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Thread: About charging?

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default About charging?

    I can't figure out how to roll a situation in which a gargantuan creature physically runs into a medium creature. In Bull Rush you only move the target one square. Surely a gargantuan creature would send the target flying more than one square?? What am I missing here? Picture a car hitting a person in real life and you'll know what I mean.

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    Default Re: About charging?

    You're not missing anything, the bull rush rules don't work out all that well when you start involving size categories.

    However, it sounds like you're the DM (since the players can't usually create Gargantuan characters) so you can do whatever you like.

    You could just give the enemy in question a charge attack which throws a PC several squares if you want an easy out or you could try some homebrew rules if you want something more consistent.

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    Default Re: About charging?

    Note that the size difference between a gargantuan creature and a medium creature is greater than the size difference between a medium creature and a rat. It is going to be very difficult for the larger creature to put its weight behind an attack at the smaller creature; any ability to do so should be listed and one of the creature's powers.

    The larger creature could certainly connect with a single limb or single digit, causing a small amount of movement, and that's what I'd figure would be represented by a standard bull rush.

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    Default Re: About charging?

    Yes, it's a clear oversight. Most game systems have the basic assumption combatants are roughly the same size and that causes issues such as this.

    Perhaps a house rule? Something like: A Bullrush charge pushes the victim one square plus one extra square for each size category the attacker has over his victim. So a Large creature's Bullrush pushes Medium sized creatures two squares and so on.
    Last edited by Raimun; 2012-10-01 at 01:37 PM.
    I know what you're thinking. "Did he prepare six Explosive Runes this morning or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is the 3rd level spell Explosive Runes, the most powerful Abjuration in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    Perhaps a house rule? Something like: A Bullrush charge pushes the victim one square plus one extra square for each size category the attacker has over his victim. So a Large creature's Bullrush pushes Medium sized creatures two squares and so on.
    I'd be cautious of such a broad rule, especially because it just randomly throws a disadvantage on small PCs. It also makes horses able to push halflings 3 squares, and I'm having a hard time seeing how that would work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    I'd be cautious of such a broad rule, especially because it just randomly throws a disadvantage on small PCs. It also makes horses able to push halflings 3 squares, and I'm having a hard time seeing how that would work.
    Not randomly. By Design.

    Besides, halflings are very small. Therefore, they fly far.
    Last edited by Raimun; 2012-10-01 at 03:42 PM.
    I know what you're thinking. "Did he prepare six Explosive Runes this morning or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is the 3rd level spell Explosive Runes, the most powerful Abjuration in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    I'd be cautious of such a broad rule,
    I wouldn't. Bull rushes, as written, are vastly underpowered and almost completely unused (based on my play experience since 4E came out); so I wouldn't be averse to making them a bit stronger. It's not like it's overpowering to have a halfling move three whole squares on the battlemap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I wouldn't. Bull rushes, as written, are vastly underpowered and almost completely unused (based on my play experience since 4E came out); so I wouldn't be averse to making them a bit stronger. It's not like it's overpowering to have a halfling move three whole squares on the battlemap.
    Three squares.
    That's as many as three ones.
    And that's terrible.
    Last edited by Raimun; 2012-10-01 at 04:15 PM.
    I know what you're thinking. "Did he prepare six Explosive Runes this morning or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is the 3rd level spell Explosive Runes, the most powerful Abjuration in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    Not randomly. By Design.

    Besides, halflings are very small. Therefore, they fly far.
    Arbitrarily, then. And it is arbitrary, as a halfling who is stout and heavily geared outweighs an eladrin wizard who is scrawny and naked, yet still gets pushed farther.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I wouldn't. Bull rushes, as written, are vastly underpowered and almost completely unused (based on my play experience since 4E came out); so I wouldn't be averse to making them a bit stronger. It's not like it's overpowering to have a halfling move three whole squares on the battlemap.
    Bull rush is not supposed to be an attractive option, as most creatures who should be pushing things around will have powers specifically for that. There's no advantage to adding this; it makes a rarely used rule more complicated, and doesn't increase realism in any significant way.

