LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

[Lentrax]

It's usually pretty sharp and definite. This time I started feeling a bit uneasy about being female Thursday night, and woke up Friday morning feeling definitely male. Sometimes I go through intermediate stages - androgyny or gendermeh (the former I define as wanting people to look at me and not be sure if I'm male or female, the latter I define as simply not caring either way) - but normally it's pretty well defined.

So, Helio, what you're saying is that 'its that time of the month' for you?

Yeah. That prolly crossed a line or two. Hopefully I don't hear too many complaints and/or groans about it.

[Mina Kobold]

The LGBTAP NaNoWriMo Challenge!

Hey folks!

I had a rather cool idea on the train home this morning. As some of you may know, November is National Novel Writing Month and I had a really spiffy idea for us all. The normal format of NaNoWriMo is a 50,000 word story written over the course of the month but I'd like to tweak the idea slightly for us.

The challenge, should you choose to accept it is write a story based on this premise:

Science has finally achieved a lifelong dream of many folks in this thread and created the Aphrodite Machine. This wondrous device basically turns someone into the opposite gender in the space of about 30 minutes. The figure that steps out of the machine is still recognisable as the person that went in but a flawlessly transitioned version. So for example, a man with red hair and grey eyes steps in and a woman with red hair and grey eyes steps out. One small catch is that using the machine will render you infertile, so unfortunately people that use the device will never be able to have children.

So your story could be from the perspective of the person creating the device, it could be someone using it for the first time or a friend that has a relative/friend using it - pretty much anything you like, provided you stick to the core concept. If you've ever read the short story collection "Machine of Death", this is the LGBTA version of it.

Naturally, we're not looking for a 50,000 word behemoth from each of you - this ideally would be a collection of short stories - maybe 10k words or so.


Any takers?

I like that idea. Although I can be pretty busy, I will try to contribute as well as I can!

Now I only need to think of a story to make. So many wonderfully horrifying or terribly adorable possibilities! ^_^

[Mono Vertigo]

Hey guys!
Very minor personal problem here, but I'd appreciate your input.

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Remember the community I mentioned in my least interesting rants? The one that started out completely SJ-unrelated but that has been since overrun by aggressive SJ people? Well, I'm finally leaving it! Good news for you, no more whining from me! (Yes, it's that comm where one can claim demisexuals are heterosexuals trying to look special and NOT fear any reprimand from mods, and you must be THAT oppressed to give your opinion. I'm pretty sure they don't like allies either.)
Someone mentioned in a post what kind of language wasn't tolerated (aka ableism, racism, religious, gender-based or sexuality-based slurs; no more precision than brief mention of misogyny) in response to a complaint. I myself raised an objection that I thought was formulated in such a way I thought nobody could deduce I was racist/misogynist/etc. Well, I received answers that oscillate between nasty snark and mistrustful side-eyeing, and that was the last straw.
Still, I need to know if I did say something bad without noticing it. You know better than I do if I'm implying offensive stuff without meaning it. I would greatly appreciate your advice.
Here is my post in question:

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"Now, I have an objection to make:
the rules do not state that slurs directed toward certain populations are accepted. I've certainly seen misandrist and anti-white slurs being thrown about with no bad repercussion for those who typed them, often with the defense that there is no such thing as misandry or anti-white racism.
I think that should be clarified that gender-based slurs are okay if they are against cismen, and racial slurs okay if they are against whites. The way things are formulated right now, it sounds like you can't insult someone at all for having a gender or a race they had never chosen to have and can't change."

And some of the answers I got, paraphrased:

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- Are you for real? You're hilarious!
- Oh you're right, that should soo be fixed... just kidding, there's no such thing as anti-white racism. I can't believe there are people who would seriously be thinking that.
- [words that are censored by this forum's filter] aren't slurs, just language I wouldn't use everywhere.
- And what would be those mythical "misandrist slurs" you're speaking of?

@Succubus: nice idea! I needed to go back to writing!
Alas, at first glance, that prompt isn't giving me any idea. Hope I can find a creative spin on it in time. Plus, I don't think I'd be able to write down 10k words from that, it would be more like a couple-pages short story. Oh well, I'll try.

[Astrella]

@Musashi; I don't think Western society has institutionalized oppression towards men or white people on the same level as towards women / people of colour; HOWEVER, using insults targeting any group basically makes you an ass. Using slurs against anyone because of a group they belong to is totally NOT okay in my eyes. Yeah, sure, calling someone a "breeder" might not have the same oppression behind it as the f-word does, but it is still meant to hurt someone and other them by reducing them to an aspect of their identity. (Not to mention that it's just erasing the fact that for example a bi person can be in a 'straight' relationship.)

