A challenge to the playground

[Harry]

ThiagoMartell.....I think you won.......CONGRATULATIONS!!!! ONE CREATURE DOWN ONE TO GO!

[Harry]

Nevermind...... I just remembered the mortiverse you was allowed level 100 gestalt. Its level 20 vs The seraphim. Sorry if I sound confusing busy while typing.

[ThiagoMartell]

Nevermind...... I just remembered the mortiverse you was allowed level 100 gestalt. Its level 20 vs The seraphim. Sorry if I sound confusing busy while typing.

Factotum 20 with dusk giant shenanigans and Dark Chaos shuffle does the same thing.

EDIT: In fact, with dusk giant shenanigans + DCFS + consumptive field I think this can be done by level 7.

[Harry]

Concrats Again!

[Battleship789]

Huh from what I see the only problem with your plan is they also have a week (with knowledge of you) of preparation.

They could in theory do anything from that Simulacrum trick posted earlier, to a trick similar to yours.

Well, there is changing the build to have 9ths in both psionics and arcane (using dual advancing PrCs and I believe the Dusk Giant trick would still be feasible). With that, the build could fire off the Time Regression power and get "save states" so that the character knows exactly what the beings are doing/have done to prepare, and the character can act accordingly. (Though this starts getting rather...interesting.)

Something like this could play out:

Round 1 (Assuming the character goes first or goes second and survives.): Survey the situation/fire off combo (via quickened epic spell) and then use Time Regression (if combo doesn't work/situation looks unfavorable).

Round 0: Fire off combo already listed/adapt combo to current situation (a new Epic spell can be created instantaneously and for free [both XP and gold] by reducing the Spellcraft DC to 0, so any situation that can be solved with epic magic can be done during this round.)

I'm not sure if this actually allows one to win outright, but it does allow a lot of options.

[Harry]

There's still one thing then that we haven't beaten.......

[ThiagoMartell]

There's still one thing then that we haven't beaten.......

Why can't the combo beat the mortiverse? Infinite damage with permanent duration, coming from the Divination school.

[Harry]

Abrogate. It destroys your strongest ability, then the ability that makes all its effects double (forgot its name) so your two strongest abilities are destroyed.

[ThiagoMartell]

Abrogate. It destroys your strongest ability, then the ability that makes all its effects double (forgot its name) so your two strongest abilities are destroyed.

Fine. So I get that in a scroll.
EDIT: As in, I use Time Regression, get a scroll (any magic item works - let's say, a wondrous item that casts it at-will) and wish for it. I could stop by my demiplane to craft it without wish and the Teleport Through Time as well.

Actually... define "ability". That's too broad. Anyway, with dusk giant allowing me to get infinite HD and epic spellcasting, those two are my 'strongest abilities', I'd think.

So... yeah. bye bye Mortiverse.

[Harry]

And the innocence ability makes it always attack first. No matter what.

[ThiagoMartell]

And the innocence ability makes it always attack first. No matter what.

Celerity. It attacks first, but I interrupt the attack with my spell, and the spell grants me a full round, and my full round is arbitrarily long thanks to Factotum.
I'm also immune to death.

[Harry]

Sure your strongest ability is spell casting not epic just spell casting in general.

Oh and Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

the 818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn also have abrogate and they can summon your strongest enemy (the original) so double that number. Oh and the mime ability gives them your 2 current strongest abilities each.

[Harry]

It's not celerity. You are compelled to no matter what not attack it first.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sure your strongest ability is spell casting not epic just spell casting in general.

So I just craft items to use those spells. No biggie.
Also, epic spellcasting is explicitly a separate ability from spellcasting.

Oh and Generate Spawn (Su):

Infinite targets.

the 818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn also have abrogate and they can summon your strongest enemy (the original) so double that number. Oh and the mime ability gives them your to current strongest ability each.

Doesn't matter, they don't have my items, do they? And since I lost my abilities, all my spells come from my items. Or I could just use a spell with a Dispel seed to get my abilities back. Pick either option.

It's not celerity. You are compelled to no matter what not attack it first.

You don't understand. I allow it to attack first. Then, as an immediate action, I cast Celerity. I just interrupted it. Even if it does attack first, I am immune to death, so it does not matter. Between Time Regression, my demiplane and Teleport Through Time I can even try this as many times as I want.
Abrogate is a stupid 3rd party ability, but not even this works against a time traveling artificer, mate.

