LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

[Mystic Muse]

Make sure you watch the whole thing.

Nice by him. I was expecting that to go in an entirely different direction.

[KenderWizard]

Turns out there was a demonstration in Dublin today for trans rights but I only heard about it now so I wasn't there.

Any thoughts? I usually say "female doctors" or whatever because it sounds better than "women doctors" or "doctors who are women".

I've never really heard of people saying "male doctors" and "women doctors". I guess people are more likely to say "women doctors" than "men doctors", but I generally hear both "male" and "female". So... dunno! I use "female".

Actually, I got annoyed at a headline I saw the other day that was "Female Garda injured in bar brawl". If it'd been a male Garda, they would have just said "Garda". It's not important that she was a woman.

[noparlpf]

Turns out there was a demonstration in Dublin today for trans rights but I only heard about it now so I wasn't there.

Pity. Maybe next time?

I've never really heard of people saying "male doctors" and "women doctors". I guess people are more likely to say "women doctors" than "men doctors", but I generally hear both "male" and "female". So... dunno! I use "female".

Actually, I got annoyed at a headline I saw the other day that was "Female Garda injured in bar brawl". If it'd been a male Garda, they would have just said "Garda". It's not important that she was a woman.

Based on a quick Google search, those are your cops, right? Seems kind of silly to specify, but that does sound like our current culture.

[Mina Kobold]

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Huh. Interesting... I had not known that. Makes what was done to Angel rather more confusing, though.

(Warning: Some spoilers about Buffy: The Vampire Slayer)

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The curse brought Angel's soul back and put it in charge, but did not remove the demon. This left Angel with all the grief of what Angelus (evil-Angel) had caused, which was the point of the curse. Suffering.

Essentially, the shared memory of the demon and soul meant that the people who did the curse did not differentiate between them. They wanted Angelus punished, and giving the mass-murdering psychopath a conscience by restoring another part of them to power was the most cruel punishment they had. It was revenge, not justice.

Make sure you watch the whole thing.

*Applause*

That was amazing, congratulations to them. ^_^

[Lady Serpentine]

Garda? (I feel like I should know what that is, but I can't seem to bludgeon my brain into telling me...)

On the whole counter-petition thing, much as I support the idea of it, I'm uncomfortable giving out personal information, so... Yeah. Is there any way to get around that?

Edit:

(As Keveak warned:)

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Ah, I see. My understanding had been that it restored his memory, which, since you said they retained that, made very little sense. That's considerably more logical as far as the mechanical aspects, in that case.

Also, my understanding is that removing the demon would have been pretty much impossible in any case - is that accurate, or was it intentionally left behind?

[Coidzor]

(Warning: Some spoilers about Buffy: The Vampire Slayer)

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The curse brought Angel's soul back and put it in charge, but did not remove the demon. This left Angel with all the grief of what Angelus (evil-Angel) had caused, which was the point of the curse. Suffering.

Essentially, the shared memory of the demon and soul meant that the people who did the curse did not differentiate between them. They wanted Angelus punished, and giving the mass-murdering psychopath a conscience by restoring another part of them to power was the most cruel punishment they had. It was revenge, not justice.

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Yeah, even that still doesn't make sense. It's too convoluted for them to have been blind in their rage and too simple for them to have been crafty enough to have done so.

Honestly the best thing to do is just smile and nod and wait until Joss Whedon isn't looking anymore and scarper.

SiuiS:

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I don't quite see what I said as a moral argument. I know moral arguments could be made involving the topic, but I tried to keep it to a purely intellectual statement. When I include my own feelings on the subject, you get a different response.

I didn't say anything about you making a moral argument. You're still touching upon moral philosophy where it interacts with humans and their morality, obedience to authority/moral precepts enshrined in law, and responses to the punishment of others. To fully discuss the subject, one would have to dip further into moral philosophy as well as political philosophy which I imagine would get messy quickly.

Which is to say, I don't think your statement is really possible or appropriate to rebut properly in this venue, but that a legitimate rebuttal is quite possible.

Well yes, it is a case of which p these two choices sucks the least in the interim.

Indeed, but it didn't really seem pertinent to bring up in the first place. Also, cure is an odd word choice, because it implied either excising the causes for rape from humanity, which would make punishing rape in an attempt of debatable efficacy to deter it rather unnecessary, or managing to completely undo the social and personal ills and harm that it causes.

