G&G Combat Thread v2: A working draft!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Note: At this point, we're planning on reducing ability scores to just modifiers, in the interest of simplicity. This is an official draft.

Combat

Offense

Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Your attack roll with a melee weapon is your Base Attack Bonus + Strength. Your attack roll with a ranged weapon is you Base Attack Bonus + Dexterity.

Automatic Misses and Hits
As in 3.5

Damage
When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal. Effects that modify weapon damage apply to unarmed strikes and the natural physical attack forms of creatures.

Damage reduces a target’s current hit points.

Minimum Damage
If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

Strength Bonus
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength score to the damage result.

Dexterity Bonus
When you hit with a non-thrown ranged weapon, such as a bow or crossbow, add your Dexterity score to the damage result. You may also chose to add your Dexterity score to the damage result in place of your Strength when wielding a light melee weapon.

Special Weapon Rules

Light Weapons
When wielding a light weapon, you may use your Dexterity in place of Strength when calculating your attack bonus and damage results.

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed
When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, instead add one and a half times your Strength to damage. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.

Reach Weapons
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding two light weapons, or a one-handed weapon in one hand and a light weapon in the other, you may take a -2 penalty to attack with both your primary and secondary weapons as a standard action. When using the full attack option, you may make one additional attack for every ten points of BAB. You may chose whether each attack uses your main hand or off-hand, if there are differences.

Shield Bashes
You may bash an opponent with a shield, using it as a weapon. You always use your Strength score when calculating attack and damage during a shield bash. If you only attack with your shield, you may retain your shield bonus to armor class. Alternately, you may choose to use your shield as an off-hand weapon when two-weapon fighting. If you do so, you gain the usual benefits of two-weapon fighting, but you lose your shield bonus to armor class on any turn where you do so.

Defenses

Armor Class
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:

5 + Base Attack Bonus* + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus + Dexterity + Size modifier.

Armor Bonus + Max Dexterity will cap out at 8. Shields will cap out at 4.

*When adding your base attack bonus to your AC, use the next lowest progression. So a fighter would treat his BAB as medium when adding it to AC, a rogue would treat her BAB as poor, and so on.

Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC. Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity score (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t add your Dexterity to AC.

Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your shield modifier, size modifier, Dexterity, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Hit Points
When your hit point total reaches 0, you’re disabled. When it reaches -1, you’re dying. When it gets to -(level+Constitution score), you’re dead.

Speed
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell. Your speed depends mostly on your race and what armor you’re wearing.

If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a "double move" action), you can move up to double your speed. If you spend the entire round to run all out, you can move up to quadruple your speed (or triple if you are in heavy armor).

Saving Throws
Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect. Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a d20 roll plus a bonus based on your class, level, and an ability score. Your saving throw modifier is:

Base save bonus + ability

Base Save Bonus
A saving throw modifier derived from character class and level. Base save bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. Base save bonuses gained from different classes, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.

Saving Throw Types
The three different kinds of saving throws are Fortitude, Reflex, and Will:

Fortitude
These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health. Apply your Constitution score to your Fortitude saving throws.

Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks. Apply your Dexterity score to your Reflex saving throws.

Will
These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects. Apply your Wisdom to your Will saving throws.

Saving Throw Difficulty Class
The DC for a save is determined by the attack itself.

Automatic Failures and Successes
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

The modifier to an initiative check is equal to 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus + Wisdom + Dexterity.

