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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Without thinking of any specific sources, I'd say the defining traits of vampires being drinking blood, turning the living into vampires, and being killed by sunlight or a stake in the heart.
    Also hating garlic, but that's such a minor thing that I wouldn't call it defining, just very common.
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    I always thought the Ringworld vampires were an interesting spin on Vampirism. It's been a while since I've read it, but I recall them as having a hypnotic song/scent type thing that made anyone that heard/smelled it want to rish. That's how they'd catch their prey - with their pants down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    bram stoker style vamps ARE the baseline.
    Hammer/Universal Pictures or Anne Rice vampires are way closer to being the baseline. Mainly due to people not actually reading (just about) Victorian novels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Without thinking of any specific sources, I'd say the defining traits of vampires being drinking blood, turning the living into vampires, and being killed by sunlight or a stake in the heart.
    Also hating garlic, but that's such a minor thing that I wouldn't call it defining, just very common.
    I'd say Vampires that feed off Life-Force itself and other spins are common enough that I wouldn't personally limit it to blood as such.
    Undead creatures that feed parasitically on the Living and usually have strong thematic link to the Night. Sunlight, Stakes to the heart etc are less important. Garlic is rarely anything more than a gag.

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    As Terry Pratchett said, "There are as many types of vampire as there are disease; some are virulent and deadly, and some just make you walk funny and avoid fruit."

    The vampire changes most depending on what story you want to tell. Romance tends towards the tragic figure cursed by awesome who represents danger, lust, and uncanny charisma -- their weakness and strengths are less central than their character development. Action vampires usually enter the realm of the grotesque in appearance and monstrous in character -- their strengths and weaknesses are obviously more significant seeing as they'll be your mobs for that evening. Then there's Gothic Horror which incorporates the two to create a better class of monster.

    Oddly enough, Dresden has one "Court" for each of 'em.

    The only issue I have is with internal consistency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    As Terry Pratchett said, "There are as many types of vampire as there are disease; some are virulent and deadly, and some just make you walk funny and avoid fruit."

    The vampire changes most depending on what story you want to tell. Romance tends towards the tragic figure cursed by awesome who represents danger, lust, and uncanny charisma -- their weakness and strengths are less central than their character development. Action vampires usually enter the realm of the grotesque in appearance and monstrous in character -- their strengths and weaknesses are obviously more significant seeing as they'll be your mobs for that evening. Then there's Gothic Horror which incorporates the two to create a better class of monster.

    Oddly enough, Dresden has one "Court" for each of 'em.

    The only issue I have is with internal consistency.
    Mercedes Lackey writes a small series of magical detective novels, where the main character, Diane Tregarde, (I think thats the name) is a wiccan detective who has a vampire lover. The thing is, she actually includes the vampire lore from a number of sources. Her lover actually feeds off of sexual energy instead of blood. They also cover other vamp strains that feed off of emotions, perfume, music, or devours a persons soul. I like it, that way the author can include all the cultural vampire versions without contradicting things because they are pretty much all real, just regional versions of vampires.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    WARNING: huge megapost ahead that deals mainly with clearing up some misconceptions about the dresden files. Should I spoiler it?

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    <snip>
    Dresden Files has a pretty screwy vampire situation from what I hear. Supposedly the Red Court are actually these giant bat monsters who wear human skin as a disguise? And the White Court drink emotions instead of blood, but somehow this still kills people? I don't get it.
    The red court is inspired by the mayan bat god Camazotz (you can see the same type of thing in the movie “dusk till dawn”):

    In Maya mythology, Camazotz (alternate spellings Cama-Zotz, Sotz, Zotz) was a bat god. Camazotz means "death bat" in the K'iche' language. In Mesoamerica the bat was associated with night, death, and sacrifice.

    Camazotz is formed from the K'iche' words kame, meaning "death", and sotz', meaning "bat".