[Absol197]

Make sure you watch the whole thing.

My day has just started, and this has made it !


~Phoenix~

[Rawhide]

The disintegrate, actually. They turn to dust upon staking, not ash. Usually that would be because of decomposition symbolically catching up, but in Buffy that does indeed need another explanation. I personally go with the cause being that stabbing the heart disrupts or kills the demon which possess them, thus tearing their now-normal corpses apart. :3

This was actually explained in the show. The reason they turned to dust was mystical in nature and intended to help hide the existence of vampires.

They are demons? I confess to disliking Buffy and related shows enough not to bother with them. Charmed is particularly high on my unnecessary dislike list.

That's a pity, it was an excellent series. And quite relevant to this thread too. Other than the feminist side to it, it also dealt with some LGBT issues (such as having an ongoing lesbian relationship within the main cast which was applauded as being played realistically and not for sensationalism).

[Mina Kobold]

(As Keveak warned:)

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Ah, I see. My understanding had been that it restored his memory, which, since you said they retained that, made very little sense. That's considerably more logical as far as the mechanical aspects, in that case.

Also, my understanding is that removing the demon would have been pretty much impossible in any case - is that accurate, or was it intentionally left behind?

(Still warned. :3)

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Indeed, Angelus always had the memory of Liam's (Angel's name before dying) life, Angelus just plain did not care.

Pretty sure the only way to remove it would be to kill Angel, yup! I think they did want it to stay though. I forgot it before, but they mention that the demon still experiences the emotions Angel do, so it would actually directly suffer from the curse. Sorry for forgetting that. ^_^'

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Yeah, even that still doesn't make sense. It's too convoluted for them to have been blind in their rage and too simple for them to have been crafty enough to have done so.

Honestly the best thing to do is just smile and nod and wait until Joss Whedon isn't looking anymore and scarper.

(Still!)

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As I said, I forgot the part about the demon being forced to share in what Angel feels. They were vengeful enough to cause immense suffering to Angel just to harm Angelus, not confused about the relationship between soul and demon. Sorry!

They are more blood-feud than either blind rage or crafty. The curse was made when one of theirs were killed and they worked to enforce the suffering for almost a century. Eep. ._.

Also, do not take my explanation as a gauge of how much sense it makes. I am not looking it up and am terrible at explaining stuff that I learnt from a story arch of a television series. ^_^'

Back on topic: Too bad you missed it, Kender. Maybe you could help plan the next thing the group behind it does?

[Lentrax]

Make sure you watch the whole thing.

Wow. I didn't honestly know where he was going with that. Brilliantly planned and executed.

Does anyone know how to give cookies to someone who isn't here?

[Arachu]

After the Van Helsing incident, the Count would have to keep a low profile... The drug trade must be the Vampires' true source of blood, the Red Cross is just a distraction! O_O

D:

It was a joke based off of your own allusion of autstralia, an a pun off of ought meaning zero, although I think I bungled the spelling.

I thought you meant a nation of procrastinators.

I... Oh man. Oh no. That sucks. That really sucks. And... None of it means a darn thing does it? It doesn't matter a lick if anyone there supports transgender rights or made rousing speeches on the subject I every moonstruck one of them voted down what they themselves stood for.


This is phenomenally depressing.

*Hugs!*

Edit: Found picture of Helio's first pole dancing lesson

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Apparently some of her friends are having problems with the concept.

I think he's a he right now, but

[SPOILER]Also, I wasn't hallucinating when I read that full immersion in running water could kill vampires, right? Because I ended up mentioning that in an essay I had to write on it, and someone said that it wasn't in the book...

I know that DnD vamps have that problem. And ones in a lot of fiction have similar (ranging from avoiding it to being burned alive by it)... I have no idea where it started, though. Or if it's in that book (which I should read at some point ).

Turns out there was a demonstration in Dublin today for trans rights but I only heard about it now so I wasn't there.

*Hugs*


~Bianca

[Coidzor]

(Still!)

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As I said, I forgot the part about the demon being forced to share in what Angel feels. They were vengeful enough to cause immense suffering to Angel just to harm Angelus, not confused about the relationship between soul and demon. Sorry!

They are more blood-feud than either blind rage or crafty. The curse was made when one of theirs were killed and they worked to enforce the suffering for almost a century. Eep. ._.