    Instead of adding this general rule, why not just give the particular creature in question a power with an appropriate push on it? It fixes the problem, and introduces very few side effects.

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    Default Re: About charging?

    Consider maybe adding a strength check? Weight gives DC. Then perhaps an Acrobatics to save against the push? This can go on and on if you like, getting more and more complex.

    If you are the DM, then slap on an extra at-will power, that let's them bull rush for extra pushing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tegu8788 View Post
    Consider maybe adding a strength check? Weight gives DC. Then perhaps an Acrobatics to save against the push?
    That would only make it even more useless (and unfortunately this seems to be the standard approach to flashy maneuvers for many DMs). Seriously, people, any action that requires an attack roll and a strength check and a saving throw is an action not worth taking; the chances against it working are ludicrous.
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    Default Re: About charging?

    I just house ruled it that if a PC has a strength modifier+ magical armour modifier (shield/bracers and worn armour mod's only) that is greater than that of the monster then they're pushed the difference. If the result is less than or equal to the creatures strength mod then they're pushed one square+ 1d2 at heroic, 1d3 at paragon and 1d4 at epic.
    Last edited by Smart_alec; 2012-10-01 at 07:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Note that the size difference between a gargantuan creature and a medium creature is greater than the size difference between a medium creature and a rat. It is going to be very difficult for the larger creature to put its weight behind an attack at the smaller creature; any ability to do so should be listed and one of the creature's powers.

    The larger creature could certainly connect with a single limb or single digit, causing a small amount of movement, and that's what I'd figure would be represented by a standard bull rush.
    I have to agree with this. If a gargantuan creature tried to bull rush a medium creature more than one square, it would probably just bat them aside or run them over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shamgar001 View Post
    I have to agree with this. If a gargantuan creature tried to bull rush a medium creature more than one square, it would probably just bat them aside or run them over.
    I also wondered about this. Are there rules for running something over. I can find none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godrednu View Post
    I also wondered about this. Are there rules for running something over. I can find none.
    Such abilities are usually listed in the statblocks of the creatures likely to do it. Other creatures can be assumed to not want heavily armed adventurers close to their soft underbelly.

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    I must agree on unlikeliness of a very large creature being able to push a "an unattended smaller creature" farther, because of the following:

    option 1 - body rush
    The creature forces it's bodily mass over a smaller creature. Now, there are many different shapes in the game, but the argument of it probably just grazing or running over the enemy is pretty sound. Also, it's hard for you "push" someone if he is as tall as your ankle, for example. And that's just for gargantuan humanoids, imagine a dragon going "low down" to move a Human.

    In this scenario, I imagine it more as a "push by extremities" or a pure "I am big" intimidate-similar move (where you flap your wings and approach the puny human).

    option 2 - shove
    If the very large creature attempts to push an enemy, it might do it using an extremity. But that way you can say that it tampers with its movement (limbs or no limbs, a part of it's body is stretched out to push) and reducing it, or that it can't hold the creature (since it isn't actually grabbing it) for more than a meager 1 square "slide" (since it's that easy).

    option 3 - flippity-flap
    The creature makes a body jerk forward, maybe even without any physical contact against the human, forcing it to take a step back evading the risk to suffer other consequences (a lot of fluff here, yes). A Strength check indicates what is more of a medium creature's appraisal of the force that might hit it, in this case. If the Strength check succeeds, call it a brave man standing or an actual collision where he stood, whatever fits the situation.

    Notes
    Many of the pushes you imagine sound a lot like "I got grabbed and tossed" which should be covered by some other rules, or like an attack, a strike, which is so forceful that it gets our heroes flying. In the first case, as I said, different (non RAW-ish, I presume) rules should be applied to how far can a creature with Strength X throw an object with Weight Y. In the second case, a huge dragon cannot push someone that he just bit (try imagine that!) but it can if he attacked with it's tail, which I think most dragons do.

    Furthermore, some creatures, if I'm not mistaken, have some power enhancement on their forced movement abilities, adding extra squares (as even players can) to the amount they move.