Attacks of Opportunity
Rules unchanged from 3.5

Actions in Combat: Summary
{table]Free Actions|
|Drop an Item
|Speak
Swift Actions|
|Drop Prone
|Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
|Five-Foot Step
|Ready or Loose a Shield
|Stand Up
Move Actions|
|Aim
|Manipulate an Item
|Mount/Dismount a Steed
|Move
|Stand Up
Standard Actions|
|Attack
|Bull Rush
|Charge
|Defend
|Dirty Trick
|Disarm
|Feint
|Grapple
|Interrupt
|Snatch
|Sunder
|Trip
Full-Round Actions|
|Covering Fire
|Full Attack
|Run
|Overrun
|Withdraw[/table]

[Grod_The_Giant]

Actions in Combat

Combat Maneuver Bonus
Most combat maneuvers rely on both skill and physical power. To represent this combination, characters have a Combat Maneuver Bonus, or CMB, equal to their Base Attack Bonus plus their Strength or Dexterity plus their size modifier (see below). Most maneuvers require opposed CMB checks; this is generally referred to as "rolling CMB."

Size Modifiers
{table]Size|Fine|Diminuative|Tiny|Small|Medium|Large|Huge|Gar gantuan|Colossal
Modifier|-8|-4|-2|-1|0|+1|+2|+4|+8[/table]

Free Actions

Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.

Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Swift Actions

Swift actions take a measureable amount of time, more than a free action but less than a move action. You may take one Swift action per turn.

Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a swift action.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a swift action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

Five-Foot Step
As a swift action, you may attempt to back away from an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity. You and the creature or creatures threatening you roll opposed CMB checks. If your check is higher, you do not provoke an AoO from that creature. If their check is higher, you provoke an AoO for the movement as normal.

Stand Up
You may attempt to stand up from a prone position requires as a swift action. Doing so requires a DC 15 Acrobatics check and provokes attacks of opportunity. You still provoke an attack of opportunity on a failed check.

Move Actions

Aim
You may take a move action to take aim at a target. Treat the target as being one range increment closer to you (if using a ranged weapon), and halve the effects of the target's damage reduction against attacks you make this turn.

Manipulate an Item
In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door.

Mount/Dismount a Steed
Mounting or dismounting from a steed requires a move action.

Fast Mount or Dismount
You can mount or dismount as a swift action with a DC 20 Ride check (your armor check penalty, if any, applies to this check). If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. (You can’t attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.)

Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

Crawling
You can crawl one-quarter your speed as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.

Ready or Loose a Shield
Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action.

Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.

Stand Up
You may stand up from a prone position without provoking attacks of opportunity as a move action.

Standard Actions

Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.

Changes from 3.5

• Unarmed attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity if your base attack bonus is at least +1
• Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you must shoot through an allied character's square, any ranged attacks that miss the target have a 20% chance of striking the target. Otherwise, there is no penalty.
• Critical hits: No confirmation rolls are required-- if you roll a natural 20, or within your weapon's threat range, it's a critical hit.

Bull Rush
A bull rush is an attempt to push a foe backwards, using a combination of brute force and cunning footwork. As a standard action, the attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker's check is higher, he moves his foe backwards one foot for every point that his check beats the defender's, although the defender always moves at least five feet on a failed check. The attacker must move with his foe to push him the full distance. Both characters provoke attacks of opportunity for movement, although not from each other. If using a battle grid, round distance moved to the nearest five feet.

Charge
You may move up to your speed in a straight line and make a single melee attack. You suffer a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of your next turn. If you also use your move action to follow the line of the charge (essentially making this a full-round action), you deal bonus damage equal to your Strength.

Defend
You may choose to abandon offense and fight defensively for a round. Until the beginning of your next turn, you gain a +4 bonus to reflex saves, and whenever you are attacked in ranged or melee combat, you may roll 1d20 + your armor class bonuses, instead of the attack being opposed by your armor class bonuses +5. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively* or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

*Functions as in 3.5

Dirty Trick
The "Dirty Trick" option is a broad category, covering things like throwing dirt in an opponent's eyes or throwing a cape at them to hamper their movement. As a general rule, attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker is successful, he may impose one of the following conditions for one round, plus one additional round for every 5 points by which the attacker's roll is higher than the defender's. The attacker should be able to plausibly explain how his attack is inflicting a condition.