Also, do not take my explanation as a gauge of how much sense it makes. I am not looking it up and am terrible at explaining stuff that I learnt from a story arch of a television series. ^_^'

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Oh, I've seen it. I just haven't seen it in a while so my memory is hazy beyond it being an example of how while I enjoy Joss Whedon, and on the whole, he's pretty good at his job, sometimes he messes up.

I mean, this is one of the bigger beefs with the man that I have, so that should say something, haha.

[Rawhide]

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Oh, I've seen it. I just haven't seen it in a while so my memory is hazy beyond it being an example of how while I enjoy Joss Whedon, and on the whole, he's pretty good at his job, sometimes he messes up.

I mean, this is one of the bigger beefs with the man that I have, so that should say something, haha.

Angel (from Buffy and later Angel):

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I see absolutely nothing wrong with it (Joss' writing of the curse). They wanted to punish him, they didn't care that the being they were punishing was a soulless demon which was inhabiting the body of a dead man and returned the soul of the dead man to his body in order to do so, thus actually punishing the long dead man who's only crime in this case was dying.

Also, whenever Angelus returns, he mentions how much he loathed being trapped behind Angel.

[Mina Kobold]

I know that DnD vamps have that problem. And ones in a lot of fiction have similar (ranging from avoiding it to being burned alive by it)... I have no idea where it started, though. Or if it's in that book (which I should read at some point ).

~Bianca

I completely forgot to respond to that part, thanks for reminding me! ^_^

As far as I know, Vampires are by folklore incapable of crossing running water by themselves. It is akin to not being able to enter human dwellings without invitation, but immersion does not seem to be mentioned often. It could have been mentioned in the book, but I do not recall it myself.

[Asta Kask]

I completely forgot to respond to that part, thanks for reminding me! ^_^

As far as I know, Vampires are by folklore incapable of crossing running water by themselves. It is akin to not being able to enter human dwellings without invitation, but immersion does not seem to be mentioned often. It could have been mentioned in the book, but I do not recall it myself.

The reason being that that vampires represent infection and infections don't thrive in running water. For the same reason, vampires loathe salt (disinfectant) and garlic (symbol for health).

Did you know that most staples of the werewolf myth (silver, man-beast, vulnerable to wolfsbane) were invented out of whole cloth for one of the early werewolf movies (the name eludes me ATM)?

[Lady Serpentine]

There are also associations with boundaries of various sorts, as well as life and/or death directly, though that certainly played a part too. (This was actually what I ended up writing my essay on, for the most part. Fun stuff.)

And I thought that silver, at least, was more traditional, and because of the fact that it has antibacterial properties to some extent, and thus was considered something that could purge disease, as well as, depending on which type of werewolf you mean, sometimes being associated with the moon? (Also, weren't they originally killed by fire as well?)

[Mina Kobold]

The reason being that that vampires represent infection and infections don't thrive in running water. For the same reason, vampires loathe salt (disinfectant) and garlic (symbol for health).

Did you know that most staples of the werewolf myth (silver, man-beast, vulnerable to wolfsbane) were invented out of whole cloth for one of the early werewolf movies (the name eludes me ATM)?

Ooh, interesting. I did not know that. Makes a lot of sense, although I wonder why they could not enter uninvited if they represent infections...

I do however know that at least one medieval story had a vampire harmed by a silver knife, which may be the origin of that myth. According to Wikipedia, the Wolf's Bane was often used in medieval remedies against lycantrophy, but that is Wikipedia. Not sure what man-beast refers to, though. Other than that, I think you are correct.

Could it have been The Wolf Man? It is the earliest film other than Werewolf of London, which apparently did not use those staples. ^_^

[Asta Kask]

I do however know that at least one medieval story had a vampire harmed by a silver knife, which may be the origin of that myth. According to Wikipedia, the Wolf's Bane was often used in medieval remedies against lycantrophy, but that is Wikipedia. Not sure what man-beast refers to, though. Other than that, I think you are correct.

The man-beast is a symbol for PMS or PMT, which turns some women into snarling monsters for a couple of days each month. The correct way to combat a werewolf is with chocolate, red wine and footrubs.

*hides*

[bluewind95]

Remember what I posted yesterday? Guess it isn't happening.

Nooo! That's awful! How can they let those bigots win?!

Well bugger. That's crappy. We should start a counter-petition.

