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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    So one of my players who is a Halfling Rogue brought up a difficult to handle hurtle to realism in the game. During a huge fight He performed very well, while playing completely in character and without power gaming. (An Orc barbarian tried to grapple him but he had readied an action to throw his bandoleer of Alchemist's Fires and Acids 12 in all on his own square when the Orc entered it, and so much more Halfling highjinks) Anyway as a reward for his and the rest of the group's great session I decided to dish out a little extra loot. One in particular was a Ring of Lockpicking. It was found on the severed hand of one of the Orcs. I expected the Halfling to be really excited because he always had difficulty picking locks effectively and mostly had to have the wizard knock things. But when the loot was being divided he said flat out that the ring wouldn't/shouldn't fit. The Finger size of the Orc would be far to large for a halfling's. even the Orc's pinky would be thicker than the Halfling's thumb.

    It raised the question could a craftsmen or even a PC with enough ranks in the correct craft resize magical rings, hem in cloaks, shirts, and the like, and even recycle boots and keep thier magical properties. Or would the act of cutting out part of the object constitute destroying it's magical properties.
    Last edited by Doc_Pippin; 2012-09-27 at 04:30 PM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Magic items like rings automatically resize.
    "78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature."
    I really haven't. The players quickly move to the tavern after the campaign starts but they never start there. Even the three which have taken place in a city.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    I'm almost positive that this is permitted to a degree. One size difference is usually acceptable from what I've seen.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    In most editions of D&D, magic items automatically re-size to fit any wearer. You would need a really Hard Old School game for there to be no re-sizing.


    It's just one of the Game Things, like everyone speaks Common.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    In most editions of D&D, magic items automatically re-size to fit any wearer. You would need a really Hard Old School game for there to be no re-sizing.


    It's just one of the Game Things, like everyone speaks Common.
    2nd edition had a whole chart for the chances that a suit of magical armor would fit a character of a different race than it was designed for. I don't think details were ever given on rings, I always assumed they were auto-resizing. If it's good enough for Tolkein it's good enough for me. In 2nd, Boots and cloaks I would kick into a similar camp as armor, perhaps with a favorable boost because cloth is more forgiving than metal.

    3.5 and onward? guess I'm not as familiar with the armor size-matching rules there.
    78% of all DM's start their first campaign in a tavern. If you're among the 22% who didn't, copy and paste this into your signature and tell us where you DID begin.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos777 View Post
    Magic items like rings automatically resize.
    Not to disreguard your statement but I tried using that as a statement and all of my players nearly exploded, "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear

    Very Powerful Items like the One Ring would be large and by exceptions because they are so incredibly powerful that resizing would be the smallest of its powers but I don't think every ring should auto size.

    If a very low level ring were to be found and the party new it was made of a metal that could be worth more than the enchanted ring's worth what would stop an huge+character from taking and smelting the ring. It auto sized to him when he took it so how its 3-4 times its normal size and therefore 3-4 times as much vaulable material in the ring. That makes all precious metals worthless because any level of enchantment can then stretch and essensially just create these precious metals
    Last edited by Doc_Pippin; 2012-09-27 at 05:12 PM.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    Not to disreguard your statement but I tried using that as a statement and all of my players nearly exploded, "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear
    What happens if he gets fat? Gets a magical graft? Use alter self? Is reincarnated as another race? Ascends to demonhood?

    A magic item is a big investment and it would suck to have to take off your +3 ring of awesome just because you have swollen fingers.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDeathkeeper View Post
    I'm almost positive that this is permitted to a degree. One size difference is usually acceptable from what I've seen.
    I can seen somewhat of a transfer here but I think that it would be more drastic I mean even between humans a female ring size of 7 would never in their wildest dreams go on a man's size 11 finger

    I think a tiny character could mostlikely use a large or huge sized ring for a braclet and and any larger as a really heavy belt. but a alfling would be sized like a child for rings size 4 estimate the average human male has size 10 and Large beefy men ( used for Orc example) would were approximately 15-16 ring size. So a child's size 4 and an Orc's size 15 would never really fit it would slide off as soon as it was put on

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    What happens if he gets fat? Gets a magical graft? Use alter self? Is reincarnated as another race? Ascends to demonhood?