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I think a lot of confusion also comes from the fact that in SJ context misogyny and such talks about oppression on an institutionalized level while dictionary definitions and how most people know it it just means hatred? Like, a person can be very hateful against say straight people, but that doesn't make institutionalized oppression of straight people (heterophobia) a thing?

Also, I wouldn't call your previous comments about this place whining. :<

Okay, that came out a lot more disjointed cause I kept adding stuff. tl dr; people were being asses.

[Mono Vertigo]

@Astrella:

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Yeah, my suggestion was mostly made so that they would avoid, once and for all, the monthly to bi-monthly flamewars started by anyone who dares mention dictionary definitions, or misandry, or why is it okay to insult a privileged group for a characteristic they have as much control over as the minority does. I mean, it's their comm, and I don't agree with all their unspoken rules, but they have a right to determine these rules, and it would greatly benefit them to point out what's allowed, what's not, and what flat-out doesn't exist in their eyes. This way, they can actually reply "please reread the rules again" (they always do that but it's not like it ever helped) without having to expect the others to read their mind.
It's not even advertised anywhere that the comm is LGBT-friendly or big on SJ. It's about roleplay rants and advice, and the rules look like what you'd find anywhere else. They're doing everybody a disservice here, and I don't think they realize that.

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Or maybe some of them like the confrontation, knowing they won't lose, having the mods on their side. Then again, there's always at least one person who does that in every large gathering, no exception as long as people are involved.

Beside that, yeah, I agree with that. Insulting me for being white is not as serious as insulting someone else for being non-white, I'm okay with that; I just see the two as occurrences of racism (that don't have the same magnitude or degree of institutionalization, of course, but still racism). When there is no provocation from the privileged side, there should be no global acceptance of any verbal aggression. Hey, even just a "yeah, we'd appreciate it if you could stay polite" or "if you need to call out X on something, try to focus on something they have an actual influence on" would please me.
But again, their private comm, their rules, no matter how ambiguously worded or controversial they are. If they feel safer this way, great for them; I don't, I have other places for that. Like this one. It's cool. You all are cool.

Thanks for your reply. I'm big on self-questioning and improvement, but it's often difficult to gauge how I'm doing.

[Kindablue]

/smack

It's the best I could come up with on the spur of the moment but no, it is equally capable of transitioning women to men.

The Tiresias Machine? A round robin could be fun, like Gunnar suggested. I definitely don't have time to write anything long.

[Taffimai]

Using slurs against anyone because of a group they belong to is totally NOT okay in my eyes. Yeah, sure, calling someone a "breeder" might not have the same oppression behind it as the f-word does, but it is still meant to hurt someone and other them by reducing them to an aspect of their identity. (Not to mention that it's just erasing the fact that for example a bi person can be in a 'straight' relationship.)

Not to mention that it provides ammunition for the crowd that wants to keep denying same-sex couples the right to adopt. Frequent or high-profile anti-straight comments undermine the idea that yes, a gay couple can provide a loving, supportive environment for a child, even when the child is not gay itself.

[Asta Kask]

Can this machine change someone back and forth? Can Helio check in once a month? And how does it make people sterile? Because we can do some pretty amazing things already.

Edit: Taffimai, no only adopt. What about all lesbian couples who have kids? Are they traitors to the LGBTA cause now?

[Lycunadari]

Hello, all.

I'm the queer part of the alphabet soup. Even though I've known I have a nonstandard gender for a number of years now, I'm not real sure how to go about processing it.

Despite being an active internet-goer, I'm not really a part of any of the 'net support groups. I find it hard to get comfortable in them. It seems like people either push for you to identify (which I'm not keen on), or they're so sure in themselves that coming in as someone who's still working it all out is daunting.

So, I figured I'd come here, since I'm already comfortable on GitP. Um, yeah. Hi.

Here, have late *welcome hugs* from me.

The LGBTAP NaNoWriMo Challenge!

*snip*

Hey, that sounds like fun. I already have an idea for a story. Now I just have to finish that stupid term paper I'm writing. Then I'm allowed to write something else again.