    Also, remember that our medium creatures here are actually - heroes. Yes, I can imagine a very big dragon running into very small peasants, but I'd rule that closer to disintegration than bull rush. Jokes to the side, our hero is the one that can stand the ground, knows how to position, has that small side step which makes the enemy lose the edge in the push after one square. Although this argument might seem invalid, since the dragon has the option to bull-rush the peasant how often - in the normative gaming session (whatever that might be) - must he? Rules cover what is likely and essential, and you do the rest - so your dragon can (a) grab the peasant and carry it away, (b) intimidate it into running X back, and, most importantly, (c) do whatever the hell you see fitting that one situation in the whole of gaming cosmos, and that is pushing it three squares. Unless your players are total *******s rule freaks, they won't hit you with Rules Compendium in the head and instead try to save/eat/tickle the peasant instead.

    Hope this helped, enjoy your gaming!
    Last edited by Mandrake; 2012-10-02 at 02:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godrednu View Post
    I also wondered about this. Are there rules for running something over. I can find none.
    's called trample. Some creatures (like the terrasque) *ducks for thrown fruit for mentioning said creature* have such rules. Just like The nater said. It's called trample. I think it does damage and leaves you prone or something.

    The rest is pretty much covered by mandrake above me, if I do say so myself. Though there is one thing I'd like to add:

    Being unable to push something you just bit? Are you mad? Bite down, hold the thing in your mighty jaw and hurl the thing like a day old poptart. Definately a classic move for any large monstrous creature in my opinion.
    Last edited by Mistwing; 2012-10-02 at 05:05 AM.
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    Being unable to push something you just bit? Are you mad? Bite down, hold the thing in your mighty jaw and hurl the thing like a day old poptart. Definately a classic move for any large monstrous creature in my opinion.
    something you just bit; hold the thing; hurl the thing
    I agree, but this is what is covered by either throwing a grabbed creature (in my post) or by a special attack the monster has which pushes foes, if it has one. Anyways, different rules apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
    something you just bit; hold the thing; hurl the thing
    I agree, but this is what is covered by either throwing a grabbed creature (in my post) or by a special attack the monster has which pushes foes, if it has one. Anyways, different rules apply.
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    Well I guess this is the usual case of player vs DM scenario hmmm interesting :-) but rather than making house rule I rather make new monster to counter the pc ability than make house rule

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarlison View Post
    Well I guess this is the usual case of player vs DM scenario hmmm interesting :-) but rather than making house rule I rather make new monster to counter the pc ability than make house rule
    Well, ultimately it's a personal choice and depends on the DM. Houserules are tools, after all, there to help DM's adjust the system as needed for whatever reason. But some prefer not to use it. It's really all about style and preference; some might prefer to just go: "You're thrown <X amount> of squares" while others prefer to have it all grounded in the rules. Other make a new monster and some just tack on allready existing functions.

    But ultimately that's a discussion that's not really related to the question presented here...

    So I guess I conclude everything i have to say here with that: It's a matter of opinion, DMing style, preference. And perhaps, to some degree, favorite flavor of donuts.
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    I agree with earlier suggestions to make the "bull rush" a power that the monster can use. Changing bull rush to take into account monster size won't likely benefit the PCs at all (as monsters generally always out-size them). Giving bull rush a bit more punch (say, and athletics check versus a monster's Fort, +1 square for every 5 that the check beats the attack) is an option, but most PCs will (rightly) simply pick powers that push enemies instead.

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    You'd be better off yoinking existing forced movement powers: quite a few monsters have them, there are certainly ton of class ones you could tack on via templates, items etc. Don't be surprised if everybody starts getting Dwarven in response though.

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    Default Re: About charging?

    Just something quick off the top of my head by you could add or subtract a square to bull rush for every difference in size category.

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    I think that basic options should be more appealing overall. Creature design that replaces rule mechanics for attacks like grabbing and bull rush suggest that those mechanics were very poorly designed. Better design would build on the mechanic in place instead.