    In the Popol Vuh, Camazotz are the bat-like monsters encountered by the Maya Hero Twins Hunahpu and Xbalanque during their trials in the underworld of Xibalba. The twins had to spend the night in the House of Bats where they squeeze themselves into their own blowguns in order to defend themselves from the circling bats. Hunahpu stuck his head out of his blowgun to see if the sun had risen and Camazotz immediately snatched off his head and carried it to the ballcourt to be hung up as the ball to be used by the gods in their next ballgame.

    The white court are inspired by the anne rice “seducer” vampire. When they drain emotion they are actually draining life force as well (which is why they can kill their prey).

    The more you know…

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayonet Priest View Post
    I think Dresden Files does vampires pretty well. There are several different groups of them but all of them are essentially humans possessed by a different type of demon.
    <snip>
    There is also a Jade Court but we don't really know anything about them yet. Supposedly they will be making an appearance eventually.

    It's basically a kitchen sink way of including all sorts of different depictions of vampires into one setting. Personally I think it works very well. One thing it never forgets though is that they are monsters, even the sexy ones are Monsters with a capital M.
    You are actually wrong about the demon part. Were did you get that idea from? Nothing we have seen in the DF verse indicates that any of the vampires have anything to do with demons. I suppose you could make an argument for the White court since they have a spirit of Hunger inside them and big nasties from the nevernever are often referred to as demons but that’s the only court I can think of. Plus white court vamps aren’t “possessed” by their Hunger. Most of the time they are in full control of it and only give in when they draw on their power too much.

    Interestingly there are actually 7 vampire courts but the ones that I didn't mention are little more than mosquitos (in terms of general influence, not personal power).

    You are a little wrong on the "sexy ones are still capital M monsters". A huge part of the DF universe centers around Free Will. The white court vampires actually still have free will and they keep their souls (unlike the other courts) except when they draw on their Hunger too much. This is why Thomas can try to be a good guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkblade View Post
    That gets confusing sometimes but Dresden Files' Hell is pretty much just Fallen Angels. Demons are just evil or non-sentient and hungry monsters.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    No, Hell in the Dresdenverse does have Demons.

    Hell = Demons and Fallen Angels. Remember Chauncy the informant demon?

    Nevernever = Fae, Spirits and occasionally Ghosts (either of which can be more powerful than demons).

    Outside = Outsiders (duh).

    Any of which can be equally malevolent, though the only place you're likely to find something genuinely benevolent (to some degree) is the Nevernever.
    As I mentioned in the earlier post, demons can mean both "generic nasty from the nevernever (the spirit world) or an actual demon from hell.

    Don't forget Gods and their servants in your list either.

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Going back to the Dresden Files and derailing a bit, the White Court feeds on emotions, but why only those three emotions? Lust, fear, and despair? Why not anger, or happiness, or sadness, or jealousy? As best I can figure, them being motivated to "farm" only those three emotions seems to be solely designed as a way to enforce the "noir" genre.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    <snip>
    Given Madrigal its seems that the bounds are more traditional and/or personal.

    I suspect though they'd only feed on "dark" emotions since what they do is dark. Also point out that fear, despair, and lust do a lot to paralyze the prey. Arousing anger would probably get a White Court beat up. And doubtful the underlying philosophy of the Dresdenverse lets them cause happiness.

    Which can be seen to enforce the noir end, but I think how Butcher clearly strives to play with greys but makes it clear black and whites are still out there is worth mentioning... and in the end more important.


    Is completely true and confirmed by Word of God( though there was a WoG that a White Court vampire could "feed on the warm happy feeling that people get when they’re holding a puppy". That may have just been a joke though).

    It has also been confirmed by WoG that the White court can "mix it up" but you start to have this "you are what you eat effect". This is probably why the Raiths (the lust feeders of the White Court) see the Skavis and Malvora (depair and fear feeders respectively) as degenerate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlec View Post
    They're referred to as a species of vampire, but it's clear the White Court are actually succubi. They try to keep their theme.

    The Black and Red Courts are Stoker vampires and Anne Rice vampires (with a monstrous twist) respectively.

