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  1. - Top - End - #1261
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Asta Kask's Avatar

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    "Typical cis-bodied male/female"?
    Avatar by CoffeeIncluded

    Oooh, and that's a bad miss.

    “Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
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  2. - Top - End - #1262
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    smile Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Depending on how it does it, that could actually lead to some interesting story concepts as well. If, for example, it was based in switching a chromosome and calculating the physical development that would have resulted from that, it could cause someone to discover that they had a dormant trait they did not know of (Androgen Insensitivity among others.)

    Which would both be interesting from an author perspective and terrible for the characters who are thus prevented from actually achieving the change they searched. ._.

    Alternatively, if it was based in hormones, it could explore the problems of the "sex is defined by Chromosomes" argument has when faced with a technology that can make everything as if the Chromosomes were different. Not that the argument makes sense, but it would be interesting to put it against a counter-example that severely harms the basis of it. :3

    I personally vote that the details of how it works is left to the individual writer/group, though. Some could write stories about what effect a binary-only technology means, some about what the change itself means and others about entirely different themes! ^_^

    PS: I am not trained to spot errors in assessments of science-fiction science. In case some of the above makes no scientific sense, feel free to correct and/or curse me. ^_^'
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post

    At first, it was the smiley faces and the mannerisms. Then, it was the infernal magpie. It struck a chord. A cutely fiendish, macabre chord.

    An then I saw Keveak in the sorting hat and you are just the cutest thing when you want to be. My gosh look at that. It's squee-inducing.

  3. - Top - End - #1263
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    A few more good points here, although it has thrown up a rather large amount of gaps in my understanding of transitioning and whatnot. >.>''

    The simple fact is I have no idea how the Machine would cope with partial transitioning and pregnancy. It's down to the author I guess and as I mentioned, the actual way it does the transition is completely up to you. Perhaps a woman enters the machine to transition to a man and during the process she discovers that she is pregnant and mentally touches the child growing within her and the process is stopped? Or as Rawhide suggested, perhaps the Machine has a hiccup and a man transitioning to a woman becomes pregnant "somehow" and the story revolves around where the child has come from?

    I'll leave it open for a week - NaNoBlahBlah doesn't start until November anyway, so next weekend you can make the call on whether to leave or remove the fertility bit.

  4. - Top - End - #1264
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    I don't really like the notion of "fully male / fully female" bodies because just creates a whole bunch of harmful divisions imo; but yeah, there's a lot of variables to consider.
    There's a fair bit that could be argued such that what you're railing against is more due to people's pigheadedness than the idea of male and female without intersex qualities or conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    /smack
    Hey, that's my line.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    It's the best I could come up with on the spur of the moment but no, it is equally capable of transitioning women to men.
    I know that. I'm just pointing out that it's a ready problem for any stories. Just what happened to those executives and how did it get stuck with that name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Hey guys!
    Very minor personal problem here, but I'd appreciate your input.
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    Remember the community I mentioned in my least interesting rants? The one that started out completely SJ-unrelated but that has been since overrun by aggressive SJ people? Well, I'm finally leaving it! Good news for you, no more whining from me! (Yes, it's that comm where one can claim demisexuals are heterosexuals trying to look special and NOT fear any reprimand from mods, and you must be THAT oppressed to give your opinion. I'm pretty sure they don't like allies either.)
    Someone mentioned in a post what kind of language wasn't tolerated (aka ableism, racism, religious, gender-based or sexuality-based slurs; no more precision than brief mention of misogyny) in response to a complaint. I myself raised an objection that I thought was formulated in such a way I thought nobody could deduce I was racist/misogynist/etc. Well, I received answers that oscillate between nasty snark and mistrustful side-eyeing, and that was the last straw.
    Still, I need to know if I did say something bad without noticing it. You know better than I do if I'm implying offensive stuff without meaning it. I would greatly appreciate your advice.
    Here is my post in question:
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    "Now, I have an objection to make:
    the rules do not state that slurs directed toward certain populations are accepted. I've certainly seen misandrist and anti-white slurs being thrown about with no bad repercussion for those who typed them, often with the defense that there is no such thing as misandry or anti-white racism.
    I think that should be clarified that gender-based slurs are okay if they are against cismen, and racial slurs okay if they are against whites. The way things are formulated right now, it sounds like you can't insult someone at all for having a gender or a race they had never chosen to have and can't change."