• Dazzled
• Deafened
• Flat-Footed
• Impaired
• Hindered
• Stymied

When wielding a ranged weapon, you may attempt a dirty trick against a foe within one ranged increment, but you take a -5 penalty to your CMB for doing so.

Disarm
To attempt to disarm an opponent's weapon or shield, attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. The defender gets a +5 bonus to his roll if a shield disarm is being attempted. If he is wielding a weapon in two hands, he can add his Strength to his defensive CMB roll a second time. If the attacker's roll is higher, the disarm is successful, and the weapon falls to the ground in the defender's square. If the attacker wins by 5 or more, he can toss his opponent's weapon into an adjacent square.

You may attempt a ranged disarm attempt against a foe within one range increment, but you take a -5 penalty for doing so.

Feint
As part of a standard action when making a melee attack, the attacker can roll a Bluff of Sleight of Hand check instead of his normal attack bonus, opposed by his opponent's Sense Motive check or normal Armor Class, whichever is higher. If the attacker succeeds, he strikes his foe, and that foe is considered flat-footed against the attack. You may not make iterative attacks while feinting.

You may feint with a ranged attack as long as you are within 30ft of a foe, although you may not use Sleight of Hand for a ranged feint.

Grapple
You may attempt to imitate a grapple as a standard action. The attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. The defender may substitute and Escape Artist check to avoid the grapple. If the attacker wins, or the defender chooses to allow the grapple to begin unopposed, the grapple begins. If the defender wins, he successfully resists the grapple attempt. Once the grapple is initiated, both characters have the same options, all standard actions, and all based on opposed CMB rolls.

• Escape from the grapple. (Only a standard action if the other character attempts to prevent the escape; if unopposed, it's a swift action.) You may substitute an Escape Artist check in place of the CMB roll.
• Deal unarmed damage or attack with a light weapon.
• Attempt to use an opponent's light weapon against them. You take a -2 penalty to CMB when attempting this action. If you succeed, use your opponent's weapon's base damage and your own Strength score.
• Drag your foe, as if making a Bull Rush attempt.
• Cast a spell or use a spell-like ability. A DC 20 Concentration check is also required, and the caster takes a -5 penalty to both rolls if the spell has somatic components.
• Attempt to pin a foe

• Pinned foes take a -2 penalty to CMB rolls while pinned.
• Pinned foes cannot take any physical actions except to attempt to escape the pin with an opposed CMB roll, or an Escape Artist check.
• Characters pinning a foe can deal unarmed damage or attack with a light weapon without making an opposed roll.

Interrupt
As a standard action, you may ready an attempt to interrupt a foe's next action. As long as that foe remains within range of your weapon, every move, standard, and full-round action he makes provokes an attack of opportunity. If your attack hits, the foe must roll a Fortitude save, with a DC equal to the damage dealt. If they fail, they cannot complete the action, and the action is wasted. Only one attack of opportunity per round can be an interrupt attempt, even if you could normally make multiple attacks of opportunity per round

Snatch
When attempting to grab an crown, amulet, or other item not actively being wielded by a foe, the attacker and defender roll opposed CMB checks. The attacker may roll Sleight of Hand instead of CMB. If the attacker's roll is higher, he successfully grabs the item. You must have at least one hand free to make a Snatch attempt.

Sunder
When attempting to damage a foe's weapon, both parties make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker wins, he deals damage directly to his foe's weapon. Attempting to sunder armor is a standard attack roll, dealing damage directly to the armor.

Characters may make ranged Sunder attempts, but suffer a -5 penalty for doing so.

Trip
When attempting to make a trip attempt, both parties make opposed CMB checks. The attacker gets a +2 bonus if his weapon is described as being able to make Trip attempts, such as a flail. If the attacker wins, the defender is knocked prone.

Full-Round Actions

Covering Fire
When wielding a ranged weapon, you may designate a cone area, starting at your square and extending out to one-half the first range increment of your weapon. Until the beginning of your next turn, any foes who move in the designated area provoke attacks of opportunity from you. Foes with an Intelligence of at least -3 are aware of this threatened area.