    One interpretation of vampire that's pretty curious is that of D&D, with vampires being powered by the negative energy plane.
    The different "classifications" of supernatural predators are somewhat fluid in the DF verse. I actually made a thread asking what qualified a group of supernatural predators to be called a vampire court here. I highly suggest you check it out as I think it was very enlightening.

    The Black Court are actually stoker vamps and and the classical "rotting monsters that rise from the grave" vamps that were around way before stoker wrote his book. The Red Court on the other hand are inspired by Camazotz (see above post for details). I'd say the White Court was way more influenced by Anne Rice vampires than the RC vampires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    As Terry Pratchett said, "There are as many types of vampire as there are disease; some are virulent and deadly, and some just make you walk funny and avoid fruit."

    The vampire changes most depending on what story you want to tell. Romance tends towards the tragic figure cursed by awesome who represents danger, lust, and uncanny charisma -- their weakness and strengths are less central than their character development. Action vampires usually enter the realm of the grotesque in appearance and monstrous in character -- their strengths and weaknesses are obviously more significant seeing as they'll be your mobs for that evening. Then there's Gothic Horror which incorporates the two to create a better class of monster.

    Oddly enough, Dresden has one "Court" for each of 'em.

    The only issue I have is with internal consistency.
    Vampire stories have evolved in ways that parralel superhero stories, when you think about it. One of the reasons why Superman was so popular in the 30's and 40's, for instance, was simple wish fulfillment. If getting scarred, paralyzed or permanently injured by diseases like polio, or shot to death and blown up in Europe and the Pacific is an everyday part of your lived reality, who wouldn't want to imagine themselves as having super-healing and bulletproof skin? But once those worries go away and are replaced by the more mundane angsts of adolescence, Superman gets replaced in popularity with a more angsty, brooding Batman.

    Similarly, vampire myths used to emphasize disease, rot and the corruption of the soul. In a time when plague, cholera and smallpox are very real immediate threats, and one of the great solaces is the prospect of a disease and war-free afterlife, it's pretty natural to fear that you could be attacked by a dead body that would drain and waste you before damning your soul and reanimating your body in the process. It's perfectly in keeping with the traditional association between disease and God's wrath. But as those fears have receded from our everyday worries, our vampires have changed along with them.

    Back on the OT, though, I find the Buffyverse vampires annoying, largely because Whedon keeps trying to play up the dangers of vampires when all they really are in his universe are generic mooks. Given the absurd levels of chaotic stupid seen by those vampires, there really shouldn't have been any vamps more than a week old in the Buffyverse. And why the heck does dying give you a yellow belt in kung fu?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    You are actually wrong about the demon part. Were did you get that idea from? Nothing we have seen in the DF verse indicates that any of the vampires have anything to do with demons. I suppose you could make an argument for the White court since they have a spirit of Hunger inside them and big nasties from the nevernever are often referred to as demons but that’s the only court I can think of. Plus white court vamps aren’t “possessed” by their Hunger. Most of the time they are in full control of it and only give in when they draw on their power too much.
    IIRC Thomas refers to [the vampire supernatural side of himself] as a demon. So does Harry. But, again IIRC, it is specifically mentioned that it has nothing to do with Hell/Fallen Angel demons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    <snip>
    You are actually wrong about the demon part. Were did you get that idea from? Nothing we have seen in the DF verse indicates that any of the vampires have anything to do with demons. I suppose you could make an argument for the White court since they have a spirit of Hunger inside them and big nasties from the nevernever are often referred to as demons but that’s the only court I can think of.
    <snip>
    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    IIRC Thomas refers to [the vampire supernatural side of himself] as a demon. So does Harry. But, again IIRC, it is specifically mentioned that it has nothing to do with Hell/Fallen Angel demons.
    I'm not sure you need to remember considering basically all of what you just posted was said in the part of my post that you quoted .