    And some of the answers I got, paraphrased:
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    - Are you for real? You're hilarious!
    - Oh you're right, that should soo be fixed... just kidding, there's no such thing as anti-white racism. I can't believe there are people who would seriously be thinking that.
    - [words that are censored by this forum's filter] aren't slurs, just language I wouldn't use everywhere.
    - And what would be those mythical "misandrist slurs" you're speaking of?

    Some people have their heads shoved up their own behinds. Some people are trolls. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference and then you find out they're one and the same.

    It's not because of some flaw unique to homophobes that they're hateful cusses, no, that flaw is common to all humans, even those who pay lip-service to enlightened ideals.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-21 at 02:56 PM.
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    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  5. - Top - End - #1265
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    A few more good points here, although it has thrown up a rather large amount of gaps in my understanding of transitioning and whatnot. >.>''

    The simple fact is I have no idea how the Machine would cope with partial transitioning and pregnancy. It's down to the author I guess and as I mentioned, the actual way it does the transition is completely up to you. Perhaps a woman enters the machine to transition to a man and during the process she discovers that she is pregnant and mentally touches the child growing within her and the process is stopped? Or as Rawhide suggested, perhaps the Machine has a hiccup and a man transitioning to a woman becomes pregnant "somehow" and the story revolves around where the child has come from?

    I'll leave it open for a week - NaNoBlahBlah doesn't start until November anyway, so next weekend you can make the call on whether to leave or remove the fertility bit.
    What you do is you install a number of buttons on the machine - "Boobs", "External genitals", "Adam's Apple change", "Uterus", "Gonads", etc. Anyone who wants a non-cis collection of features simply presses the correct button(s).

    Also:

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    Avatar by CoffeeIncluded

    Oooh, and that's a bad miss.

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  6. - Top - End - #1266
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    What you do is you install a number of buttons on the machine - "Boobs", "External genitals", "Adam's Apple change", "Uterus", "Gonads", etc. Anyone who wants a non-cis collection of features simply presses the correct button(s).

    Also:

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    *pokes the boobs button*

    *pokepokepokepokepokepoke*

    *falls flat on face because of being top heavy*
    "I'm just going on motive and opportunity here and the fact that if the earth got swallowed by a black hole, I'd look suspiciously in your direction first."
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  7. - Top - End - #1267
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Castaras View Post
    *pokes the boobs button*

    *pokepokepokepokepokepoke*

    *falls flat on face because of being top heavy*
    The only thing more dangerous than a Cassie playing with fire is a Cassie playing the human genome sequence.

  8. - Top - End - #1268
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    The only thing more dangerous than a Cassie playing with fire is a Cassie playing the human genome sequence.
    Or nukes.
    ...
    (kidnaps top-heavy cassie)
    Mwahaha <3
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    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  9. - Top - End - #1269
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    World's largest natural breasts: 102ZZZ

    Not sexy.
    Avatar by CoffeeIncluded

    Oooh, and that's a bad miss.

    “Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
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  10. - Top - End - #1270
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Castaras View Post
    *pokes the boobs button*

    *pokepokepokepokepokepoke*

    *falls flat on face because of being top heavy*
    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Or nukes.
    ...
    (kidnaps top-heavy cassie)
    Mwahaha <3
    Well, that escalated quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    What you do is you install a number of buttons on the machine - "Boobs", "External genitals", "Adam's Apple change", "Uterus", "Gonads", etc. Anyone who wants a non-cis collection of features simply presses the correct button(s).
    Buttons? Why, sir, in this Computamagorical, Informatographical Day And Age, we have procedurally generated algorithms for that sort of thing!

