G&G: Magic

[Eldan]

What I find boring is something like the Psion. You have that many points, that's how much you can cast, cast whatever you like out of that. It's such an incredibly dull mechanic. Having points to determine what you can prepare is quite a bit less bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I see where you're coming from. Preparing is cool if you take the Diskworld-type fluff of cramming discrete, semi-sentient spells into your own heat. It's just a pain in the butt when your spell list is enormous, and it can slow down gameplay when you either have to know all 200 spells on your list, and/or look them up every time you prepare.

How 'bout we take a spell point mechanic for spontaneous casters (ie, most of them), and make you fatigued when you've used half your points, and exhausted when you've used three fourths? That gives them back a bit of flavor. Add in some self-inflicted damage to recharge points, and let points recharge over time.

Also, our basic casters:

Wizard: prepared arcane

Archivist: prepared casting of divine spells, wizard mechanics.

Sorcerer: spontaneous arcane

Favored Soul: spontaneous casting of divine spells, sorcerer mechanics.

Cleric: spontaneous casting of all domain spells, plus armor
Druid: spontaneous druid, plus PHB2 shapeshifting.

[Eldan]

I'd rather not use the archivist here. It's a very specialized class and the flavour is far from common. I propose just calling that class "Cleric".

Suggestion:

Wizard: prepared arcane caster, intelligence based, has to learn spells (probably to a maximum amount, to limit versatility).
Sorcerer: spontaneous arcane caster, charisma based.

Cleric: prepared divine caster, wisdom based. Potentially semi-spontaneous with domain spells. Not a holy warrior, but a holy caster and scholar. Frail, no armour, low BAB, but good skills.
Favoured Soul: spontaneous divine caster. A bit more holy-warrior ish, perhaps, but I'd rather like to give him a list of divine blessings, as well, instead of just pure melee ask-kickery.
Paladin: full divine warrior. Little magic, more blessing and smiting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd rather not use the archivist here. It's a very specialized class and the flavour is far from common. I propose just calling that class "Cleric".

In my wizard fix, I made the archivist as a combination of two ACFs- one for divine spells, and one for the dark knowledge feature. So, totally had the same flavor and specialty. I think we'd have more problems with changing the flavor of the cleric name, especially as it's one of the most iconic classes.

On the other stuff, if anyone gets only semi-magic, it's the paladin. But these are pretty minor questions at this point.

[Eldan]

See, there's two problems I see wit hthat. First of all, the cleric is kind of a super-class already (so's the druid, but that's a whole other case). It casts spells and can fight. And with some spells, it fights better than a fighter. Meanwhile, the poor paladin, who is intended to be a divinely blessed knight and kick ass in melee is totally left behind by the cleric. So, I think the cleric should go back to being mainly a caster, while the Paladin should be the divine fighter.

So, shall we go for a points system, then, with wizards preparing their spells ahead, and maybe some kind of limited surge or rest system for regaining some HP and PP*?

*PP is a boring name, but if anyone even suggests Mana, I'm leaving.

[Grod_The_Giant]

See, there's two problems I see wit hthat. First of all, the cleric is kind of a super-class already (so's the druid, but that's a whole other case). It casts spells and can fight. And with some spells, it fights better than a fighter. Meanwhile, the poor paladin, who is intended to be a divinely blessed knight and kick ass in melee is totally left behind by the cleric. So, I think the cleric should go back to being mainly a caster, while the Paladin should be the divine fighter.

Ehh... I see your point, but it's a debate to have later. Hopefully not that much later, but later.

So, shall we go for a points system, then, with wizards preparing their spells ahead, and maybe some kind of limited surge or rest system for regaining some HP and PP*?

*PP is a boring name, but if anyone even suggests Mana, I'm leaving.

Spell points or Magic Points are probably fine. Certainly no worse than Hit Points. I'd prefer a more gradual recharge than surges, though-- say, Constitution (physical toughness) plus Wisdom (mental toughness) points per hour.

Also, a caster level check to cast a spell, with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 spell level.

[Eldan]

That sounds like too many. With that, your average, totally average guy, regenerates 20 per hour on level 1. More if he puts any points at all in wisdom and constitution.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That sounds like too many. With that, your average, totally average guy, regenerates 20 per hour on level 1. More if he puts any points at all in wisdom and constitution.

Weren't we agreed on merging ability scores and modifiers? You'd have a hard time pushing it above 10/hour, especially if your primary casting stat isn't wisdom.

[Midwoka]

*PP is a boring name, but if anyone even suggests Mana, I'm leaving.

Well, I'd go with 'mana' =P
It's widely-recognized, and not only starts with the same letters as 'magic', but is also made up of simple, strong, and primal syllables. "Mah-nah"

If you want to shun accessibility and use a very different word instead, I'll toss out 'galia' (Lithuanian for 'power') and 'buyu' (Turkish for 'magic', though it normally has umlauts over both U's and I'm too lazy to figure out the commands for that) for your consideration. =)

[Eldan]

Mana isn't magical energy. It's a very interesting mystical concept, and using it for magical energy just ruins it for me.