When taking the Covering Fire action, you may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to one-fourth your base attack bonus.

Full Attack
As a full-round action, you may make one extra attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus you possess. All extra attacks are at a -5 penalty.

Overrun
An overrun attempt is an attempt to plow past or over an opponent. As a full-round action, you may move up to twice your speed and attempt to overrun any creatures in the way. To attempt to overrun a foe, the attacker must be at least the same size as his opponent or larger.

You must roll opposed CMB checks against each opponent. If the attacker wins, he moves through the opponent's square and continues the movement. If he wins by 5 or more, he knocks them prone. If the defender wins the check, the attacker's movement is stopped at that point, and the action is over.

If you make mounted overrun attempts, instead of rolling CMB, you roll your ranks in Ride plus your mount's Strength plus his size modifier. Your mount's size determines how large a creature you may overrun.


Run
You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to five times your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain.

Withdraw
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), you and the enemy or enemies threatening that square may roll opposed CMB checks. If you succeed, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed.

Note that despite the name of this action, you don’t actually have to leave combat entirely.

Restricted Withdraw
If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Reserved just in case they're catching up to me.

EDIT: Everything I've got is up. Post away!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alright...let's run some numbers. We'll assume a +3 bonus in the primary offense/defense statistics

Avg. Attack Bonus: X + 3
Avg. Defense Bonus: 5 + X + Armor + Shield + 3.


Now let's assume that I'm attacking a weaker foe: I have a +20 BaB, he is a wizard with +10. He's got +6 AC from Magical Armor.

Avg. Attack: 20 + 3 = +23
Avg. Defense: 5 + 10 + 6 + 3 = 24

Now I score an average hit: 11 on the die, for a 34. Also note that I only miss on a roll of 1.

I hit twice with a two-handed weapon for, say, 2d6+12 each time, making a total of 4d6+24 damage.

However, I'd hit SIX times with two light weapons, which, even at a pitiful 1d6+3 per hit, totals 6d6+18 damage.

I think that, under this system, two-weapon fighting will ALWAYS get more reliable damage, provided you can hit the target on, say, 15-16+. Two hits seems to be a reliable break-even point, assuming the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, and anything more than that is icing on the cake. Since the number disparity is so large (ranging from 15 base AC to 25 base AC at level 20, and +10 BaB to +20 BaB, not counting modifiers), there will always be targets that a 2-handed wielder can virtually shred to pieces. Is this intentional?

I think the "hit over" system is getting mixed results due to the wide gap in offense and defenses. Do you want auto-hits put into the system? 'cause my numbers didn't account for a maximized attack roll, and it still hit the relatively lightly defended mage on a roll of 1. Intentional?

[Seerow]

Honestly the get multiple hits for beating their AC by X seems way too swingy, especially with a d20 as your resolution mechanic. Just figure, against the same target you could get anywhere between 1 and 10 hits, depending on how well you rolled, while two weapon fighting with light weapons. It's not quite so bad with the default or two handed weapons, but even there the swing is 3-4 attacks difference. With that kind of swing there is basically no way you can set up defenses meaningfully and accurately judge what kind of damage per round a character is doing. You can look at averages, but your standard deviation is going to be so high that it's meaningless.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think the "hit over" system is getting mixed results due to the wide gap in offense and defenses. Do you want auto-hits put into the system? 'cause my numbers didn't account for a maximized attack roll, and it still hit the relatively lightly defended mage on a roll of 1. Intentional?

I was thinking of the auto-hits to simplify and speed up combat, replacing rolling for iterative attacks. With your numbers, the two-handed weapon deals an average of 38, and the two light weapons deal an average of 39-- hardly an unfair advantage, especially if you take DR into account.