ION: I did some experiment with clothing, because I hoped that it would help me to get some clarity about my gender (I think I might be slightly gender fluid. Far weaker than Helio, just swinging between 'completly female', 'not so female' and 'agendered/androgyne'.). It didn't, but is was fun. I started with as female as possible, wearing my evening dress, then normal, feminine clothing, then (hopefully) androgynous clothing, and ended with clothes that belong to my brother/father. There are pictures in the You!-thread.
I now think about asking my brother if I can wear them more often, so I can find out if I feel comfortable in them.

[Lix Lorn]

One small catch is that using the machine will render you infertile, so unfortunately people that use the device will never be able to have children.

What's even the point?
Why have a random wish fulfilling wonder technology if everything is still screwed over?

[Heliomance]

I assume that restriction's in there (from a literary point of view) to stop random cis people from having a spin to try it out for a day. Even still, would you not rather have a female body even if it did come at the price of infertility?

I'm honestly not sure if I'd use it. I probably would, but the infertility side effect would give me serious pause, even with the option of freezing beforehand.

[Nix Nihila]

What's even the point?
Why have a random wish fulfilling wonder technology if everything is still screwed over?

Because everything isn't screwed over. Not everybody wants children. Assuming that this machine gives trans people something closer their ideal bodies (the use of the word gender slightly confuses me here), I would definitely consider it (I might have reservations unrelated to the infertility aspect of the machine).

But anyways, I think the emphasis on the bodies and physical appearance of trans people is rather harmful. Especially for those people who don't identify as male or female (or who identify as both).

[Lix Lorn]

I assume that restriction's in there (from a literary point of view) to stop random cis people from having a spin to try it out for a day. Even still, would you not rather have a female body even if it did come at the price of infertility?

I'm honestly not sure if I'd use it. I probably would, but the infertility side effect would give me serious pause, even with the option of freezing beforehand.

But then all it is is slightly faster than real. It would be better, yes, but... it annoys me a lot that even in a fantasy, things still don't go completely well.

Because everything isn't screwed over. Not everybody wants children.

I do. I was referring to for myself.

[Astrella]

Because everything isn't screwed over. Not everybody wants children. Assuming that this machine gives trans people something closer their ideal bodies (the use of the word gender slightly confuses me here), I would definitely consider it (I might have reservations unrelated to the infertility aspect of the machine).

But anyways, I think the emphasis on the bodies and physical appearance of trans people is rather harmful. Especially for those people who don't identify as male or female (or who identify as both).

Yar. I think it sorta comes for a ciscentric view of trans people? Like, people want to understand it but the mental side of it is a lot harder to grasp so they reach for something more 'obvious', namely physical stuff?

I do agree with you though on that it is a pretty harmful thing.

Also, hi Nix! How've you been?

[Nix Nihila]

I do. I was referring to for myself.

Ah, alright. The way you phrased it gave me the impression that you were making a blanket statement.

Yar. I think it sorta comes for a ciscentric view of trans people? Like, people want to understand it but the mental side of it is a lot harder to grasp so they reach for something more 'obvious', namely physical stuff?

I do agree with you though on that it is a pretty harmful thing.

Also, hi Nix! How've you been?

It's still a viewpoint which is somewhat ingrained in my mind as well, which I think is a part of why coming to terms with being trans was difficult for me.

And I'm very well, thanks! How are you?

[Selpharia]

What's even the point?
Why have a random wish fulfilling wonder technology if everything is still screwed over?

I'd take it in a heartbeat. Not being able to have children is a significant cost, but I don't attach much weight to any hypothetical children being biologically mine, so adoption would be fine, if I even decided I wanted to have children. Also, pure, costless wish fulfillment doesn't make for much drama or a very interesting story, as much as it appeals to the wisher.

~Laura

[The Succubus]

I didn't mean for this idea to upset anyone.

I'll open this one up to a vote - if I removed the fertility restriction, would it encourage more people to have a try at writing something? What Helio mentioned about "cis people taking their opposite gender for a spin for a day" could open up some rather intriguing possibilities, story wise.

[Absol197]

I'd take it in a heartbeat. Not being able to have children is a significant cost, but I don't attach much weight to any hypothetical children being biologically mine, so adoption would be fine, if I even decided I wanted to have children. Also, pure, costless wish fulfillment doesn't make for much drama or a very interesting story, as much as it appeals to the wisher

Wish-fulfillment itself, no. The social ramifications of the wish being fulfilled, however...That's where the drama lies!

[Asta Kask]

What's even the point?
Why have a random wish fulfilling wonder technology if everything is still screwed over?

Because without conflict you don't have a story.