[Eldan]

Would everyone be fine with it if I took all the suggestions and tried to make a synthesis of it in a new thread?

[Eldan]

You know, I've been thinking about magic checks to cast spells, and I think I'm getting a bit more on board with it now that I've been thinking about fluff and interactions. There's a few interesting things you can do with this.


Resistance. There is a way the world wants to be. "Reality", some call it. Like energy levels in physics, "Reality" is a particularly favourable energy level. Magic is expending energy by the caster to temporarily raise the energy level to go to another state. Over time, reality will re-assert itself, in most cases. Spells end, after a while.

Where can we go with this? Some things are more or less difficult to change. Some creatures may already be on a higher energy level, they are unreal. Outsiders and Aberrations come from different worlds. They are already unreal, and so magic has to put more energy into making them even more unreal than normal. They have spell resistance, affecting them is more difficult. On the other hand, some creatures might have a stronger innate reality, so to speak. They are immune to some kinds of magic, or simply resist all ways to change them.

Then? There are also places and objects that are difficult to change. Dead magic zones. Planes with impeded magic. All these would simply make the magic check incredibly hard to do for some or all magic. Perhaps some materials are more difficult to affect with magic. I'm seeing, say, Cold Iron being naturally spell resistant, which is why some magical creatures hate it.

[tarkisflux]

If you were going that way, I would suggest giving everything a SR value (even objects and locations) rather than build an extra check on top of it. Since that's what you're basically doing anyway, throwing yet another activation check on top while also toning down spells and changing mechanics seems a bit overboard.

Actually, here's a full proposal for it that goes for mechanical parity with Grod's combat stuff (assuming he's using armor bonus OR base attack bonus for AC, as opposed to AND). It's not an activation check though, since the spell couldn't really fail just fail to impact anything that you care about (which is fluff distinct, if not particularly mechanically distinct):

All classes would have a "base spell bonus" progression, just like all classes have a base attack bonus progression. Generally, if an attack progression is good the spell progression should be bad, and vice versa. (This might mean dropping the BAB of the cleric and druid).

Just like with an attack roll to hit something, you must make a spell roll to see if you have enough magical power to overcome the inherent resistance of an object. If your roll plus your BSB plus modifiers exceeds their SR value, your spell affects them as indicated. If your roll is insufficient, your spell does not affect them, though it may affect secondary targets or the environment if it would be high enough for them.

A target's SR is equal to 10 + their BSB + some attribute + some (small) misc modifiers. Some objects, like cold iron trinkets, have an inherent resistance bonus that replaces a character's BSB in the above equation if it would be greater. There may or may not be objects that offer a shield style bonus, if those haven't been replaced by action options based on shields instead.

What does this do? Well it makes the answer to "spellcaster" into "guy with a sword" because their AC is going to be much worse than their SR. It means that non-casters carry around protective gear that is better than their poor defensive BSB, so fighters and rogues carry protective cold iron trinkets while wizards cast magic force shields to make up for their poor defensive BAB. It also has interesting implications for multiclassing and spell design, since multiple activation checks like this roll and saves on the same effect is a fairly strong nerf.

And if you want to change the AC terminology slightly, you can turn armor class into attack resistance. Then you have BAB vs AR and BSB vs SR, and pretty mechanical / terminology parity for activation rolls.

[Grod_The_Giant]

things

Oooh... I really like the idea of a base magic progression. Much nicer than using caster level checks. Not quite sure about giving everyone SR, though... it would seem to replace a lot of saves...

Actually, I think I saw an idea on the boards awhile ago to turn SR into a save bonus, and I kind of like that. Possibly also free Evasion/Mettle.

[Yitzi]

Base classes will also be getting some snazzy save-resisted abilities of their own.

Idea: Rework criticals for this purpose.

What I find boring is something like the Psion. You have that many points, that's how much you can cast, cast whatever you like out of that. It's such an incredibly dull mechanic. Having points to determine what you can prepare is quite a bit less bad.

The mechanic for the psion may be a bit dull, but it allows for large versatility, which (if combined with low power) can make for very interesting gameplay.

[Eldan]

Combine the two?

The wizard can spend spell points to prepare spells, then more spell points once he casts them to change them?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Combine the two?

The wizard can spend spell points to prepare spells, then more spell points once he casts them to change them?

Eesh, no. Prepared casting has too many problems as-is; let's not make it even more powerful.

[Eldan]

I still just don't understand why you think prepared casting is weaker than spontaneous casting.

Everything else being equal, shouldn't spontaneous be much better?

The wizard isn't better than the sorcerer because he prepares. He's better because he knows potentially all spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I still just don't understand why you think prepared casting is weaker than spontaneous casting.

Everything else being equal, shouldn't spontaneous be much better?

The wizard isn't better than the sorcerer because he prepares. He's better because he knows potentially all spells.

I'm sorry? I know that prepared casters are significantly more powerful than spontaneous-- that's what I meant by "has too many problems as-is." Letting them change their prepared spells can only make things worse.