I can get behind a full-BAB character auto-hitting a half-BAB character if he gets a good swing at him. If we take your numbers and run them for a pair of full-BAB characters, the average defense becomes 34, meaning that an average attack against a well-matched defender will tie. A good situation, if you ask me.

On the subject of swing... is it that much more uneven than 3.5 full attacks? 1-10 attacks when TWF is pretty close to what you'd get at max level with all the TWF feats...

[Siosilvar]

On the subject of swing... is it that much more uneven than 3.5 full attacks? 1-10 attacks when TWF is pretty close to what you'd get at max level with all the TWF feats...

Multiple rolls give you reduced standard deviation. A TWFer making a full attack is likely to hit with, say, four attacks, and less so with any other number, but this roll over system means it's equally likely to get any amount of attacks from 1 to 10. Unless you made attack rolls with 6d4-4 or something like that (I didn't do the math), it's swingier.

EDIT: Plus I think the fewer different variables you have, the easier it'll be to remember. "+15, then subtract and divide by five, except when it's seven, three, two, or not at all" is much harder to remember than "three attacks at +15, +10, and +5" is harder than "three attacks at +11 each" (with a Rapid Shot-style multiple attack system, which I think I'm going to use the next time I run a game).

[Knaight]

Iterative Attacks
If your attack roll is high enough, you are considered to have struck your target multiple times. For every 5 points by which your attack roll exceeds your target's armor class, you strike your target an additional time, inflicting standard weapon damage each time.

• When wielding a light weapon, you only need to exceed your target's armor class by 3 points.
• When wielding a two-handed or reach weapon, you need to exceed your target's armor class by 7 points.
• When wielding a weapon in each hand, you only need to exceed your target's armor class by 3 points.
• If wielding a light weapon in each hand, you only need to exceed your target's armor class by 2 points.
• Non-repeating crossbows and similar weapons with reload times cannot make iterative attacks.

Given the linear distribution of a d20, I'd be concerned about some of these. Take the light weapon in each hand - if you need to roll a 10 to succeed, and you roll a twenty you get five extra attacks. Similarly, you get over three times as many extra attacks as someone with a reach weapon or two handed weapon regardless, which also seems potentially excessive.

I like the core idea of going over AC for extra attacks and such - for that matter, my Combat Shifts homebrew* from a few years ago was largely centered on the concept. The current numbers just seem off.

Defenses

Armor Class
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:

5 + Base Attack Bonus + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus + Dexterity + Size modifier.

Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC. Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity score (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t add your Dexterity to AC.

As long as we are rewriting this - a defense bonus due to having a weapon would also be nice to have. That you aren't harder to hit when armed is a real oddity in 3.x, and getting a bit of a boost from a weapon both helps this and provides another way to differentiate weapons.

*It occurs to me that it could work as a core mechanic decently in a redesign.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I was thinking of the auto-hits to simplify and speed up combat, replacing rolling for iterative attacks. With your numbers, the two-handed weapon deals an average of 38, and the two light weapons deal an average of 39-- hardly an unfair advantage, especially if you take DR into account.

True...but that was dealing 1d6+3 vs. 2d6+6 damage. That's with no feats, no magic, and no damage enhancers. Each of those added tips the damage further in favor of multi-weapon fighting. Every +1 you add means +2 for the 2-handed weapon wielder, and +6 for the two-weapon fighter.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Given the linear distribution of a d20, I'd be concerned about some of these. Take the light weapon in each hand - if you need to roll a 10 to succeed, and you roll a twenty you get five extra attacks. Similarly, you get over three times as many extra attacks as someone with a reach weapon or two handed weapon regardless, which also seems potentially excessive.

I like the core idea of going over AC for extra attacks and such - for that matter, my Combat Shifts homebrew* from a few years ago was largely centered on the concept. The current numbers just seem off.

Crap, you're right. Numbers are hard to get right when we've got different parts of the system under construction at the same time...