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    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Similarly, vampire myths used to emphasize disease, rot and the corruption of the soul. In a time when plague, cholera and smallpox are very real immediate threats, and one of the great solaces is the prospect of a disease and war-free afterlife, it's pretty natural to fear that you could be attacked by a dead body that would drain and waste you before damning your soul and reanimating your body in the process. It's perfectly in keeping with the traditional association between disease and God's wrath. But as those fears have receded from our everyday worries, our vampires have changed along with them.
    That and the fears of sexual violation and corruption of the innocent. The idea of being penetrated or absorbed by an alluring and predatory demon was a pretty popular and widespread fear, evidently. Given the number of myths which represent this theme in various cultures.

    The fact that the popular folklore of numerous cultures connect violence, disease, sex, death, and evil into a single monstrous figure is unsurprising I suppose. But with the sexual revolution, the Victorian sentiments about sex have become somewhat antiquated, and relatively easy for writers to use them for the purposes of titillation rather than moralizing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    That and the fears of sexual violation and corruption of the innocent. The idea of being penetrated or absorbed by an alluring and predatory demon was a pretty popular and widespread fear, evidently. Given the number of myths which represent this theme in various cultures.

    The fact that the popular folklore of numerous cultures connect violence, disease, sex, death, and evil into a single monstrous figure is unsurprising I suppose. But with the sexual revolution, the Victorian sentiments about sex have become somewhat antiquated, and relatively easy for writers to use them for the purposes of titillation rather than moralizing.
    Actually, that's something that came later. Until Bela Legosi's interpretation of Dracula, I can't really recall anyone associating vampires directly with sex, for the same reason they didn't associate the story of Billy Goat Gruff with sex. Namely that it's sex with a dead, rotting corpse, and therefore a desecration of oneself and the dead of the highest order in every religion I'm familiar with. Forget the fact that it's evil incarnate and also trying to kill you; sex with the dead is one of the few sexual perversions that is as universally abhorrent as sex with prepubescent children and sex with animals.

    One of the things that's both extremely interesting, and incredibly important to remember about myths is that their meanings change to fit the times. But the corrolary is that the myths of the past and the myths of the present are very different, even if they're ostensibly the same stories. Ghost stories now and ghost stories 300 years ago, for instance, are completely different because our conception of ghosts and their conception of ghosts are completely different. Prior to the Romantic era, ghosts were just evil spirits that inhabited a place. Now, they're souls that got lost and didn't cross over. The idea that someone would think to research a haunted house's history to search for incidents of violence or suicide wouldn't make sense in a ghost story 300 years ago, because that's not what ghosts were. Similarly, the idea that vampires are metaphors for the dangers of seduction and sex wouldn't make sense, because that's not what vampires were. That shift is entirely a post-Romantic, and more specifically a post-Hollywood addition to the vampire myth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Actually, that's something that came later. Until Bela Legosi's interpretation of Dracula, I can't really recall anyone associating vampires directly with sex, for the same reason they didn't associate the story of Billy Goat Gruff with sex. Namely that it's sex with a dead, rotting corpse, and therefore a desecration of oneself and the dead of the highest order in every religion I'm familiar with. Forget the fact that it's evil incarnate and also trying to kill you; sex with the dead is one of the few sexual perversions that is as universally abhorrent as sex with prepubescent children and sex with animals.

    One of the things that's both extremely interesting, and incredibly important to remember about myths is that their meanings change to fit the times. But the corrolary is that the myths of the past and the myths of the present are very different, even if they're ostensibly the same stories. Ghost stories now and ghost stories 300 years ago, for instance, are completely different because our conception of ghosts and their conception of ghosts are completely different. Prior to the Romantic era, ghosts were just evil spirits that inhabited a place. Now, they're souls that got lost and didn't cross over. The idea that someone would think to research a haunted house's history to search for incidents of violence or suicide wouldn't make sense in a ghost story 300 years ago, because that's not what ghosts were. Similarly, the idea that vampires are metaphors for the dangers of seduction and sex wouldn't make sense, because that's not what vampires were. That shift is entirely a post-Romantic, and more specifically a post-Hollywood addition to the vampire myth.
    It would depend upon your definition of vampire, erotic demons with the capacity to drain life exists in Eastern and Western folklore for some time now.

