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    Default G&G: Magic

    Previously, on Gaol's and Giants!

    Magic. Oh, don't we all love it. Don't we all know it's broken. There's a reason almost all Tier 1 classes and most Tier 2 classes have it.

    So. This is for a basic duscussion on magic. What do we want magic to be in G&G, and how do we want to achieve that?

    The general points made so far in the thread were:
    -More difficult
    -Less versatile
    -More specialized

    The point of more mystery was suggested, but that one is, well, a bit difficult to get across with rules, I think.

    Now, a few suggestions were made:
    -Points instead of spell slots. I don't like it much, but many seem to do so.
    -Longer casting times. Not longer than one round, so wizards still have something to do, but long enough that magic can still be interrupted in combat.
    -Forced specialization for wizards. Choose one: power or versatility, you don't get both.
    -Moving certain spells out of combat and making them rituals. In my opinion this should include: future-predicting and long-range divination; status-effect removal, including resurrection; long-range and planar travel; extremely large scale destructive magic such as weather control;
    -Fixing the worst spells (that comes later).


    Please note: this is a discussion for the basic magic system. Not for the classes using it, yet.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Yo guys, I've talked with Eldan for a while and decided to port a large part of his Arcane magic system to this one, abeit with a few changes and generalising the fluff. This is what I've come up with for the Focus part.

    Focus

    Focus is the most important resource for an spellcaster. It represents their mental fortitude and or devotion, and determines how many spells they can have active at the same time, either as mantras or sustained spells, or, in the case of prepared casters, memorized spells.
    Upon first becoming a spellcaster (usually by taking their first level in an casting class), a spellcaster gains an amount of focus depending on how they became a spellcaster. More focus can be gained by taking levels in spellcasting classes. More powerfull spell also cost more time to cast depending on the spell's level, as seen below.

    Casting time Spells:


    Your Highest level Spell:
    1 round (Activated on next round)
    Your Second Highest level Spell: 1 Full round action
    All others level Spells: Standard action

    Focus can exist in three states:
    Free Focus is focus that has not been currently used for anything. It represents a mental reserve pool of unused resources. Free Focus can be invested or expended to power spells and class abilities.
    Invested Focus is focus that is currently used to power abilities of some kind. Focus can be invested into certain feats or class features. Sustaining mantras or invocations, as well as preparing them, for wizards, requires an investment of focus. Invested focus can still be expended, but only in relation to the effect or feature it was invested in, and doing so ends that effect or feature.
    Expended Focus is focus that has been used up and made unavailable until it is regained. An example of Expended Focus is a casted spell, whose focus is unavaible to the caster.

    Being affected by certain conditions (see table below) or effects can reduce a spellcaster's maximum focus, as can being the target of certain spells and abilities. Focus thus lost becomes expended focus.
    If this happens, free focus is used up first. After all free focus is used up, a spellcaster starts losing invested focus. First, the spellcaster loses focus invested in sustained invocations, starting with those of the highest level (ending them), then focus invested in feats and class features, then focus invested in sustaining mantras, then focus invested in prepared spells (for prepared casters), which leads to the loss of these prepared spells from memory. The spellcaster chooses which invested focus he loses first, if there are several in one such category. Expended Focus is unaffected.

    Focus is regained by taking at least an hour of rest and half an hour of preperation time. A prepared caster can changed any remaining spells he has prepaired any point in the day by focusing and meditating for half an hour.

    {table=head]Effect|Focus reduction
    Dazzled| -1
    Fatigued| -1
    Shaken| -1
    Sickened| -1
    Has not eaten for 24 hours or more 1| -1
    Has suffered unrestored ability damage from any poison that lowers physical attributes2| -1
    Dazed| -2
    Exhausted| -2
    Frightened| -2
    Nauseated| -2
    Has not had restful sleep for 24 hours or more 3| -2
    Has suffered unrestored ability damage from any poison that lowers mental attributes2| -2
    Confused|-3
    Cowering|-3
    Disabled|-3
    Panicked|-3
    Staggered|-3
    Stunned|-3
    [/table]
    1 This does not apply to creature which need not eat to survive.
    2 Being under the effect of more than one poison does not produce additional focus loss. An arcanist under the effect of both mental and physical poisons only suffers the loss from the mental poison. Poisons which produce any effect other than ability damage either produce the normal focus loss for that condition, if it is on the list (such as a sickening poison producing a focus loss of -1) or have no effect on focus (if their effect is not on this list).
    3This does not apply to creatures which need not sleep (or trance, in the case of elves). This does not stack with the reduction from Fatigued or Exhausted.