    A magic item is a big investment and it would suck to have to take off your +3 ring of awesome just because you have swollen fingers.
    As true as that may be for some BBEGs Im just even thinking of a normal mind set. Not from a gamer's perspective buying a ring today is a huge investment with the same restraint on sizing issues (minus the magical ones) but people still but 10,000 dollar rings because they can. When buying a ring one doesn't plan of getting fat, dieing and being brought back as a new creature, grafting limbs onto ones body, or completely changing species. Only people who plan to do those things in the end ever would and a vast majority of people will never see ort plan that far ahead. That leads to the same question though could someone resize a magical ring if one of these things happened and suddenly the ring is worthless until fixed

    I would think a low level spell with the material component of whatever the ring was made of could be added to the world to fix the problem of going up in size but what would one need to go down sizes not more metal but... how to resize the fing without giving the player the excess metals so as to stop the normal use of using that spell to harvest metals from ores
    Last edited by Doc_Pippin; 2012-09-27 at 05:28 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    THe DMG (3.5, page 213) has this to say:

    When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
    Armor and weapons don't resize, but jewelry does.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeraa View Post
    THe DMG (3.5, page 213) has this to say:



    Armor and weapons don't resize, but jewelry does.

    I understand that the DMG states this, but Thats why I brought the issue to the Playground. If we want to use RAW for everything than every campaign will end at level 1 when i flood the universe with chickens from my level 1 commoner. We Homebrew the world and house rule things to add more intelligent facets to the game. As I explained above the magical resizing rule seems terrible IMO so I would like to see what the other Playgrounders thought on the topic of resizing rings

    A Magical Vest made for Halflings should not ever Fit a Mountain giant why should their rings?
    Last edited by Doc_Pippin; 2012-09-27 at 05:41 PM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Seriously, dude? Seriously? You're the DM. You could have just said "the ring resizes itself for the wearer". It's already a magic ring, so not likes its stretch. And if you don't want that to effect the price, you ARE the DM.

    Or just tell him to stop being a buzz-killing little prick and wear the damn ring!!!
    Last edited by BootStrapTommy; 2012-09-27 at 06:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    That makes all precious metals worthless because any level of enchantment can then stretch and essensially just create these precious metals
    To be fair, this is pretty much already the case. Don't think too hard about the economy of D&D; you'll break your brain (chickens, tippytraps, there's no limit to the reasons normal economics don't function). Besides, this particular use probably wouldn't work--resizing jewelry (as RAW) presumably uses an effect similar to the one bestowed on your equipment by Enlarge Person and the like--when you take it off, or perhaps when it ceases to be enchanted (ie you melt it down), it returns to its "normal" size, so you can't abuse it for infinite gold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    A Magical Vest made for Halflings should not ever Fit a Mountain giant why should their rings?
    Honestly it seems like your mind is already made up, so I'm a bit unclear why you're even asking. Did you only want our opinion on non-magical, craft-check resizing of jewelry/etc? If that's the case, and you're dead-set against magically-resizing jewelry, I don't really see what choice you have but to allow a craft check to resize magic items. Honestly I'd probably allow it anyway, unless you desperately want to keep tabs on the size of the appendages of the enemies you throw at the party.

    Or just retcon the whole thing to say he was wearing it as a toe ring (because the vast majority of rings in the world are now going to be much too small for Orc fingers, right?).
    Last edited by Dr Bwaa; 2012-09-27 at 05:58 PM.
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear"
    >Fantasy role-playing setting that includes elves, dwarves, dragons, demons, multiply planes and dieties and MAGIC.
    >Players have a hard time believing that common items with magical properties resize to fit them.