    Though more generally, it's not literal sexual intercourse I'm referring to. The figurative projection of the act of penetration and absorption are entrenched pretty hard. Of the unwanted and violent kind, naturally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    I'm not sure you need to remember considering basically all of what you just posted was said in the part of my post that you quoted .
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    The red court is inspired by the mayan bat god Camazotz (you can see the same type of thing in the movie “dusk till dawn”):
    Ah! Thanks for pointing that out, it all makes sense now.

    The white court are inspired by the anne rice “seducer” vampire. When they drain emotion they are actually draining life force as well (which is why they can kill their prey).
    Meh, this is handwavey and a bit cheap IMO, tying back into me thinking they exist to enforce Noir by randomly making life suck in the setting universe...it works if you're into that sort of thing which I'm really not. If I were writing them, I'd either make the White Court physically-harmless parasites (though still manipulative jerks who destroy lives on a whim), or I'd say that they kill the victim by dessicating them or something. Lifeforce or soul or whatever doesn't really impress me as something that you can kill a person by taking away, given that it is at most tenuously detectable in them in the first place.

    You are actually wrong about the demon part. Were did you get that idea from? Nothing we have seen in the DF verse indicates that any of the vampires have anything to do with demons.
    It was in the Wikipedia article, I claim zero responsibility. It might also have been in the TV series, which I have watched, while the books I have not read.

    Interestingly there are actually 7 vampire courts but the ones that I didn't mention are little more than mosquitos (in terms of general influence, not personal power).
    Have they ever given names for the last 3 (after White, Black, Red and "Jade" - argh, I hate it when a series is inconsistent)? Butcher might not want to develop the last three but I sure as heck do.

    It has also been confirmed by WoG that the White court can "mix it up" but you start to have this "you are what you eat effect". This is probably why the Raiths (the lust feeders of the White Court) see the Skavis and Malvora (depair and fear feeders respectively) as degenerate.
    Okay, this I buy totally. Perhaps they destroyed the Happy-Puppy Vampires out of spite to "prove" that only negativity was strong enough to survive? That would definitely be thematically fitting in my settings, where hypocrisy and sour grapes are some of the most defining traits of what I regard as evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    It would depend upon your definition of vampire, erotic demons with the capacity to drain life exists in Eastern and Western folklore for some time now.

    Though more generally, it's not literal sexual intercourse I'm referring to. The figurative projection of the act of penetration and absorption are entrenched pretty hard. Of the unwanted and violent kind, naturally.
    Incubi/Succubi and vampires are completely different in the medieval mind. One is a demon that corrupts the immortal soul of mortals. One is a re-animated dead body, usually of a criminal, blasphemer or especially immoral person, that feeds voraciously on the living. To say they're the same because they have some similar effects on their victims is like saying that humpback whales and Leviathan meant the same thing to medieval sailors because they're both big and live in water.

    The idea that a vampire could be a tragic figure is entirely a 20th century invention. And it wasn't until they started being portrayed as tragic figures that people started seeing them in an erotic light. If you had tried to tell the story of Buffy and Angel to peasants in the Renaissance era, they would have thought you were talking about a lunatic with the morality of a pedophile. They would listen to that story with the horror most people have when they read Lolita.
    Last edited by McStabbington; 2012-10-07 at 11:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Incubi/Succubi and vampires are completely different in the medieval mind. One is a demon that corrupts the immortal soul of mortals. One is a re-animated dead body, usually of a criminal, blasphemer or especially immoral person, that feeds voraciously on the living. To say they're the same because they have some similar effects on their victims is like saying that humpback whales and Leviathan meant the same thing to medieval sailors because they're both big and live in water.
    Heh. Funny you should say that, given that Leviathan is the word used for "Whale" in modern Hebrew.
    Not that you don't have a point. I just felt like being a wiseass.


    Willpell: Lifeforce/soul is actually often a major-ish plot point in the books. Harry gets the power of Soulfire from an Archangel, which gives him the power to burn up his own soul to power magic. And there's more than that, scattered everywhere.