As long as we are rewriting this - a defense bonus due to having a weapon would also be nice to have. That you aren't harder to hit when armed is a real oddity in 3.x, and getting a bit of a boost from a weapon both helps this and provides another way to differentiate weapons.

Ooh, good call.

True...but that was dealing 1d6+3 vs. 2d6+6 damage. That's with no feats, no magic, and no damage enhancers. Each of those added tips the damage further in favor of multi-weapon fighting. Every +1 you add means +2 for the 2-handed weapon wielder, and +6 for the two-weapon fighter.

Dang. Yes, you're right.

Multiple rolls give you reduced standard deviation. A TWFer making a full attack is likely to hit with, say, four attacks, and less so with any other number, but this roll over system means it's equally likely to get any amount of attacks from 1 to 10. Unless you made attack rolls with 6d4-4 or something like that (I didn't do the math), it's swingier.

Yes, that's right... <facepalm>

EDIT: Plus I think the fewer different variables you have, the easier it'll be to remember. "+15, then subtract and divide by five, except when it's seven, three, two, or not at all" is much harder to remember than "three attacks at +15, +10, and +5" is harder than "three attacks at +11 each" (with a Rapid Shot-style multiple attack system, which I think I'm going to use the next time I run a game).

Eh. It's based on what weapon you're wielding, so after you calculate your attack and damage bonus, you just put a little note: "iteratives at 3." (Also, the swing is +- 2)

Basically... I like the idea of extra-attacks-for-beating-AC replacing extra-attacks-for-a-high-BAB, but a d20 system is too random to support it?

[Seerow]

Basically... I like the idea of extra-attacks-for-beating-AC replacing extra-attacks-for-a-high-BAB, but a d20 system is too random to support it?

Basically. You could pull it off with a resolution system that has an inherent bell curve, but given you guys are going for 3.5+ I don't see that as an option. And not really sure I'd want it to be regardless.

[Eldan]

Two other problems with dropping Iteratives in favour of hitting over for more damage:
First, Power Attack. What does it do, now? does it even still exist?
Second, with several attacks, you can attack more than one target, or do several combat maneuvers in one round.

Also, with your system, it doesn't seem unlikely that for the same attack roll, a light weapon would deal more damage than a heavy one. Does that seem right to you?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The 3e standard for extra attacks seems to be "get one extra attack with X limitations, all attacks this round take a -2 penalty," whether it's Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Snap Kick, or something else. Maybe instead of adding iterative attacks by rolling high, you can use that system (-2 for each extra attack) with different styles interacting with it slightly differently.

Something like the following: Instead of getting two attacks at +6/+1 at BAB +6, you can get two attacks at +4/+4. One-handed is the accurate-against-one-guy style, so maybe you reduce the penalties by -1 if you attack only a single opponent on your turn. TWF is the roll-lots-and-hope-some-hit style, so maybe instead of making two separate attacks at +4 each you roll twice and take the better roll; if it hits you deal damage as if you hit with both weapons, if it misses you miss cleanly. THF is the high-damage-low-accuracy style, so make it like Decisive Strike: roll one attack at -2 that deals double damage if it hits (and on a side note, I'd suggest putting a lower cap on Power Attack to prevent PAing for full with the reduced penalties, unless you're sure that tighter control of bonuses will mean accuracy won't outstrip AC by a lot anymore). Light weapons reduce the penalty by -1 and two-handed weapons increase it by -1.

Then, instead of making lots of other abilities that let you add additional attacks (which would defeat the purpose of limiting numbers of attacks), you make the other abilities add situational benefits. Flurry of Blows doesn't let you make a third attack, it just lets you use all of your attacks on a standard action--or, if you're already making full attacks standard actions, lets you make your second attack as a swift action if you spent your standard action doing a combat maneuver or another martial thing that's not an attack. Snap Kick lets you "save up" your second attack (take the penalties on your turn, add the second attack to an AoO). Cleave doesn't make you roll again, you just apply the same attack roll and damage roll, effects, etc. against the new target. Rapid Shot just adds together the damage of both attacks before applying DR. And so on and so forth.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Two other problems with dropping Iteratives in favour of hitting over for more damage:
First, Power Attack. What does it do, now? does it even still exist?
Second, with several attacks, you can attack more than one target, or do several combat maneuvers in one round.