    I think it's safe to say you need to get a new play group. Because there's something wrong with them. Willful suspension of disbelief is key to fantasy. Without you just sound like a fool talking about how absurd it is that the sky is blue.
    Last edited by BootStrapTommy; 2012-09-27 at 06:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    First off, I would like to applaud you and your group for sticking to your guns on this one! If that's the way you guys want to play it, go for it. I'd hesitate to speak for others, but I'm fairly sure that most people glaze over details like this with the whole "magical resizing" thing or by not even considering it. That you want to put this detail in is, as I say, laudable.

    As for a ruling on adjusting magical items, if it were my game I'd probably allow anyone with the requisite Item Creation feat to perform the job for a nominal fee of 1/10th of the items original cost, maybe. Dunno, that's just my gut instinct, so it's something I might reconsider if someone complained too hard about it. However, I'd also allow a certain amount of leeway with regards to using over- or undersized items...many people, for example, wear rings (such as wedding rings) on a pendant if their fingers swell (such as when they get older), so I might let a halfing wear a medium sized ring as an amulet instead and still get the magical benefit. Similarly, a medium sized cloak might be usable as a make-shift small robe with a few added sashes and pins or a small necklace could be wrapped around a medium sized forearm in place of a bracer.

    Obviously if this kind of thing began to be misused, then I'd clamp down on it, but for one off cases like the one in the OP, then it might be an option.
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-09-29 at 09:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Do you realize how absurd it is to question the realism of fantasy? It's fantasy. The very feature which makes it fantasy is that it contains the absurd. If people can fly by challenging a "mysterious energy" into their body and lifting themselves off the ground, the stretch to the fact that all rings resize for the wearer is not that much farther. In fact, that's almost less of a stretch. Why get caught up on that when that might only serve to create problems?

    The very key to fantasy is the willful suspension of disbelief. It's full of the absurd and of things that are not real and could never happen. For it to work with a rational mind, a rational mind must leave it presumptions at the door and suspend disbelief which arises from the encounter with the absurd. Fantasy is crazy, and for it to entertain, you must accept that it is. It is fantasy after all.

    Fantasy is the UNREAL. So there is a measure of absurdity in trying to apply the REAL to the UNREAL. This is, admittedly, something most people tend to do however. Very simply there is no huge problem with what your friends are doing, but they should expect to run into problems if they do so, and they should expect that at a point they just have to swallow their rationalism and accept the fantasy as it is, absurd.

    It's futile to try and apply realism to every aspect of fantasy.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-09-29 at 09:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    It's also common that something that IS, in fact, magical can be explained as being magical.
    And my groups were perfectly intelligent and we ran on the universal jewelry rule and had magical items all the time, so the two qualities of a group are not mutually exclusive.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-09-29 at 09:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by BootStrapTommy View Post
    It's futile to try and apply realism to every aspect of fantasy.
    Exactly, the game already contains things that don't exist in real life like magic and monsters. I don't see the purpose in nitpicking the size of fingers since it just takes away the fun of the game.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by hobbitkniver View Post
    ...it just takes away the fun of the game.
    For you and others who've posted here, maybe, but do not presume that the same set of ideals applies to everyone. Fun for some is imagining that a magical ring doesn't resize to fit whoever wears it. Fun for these people is overcoming or compensating for the fact that they've got a powerful artefact that, right at this minute, they cannot use.

    The point is not that magical rings cannot resize in any given fantasy, but rather that they don't resize in this particular fantasy. I don't think anyone would argue that because magic exists that the potential for resizing can't exist, just as it's absurd to argue that because magic exists that resizing must exist.
    I apologise if I come across agressive. I'm the sort of person that will poke a wasps nest, just to see what happens. I don't hate you, I just like a good argument

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    There is already a precident for re-sizing things manually.in 3.5: full plate armor.

    Boots would be the.worst for this. What are the chances that the drow you just killed has your boot size? And what is the penalty for badly sized boots? In an evil campaign you could kill creatures deliberately for their footwear, but its a little tacky. And how would you resize boots anyway?