    Edit: Where's the seven courts from? I don't recall ever hearing that in the book. Harry was already quite surprised when Shiro mentioned four courts, since he had never heard of Jade, only the four coloured courts.
    Fun thing about the Jade Court: they feed on memories.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-10-07 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Edit: Where's the seven courts from? I don't recall ever hearing that in the book. Harry was already quite surprised when Shiro mentioned four courts, since he had never heard of Jade, only the four coloured courts.
    Fun thing about the Jade Court: they feed on memories.
    Surely that should be; Didn't remember ever hearing about the Jade Court?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Edit: Where's the seven courts from? I don't recall ever hearing that in the book. Harry was already quite surprised when Shiro mentioned four courts, since he had never heard of Jade, only the four coloured courts.
    Fun thing about the Jade Court: they feed on memories.
    Where did you get them feeding on memories from?

    The only possible quasi-legit source from either of those would be either the RPG or Word of Jim from somewhere. The RPG does more speculation then anything and is not technically canon as far as I know, I remember them speculating Spring and Autumn for potential fairy plot-hooks which isn't saying those actually existed in the Dresdenverse for all the Fomor could be read as supporting it.

    And from the horses mouth... if it was direct or you have something linkable okay but otherwise I've heard enough weird stuff to doubt indirect sources for the Dresdenverse.

    Neither of these is mentioned in books. Jiang Shi (the evident inspiration for the Jade Court) would feed on chi if IIRC in most Chinese mythos, not memories. Not me something I know too much about though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Edit: Where's the seven courts from? I don't recall ever hearing that in the book. Harry was already quite surprised when Shiro mentioned four courts, since he had never heard of Jade, only the three coloured courts.
    Fun thing about the Jade Court: they feed on memories.
    FTFY. Also, the wiki article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Incubi/Succubi and vampires are completely different in the medieval mind. One is a demon that corrupts the immortal soul of mortals. One is a re-animated dead body, usually of a criminal, blasphemer or especially immoral person, that feeds voraciously on the living. To say they're the same because they have some similar effects on their victims is like saying that humpback whales and Leviathan meant the same thing to medieval sailors because they're both big and live in water.

    The idea that a vampire could be a tragic figure is entirely a 20th century invention. And it wasn't until they started being portrayed as tragic figures that people started seeing them in an erotic light. If you had tried to tell the story of Buffy and Angel to peasants in the Renaissance era, they would have thought you were talking about a lunatic with the morality of a pedophile. They would listen to that story with the horror most people have when they read Lolita.
    No, what I'm doing is like comparing Thor to Indra. Two mythological figures -- the vampire and the succubus -- rooted in the same precursors. Lamia, Lilith, Empusa - human eating, blood drinking harlots of Greek myth who come from a still older archetypes in all likelihood. Then, going Eastward to India and South East Asia where the Vampire myth is synonymous with sexual deprivation and female empowerment. The Slavic region was rife with sexualized vampire folklore, both male and female, who were fertile figures partly due to the presumption that the dead were sexual, given that they have erections post-mortem.
    The supernatural harlot and blood drinking corpse were split into different iconography in Western Europe but they carried the same projections of anxiety about sexual violation. Something which was obvious in retrospect to the 20th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Ah! Thanks for pointing that out, it all makes sense now.
    No problem .

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Meh, this is handwavey and a bit cheap IMO, tying back into me thinking they exist to enforce Noir by randomly making life suck in the setting universe...it works if you're into that sort of thing which I'm really not. If I were writing them, I'd either make the White Court physically-harmless parasites (though still manipulative jerks who destroy lives on a whim), or I'd say that they kill the victim by dessicating them or something. Lifeforce or soul or whatever doesn't really impress me as something that you can kill a person by taking away, given that it is at most tenuously detectable in them in the first place.
    Well actually in the DF verse you can detect a soul. Souls and Free Will are a MAJOR part of the setting.

    I don't think the WC feed on souls for reasons I'll elaborate in a below post but the soul is detectable in the DF verse.