There's one.

Broken Link.

But I have the right one...

Signed. I wish I knew more people to send it to.

I've never really heard of people saying "male doctors" and "women doctors". I guess people are more likely to say "women doctors" than "men doctors", but I generally hear both "male" and "female". So... dunno! I use "female".

Actually, I got annoyed at a headline I saw the other day that was "Female Garda injured in bar brawl". If it'd been a male Garda, they would have just said "Garda". It's not important that she was a woman.

I think that's the benefit of having gendered nouns. We don't say "male doctor". We just say "doctor". For a female, it's "doctora". Much less confusing that way.

... I bet without gendered nouns, when someone says "teacher", they picture a female, and when they say "nurse", they picture a female too. And then when they talk about a male, they go "male teacher" and "male nurse".

[Lady Serpentine]

Teacher not so much. But 'male nurse' is definitely used, yes.

[Selpharia]

I think teacher starts out assumed female in elementary school, but becomes neuter once it is clear that you're no longer talking about young children.

That video was a great about-face, I really enjoyed it.

[Asta Kask]

And the same arguments were used against the abolitionists in the 19th century. But it's important to point out that there were religious people on both sides of the issue - it's not like there was a Christian monolith opposing the end of slavery and segregation. Or, indeed, LGBTA rights. In fact, I don't believe there's a Christian monolith regarding anything. Hell, we have a lesbian bishop in Sweden.

[KenderWizard]

Based on a quick Google search, those are your cops, right? Seems kind of silly to specify, but that does sound like our current culture.

Garda? (I feel like I should know what that is, but I can't seem to bludgeon my brain into telling me...)

Yes, the Gardai are the police. One Garda, two Gardai. Or "the guards".

Back on topic: Too bad you missed it, Kender. Maybe you could help plan the next thing the group behind it does?

I think it was a collection of groups, which is good. It's the five year anniversary of a woman who won a suit to be legally recognised as a woman, but there hasn't been any legislation put in place to apply that to everyone. Course, that's nothing, it's been 20 years since the courts ruled abortion was okay in case of danger to the mother and they still haven't legislated for that either, so, y'know...

The man-beast is a symbol for PMS or PMT, which turns some women into snarling monsters for a couple of days each month. The correct way to combat a werewolf is with chocolate, red wine and footrubs.

*hides*

-_-

[Coidzor]

The man-beast is a symbol for PMS or PMT, which turns some women into snarling monsters for a couple of days each month. The correct way to combat a werewolf is with chocolate, red wine and footrubs.

*hides*

I've heard worse.

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Like the one where women getting cranky because of PMS or their period is because they're too repressed/X to be honest with themselves about their sexual desires and/or can't deal with their biological processes that are going on and fulfilling said desires.

[Mina Kobold]

The man-beast is a symbol for PMS or PMT, which turns some women into snarling monsters for a couple of days each month. The correct way to combat a werewolf is with chocolate, red wine and footrubs.

*hides*

I actually meant what you were referring to by saying "man-beast". I did not catch whether you meant the "person changing into animal" part, the "Person becomes a beast in mind" part or the "Person becoming a mix of human and animal" part. ^_^'

Also, footrubs? Those are not a torture method? ._.

*Catches and stares sternly at*

Nooo! That's awful! How can they let those bigots win?!

Hopefully less and less people will do so. This might even be a time where the counter-petition completely levels the bigots. ^_^

I think that's the benefit of having gendered nouns. We don't say "male doctor". We just say "doctor". For a female, it's "doctora". Much less confusing that way.

... I bet without gendered nouns, when someone says "teacher", they picture a female, and when they say "nurse", they picture a female too. And then when they talk about a male, they go "male teacher" and "male nurse".

I kind of like the idea of gendered nouns, but I am always saddened that it tends to be used to make male even more of an assumed standard. Also gets confusing when trying to refer to someone who is not binary or whose gender I do not know. But other than that, it can be fun.

A bit of a scary fact, in Danish you do not assume a nurse is female. The word itself only refers to females, in the manner that Stewardess or Mistress does. The male version refers to a strictly different profession. And the stigma seems to very much reinforce that. ;_;

And the same arguments were used against the abolitionists in the 19th century. But it's important to point out that there were religious people on both sides of the issue - it's not like there was a Christian monolith opposing the end of slavery and segregation. Or, indeed, LGBTA rights. In fact, I don't believe there's a Christian monolith regarding anything. Hell, we have a lesbian bishop in Sweden.