[Eldan]

Ah, not change as in "prepare a different one".
The psionic mechanic where you can change parameters of the power, or scale them up. I forgot the name.

And I think prepared casters aren't necessarily more powerful.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I believe the term you're looking for is "augment," in which case yeah, sounds about right.

Also, prepared casters are necessarily more powerful, because power and flexibility are tied so closely.

[Eldan]

True, but prepared casters don't have to be more flexible. Simple example.

The wizard can know a maximum of three spells, and prepare four per day.
The sorcerer also knows a maximum of three spells and casts four per day spontaneously.
Which one is more powerful?

Again, the wizard is not more powerful because he prepares. He is because he knows so many more spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

True, but prepared casters don't have to be more flexible. Simple example.

The wizard can know a maximum of three spells, and prepare four per day.
The sorcerer also knows a maximum of three spells and casts four per day spontaneously.
Which one is more powerful?

Again, the wizard is not more powerful because he prepares. He is because he knows so many more spells.

Ok, preparing is a weaker mechanic, yes. But it's typically associated with a ridiculously expanded spell list, which is when it starts to fail. I'm not sure how many spells you need to have access to before you outstrip spontaneous. Maybe twice as many known?

[Seerow]

Ok, preparing is a weaker mechanic, yes. But it's typically associated with a ridiculously expanded spell list, which is when it starts to fail. I'm not sure how many spells you need to have access to before you outstrip spontaneous. Maybe twice as many known?

I'd say even a 50% increase would be sufficient to get the extra versatility across.

[Deepbluediver]

Since we seem to be discussing the serious possibility of using checks, let me explain a little more of the detail for what I did in my magic system, which actually incorporated a lot of the ideas being tossed about.

(you're free to use all or none of this, or just take inspiration from it)
and I don't really know where to start, logically, so I'm just gonna brain-dump
(1)Spellcraft is not a skill anymore, but a seperate calculated stat, like your attack bonus.

(2)Every time you want to cast a spell, you need to pass a Spellcraft check; there are actually 2 seperate formulas for determining the DC: for a spell that does not target a creature, the Spellcraft DC is 10+twice the spell's level.
For spells that target creatures directly, the Spellcraft DC is the target's Spell Resistance + the spell's level.

Players can voluntarily decrease their Spell Resistance for friendly spells.

(3)Every class has a Base Spellcraft Progression (BSB) that is the inverse of their BAB; this means wizard and sorcerers have a BSB equal to their level, warriors and paladins have a BSB equal to 1/2 their level, and clerics have a BSB equal to their BAB.
So far, I've been rewriting the core classes, and I've worked out reasonable alterations for rangers and paladins (IMO, anyway) but I'm considering changing this to be less set-in-stone. It will still mostly be the same, with a few exceptions (like for the ranger).

(4)Every caster gets bonus spells from Intellect, and all players apply their Wisdom modifier to their BSB (like the addition of Strength to BAB).

There is a feat that lets you add your Charisma to the check as well.

Some classes have a class feature that instead replaces the Wisdom modifier with Charisma

(5)All creatures get a base level of Spell Resistance that increases with their ECL/CR. You add your save bonus to your base SR to calculate your total spell resistance; each save corresponds to different schools of spells.

Mostly, this replaces the normal Saves, though some spells do have additional Save-rules for lessened effects.

In all honesty, this is more complicated than I would like, since you essentially have 3 seperate Spell Resistances, but I haven't come up with anything I like better, yet.



Anywho, those are the biggest points, I think; if I remember something else crucial that I've left out I'll post it. There are few more little rules for dealing with things critical spell failure and SLA's, but those can wait for now.
Let me know if you have any questions.

[Eldan]

Well, discussion in the main thread seems to be almost back to square one. Questions we need answered:

Unlimited spells per day, slots or points?
Casting checks, yes or no?

And on what Deepbluediver wrote : please no extra feat tax on sorcerers. Let every class use their own abilities. For inherent magic, intelligence makes little sense.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Unlimited spells per day, slots or points?
Casting checks, yes or no?

Limited spells per day, but with some sort of (slow) recharge mechanism. I don't mind keeping slots, as it's pretty classic D&D.

Yes to casting checks.

[Eldan]

So, recharge and slots? How does that work?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, that's the real question, isn't it...

Maybe you regain one 1st level slot every hour, one 2nd level slot every two hours, and so on until one 9th level slot every nine hours? With the regeneration time accelerating while asleep?

Or you could regain X slots/hour, to be re-prepared/distributed among spell levels however you see fit.

Of course, I also like spell points for spontaneous casters, and making all casters spontaneous to a greater or lesser degree. If we do keep slots, though, I support making Versatile Spellcaster (the feat that lets you use 2 lower-level slots to cast one higher-level spell) part of the base rules.

[Eldan]

I think that spell points might acutally work, if we have a preparation mechanic along with it for wizards. Because there's realy no good way to restore slots.