    Also, you keep saying "noir". The DF books are barely noir at all (the main character makes star wars references for cryin out loud) though I can see how you might think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    It was in the Wikipedia article, I claim zero responsibility. It might also have been in the TV series, which I have watched, while the books I have not read.
    I was actually responding to Bayonet Priest and not you but while were on the subject do you think you could quote the section? I couldn't find it anywhere in the Wikipedia page.

    Also if you do plan to read the books (Dooo eeet) do not give up after reading books 1 and 2. I see so many people do this and it breaks my heart. The first two books aren't "bad" they are actually good but they do not even touch the amazing that is the later books (keep in mind that this was Jim's first published series). The series starts to pick up by the third book and really gets into swing by book 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Have they ever given names for the last 3 (after White, Black, Red and "Jade" - argh, I hate it when a series is inconsistent)? Butcher might not want to develop the last three but I sure as heck do.
    The african court has been unoffically named the Ivory Court by fans. I see no reason why Jim wouldn't use it.

    Almost no info has been given on any of the other courts. Even the Jade court has very little information given and Jim says they will only show up (if they do at all) in the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy at the end of the series (because they are "very busy not getting involved").

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post

    <snip>
    Willpell: Lifeforce/soul is actually often a major-ish plot point in the books. Harry gets the power of Soulfire from an Archangel, which gives him the power to burn up his own soul to power magic. And there's more than that, scattered everywhere.
    I actually don't think lifeforce and soul are the same thing. In Ghost Story it's implied that losing your soul is a really big deal and I think Jim would have let us know if the WC were freaking soul eaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Edit: Where's the seven courts from? I don't recall ever hearing that in the book. Harry was already quite surprised when Shiro mentioned four courts, since he had never heard of Jade, only the four coloured courts.
    Fun thing about the Jade Court: they feed on memories.
    See my reply to Morph Bark.

    And where the heck did you hear about the JC feeding on memories? In all my time reading the books/reading the forums/reading the various Word of Jim's I have never come across this except in a series of fanfiction called the broken series. Perhaps that's where you got it from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    FTFY. Also, the wiki article.
    The wiki (and me) actually got it from the Word of Jim compilation here where it says "Jim mentioned at ConDFW that there were a total of seven courts, but the final three were little more than mosquitoes".

    If you've read most of the books I highly reccomend giving the whole Word of Jim compilation a read through. It is full of great, interesting information.
    Last edited by 123456789blaaa; 2012-10-07 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Where did you get them feeding on memories from?
    Shiro again, since he's the only one who mentions them, off-hand. I think he said that, though I might be mis-remembering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Shiro again, since he's the only one who mentions them, off-hand. I think he said that, though I might be mis-remembering.
    Yeah so help me I wasn't looking for that in particular but I read that book maybe a month back (re-reading) and don't recall it. They are the Jade Court, they are Asian, they are verrry secretive, and they respect the Accords. That's was it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Yeah so help me I wasn't looking for that in particular but I read that book maybe a month back (re-reading) and don't recall it. They are the Jade Court, they are Asian, they are verrry secretive, and they respect the Accords. That's was it.
    Looks like the Jade Court got to you then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Well actually in the DF verse you can detect a soul. Souls and Free Will are a MAJOR part of the setting.
    A mage can maybe, but an average person cannot. And generally I would assume most of the people the WCVs feed on aren't mages.

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Also, you keep saying "noir". The DF books are barely noir at all (the main character makes star wars references for cryin out loud) though I can see how you might think so.
    As I understand the term "noir", the TV Dresden definitely qualifies; it's not all in grayscale or anything, but it's definitely got that hard-boiled-detective, "Life's not a nice place sweet cheeks" kind of gritty-awesome-hopeless-sexy-cynical attitude going on. The first Dresden book was originally titled "Semiautomagic"; that's plenty Noir right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    I was actually responding to Bayonet Priest and not you but while were on the subject do you think you could quote the section? I couldn't find it anywhere in the Wikipedia page.
    The main DF page doesn't have it, it's on List of Dresden Files Organizations. "Their power derives from an internal demonic essence they call the "Hunger" which acts like a battery". I thought the Red Court were also explicitly demons but the use of the phrase "demonic form" in that article is probably just poetic, not taxonomic.