Also, with your system, it doesn't seem unlikely that for the same attack roll, a light weapon would deal more damage than a heavy one. Does that seem right to you?

Power Attack: Take the penalty to the attack roll, get the bonus to damage to all attacks you hit with.
Multiple attacks: See the new Full Attack option: take attack penalties to attack extra foes, with iterative attacks still functioning normally.

I hadn't really crunched numbers, since their final form will probably depend on things like weapon and armor stats and modifier stacking, which we haven't dealt with. I'm also thinking about DR, where even a little bit is going to hurt rapid-fire light weapons.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ok, how 'bout this for multiple attacks:

For every 5 points of BAB, you may make one additional weapon attack per turn. Each extra attack is at your full BAB, with a penalty based on the weapon you are wielding:

• -4 for a two-handed weapon.
• -2 for a one-handed weapon.
• -1 for a light weapon.

When wielding a weapon in your off-hand, you gain a new set of attacks, but all are taken at a -1 or -2 penalty, as if they were iterative attacks. Thus, a character with a +10 BAB and a pair of shortswords could make 3 attacks with his primary hand (one at full BAB and two at BAB -1) and 3 attacks with his off hand (all at BAB -1)

(Numbers are pure guesswork at the moment)

[Knaight]

Ok, how 'bout this for multiple attacks:

For every 5 points of BAB, you may make one additional weapon attack per turn. Each extra attack is at your full BAB, with a penalty based on the weapon you are wielding:

• -4 for a two-handed weapon.
• -2 for a one-handed weapon.
• -1 for a light weapon.

This could work, but it's still questionable. Take a look at how SAGA does it, and for that matter read the Shifts system I linked earlier - it might actually be pertinent to your original idea, and while it does generally avoid multiple attacks it still provides a bonus to clearing AC well.

[Eldan]

Currently, I'm mainly wondering: what is the benefit of two weapons, in real life? Is it really more attacks in the same time? Most styles I can remember with two weapons mainly seem to use the second weapon for parrying, with the occasional stab if there's an opportunity with it.

How about changing TWF, so that it doesn't give more attacks, but instead gives you an AC bonus similar to a shield, depending on weapon size, and a bonus on feints, or something like that?

The shifts system is also a pretty good idea. If I may make a suggestion:

Advantages*
Advantages in combat are everything that gives you an advantage and the opponent a disadvantage. Every situation that benefits one fighter more than the other gives one advantage, which can be spent on several things.

Example situations that give advantages:
-One fighter being invisible
-Surprise attack
-Feint
-Flanking
-One fighter being prone
-Beating the opponents AC by X or more with an attack roll
-One fighter being unarmed
-Etc.

As a swift action (or so), one or more advantages can be spent on:
-More damage per advantage spent
-A dirty trick (see above)
-Initiating a combat maneuver with a bonus per advantage spent
-Preventing an AoO an opponent could make
-Negating an enemy advantage
-Lowering enemy AC
-Other things Knaight suggested in his shift system

*I like that name more for a general system.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Currently, I'm mainly wondering: what is the benefit of two weapons, in real life? Is it really more attacks in the same time? Most styles I can remember with two weapons mainly seem to use the second weapon for parrying, with the occasional stab if there's an opportunity with it.

Depends entirely on the fighting style. Some styles focus on fluidity of strikes, some on parrying, some on any number of other things. It's really more weapon and style dependent than it is one or two weapon dependent.

[Eldan]

Hm. Drop TWF, include [Style] feats?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hm. Drop TWF, include [Style] feats?