    Motivation for the Changes

    So yeah, I made focus slightly harder to regain, forcing more strategic thinking as a caster should do in my opinion. Also, higher level spell have a casting time tradeoff to promote strategic thinking.
    Last edited by WaylanderX; 2012-09-26 at 01:59 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Note that the above is in no way the final word on anything. It's a suggestion by me and Waylander, and open for discussion. Feel free to suggest your own stuff.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    This is also a proposal, and in no way final:

    Ougi's
    Each class has secrets hidden within it's teachings. Learning more spells of one's path unlocks these secrets, empowering the caster in some way. When you learn a number of spells you learn a Ougi. An Ougi is an ability the caster learns upon knowing a certain number of spells of the same school or lore.
    Ougi's are divided into five levels as explained on the table below:

    {table=head]Ougi Level|Required Number of spells
    Apprentice|3
    Initiate|7
    Journeyman|10
    Adept|13
    Magister|17
    [/table]

    Motivation for changes:
    No changes here, although the individual arcana's might need some change. Also, to generalize, changed arcana to Ougi's.

    Prestidigitations:

    Prestidigitations are minor magical effects every spellcaster can call forth and achieve at will, largely independently of outside circumstances. Casting a prestidigitation requires a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity and requires no concentration, though having no free or invested focus left prevents the spellcaster from casting them. Casting the cantrip does not take any expenditure or investment of focus.
    Taking damage during the casting of an a prestidigitation does not interrupt it. Prestidigitation are cast with either vocal or somatic components or both, at the caster's choice and they are not subject to arcane spell failure chances for wearing armour.
    The effects of prestidigitation are always fairly minor and include effects such as lifiting 1 pound of material; coloring, cleaning, or soiling items in a 1-foot cube each round; or chilling, warming, or flavoring 1 pound of nonliving material. Other effects can be allowed at the DM's discretion. (The Designer recommends allowing minor effects connected to a School or Lore the spellcaster specializes in, such as producing a tiny flame for a Wizard specialising in the Lore of the Phoenix).
    Prestidigitations cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitations can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial and vanish ten minutes after their creation. The materials created by a prestidigitation are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

    Cantrips


    Cantrips are the most basic applications of magical energies learned by magic practitioners, either arcane or divine. Every lore or school of magic has one cantrip, that is learned automatically along with the first spell from a given lore/school. A cantrip does not take up a spell known slot.
    Cantrips require one standard action to cast and provoke attacks of opportunity, unless otherwise specified.
    They always have both vocal and somatic components, require concentration to cast and are only subject to arcane spell failure chance, so other kinds of casters can use them without trouble. Casting a cantrip takes no expenditure or investment of focus.
    Cantrips can be interrupted by attacks: if the caster takes any damage during the casting, he can make a concentration check DC 10+ points of damage taken to successfully cast the spell, if the check fails, the cantrip fizzles and has no effect. Cantrips can not be cast defensively.
    The power of cantrips increases depending on the caster's focus on the the cantrip's lore/school, based either on the level of the highest spell of that lore/school the caster has prepared (in the case of a prepared caster) or the highest level spell of that lore the caster knows (in case of a spontaneous caster).

    Spells

    Spells are the core element of every spellcaster, their ability to conjure powerfull magical effect to hinder foes or help allies. Every spellcaster uses focus to power his spells. All of them have effect that scales with casterlevel. They are subject to arcane spell failure chance and always have material, somatic and verbal components. They can not be cast defensively. While casting a spell of the highest level or second highest level you can cast, taking any damage during the casting, that is until the point the effect takes place (Next turn for highest level spells, during your full round action for second highest level) immediately disrupts the spell, with no concentration check allowed. With spells two spell levels or lower, concentration checks are allowed to successfully cast the spell. Casting a spell always costs one focus out of your focus pool, which can be free focus (For a spontaneous caster) or invested focus (for a prepared caster). Spell that have a duration longer then spontaneous have focus invested in them till the duration, specified in the spell itself, runs out. After that, the focus point is considered expended. A spell with a duration longer then spontaneous can be dismissed as a free action.