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Also if you do plan to read the books (Dooo eeet) do not give up after reading books 1 and 2.
    I don't have time to read a lot of books, so if those books aren't great perhaps I should just skip them. From what I hear the later books get metaplot-heavy; where would you recommend I jump in to have the best quality as a stand-alone book?

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    The african court has been unoffically named the Ivory Court by fans. I see no reason why Jim wouldn't use it.
    Well it would mean another material besides Jade, but Ivory = White so I find it unsatisfying. I would want there to be a Green Court, a Gold Court, maybe a Gray Court, I dunno maybe Violet for the last one. Blue seems wrong somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Almost no info has been given on any of the other courts.
    Yeah I got that, I'm running with the stuff JB intentionally didn't. IMO there's so much vampire lore that three courts just don't cut it; even 7 courts aren't really enough. Heck I ended up deciding that VTM's 13 clans were insufficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Yeah I got that, I'm running with the stuff JB intentionally didn't. IMO there's so much vampire lore that three courts just don't cut it; even 7 courts aren't really enough. Heck I ended up deciding that VTM's 13 clans were insufficient.
    Does that include the expanded bloodlines and oriental vampires?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    A mage can maybe, but an average person cannot. And generally I would assume most of the people the WCVs feed on aren't mages.
    You've never felt exhausted and emotionally drained before? Incidnetally, Butcher is not the first person to come up with the idea of "psychic vampires" that leave their victims mentally rather than physically drained.

    The main DF page doesn't have it, it's on List of Dresden Files Organizations. "Their power derives from an internal demonic essence they call the "Hunger" which acts like a battery". I thought the Red Court were also explicitly demons but the use of the phrase "demonic form" in that article is probably just poetic, not taxonomic.
    It's poetic. Incidentally, Thomas is the only WCV I can think of who characterizes his "Hunger" as a separate demonic entity. It's entirely possible that it's just a delusion he maintains to seperate himself from the baser needs that he's ashamed of. His bretheren treat their hunger for psychic energy the same way that humans treat their hunger for food, and the average WCV is quite the gourmand.

    I don't have time to read a lot of books, so if those books aren't great perhaps I should just skip them. From what I hear the later books get metaplot-heavy; where would you recommend I jump in to have the best quality as a stand-alone book?
    Grave Peril. That's the first book that involves the larger factions of the setting. Plus, a good chunk of the major supporting characters are either introduced in that book or have their relationships with Harry significantly re-defined in it. Plus, it's a definite step up in quality over the first two books.
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    The books are pretty short and very fast-paced. I usually read a new one over a weekend, with one or two weekday evenings attached.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    I don't like the idea of taking two parts of the mythology (Immortal, drinks blood), mixing in a bunch of random crap (sparkly in sunlight, super speed and strength), taking away all vulnerabilities short of being dismembered or incinerated, and saying "No, still totally counts, see?" Because I'm sorry, it damn well doesn't.
    Nope. I repeat Nope.
    The two parts of mythology are (Immortal, drinks blood, Super Strength, speed), mixing in a tiny bit of crap (sparkly in sunlight).
    You just hate the sunlight thing.

    Almost all vampires are shown in fiction as strong and fast. Blade, Angel, etc does the same thing.
    In short, I dislike Twilight because I just plain don't like it. And I don't like their version of Vampires because I think it's poorly handled. So as much as there are people out there who might abuse the story or the movies just on principle, I'm speaking as a self-admitted horror nerd and buff who gave this a legitimate chance and found it to be just plain awful.
    You can only kill a Twilight vampire by dismembering... this is in the book.

    Now the fact that every vampire gets random psychic powers like 2E AD&D D&D game is weird, but eh.
    I mean, Vampire Bella can see the future. Bella's baby can create force fields.

    I am curious why there are no Hollywood Eastern Vampire Movies? Like the Hopping Vampires or other ones.

    Sure, Hoppers seem silly, but they are considered vampires.

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