keep your haven safe and unwittingly become suicide bombers.

    There's also a bold option: Step down. When you feel the heat gets too much, make an announcement that due to "the rising Sabbat threat" you are declaring martial law and ceding responsibility to the Sheriff or somesuch. The Sheriff will have to keep fighting your enemies, has a big bullseye on his back and no one cares about you until he's dead.

    Influence and Contacts background should be your strong suits. Contacts (IRS) and Influence ([Gas or electric company]) can get you surprisingly far in getting finding out where your enemies have their havens (Nosferatu not included).
    Except he is automatically at war with the independents, and technically the other Camarilla - it's a pure PvP "last man standing" game, according to the OP.
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    Default Re: VtM: Surviving as a Prince

    Unless the people are very experienced with Vampire, a pure PvP mentality will likely have people making combat oriented characters. I would spend my freebies (and backgrounds and such) on allies/mentors and the like. You'll need to do this unless you feel you can convince them in game to be your allies. As a neonate prince I find it laughable that anyone will want to be your ally. They'll just exploit you to their own ends. So you need to buy them. Either with freebies to start or with boons once the game is on.

    Firstly, for the Sabbat. They are not welcome in any Cam city anyway. They are essentially automatically bloodhunted. Offer extra incentives via boons from the praxis of the city for those who bring in Sabbat for interrogation and/or destruction. Remind people that aiding the Sabbat is akin to being the Sabbat and carries with it the same automatic blood hunt.

    For the independents, require all of them to present themselves to you since you need to get a feel for how many of them are in the city. If any of the independents don't have any links to sires or other power players in the city, tell them that the city is too full and has too many Sabbat and that they are not welcome here. If they don't leave by the next evening they will be bloodhunted. For those who you cannot remove for political reason, try to deal with the higher ups in their clans. Offer their clanmates boons or something to let you kick the newbies out of the city.

    Actually the same logic can go for the other Camarilla players as well. You're the prince of the city. You get to decide whether or not they can stay in the city. And also remember, blood hunts cannot be rescinded. Once you are bloodhunted in a city you are ALWAYS bloodhunted in a city regardless of change in leadership. New princes may not choose to enforce it, but it means the one who is bloodhunted can be destroyed at whim with no official consequences.

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