    Also, link no work. Also, also, gonads would need to open up a sub-menu somehow or instead be split into two options, since all gonads means is gamete-producing, which covers male and female gametes.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-21 at 03:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
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  11. - Top - End - #1271
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    It works for me. Also cassie, due to a minor malfunction pressing the boobs button several times actually give you several sets of boobs. Sorry about that.
    Avatar by CoffeeIncluded

    Oooh, and that's a bad miss.

    “Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
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  12. - Top - End - #1272
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    It works for me. Also cassie, due to a minor malfunction pressing the boobs button several times actually give you several sets of boobs. Sorry about that.
    Do they just pop up at random on the body?
    Jude P.

  13. - Top - End - #1273
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    It works for me. Also cassie, due to a minor malfunction pressing the boobs button several times actually give you several sets of boobs. Sorry about that.
    Do they just pop up at random on the body?
    I suppose that gives sudden and horrifyingly new meaning to the term "boomer."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    The simple fact is I have no idea how the Machine would cope with partial transitioning and pregnancy.
    No idea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    It's down to the author I guess and as I mentioned, the actual way it does the transition is completely up to you.
    I suppose that would open up quite the ghoulish chain of possibilities...

    Where does this handy contraption get all that lovely biomass? And where does it spirit what it takes away, still writhing with vitae?


    Oh, the things that man was not meant to know...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    Perhaps a woman enters the machine to transition to a man and during the process she discovers that she is pregnant and mentally touches the child growing within her and the process is stopped? Or as Rawhide suggested, perhaps the Machine has a hiccup and a man transitioning to a woman becomes pregnant "somehow" and the story revolves around where the child has come from?
    Mmm, dat lack of bioethics. Maybe it's the Echo Bazaar I've been playing talking, but I'm seeing all manner of... possibilities both gothical and most macabre.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    It works for me. Also cassie, due to a minor malfunction pressing the boobs button several times actually give you several sets of boobs. Sorry about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    It works for me.
    It works for you because it is in your cache. It won't work for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    Or as Rawhide suggested, perhaps the Machine has a hiccup and a man transitioning to a woman becomes pregnant "somehow" and the story revolves around where the child has come from?
    I was more thinking of artificially inseminating yourself.

    "My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak

  16. - Top - End - #1276
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    *sigh* and there's apparently more drama in the LGBT society at uni.

    And of course, the usual people going on about cis-straight people not being welcome to have opinions.

    Glad I decided when I got to uni not to join the soc... didn't seem welcoming to anyone wanting to find out more about people and how they work; and talking to and reading what friends have to say about it, seems the drama never ends.

    Depressing, really.
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  17. - Top - End - #1277
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    ^: A pity, that. :/ I have to wonder how much of the drama ultimately derives from members' romantic aspirations viz. their fellows, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I was more thinking of artificially inseminating yourself.
    Well, it's no "All You Zombies," but I can dig it.
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    Ghoulishly shunting a fetal human in stasis from one body to another is rather sensationalist, after all.

    Though something ghoulish would provide a bit of backstory in how the pump was primed...
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-21 at 04:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
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  18. - Top - End - #1278
    Miniature Giant Space Hamster in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Well, it's no "All You Zombies," but I can dig it.
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    Ghoulishly shunting a fetal human in stasis from one body to another is rather sensationalist, after all.

    Though something ghoulish would provide a bit of backstory in how the pump was primed...
    Uhh, wha?

    Google turkey baster.

    "My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak

  19. - Top - End - #1279
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    The LGBTAP NaNoWriMo Challenge!


    Hey folks!

    I had a rather cool idea on the train home this morning. As some of you may know, November is National Novel Writing Month and I had a really spiffy idea for us all. The normal format of NaNoWriMo is a 50,000 word story written over the course of the month but I'd like to tweak the idea slightly for us.