[Harry]

Since you have all your abilities abrogated and mimed how exactly will you beat this many versions of yourself+?

[ThiagoMartell]

Since you have all your abilities abrogated and mimed how exactly will you beat this many versions of yourself+?

You just keep saying 'abrogate', but what the hell does that even do? Doesn't it require an action to use (if it does, Celerity counters)? If it's a passive effect such as an aura, I use Craft Contingent Spell with a Dispel seed to remove it's effects, so I get my abilities back (at least for a single action) and a single action is all I need.

EDIT: Yeah, from what I gather, Abrogate is open ended and silly. But you have to be within range of the aura for it to work. So I cast my spell from my demiplane, since it has infinite range, and then I win. Also, the default for supernatural abilities is that it takes a standard action to activate. Since it never says otherwise, Abrogate takes a standard action. Therefore, even if it is somehow triggered, I just cast Celerity and interrupt that action.

[Ketiara]

The thing is, that golem was noticeably weak. For its challenge rating of course.

But, I'll bite. Sorta.
My character is whatever combination of Wizard, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge gets me epic spells on both sides. If I have levels left, they are some Tome of Battle classes for those rare times when it is not worth it to spend a spell. Unless I have enough levels to grab epic psionics too, then I do that instead.

Note that I don't actually know the epic spells rules, so if somebody could be so nice as to quantify the following spells and confirm that this is possible, I'd be very grateful.
My first epic spell gives me an epic bonus to spellcraft. No drawbacks, no backslash, no help required, does not take an action, lasts 24 hours, and it gives the highest bonus that it can give while having the spellcraft DC be something I can hit by taking 10. It lasts all day so I'm doing it out of battle.
The second spell is the same, but the bonus is as high as I can hit while under the effect of the one above. Let's pretend I'm being reasonable and that the bonuses overlap, not stack, though I'm pretty sure there is a way to not do this.
Do the same for each spell until I have only 3 epic spells slots left. If I have manifesting, one of them has to move to psycraft OR the chain starts with psycraft, depending on which side is best for:
My last three spells are "kill something". No save, no resistance, no immunities, no defenses, can't be revived, can't planeshift back from wherever it ended, can't planeshift me to wherever it ended, etc etc etc. They are also nonactions without drawbacks. Also can be targeted remotely I guess, since we were assuming I know about these guys. If I somehow still don't have enough spellcraft to pull this spell off, sprinkle skill-boosting cheese to taste.
So, at some point during the day I take an instant to will myself to be able to will myself to be able to will myself to [...] be able to will those guys dead, and then I will those guys dead.
That burns my epic spells for the day, so I guess I take the rest of the day off.

well you deserve a break after tearing apart the fabric of the universe :D

[Aharon]

Why don't we pun-pun against these things, again? They are stupidly arbitrarily strong.

Use ay of the most powerful cheese, and they can be beaten:

Pun-Pun, The Savant Priest, Infinite Wish Loop, The 1d2 Crusader,
Infinite Caster Level, Low On Cash?, Bestow Power, Behold!,
The Perpetual Damage Machine, Attack of The Clones. The Nasty Gentlemen, The Twice Betrayer of Shar, The Nanobots Cometh, The Cheewrought Instabold, Cooking with Gas, Infinite Arcane Spells, The Beast, Emancipated Spawn, The H.I.V.E., Legion, Save Game Mechanic.

Mix and match for best results.

These monsters clearly aren't made to be beaten by any normal characters, so you have to resort to cheese of some kind - PO doesn't cut it.

[Bit Fiend]

Oh Lord, you really whipped out the Mortiverse? That thing lacks any form of style whatsoever. It was created by just stacking the most ridiculous templates from the most ridiculous third party book in existence. Basically it's literally the biggest God Mode Sue in history. Personally I would never touch anything created with the Immortal's Handbook with the maximum length of the Jingu Staff since it's all about having the biggest... let's say statblock, but tastes vary I guess. Just allow Pun-Pun against that thing, he'll end it in an instant with his arbitrarily high divine rank. At least Pun-Pun was created by pure 1st party RAW with methods theoretically available to any PC.

[Flickerdart]

Knight 20. Ex immunity to death.

Only to HP damage. They can still kill you any other number of juicy ways without ever touching your HP.