I think the point was that the kind of arguments used (Appeal to authority, circular arguments, appeal to tradition) should not be the basis of any policy, since they can be used to support pretty much any cause. Religion is not necessarily the issue, as I think the Reverend (The speaker introduced themself as one) would probably be one of the religious people on this side.

I think the USA's Constitution or vague references to the colonist ancestor's of many Americans have been used as the basis of the argument too, actually, but I am not sure by whom. ^_^'

[Asta Kask]

I actually meant what you were referring to by saying "man-beast". I did not catch whether you meant the "person changing into animal" part, the "Person becomes a beast in mind" part or the "Person becoming a mix of human and animal" part. ^_^'

Also, footrubs? Those are not a torture method? ._.

*Catches and stares sternly at*

The crinos form. Neither man nor beast. In traditional legends you turn into a wolf (or bear, or jaguar, or whatever), but not a mixture of the two. Sometimes it's a very badass beast, but it's a beast.

I think the point was that the kind of arguments used (Appeal to authority, circular arguments, appeal to tradition) should not be the basis of any policy, since they can be used to support pretty much any cause. Religion is not necessarily the issue, as I think the Reverend (The speaker introduced themself as one) would probably be one of the religious people on this side.

I think the USA's Constitution or vague references to the colonist ancestor's of many Americans have been used as the basis of the argument too, actually, but I am not sure by whom. ^_^'

Arguments from authority are valid as long as the person you're referring to is really an authority. Referring to Rich on the OotS universe is valid - saying that what he says goes is practically a tautology since it's his invention. If you try to refer to Rich as an authority of Aztec glyphs you are on shakier ground. Disregarding the possibility that Rich actually has done studying, of course.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Hey all, just dropping in because I saw this I figured it might interest some of you, dunno if it's already been posted.

Related:

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[Mina Kobold]

The crinos form. Neither man nor beast. In traditional legends you turn into a wolf (or bear, or jaguar, or whatever), but not a mixture of the two. Sometimes it's a very badass beast, but it's a beast.

I see. That makes sense. The cost of creating a fake wolf or training a real one certainly would explain why the early films opted for a re-imagining.

Arguments from authority are valid as long as the person you're referring to is really an authority. Referring to Rich on the OotS universe is valid - saying that what he says goes is practically a tautology since it's his invention. If you try to refer to Rich as an authority of Aztec glyphs you are on shakier ground. Disregarding the possibility that Rich actually has done studying, of course.

It is, but an appeal to authority is not. Similarly to an appeal to tradition, an appeal to authority is trying to argue that something being an authority (on the subject or not) makes their information correct, rather than the merit of their information itself. It can certainly be true, it is just not a very good way to argue. ^_^

Saying that Rich is an authority and thus is more right about Aztec glyphs than either of us would actually be the Appeal to Authority. Rich being an authority on OotS because OotS is Rich's comic appeals to logic (Rich is not right because Rich is an authority, but because it logically follows).

At least, that is my understanding of the terminology. It has a chart! :3

[Coidzor]

Charts. Charts make everything better.

Honestly never understood the fascination with two-spirits, though. Arguing that we should be putting people on pedestals when we're still working to get other people to view them as human always seemed... odd. Counterproductive, even. Like that one stereotype about gay men being magical singing, dancing fashionistas instead of, y'know, human beings.

Sort of reminds me of the madonna-whore dichotomy some people still have in this day and age, except it's not in one person, generally.

I admit, it feels like I'm missing something, but it usually comes off as "we should take this view and social structure that we've stitched together from several different cultures whole-sale."

[Kindablue]

Honestly never understood the fascination with two-spirits, though. Arguing that we should be putting people on pedestals when we're still working to get other people to view them as human always seemed... odd. Counterproductive, even. Like that one stereotype about gay men being magical singing, dancing fashionistas instead of, y'know, human beings.

Sort of reminds me of the madonna-whore dichotomy some people still have in this day and age, except it's not in one person, generally.

I admit, it feels like I'm missing something, but it usually comes off as "we should take this view and social structure that we've stitched together from several different cultures whole-sale."

They get brought up almost always as a reminder that homosexuality is pan-cultural, and that treatment of them is culturally relative.