    The challenge, should you choose to accept it is write a story based on this premise:

    Science has finally achieved a lifelong dream of many folks in this thread and created the Aphrodite Machine. This wondrous device basically turns someone into the opposite gender in the space of about 30 minutes. The figure that steps out of the machine is still recognisable as the person that went in but a flawlessly transitioned version. So for example, a man with red hair and grey eyes steps in and a woman with red hair and grey eyes steps out. One small catch is that using the machine will render you infertile, so unfortunately people that use the device will never be able to have children.

    So your story could be from the perspective of the person creating the device, it could be someone using it for the first time or a friend that has a relative/friend using it - pretty much anything you like, provided you stick to the core concept. If you've ever read the short story collection "Machine of Death", this is the LGBTA version of it.

    Naturally, we're not looking for a 50,000 word behemoth from each of you - this ideally would be a collection of short stories - maybe 10k words or so.


    Any takers?
    I'll bite. This sounds like a really cool concept. I think I'd probably go with bicurious cismale and heterosexual transwoman. Or maybe mostly gay cismale and homosexual transman so I can actually write the mushy parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I assume that restriction's in there (from a literary point of view) to stop random cis people from having a spin to try it out for a day. Even still, would you not rather have a female body even if it did come at the price of infertility?

    I'm honestly not sure if I'd use it. I probably would, but the infertility side effect would give me serious pause, even with the option of freezing beforehand.
    Tiresias is a little cheater!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    I didn't mean for this idea to upset anyone.

    I'll open this one up to a vote - if I removed the fertility restriction, would it encourage more people to have a try at writing something? What Helio mentioned about "cis people taking their opposite gender for a spin for a day" could open up some rather intriguing possibilities, story wise.
    I'd say that it would work like everything was right on a macro level, but on the cell level, the gametes simply don't work how they are supposed to, this glitch can be fixed in some stories and not in others.

    Also, important to my style of writing, but is there going to be a preface that explains the Aphrodite machine? Because if there is, I don't want to burn 200-400 or so words on explaining it. Then I can just use a 50-150 word part expressing the appropriate relevance.
    And so doth the winds of destiny change my course for better or worse for the whole of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arachu View Post
    You're fun to talk to. ^_^
    Quote Originally Posted by goletan
    Maturity is a word boring people use to describe themselves. And crazy is the word they use for fun people.

    Besides, the dirty old guy is a staple of fiction everywhere.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Uhh, wha?

    Google turkey baster.
    All You Zombies, the Robert Heinlein shortstory.

    That's a bit crude, I'm sure something more inventive could be arranged.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-21 at 05:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I've heard worse.
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    Like the one where women getting cranky because of PMS or their period is because they're too repressed/X to be honest with themselves about their sexual desires and/or can't deal with their biological processes that are going on and fulfilling said desires.
    ... It would be good if that was true. Then we could just fix it! Also, some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    So, good news and bad news.


    Bad news. Despite my dad sounding like he agreed not to tell anybody else, he outed me to my mom.

    Good news. My mom took it pretty well (Could have been better, and could have been MUCH worse.), and in my opinion, my parents are the main hurdle.
    Well, it sucks that he did that, but on the bright side, the worst is over! Also, now you know to be clear about who gets to know when you tell him things...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    The LGBTAP NaNoWriMo Challenge!
    Interesting idea! I doubt I'll get time to write, but maybe I'll draw a picture, and I'd certainly love to read other people's stories!

    Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me

  22. - Top - End - #1282
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Beside that, yeah, I agree with that. Insulting me for being white is not as serious as insulting someone else for being non-white, I'm okay with that;


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    Color me incredulous, but I find the notion of prejudice being okay so long as its against a power group irrational. And upsetting. This is my knee.





    It took it five years to stop turning purple in the winter. It took me four months to stop walking with a limp. The idea that this is a lesser infraction because I'm white and was chased down the street with sticks and rocks by hispanics, than if the ethnicities were reversed, is disturbing. There is no way to say you're going to pick which branch of sexism or racism or homophobia or whatever to fight an which are okay for now without sounding hypocritical.