    Learning Spells

    In order to learn spells from a specific school/lore, the class must have access to that school/lore. Any lists outside of the ones specified in the class can not be picked. Second, a character can only learn a number of spells as dictated in his class, there are no bonus spells. To learn a spell from a certain school/lore, a spellcaster must know at least one spell of one spell level lower then the spell he is trying to learn. Also, their maximum level spell they can learn depends on casterlevel, as seen below:

    {table=head]Caster level|Max. spell level
    1 | 1
    3 | 2
    5 | 3
    7 | 4
    9 | 5
    11| 6
    13| 7
    15| 8
    17| 9
    [/table]

    Spell Resistance

    Spell resistance is a special defensive ability some creatures have. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, the creature gains a bonus on the save or touch AC, as appropriate, equal to his spellresistance. If a creature has Spellresistance 3, it gains a +3 bonus on relevant checks to resist or otherwise hinder a harmfull spell. Spellresistance does not affect harmless spells if the creature doesn't want it to.


    Counterspelling

    The act of Counterspelling is that you are using your mental prowess and magical energy to disrupt the casting of a spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if both casters use a different source of magic (Arcane versus Divine for example).

    To counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of your counterspell. You do this by readying an action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since readying an counterspell is considered a standard action.)

    If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + enemy casterlevel). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponentís magical energies and can attempt to counter them. If the check fails, you canít do either of these things.

    Assuming that you succeed on the Spellcraft check, you can then expend 2 focus in the counterspell. Doing so fizzles the enemies spell and the focus that he used for the spell is now considered expended.
    Last edited by WaylanderX; 2012-10-01 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Let me explain my reasoning here.

    First of all, 22 spells is too much for one reason: For many lores, icouldn't even really find 17 spells that were thematically relevant. 22 is probably too much entirely.

    Second: the way it is set up in my fix, the wizard can get two magister arcana. However, to do that, he needs to get almost every spell these lores have to offer, and can not take any spells from elsewhere for versatility. He is quite limited, making up for that in power.

    Third: the wizard can get two magister arcana, the sorcerer 1. The sorcerer has more other features.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Changed it back to normal values, you got a point there.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Let me explain my reasoning here.

    First of all, 22 spells is too much for one reason: For many lores, icouldn't even really find 17 spells that were thematically relevant. 22 is probably too much entirely.

    Second: the way it is set up in my fix, the wizard can get two magister arcana. However, to do that, he needs to get almost every spell these lores have to offer, and can not take any spells from elsewhere for versatility. He is quite limited, making up for that in power.

    Third: the wizard can get two magister arcana, the sorcerer 1. The sorcerer has more other features.
    Unless we're drastically changing the spell write-ups to make individual spells better-scaling and more flexible-- not necessarily a bad idea, but a pretty labor-intensive and fundamental change-- this is a bad idea. The Wilder gets only 21 powers known, and is considered a pretty crappy class for it. I think we can nerf casters without bringing them down so much.

    (I know it's not supported in most fantasy lore, but D&D has its own feel and lore to it by this point, and I thought that's what we were trying to maintain?)

    Also, I haven't had time yet to read your class, Eldan, but I do like what WaylanderX posted about focus. If I'm understanding corrently
    • Casting a spell spontaneously costs focus
    • Preparing a spell means "committing" (basically spending) the focus in advance.
    • Sustaining a spell with a non-instantaneous duration costs focus.
    • Focus can be restored by resting.


    I kind of like that, though I don't know about Arcana (should be a class feature, anyway, not part of the fundamentals of how magic works). I would propose that casters can get some focus back whenever engaged in "non-strenuous activity," such as walking and talking or exploring ruins. Otherwise, you'll have parties sitting and waiting for an hour and a half after every combat. Maybe nothing for the first 15 minutes after casting, then Constitution modifier points every 15 minutes.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-09-26 at 10:45 AM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    I'm not talking about 22 powers known. The wizard, as I wrote it up, got 34 over 20 levels, and I did consider giving them more. Sorcerers got slightly less.

    The focus part is directly copy-pasted from my fix, with some changes.

    Also, what you have is basically correct. I divided spells into Mantras (buffs) and Invocations (mostly instantaneous or sustained spells). Mantras are kept up by investing them with focus (more focus to affect more targets, etc.), while invocations are prepared by wizards by investing them with focus, then cast by releasing that focus.