    Addit: discussions about 'its magic, deal with it' never seem particularly helpful.
    Last edited by Rainbownaga; 2012-09-27 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    And how would you resize boots anyway?
    Depends on what dimension of it is mis-sized.. and a bit on how durable/resistant to change you think a particular magic material is, I guess. If it's just width, you can stitch in new material or just stretch it out a bit.. Leather is pretty flexible, and you can reshape it fairly permanently if you can soak it and then let it dry around a form of the new shape it needs to be (preferably not the intended wearer's actual foot, because that's just begging for Fort saves against interesting diseases and skin conditions.) If the foot length is wrong, that's a bigger problem.. I suppose you could cut the toe/heel section out and either just leave it open or put an extended one on, possibly with a Spellcraft/relevant Know/Craft check to ensure that the modifications you make don't interfere with the magic.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-09-29 at 09:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    I'm fairly sure this has little to do with occupation; I'm a computer programmer, and I personally have no problem with most magic items resizing on their own. It's just not worth it to me to figure out a more detailed explanation for how and when and why they resize; I'd prefer to just get on with it already.

    Mind you, it's not even that I love unrealistic fantasy either: I enjoy pondering how a science could be constructed from the energy flows that cause what uneducated commoners call "magic", for example.

    In the case of magic items resizing, though, the whole process of creating them is too abstract (in my opinion) for it to be worthwhile to detail one particular aspect so much more thoroughly, and there's not necessarily a whole lot of obviously interesting things that that would affect: all it would mean is some PCs semi-randomly don't get to use some loot. What does it add? What intriguing implications does it have? I have trouble thinking of any.

    If you can, good for you; if you can't avoid trying to figure out every last nitpicky little bit, I feel for you.

    OK, maybe I was wrong at the beginning; perhaps my occupation does have something to do with this, in being able to cleanly cut off my inquisitiveness once it reaches far enough down into abstractions. I dunno. (It's a useful skill, and I recommend it.)

    TL/DR: It doesn't make perfect sense, but nothing does, and this arguably makes "enough" sense for many people to just accept it and go on.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-09-30 at 07:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    I'm fairly sure this has little to do with occupation; I'm a computer programmer, and I personally have no problem with most magic items resizing on their own. It's just not worth it to me to figure out a more detailed explanation for how and when and why they resize; I'd prefer to just get on with it already.

    Mind you, it's not even that I love unrealistic fantasy either: I enjoy pondering how a science could be constructed from the energy flows that cause what uneducated commoners call "magic", for example.

    In the case of magic items resizing, though, the whole process of creating them is too abstract (in my opinion) for it to be worthwhile to detail one particular aspect so much more thoroughly, and there's not necessarily a whole lot of obviously interesting things that that would affect: all it would mean is some PCs semi-randomly don't get to use some loot. What does it add? What intriguing implications does it have? I have trouble thinking of any.

    If you can, good for you; if you can't avoid trying to figure out every last nitpicky little bit, I feel for you.

    OK, maybe I was wrong at the beginning; perhaps my occupation does have something to do with this, in being able to cleanly cut off my inquisitiveness once it reaches far enough down into abstractions. I dunno. (It's a useful skill, and I recommend it.)

    TL/DR: It doesn't make perfect sense, but nothing does, and this arguably makes "enough" sense for many people to just accept it and go on.
    And See "Person who shall still remain nameless" this is a great statement for having the auto resize. And I appreciate having both a for and against

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    I'm an engineer (almost) and I don't have a problem with it either. And it isn't really nice to consistently insinuate that people who don't agree with you are lacking in intelligence or are childish in any way. D&D does not support realism in most cases; there are a multitude of topics explaining how standard physics, chemical properties, and economics simply don't work when applied to a game, especially this one. Bottom line, there are already a number of physics errors, and the DM not writing a manifesto on how magic works is not going to make it any worse or create any more. If your players are all hitched up to have a mostly realistic but still somehow magic fantasy adventure, that's fine. But please don't tell people that they are somehow lacking common sense by wanting to keep things simple and, well, magic.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    The fact that the DMG explicitly has RAW for this instance is enough for me.