[ThiagoMartell]

Only to HP damage. They can still kill you any other number of juicy ways without ever touching your HP.

Irrelevant if you've seen the rest of the thing.

[Flickerdart]

Irrelevant if you've seen the rest of the thing.

Your thing assumes that they don't have any way of getting around your Celerity, which is not going to be the case if they know you're coming a week in advance. Including knowing that you travelled back in time, because that's how foreknowledge works. It wouldn't be foreknowledge if doing something different made it change. One week before you arrive back in time, the angels know you do.

[Arcanist]

Your thing assumes that they don't have any way of getting around your Celerity, which is not going to be the case if they know you're coming a week in advance. Including knowing that you travelled back in time, because that's how foreknowledge works. It wouldn't be foreknowledge if doing something different made it change. One week before you arrive back in time, the angels know you do.

Odin has foreknowledge of how all the God's are going to die and he can't do jack diddly about it. Sometimes things are going to happen and you just won't be able to stop them... You can try of course, but thats the thing about being helpless to stop it... You can't... Unless of course you wanna be a jerk and do the exact same thing that they're going to do a week in advance... but that is just plain hilarious and I encourage you to do it!

Ah well... some people are just stubborn to the inevitable...

[Flickerdart]

I'm not saying they would stop him from teleporting back in time. I'm saying that they will have had a week to prepare before that happens.

[Spuddles]

This thing would be easier to read if you just wrote +infinity to everything instead of typing out stupid big numbers for every stat.

But anywho: You've got epic spellcasting available at a crazy high level. You can spend a few months making ice assassins of yourself and using them all to fuel a ritual strong enough to end the entire multiverse.

There is a qualitative difference between a large number and an infinte one. As far as I am aware, no dnd build other than something involving manipulate form has a truly infinite anything. They just have access to an arbitrarily large number of actions or damage.

For instance, if this thing really had infinite hp, then a d2 crusader couldn't kill it. Otherwise, if it just has an arbitrarily large amount of HP, then you just do an arbitrarily larger amount.

[Spuddles]

What's the time trait of the far realm? Isn't something like no time passes relative to the prime?

If you're a kaorti in a planar bubble, does that mean an arbitrary number of actions? Is that persistent time stop without the drawbacks?

[ThiagoMartell]

Your thing assumes that they don't have any way of getting around your Celerity, which is not going to be the case if they know you're coming a week in advance. Including knowing that you travelled back in time, because that's how foreknowledge works. It wouldn't be foreknowledge if doing something different made it change. One week before you arrive back in time, the angels know you do.

Would the vecna blooded template avoid that?

[olentu]

Would the vecna blooded template avoid that?

I don't think so. As I recall vecna blooded only blocks divination spells which portfolio sense is not, if I recall correctly.

[rweird]

Get DvR 20+ from Ice Assassins, create an Ice Assassin Wish Shapechange Wish/Autopass UMD to Ice Assassin Mortiverse, Make an Alex of the Ice Assassin, Make Ice Assassins of the Alex, use the ice assassin trick to give the Alexs DvR 20+, do infinite damage to Mortiverse, autopass save from divine rank, win, or have the final Ice Assassins use Alter Reality to dark chaos shuffle or something of the like to retrain a feat to epic spellcasting, they now have +∞ on spellcraft checks, they can destroy him no-save. This could be done at level 17, no gesalt required (Wizard 17 w/ shapechange, you probably can get shapechange earlier). It'd need something like nine hours to do it tops.

The same could be done to the first challenge excepts that they have shapechange at will and could do the same thing, though they have four actions each every round and can match you in every way like that. I personally thing the first challenge is much harder due to them being played smart, though assuming Mortiverse has the same time to prepare as we do, we couldn't beat him either.

[kardar233]

There is a qualitative difference between a large number and an infinte one. As far as I am aware, no dnd build other than something involving manipulate form has a truly infinite anything. They just have access to an arbitrarily large number of actions or damage.

For instance, if this thing really had infinite hp, then a d2 crusader couldn't kill it. Otherwise, if it just has an arbitrarily large amount of HP, then you just do an arbitrarily larger amount.

You are incorrect. The d2 Crusader does, in fact deal an infinite amount of damage, as the loop happens all at once (when damage is calculated). Lightning Maces are similar.

A loop such as GAF/Sanctum Spell is only arbitrarily high.