    As I wrote it up, I thought up Arcana to promote specialization. You need only one spell of every lower level to learn a spell (so, a 2nd and 1st level spell to learn a third level one), so you'd only need 9 spells in one lore to get the ninth level spell out of it. However, taking more than is strictly necessary from the same group is beneficial because it awards you small bonus class features. You study one kind of magic extensively, and it gives you insight into how that kind of magic works and affects the universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Unless we're drastically changing the spell write-ups to make individual spells better-scaling and more flexible-- not necessarily a bad idea, but a pretty labor-intensive and fundamental change-- this is a bad idea. The Wilder gets only 21 powers known, and is considered a pretty crappy class for it. I think we can nerf casters without bringing them down so much.
    Correction, the Wilder gets 11 spells known. And I'm pretty sure it still considered tier 3. The Psion gets 36 known and is tier 2. Psiwar gets 20, and is restricted to 6th level powers, and is tier 3 as well. Similarly, the Crusader has 14 abilities, and the Warblade gets 13, both are considered tier3.

    I'm not really seeing where > 20 abilities is needed to be good. It's needed to get higher tier status, but it all goes back to your intended balance point.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by WaylanderX View Post
    {table=head]Effect|Focus reduction
    Dazzled| -1
    Fatigued| -1
    Shaken| -1
    Sickened| -1
    Has not eaten for 24 hours or more 1| -1
    Has suffered unrestored ability damage from any poison that lowers physical attributes2| -1
    Dazed| -2
    Exhausted| -2
    Frightened| -2
    Nauseated| -2
    Has not had restful sleep for 24 hours or more 3| -2
    Has suffered unrestored ability damage from any poison that lowers mental attributes2| -2
    Confused|-3
    Cowering|-3
    Disabled|-3
    Panicked|-3
    Staggered|-3
    Stunned|-3
    [/table]
    1 This does not apply to creature which need not eat to survive.
    2 Being under the effect of more than one poison does not produce additional focus loss. An arcanist under the effect of both mental and physical poisons only suffers the loss from the mental poison. Poisons which produce any effect other than ability damage either produce the normal focus loss for that condition, if it is on the list (such as a sickening poison producing a focus loss of -1) or have no effect on focus (if their effect is not on this list).
    3This does not apply to creatures which need not sleep (or trance, in the case of elves). This does not stack with the reduction from Fatigued or Exhausted.
    The rest I'd need to see a bit more in-depth, but this part worries me: tables usually aren't good. Especially tables that you use only in edge cases like this one. Having to look up specific information for what happens to a caster after a specific status condition (stuff that, quite likely, people won't memorize, since it's a seldom-referred to table) isn't conducive to the flow of gameplay.

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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    I added that for a simple reason: many conditions are much worse for fighters than casters. A -2 to hit? Makes a fighter less effective at his primary job, barely ever concerns a caster. The goal, here, is to make casters suffer too from being under certain conditions.
    Ideally, if we rewrite that system, it would be either listed under that condition, or, if we go with just four or so condition tracks, would be included in the track system (i.e. go to step 3 on any condition track, lose 2 focus).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I added that for a simple reason: many conditions are much worse for fighters than casters. A -2 to hit? Makes a fighter less effective at his primary job, barely ever concerns a caster. The goal, here, is to make casters suffer too from being under certain conditions.
    Ideally, if we rewrite that system, it would be either listed under that condition, or, if we go with just four or so condition tracks, would be included in the track system (i.e. go to step 3 on any condition track, lose 2 focus).
    Easier solution is to either have spells use to-hit rolls (so it penalizes both), or make to-hit penalties also apply to saving throw DCs. Makes it easier than making a table just for how these things affect casters.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    I don't think that works for all spells. For some, to hit just doesn't make much sense.

    And, well. It wouldn't be a table. It would be one sentence. I can never remember all the effects of every status effect anyway.

    Also, compare this:

    A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

    to this:



    A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. If they are a spellcaster, they lose 2 points of focus as well. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
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    Man, I'm gone for a day and I'm already so behind! It looks like I have some major catching up to do.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Man, I'm gone for a day and I'm already so behind! It looks like I have some major catching up to do.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    So, still any comments on this?

    I'll go over it myself again, see if anything stands out.

    Losing Focus: in my thread, it was discussed that remembering which focus was lost first was difficult, perhaps unreasonably so. I propose a simplification: First, free focus, then sustained spells, then invested focus, in whatever way the caster chooses.

    Regaining focus: the half hour of preparation time should be for prepared casters only.