    Racism isn't slurs and words. it's being chased by teenagers because you took a bath this morning and now you don't look Latino. I skid a good four or five feet on my right knee, bloody and crying and they still chased me. If it weren't for a Latino family taking me in, scaring off the gang and their eldest son walking me home, I woul probably be just as damn racist.

    Racism is hate. Not annoyance, or words. It's actions. It's belittling someone until they break. It's only hiring a black worker to do menial labor. It's liking the white kid out of a grocery store because the black guy ranting about the white devil polluting the sanctity of the establishment was a regular customer, and none of the employees were Caucasian so no harm no foul right? It's two friends, one spontaneously beating the other while his family cheers because they heard the break-in down the street was perpetrated by white people, so the white kid deserved it, even if he was at their son's birthday party two weeks ago.

    "it's less of a problem" is a dismissal. It's the same as "it's not really a problem". And something not being real prejudice because it happens to a group you're less invested in protecting is a No True Scotsman fallacy. I'm white. People think I'm male. So there are some issues I haven't had to worry about. Like being denied employ at an overnight shift because of my fairer sex. but I have had keep my distance for hours, hoping, praying an adult would walk by I could scream at because I lived in a latino neighborhood and my clothes were too nice for a gringo to have, and some kids on bikes circled the tree I climbed.

    In no way is any kind of prejudice at that level okay. And no, this isn't a blank check for people to cry prejudice and get off the hook. But if one cannot practice discernment over the degree of slight, that is one's business to tend to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nix Nihila View Post
    Because everything isn't screwed over. Not everybody wants children. Assuming that this machine gives trans people something closer their ideal bodies (the use of the word gender slightly confuses me here), I would definitely consider it (I might have reservations unrelated to the infertility aspect of the machine).

    But anyways, I think the emphasis on the bodies and physical appearance of trans people is rather harmful. Especially for those people who don't identify as male or female (or who identify as both).
    It is a device designed by cismen, most likely. Isn't that the default for science fiction? Straight, white, 40s or 50s, dour?

    I like the idea that a trans woman could just get a uterus transplant and be able to give birth through the proper canal. I dot know that I would; I am okay with spawning organically with the equipment I have, so infertility would be no big loss. It would be nice, but.

    Oh! Non working gonads means just that, so it's possible for Lix to store up genetic data, find a willing lass, and go through insemination. Then she still gets pregnancy, birthing, and her own genetics.

    I also find it interesting that trans women who want to keep their penis came up. If the machine creates a version closer to ideal, then transforming from male
    Body to female body to make body would produce a decidedly more feminine male body. You gain your ideal form (female) but the machine expressly avoids losing any of the ideal, except where it runs counter to the sex alteration.
    This means a ladyboy woul change only in that she would go from an outie to an innie and back. Breasts aren't really female sex traits solely, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selpharia View Post
    I'd take it in a heartbeat. Not being able to have children is a significant cost, but I don't attach much weight to any hypothetical children being biologically mine, so adoption would be fine, if I even decided I wanted to have children. Also, pure, costless wish fulfillment doesn't make for much drama or a very interesting story, as much as it appeals to the wisher.

    ~Laura
    Aye, ditto. Thinking about procreating with men with a working uterus kinda makes me panic. Which is odd since I currently have less stigma with doing so. So I don't think fertility would be anything but a waste on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    I
    I'll open this one up to a vote - if I removed the fertility restriction, would it encourage more people to have a try at writing something? What Helio mentioned about "cis people taking their opposite gender for a spin for a day" could open up some rather intriguing possibilities, story wise.
    I think it would actually lead to transgender blindness. In the same way bisexuals are heterosexuals who are trying to be exotic, and demisexuals are heterosexuals who feel like special snowflakes, a transsexual would just be tat guy up doesn't take off his costume for a few days after a costume party. "Okay, Dave, seriously. I know your comfortable but we need you to wear your man-body at work. That's how you're licensed an the company wot pay another fine of we are audited. They are going to let you go."