[Lix Lorn]

Ah, alright. The way you phrased it gave me the impression that you were making a blanket statement.

Sorry.

I'd take it in a heartbeat. Not being able to have children is a significant cost, but I don't attach much weight to any hypothetical children being biologically mine, so adoption would be fine, if I even decided I wanted to have children. Also, pure, costless wish fulfillment doesn't make for much drama or a very interesting story, as much as it appeals to the wisher.

~Laura

I would give pretty much anything to be able to be a mother. My self-insert persona character has about thirty, and I could probably name them from memory. It really, really upsets me when people discount it, I have several female friends who are like 'eww no kids no'. And it upsets me that even in a fantasy where Science has done massively good things for transpeople, I still couldn't do it.

I'd much rather science worked on a better transition than one that only takes thirty minutes.
Sorry if I seemed angry or annoyed at anyone in particular. The idea just hit some very, very sore spots for me.

I didn't mean for this idea to upset anyone.

I'll open this one up to a vote - if I removed the fertility restriction, would it encourage more people to have a try at writing something? What Helio mentioned about "cis people taking their opposite gender for a spin for a day" could open up some rather intriguing possibilities, story wise.

Don't change it on my account. I'm very unlikely to write one anyway.

[Selpharia]

Wish-fulfillment itself, no. The social ramifications of the wish being fulfilled, however...That's where the drama lies!

Yes, but the mere presence of the machine would have to change the social reaction somewhat. There's no physical discrepancies between trans and cis men/women to get hung up on, and no transitional phase. Everything fits in the nice little cis boxes that society expects. Although yes, there will still be ramifications, they would in many ways less than what trans people go through now, I think

[Asta Kask]

Well, there's still genderqueer. And I think there would still be plenty of 'ick' factor for trans people to overcome. Prejudices aren't logical.

[Astrella]

It's not even helpful for all trans* people transition wise even if you don't look at fertility. What about a trans woman who wants to keep her penis for example? Or would the machine make the changes the person wants / needs to be comfortable with themselves?

(Edit; I'm not throwing any blame at you, Succubus, just to make sure.)

It's still a viewpoint which is somewhat ingrained in my mind as well, which I think is a part of why coming to terms with being trans was difficult for me.

And I'm very well, thanks! How are you?

Yeah...

Glad to hear you are well! I'm pretty okay myself. Managed to work up the courage to come out at my dorm (which went pretty well). For the rest just keeping myself busy with various things.

[noparlpf]

Infertility is easily taken care of the way we do now - bank reproductive material beforehand.

Not even. We can just make viable gametes from a sample of skin tissue. Though it might be preferable to save a sample from beforehand in case, for example, an originally male-bodied person wanted to produce Y-chromosome gametes after transition.

Hey guys!
Very minor personal problem here, but I'd appreciate your input.

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Remember the community I mentioned in my least interesting rants? The one that started out completely SJ-unrelated but that has been since overrun by aggressive SJ people? Well, I'm finally leaving it! Good news for you, no more whining from me! (Yes, it's that comm where one can claim demisexuals are heterosexuals trying to look special and NOT fear any reprimand from mods, and you must be THAT oppressed to give your opinion. I'm pretty sure they don't like allies either.)
Someone mentioned in a post what kind of language wasn't tolerated (aka ableism, racism, religious, gender-based or sexuality-based slurs; no more precision than brief mention of misogyny) in response to a complaint. I myself raised an objection that I thought was formulated in such a way I thought nobody could deduce I was racist/misogynist/etc. Well, I received answers that oscillate between nasty snark and mistrustful side-eyeing, and that was the last straw.
Still, I need to know if I did say something bad without noticing it. You know better than I do if I'm implying offensive stuff without meaning it. I would greatly appreciate your advice.
Here is my post in question:

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"Now, I have an objection to make:
the rules do not state that slurs directed toward certain populations are accepted. I've certainly seen misandrist and anti-white slurs being thrown about with no bad repercussion for those who typed them, often with the defense that there is no such thing as misandry or anti-white racism.
I think that should be clarified that gender-based slurs are okay if they are against cismen, and racial slurs okay if they are against whites. The way things are formulated right now, it sounds like you can't insult someone at all for having a gender or a race they had never chosen to have and can't change."

And some of the answers I got, paraphrased:

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- Are you for real? You're hilarious!
- Oh you're right, that should soo be fixed... just kidding, there's no such thing as anti-white racism. I can't believe there are people who would seriously be thinking that.
- [words that are censored by this forum's filter] aren't slurs, just language I wouldn't use everywhere.
- And what would be those mythical "misandrist slurs" you're speaking of?