    Ouji: where does that word come from? Wiktionary only has a Mandarin word, meaning "thoroughfare", which I don't think is what you meant. Google throws up the Japanese word "Oji/ouji" for "prince", which doesn't make much sense either.
    What's so bad about Arcanum? It simply means "Secret", and ties in nicely with this being Arcane classes. (That could be of making them different from divine classes. The divine classes don't learn Arcana, since they don't really study their magic).

    IN general: a lot of what you have written seems to still include tons of 3.5 terminology, from when it was a fix to 3.5 magic to be put on top of it. Example: it refers to spells not being castable defensively when, so far, this system does not have a way of casting defensively at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Ouji: where does that word come from? Wiktionary only has a Mandarin word, meaning "thoroughfare", which I don't think is what you meant. Google throws up the Japanese word "Oji/ouji" for "prince", which doesn't make much sense either.
    I think Waylander was going for "Ouija", which people often mispronounce as "wee-jee", leading to the "Ouji" spelling (it's actually pronounced "wee-yah", as it comes from the French and German words for "yes").

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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Huh. I could maybe see that for divination only, in a weird way, but not for a general term. Sorry, don't like it.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    IN general: a lot of what you have written seems to still include tons of 3.5 terminology, from when it was a fix to 3.5 magic to be put on top of it. Example: it refers to spells not being castable defensively when, so far, this system does not have a way of casting defensively at all.
    That's what this thread is about determining, isn't it?

    I vote against arcana, because it has to apply to divine classes, and the arcane-divine divide is pretty well entrenched. Maybe Mysteries? Also, if those are something that any class can get, I'd like to see them defined here.

    I should probably go read your arcane system, if we're accepting it as the new standard...
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Ouji: where does that word come from? Wiktionary only has a Mandarin word, meaning "thoroughfare", which I don't think is what you meant. Google throws up the Japanese word "Oji/ouji" for "prince", which doesn't make much sense either.
    He meant "ougi", as he asked me about the spelling prior to it, but the g and j have somewhat similar sounds in English, so I think he must've misheard me.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    I was going for Ougi, which is Mystery/Secret in japanese.

    Will fix it Asap. Also, about Spell Resistance? Any good idea's on that? As for now, I just leave it at the basic SR rules.
    Also, Arcana would give off a vibe that is waaaaay wrong what we are trying to do here, as this is supposed to be a general magic system, not an Arcane only one.
    Edit: Added new counterspelling rules adapted to the focus system.
    Last edited by WaylanderX; 2012-09-29 at 12:05 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    If we are going for a check to determine if a spell succeeds, I'd recommend spell resistance making that check harder.
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    I put up a new spellres thingy based on Eldan's proposal.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    OK. My own counter-proposal/thoughts/thingy. 'sall pretty nebulous at the moment, but...

    Start with basic 3.5 casting, with the following quick changes:
    • All spells that affect creatures (as opposed to conjuring objects or affecting the environment) have SR: Yes.
    • Casters roll attacks verses passive Fortitude/Reflex/Will defenses (10+Save modifier; 'normal' saves may be required in certain circumstances, such as rock traps where there's no directing intelligence.)?
    • The fatigued condition imposes a -2 penalty to caster level and a -1 penalty to spell save DCs. The exhausted condition imposes a -6 penalty to caster level, and a -3 penalty to spell save DCs. The caster level penalties cannot reduce a character's caster level below one-half its normal state.
    • One metamagic feat/spell, barring class features.
    • SR turns into a save DC boost somehow. Or possibly a CL hit.


    Fatigue
    Casting a spell is physically and mentally draining. The mechanism used to track this is known as Fatigue. Whenever you attempt to cast a spell, you must roll a Fortitude or Will save with a DC equal to the number of accumulated Fatigue points. Success means that you cast the spell normally, and gain a number of Fatigue points equal to the level of the spell that you just cast. On a failure, you still gain 1 Fatigue point, although the spell is not expended.

    When maintaining spells with durations, such as bull's strength, you take on one Fatigue point per time increment to keep the spell active. (Once per round for a spell with a duration of 1 round/caster level, once per minute for a spell with a duration of 1 minute/caster level, and so on).

    Fatigue points regenerate over time. When not engaged in strenuous activity such as combat, you eliminate Constitution plus Wisdom points per hour. When sleeping or meditating, you eliminate points per five times (Constitution plus Wisdom) points per hour.