    Of course, I've never read a positive science fiction book in my life. So it's possible it would be a utopia but I don't see that as a novel, so much as a mental exercise or wish-fulfillment fanfic.

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I sometimes feel the same way about parenthood. I sometimes feel like I'm talking at right angles to people when being a father comes up. I'd love to be a parent. There is no way I'm going my whole life without having kids. And at the same time, if I could have my tubes clipped tomorrow I'd do it. People give me grief that I don't want the kid to be mine biologically, and then suggest that I don't really want to be a parent or I'd do it the old fashioned way. And yeah, I'd like them to be mine biologically if I saw an ethical way to do it, but having my concerns dismissed or mocked just hurts on a topic that's so important to me.
    *hugs!*
    I'm sorry. Some people are just really bad at seeing things outside their perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I'm talking, no genetic anomalies that can get in the way. Anyone having such of an anomaly, is no less of a man or woman, but this hypothetical first generation machine couldn't handle it, nor could it change you to something outside of the same threshold. There's no division, just that the machine can't handle what it doesn't expect (can't have body parts from both sexes, can't be intersexed, and so on).
    pregnancy would probably lead to termination, unfortunately.

    Which means the machine is more fun if the infertility clause is a misnomer; some people come out fertile, but since they are now homosexual (not changing preferred partners) no one noticed. Women get screened before use to make sure nothing untoward happens, and eventually people catch on, but not before the protagonist finds out his weekend trip as a woman is goin to last a full year, he's pregnant (it's a girl!) and his work and family didn't know; he's here user a fake name because he put it on the corporate account as a business expense.

    ... Sounds like a plot for a Mage game. Heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Of course, I've never read a positive science fiction book in my life. So it's possible it would be a utopia but I don't see that as a novel, so much as a mental exercise or wish-fulfillment fanfic.
    Poul Anderson wrote one once. It still ends with two old people strangling each other to death, but the rest is pretty cheery.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    All You Zombies, the Robert Heinlein shortstory.

    That's a bit crude, I'm sure something more inventive could be arranged.
    It has absolutely nothing to do with anything like that at all. My point is that there is absolutely nothing ghoulish about it, no stasis, no transportation. I have no idea where any of that came from.

    It is pure, plain and simple, taking the semen from yourself, swapping sexes, then conceiving. Something that quite commonly done today but with two people.

    The question is, what would the offspring be like and what issues would there be with such a pregnancy?

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    It has absolutely nothing to do with anything like that at all. My point is that there is absolutely nothing ghoulish about it, no stasis, no transportation. I have no idea where any of that came from.

    It is pure, plain and simple, taking the semen from yourself, swapping sexes, then conceiving. Something that quite commonly done today but with two people.

    The question is, what would the offspring be like and what issues would there be with such a pregnancy?
    The idea of having someone go in pregnant, come out a man with no uterus or fetus, and then someone else go in to gain a uterus only to find that this one came pre-packaged with an embryonic human in it can definitely take a ghoulish turn, which is what I was referencing still, part as an aside, part as coming at you sideways. Mostly because this is what was first being talked about, then you mentioned your take and I admitted that the ghoulishness angle was a bit sensationalist and probably rather silly too.

    I know what artificial insemination and turkey basters are, and I'm still rather sure that they could come up with some better material than that if they can make a machine like that. After all, it is a bit of a messy thing.