Potentially a better suggestion. One that makes *me* feel a little better, anyway.

[Eldan]

Okay. Just throwing some ideas out there.

Two-weapon fighting:
Normally, you may attack with either your main or off-hand weapon in any given turn. Holding a weapon in your off-hand gives you no benefits or penalties whatsoever.

Main Gauche: [Style]

Requirement: You must wield any weapon in your main hand and a light blade in your off-hand.
Benefit: This style offers four benefits.
First, your off-hand weapon gives you a bonus to armour class just as a light shield.
Second, once per turn, you may feint as a swift action instead of a standard action.
Third, you are treated as being one size category larger for purposes of your CMB on any disarm attempt.
Fourth: you may make an additional attack of opportunity per round.

Two swords as one

Requirement: you must wield a one-handed weapon in your main hand, and a light weapon in your off-hand.
Benefit: this style offers four benefits:
First, your off-hand weapon gives you a benefit to armour class just as a buckler.
Second, you gain add your off-hand weapon's base damage as a bonus on your main weapon's damage.
Third, if your off-hand weapon is made of any special material, your main weapon is treated as being made of the same material.
Fourth: if you are flanked by three or fewer opponents, they receive no advantage for flanking you.

[Seerow]

I actually do like that Shifts system. Looking at Eldan's suggestion for expanding it, it looks like something I've been playing with, where AoOs get replaced with a opportunity system. So a character who moves through a Fighter's threatened area rather than automatically provoking an AoO, incurs opportunity. Any opponent can choose to use that opportunity for something. So a Fighter might be able to use the Opportunity to make a free attack against the enemy, or a Rogue might use it to make an attack into a sneak attack. You can also have spells that require certain amount of opportunity on the target to work, and most status effects would probably generate opportunity on the target.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mmm, I think I maybe will do something with the advantage system. Bonus damage instead of extra attacks will speed things up, for sure...

Eldan, those feats are pretty solid, although:

Second, once per turn, you may feint as a swift action instead of a standard action.

The new feint is substituting Bluff or Sleight of Hand for attack, and Insight for AC. The attack is part of the standard action. Not saying that a second attack as a swift action is bad, per se, but it may be better than you intended.

[Eldan]

Just vague ideas to throw out there. The important thing is the advantage system.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'll get to work on it later today, probably. Got to do some homework/prep for an IRL game first.

[Eldan]

Another thing: I'm reading over all of it again ,now, so comments as I get there.

Armour class: by your formula, AC will be four or five points lower at level 1. Is that intended?

[Seerow]

Another thing: I'm reading over all of it again ,now, so comments as I get there.

Armour class: by your formula, AC will be four or five points lower at level 1. Is that intended?

I'm not Grod, but I would assume yes. In 3.5, you start with a high AC and low attack bonuses, and at higher levels have a lower AC and higher attack bonuses. With the change to making AC scale with BAB, the result would be having a >50% miss chance for the entire span of the game. Dropping base AC to 5 is the quick and dirty easy fix to that problem. The other option is the one 4e/5e take of giving everyone a +2-3 to hit for free.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I did notice that, but I didn't see a better way to take armor into account. We might want to compensate with a first-level health boost like 4e did.

[Eldan]

I think that should be a thing anyway. First level characters are a bit too fragile. Wizards shouldn't die to goblins with shortswords in one round. Double Hit points at first level? You get quadruple skill points at first level, so getting more of something isn't unprecedented.

[Seerow]

I think that should be a thing anyway. First level characters are a bit too fragile. Wizards shouldn't die to goblins with shortswords in one round. Double Hit points at first level? You get quadruple skill points at first level, so getting more of something isn't unprecedented.

You already get effectively double hp at first level by virtue of max HD.

Why not take a tip from 4e and say get con score instead of con mod at level 1? That gives you between 9 and 14 extra hp (assuming a range of 8-18), Or is that more HP than what you're looking for?