    If you accumulate more than (Level + Constitution + Wisdom) Fatigue points, you become Fatigued. If you accumulate more than (two times Level + Constitution + Wisdom) Fatigue points, you become Exhausted. If you accumulate more than (five times Level + Constitution + Wisdom) Fatigue points, you fall unconscious. All conditions persist until your accumulated Fatigue points dip below the threshold once again.

    Implication
    Magic remains powerful, but it becomes more of a limited resource, and it gets really hard to go nova.

    We'd still need to fix certain broken spells. Save-or-sucks could be improved with the condition tracks we were talking about in the general thread. Save or dies too, if we make death the final step on its own track. Polymorph... I like the idea of adding a "start losing your mind when in a strange body" mechanic, but that may be too complicated. Alternately, we could have the spells provide an appearance change, certain static stat changes, and pick off a limited list of functional special abilities. Planar All/Binding/Gate should probably do away with the static rules for negotiation and let it come down to roleplaying.

    Other Possibilities
    • Prepared casters lose the prepared spell completely on a failed Fatigue check, as a counterbalance to the power of preparation.
    • Casters may regenerate spell slots by taking on Fatigue points. (Equal to the spell level?)
    • Start with full-round casting times as default, and take extra Fatigue to speed up?
    • Metamagic grants extra Fatigue?
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-10-06 at 12:36 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Just a note:
    All spells that affect creatures (as opposed to conjuring objects or affecting the environment) have SR: Yes.
    That is pretty much already the case. Those that don't are the spells that first creative something nonmagical then shoot it at/drop it on/etc. a creature.

    I think those should still have no SR, but they should be rare.

    Polymorph: I'm advocating that they give a stat bonus, and special abilities from a list, instead of everything the target creature has.

    My basic change to planar ally et all was to make them take about an hour to cast and require a trade-off. Basically, you undergo a contract with the creature. Such a contract is powerful, magically, and it has to demand something of equal value (usually a favour) from you, or it can not enter the material plane physically.

    "Power of Preparation"... what is the power here? All else equal, I'd say spontaneous casting is a good bit better.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    "Power of Preparation"... what is the power here? All else equal, I'd say spontaneous casting is a good bit better.
    Sorry, bad phrase. I was referring to the way that prepared casters can access and cast virtually any spell on their spell lists. You know, the part that makes them tier 1.
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    If we let them write whatever they want into their spellbooks. I'd say they should have a limited amount of spells known, just a larger one than the sponties. They can only research so much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    If we let them write whatever they want into their spellbooks. I'd say they should have a limited amount of spells known, just a larger one than the sponties. They can only research so much.
    Eh... clerics and druids? I mean, I turned both of 'em into spontaneous casters, but you're a big prepared casting man...
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    I'd be fine with clerics and druids as spontaneous casters. They never made much sense as prepared anyway.

    Plus, it makes the wizard more unique if he's the only preppy.

    Then we have one prepared caster, one arcane caster, one divine caster and one nature caster.

    How Metamagic feats work in your system? You say only one, but if you limit them by maximum spell level as they are in 3.5 core, I really don't think they are a problem. Most of them are rather weak, without mitigation.

    How does preparing spells work with a fatigue system? Do you take fatigue when preparing? As long as you have spells prepared? When finishing your casting? How long can you keep a prepared spells? How many can you prepare?
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    Default Re: G&G: Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I'd be fine with clerics and druids as spontaneous casters. They never made much sense as prepared anyway.

    Plus, it makes the wizard more unique if he's the only preppy.

    Then we have one prepared caster, one arcane caster, one divine caster and one nature caster.
    Fair. I like the druid as a sorcerer-style caster, and cleric as "spontaneous from all their domains."

    How Metamagic feats work in your system? You say only one, but if you limit them by maximum spell level as they are in 3.5 core, I really don't think they are a problem. Most of them are rather weak, without mitigation.
    I know they only really get bad when you stack 'em and use reducers. But with a fatigue system, I'd kind of like to replace the spell level adjustment with extra fatigue, which does sort of make them better. In that cast, a limit of 1/spell is probably necessary.

    How does preparing spells work with a fatigue system? Do you take fatigue when preparing? As long as you have spells prepared? When finishing your casting? How long can you keep a prepared spells? How many can you prepare?
    Mmm... maybe half-fatigue on preparing, half on casting? One on preparing, then full on casting? One/hour until you cast the spell? Possibly in conjunction with half-on-preparing?

    Actually... hmm... I was thinking about otherwise keeping standard 3.5 casting rules, but the fatigue save may be a sufficient limit on spells/duration all by itself.
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