    At a bit of a risk of recessive traits becoming exaggerated, if I recall my genetics. The child is one's self and yet... not. I can't imagine the genetic similarity providing any challenges compared to a child that only has half of one's genetic information, save from something macabre like the body thinking the developing human is part of the body and needs to be reabsorbed, but I think the uterus and placenta are already set up to preclude that anyway from what I remember from human reproduction, though it's been quite a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    @Siuis:
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    Okay, you're right actually, I'm not actually fine with being treated badly just because I am part of a majority, white or cis or whatever. Whenever it happened (only online, fortunately, so walking away and forgetting all about it was an easy option), I felt hurt, because of all the traits I have that could have been criticized, they chose one that I have no control over.
    However, I consider that much less distressing than being subjected to the same treatment because I am part of a minority. I also happen to be (ethnically) Jewish. It's rather obvious when one knows my last name (which nobody seems to even bother to spell properly anyway, safe for those few people who have an even more complicated name), and I sometimes wonder worriedly if it's something that you can see on my face, however it is that people might detect that. (That's even more silly given I don't believe, I don't practice, and I consider bacon as a major food group. I'm not flaunting it in anyone's face.) We don't have happy stories on that side of the family. I've already heard slurs that were not directed at me, but that still hurt. I'm not even mentioning the antisemitism that I feel is rising in certain places. Living in a very culturally diverse neighbourhood, the only people who ever actively threatened me were white, and half of them skinheads.

    So, I prefer to be insulted for being white than insulted for being Jewish. The two often go together, at least in the Western world, and are equally unchangeable, but the latter has a much more evident history of hate behind it, and an alarming amount of people has the aberrant idea Jewishness is a privilege by itself (see whatever conspiracy theory of your choice). At least it is proven that being white, as opposed to non-white all other things being equal, brings privilege in most case. I don't want to put "Jewish" on the list of things I identify as, but it always gets thrown on my face again whenever relevant bad news or slurs happen, like an ancestral fear. It's a part of me I still have no idea how to deal with, as it is an odd mix of race and religion, and the two don't seem to be able to be separated neatly and completely.

    Perhaps I've spent too much time in the presence of SJ fanatics, I wouldn't rule it out. What happened to you shouldn't have happened, and I absolutely did not mean to imply it was okay in any way. Sorry if I upset you.
    Well, that must mean that now I've liberated myself from toxic mindsets, I've got to spend some time figuring out by myself what's okay and what's not. It's even more difficult considering I'm the kind to question my values and knowledge constantly.
    (I still hate with passion the "die cis scum" thing. That must be a hint I'm not hopeless yet.)
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    @Siuis: I'm sorry you've had to deal with all that.

    -----

    I'm just really weary of the notion of male and female bodies and certain bodies being more male / female than others because it creates dangerous dichotomies. I've come into contact with "more trans than thou" arguments a lot more than I feel comfortable with cause of notions like that. Just a general remark, not addressing anyone in particular.

    Then again, I also see very little reason for the concept of sex to exist. On a medical level it's far too inaccurate; they'll need more detailed information anyway. On a legal level (at least in a society with marriage equality) it serves no function either.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    It has absolutely nothing to do with anything like that at all. My point is that there is absolutely nothing ghoulish about it, no stasis, no transportation. I have no idea where any of that came from.

    It is pure, plain and simple, taking the semen from yourself, swapping sexes, then conceiving. Something that quite commonly done today but with two people.

    The question is, what would the offspring be like and what issues would there be with such a pregnancy?
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    Your call if it's a goal or defect.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    Coidzor: Do you think you could try to be more clear about what you mean in the future? The way you jump around without context will/does only lead to confusion.

    For instance, taking this conversation as an example, you quoted my line about artificial insemination, then immediately launched into a discussion about ghoulish stasis procedures without so much as a segue. It would be a good idea if you tried to explain yourself and what you mean better. If you had started off with something like "Ah, I had been thinking [...]" in the spoiler, it would make it obvious that it was about something different, but related, which you had thought previously.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

    I posted a chart here a thread or two ago. Many people I've shown this to wanted another triangle and descriptions, so I've added those. I figured I'd update it here as well...

    People are expected to not identify all the way in a triangle's corner in most cases. They could be close, but it's a fluid scale that's more descriptive than the corners could ever be on their own. (Or at least, that's the goal.) Ideally, everyone should have one dot on each triangle. If you're aware of a case for which that's impossible, I'd like to know of your example, as that may influence adjusting the chart.

    Also, better terminology for my definitions or shorter ways to say precisely what I mean are certainly welcome. (As well as other bits of critique/advice/etc...)

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    Last edited by SMEE; 2012-10-26 at 04:18 PM.
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