I'm sorry you had to put up with that crap as long as you did. I would have left in a minute.

[Selpharia]

Sorry.


I would give pretty much anything to be able to be a mother. My self-insert persona character has about thirty, and I could probably name them from memory. It really, really upsets me when people discount it, I have several female friends who are like 'eww no kids no'. And it upsets me that even in a fantasy where Science has done massively good things for transpeople, I still couldn't do it.

I'd much rather science worked on a better transition than one that only takes thirty minutes.
Sorry if I seemed angry or annoyed at anyone in particular. The idea just hit some very, very sore spots for me.


Don't change it on my account. I'm very unlikely to write one anyway.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I am discounting motherhood. For me, motherhood conjures up a constant fear of never being good enough, of being so terribly responsible for an absolutely helpless other life, and then for the development of another human being that I have no idea how people manage it without going mad from worry. I do kind of want it, but I feel like the worst thing I could do to a hypothetical child would be to inflict myself upon it as a mother, with all of my fears and insecurities and faults.

@Astrelia- I keep forgetting the vastness of the spectrum. Thanks for pointing that out

~Laura

[Rawhide]

Re: The Succubus' idea.

If we assume for a moment that the machine can only change a completely male body to a completely female body and vice versa (first generation of the machine which is still being improved, but can't yet handle intersexed people or partial transformations), there are still a few issues that arise.

What happens if a pregnant woman changes her sex to male with the machine?

Would the infertility be only for the sex you've changed into with the machine, or would you be infertile if you switched back?

How frequently could you use the machine?

Are there any side-effects?

If you remove the infertility side-effect, could you get yourself pregnant?

[Lix Lorn]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I am discounting motherhood. For me, motherhood conjures up a constant fear of never being good enough, of being so terribly responsible for an absolutely helpless other life, and then for the development of another human being that I have no idea how people manage it without going mad from worry. I do kind of want it, but I feel like the worst thing I could do to a hypothetical child would be to inflict myself upon it as a mother, with all of my fears and insecurities and faults.

@Astrelia- I keep forgetting the vastness of the spectrum. Thanks for pointing that out

~Laura

(hugs, if you'd like them)
It's okay. I don't mind people not wanting it, it just annoys me when people act like it's nothing and dismiss it without giving a reason.

...it also annoys me if I'm already in a bad mood cause I'm bad like that. ^_^''

[golentan]

(hugs, if you'd like them)
It's okay. I don't mind people not wanting it, it just annoys me when people act like it's nothing and dismiss it without giving a reason.

...it also annoys me if I'm already in a bad mood cause I'm bad like that. ^_^''

I sometimes feel the same way about parenthood. I sometimes feel like I'm talking at right angles to people when being a father comes up. I'd love to be a parent. There is no way I'm going my whole life without having kids. And at the same time, if I could have my tubes clipped tomorrow I'd do it. People give me grief that I don't want the kid to be mine biologically, and then suggest that I don't really want to be a parent or I'd do it the old fashioned way. And yeah, I'd like them to be mine biologically if I saw an ethical way to do it, but having my concerns dismissed or mocked just hurts on a topic that's so important to me.

[Astrella]

Re: The Succubus' idea.

If we assume for a moment that the machine can only change a completely male body to a completely female body and vice versa (first generation of the machine which is still being improved, but can't yet handle intersexed people or partial transformations), there are still a few issues that arise.

What happens if a pregnant woman changes her sex to male with the machine?

Would the infertility be only for the sex you've changed into with the machine, or would you be infertile if you switched back?

How frequently could you use the machine?

Are there any side-effects?

If you remove the infertility side-effect, could you get yourself pregnant?

I don't really like the notion of "fully male / fully female" bodies because just creates a whole bunch of harmful divisions imo; but yeah, there's a lot of variables to consider.

[Rawhide]

I don't really like the notion of "fully male / fully female" bodies because just creates a whole bunch of harmful divisions imo; but yeah, there's a lot of variables to consider.

I'm talking, no genetic anomalies that can get in the way. Anyone having such of an anomaly, is no less of a man or woman, but this hypothetical first generation machine couldn't handle it, nor could it change you to something outside of the same threshold. There's no division, just that the machine can't handle what it doesn't expect (can't have body parts from both sexes, can't be intersexed, and so on).