    DMG - 'Rings auto resize, size should not be an issue'

    ME - 'I never even bothered to consider that, but okay'
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    I would sidestep the whole question of should things resize automatically or not. This is the OPs' game, this is the way the players like it. Lets try to answer the actual question, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    It raised the question could a craftsmen or even a PC with enough ranks in the correct craft resize magical rings, hem in cloaks, shirts, and the like, and even recycle boots and keep thier magical properties. Or would the act of cutting out part of the object constitute destroying it's magical properties.
    I would argue that anyone that can make the ring/ boots/ other article that depends on size could reasonably change the size to fit other characters. So i'd say you need the item creation feat to do so. How much should this cost? not sure, but I'd hazard it's not too much... up to 1/20- 1/10 of the original price? I think that would be a fair exchange. for being able to now using the desired item.

    Or you can make a low level spell (0-1st level I'll assume) that can be used for this purpose that characters might take in a wand- instant duration, changes one size category or such? an investment in such a wand could be a wise thing.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Kol Korran; 2012-09-28 at 01:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear.
    The sizing property allows an item to fit an entirely different category. It's the difference between armor for a human and armor for a giant or a pixie; if the change in size is not at least 100% or so, you don't need the property.

    If auto-resizing bothers you from a suspension-of-disbelief perspective, you could get rid of it; if you custom-pick treasures for your players, just don't give them any inappropriately-sized items unless they're intended only as saleable / tradeable money. (If you roll items instead, it's more acceptible for them to get some things that aren't right, though you should definitely check your dice if it becomes too consistent a pattern.) Anything that you want them to use should be right-sized, or else you're just playing keep-away: "Look, this treasure is perfect for you OH NO IT SNOT HAHA TROLLED".

    Letting everything resize is just a way to help your players have fun; if it's not working then change it, but don't get too hung up on making your game realistic UNLESS your crowd wants it that way. Entertaining your players is more important than creating some dramatic masterpiece with your flavor text; save the so-realistic-it-leaps-off-the-page writing for an actual page (whether book or web), not a table which has players who don't want to be randomly disappointed.

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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Ok, I read not every line that was written here but I got the point that RAW is not really in question.

    If you still use the rule that armor and such things need to be made +1 first before any special abilities then say that the sizing for jewelery and boots and such is of the same use as the +1 for weapons and armors. As such every magic ring IS made with the ability to resize to its new owner. The same goes for necklaces, shirts, shorts, cloaks, boots etc.

    This is at least a sane way to give your player the benefits of the ring along with a still quite stupid but reasonable explanation.

    Hope this helps. Good luck.
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    Default Re: Ring, boots, and cloak problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Pippin View Post
    Not to disreguard your statement but I tried using that as a statement and all of my players nearly exploded, "Armor and weapons don't also resize excetre egnosium, blah blah, Even the weapon property sizing is a testiment to the need for appropriately sized gear. It really strains believablity to think every ring, boot, shirt, and cloak auto sizes to its new owners. More to the direct campaign you would think that it would have to be some certain additive to allow that property and any egotistical megalomaniac would never add that to his creations because he just knows he cant be beaten and that no one will ever be able to take his gear

    Very Powerful Items like the One Ring would be large and by exceptions because they are so incredibly powerful that resizing would be the smallest of its powers but I don't think every ring should auto size.

    If a very low level ring were to be found and the party new it was made of a metal that could be worth more than the enchanted ring's worth what would stop an huge+character from taking and smelting the ring. It auto sized to him when he took it so how its 3-4 times its normal size and therefore 3-4 times as much vaulable material in the ring. That makes all precious metals worthless because any level of enchantment can then stretch and essensially just create these precious metals
    The correct response to the player is, "Well, this one resized itself to you when you picked it up. Fancy that! I wonder what other magical properties it has?"

    Magic items should be things of wonder, not numbers on a spreadsheet.
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