    Kurald Galain's grievance against the "attack plus skill" mechanic is valid, as "double or nothing" requirements are frustrating. I am in favour of letting the result (in combination with difference in size) dictate the distance pushed. A creature whose size matches the attacker's size is pushed 1 square, with an additional square per 5 points the attack roll exceeds the target's defense. The attacker should be able to move with the target up to the limit of its speed, but that should not limit the distance the target could be pushed.

    Then again, I'm also in favour of giving the target of forced movement the option of making Acrobaticss check to steer forced movement, as long as the movement still travels in a valid direction (for pushes or pulls). I'd suggest limiting this adjustment to affecting only 1 square of movement on a moderate check, possibly 2 with a difficult check, and even that might be too complicated and time consuming for a lot of people. I just like to see agility count for a little bit more in combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower View Post
    I think that basic options should be more appealing overall. Creature design that replaces rule mechanics for attacks like grabbing and bull rush suggest that those mechanics were very poorly designed. Better design would build on the mechanic in place instead.
    No, It doesn't. Kobolds are shifty. Elves shift on difficult terrain. There is nothing wrong with Shift because of that.

    A creature whose size matches the attacker's size is pushed 1 square, with an additional square per 5 points the attack roll exceeds the target's defense. The attacker should be able to move with the target up to the limit of its speed, but that should not limit the distance the target could be pushed.
    You've got math all over the place. Although this beats "size difference" indicator, I think there is still a reason, both logical (as in, worldly) and an in-game one, why you can't simply take someone and push it a lot. That's what special training is for! Compare Melee Basic Attack with anything else, it looks like their retarded young nephew. So is Bull Rush compared to other special techniques of bull rushing someone. You are good at pushing people? Ok, show me something for it. Take a feat, learn a power.

    Then again, I'm also in favour of giving the target of forced movement the option of making Acrobaticss check to steer forced movement, as long as the movement still travels in a valid direction (for pushes or pulls). I'd suggest limiting this adjustment to affecting only 1 square of movement on a moderate check, possibly 2 with a difficult check, and even that might be too complicated and time consuming for a lot of people. I just like to see agility count for a little bit more in combat.
    More math. It's not that I don't like the ideas, it's just that I think they should stay only ideas. This causes breakage, and I still believe that you should, if you have a situation like that arise, once in like 10 sessions, rely on your DM and his cooperation with the players to sort it out. This way, a usual ordinary thing becomes something that beats a power you train in. Some controllers take spells only so that they can push someone somewhere!

    Jesus, why don't you add a prone-ing effect to it in the end, it looks like something that might happen.


    (This is not against you Shatteredtower.)

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    Bull Rush (Houseruled)
    Make an Athletics check against the your target's fortitude. You suffer a -5 penalty to this check for every size category they are larger than you, and gain a +5 bonus for every size category they are smaller than you.

    If you succeed, you can push the target 1 square and (optionally) move towards them. For each 5 you beat their fortitude by, you can extend this push, so long as you continue to follow them, except possibly the last square you push them.

    Options: If you could push them X squares while following, you can instead push them X/2 squares without following (knock them flying). You can take a -10 penalty to this check and do a Bull Rush as part of a move action, but if you fail your move ends and you provoke an opportunity attack from your target.

    ...

    overly fiddly probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
    No, It doesn't. Kobolds are shifty. Elves shift on difficult terrain. There is nothing wrong with Shift because of that.
    You're talking about oranges in a conversation about apples? Both kobolds and elves build on a core mechanic, rather than replacing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
    You've got math all over the place.
    If, "Math is hard," is seen as a problem, this game wasn't for Barbie in the first place. We're not dealing with the weapon vs. AC modifiers found in the 1E PHB here, or the grappling rules from that edition's DMG. Even 4E can be a nightmare when a handful of feats, powers, and class features are sending attack and defense modfiers bouncing all over the place from round to round, target by target.

    Counting by fives is something that should come automatically before you're old enough to be playing this game. It's already standard procedure for many skill checks, especially for Athletics. New applications of something you're already expected to be able to do should not be that great an imposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
    That's what special training is for!
    Build optimization is a poor argument in defense of sub-optimal core options. Skills enable players, as every new idea players come up with for them increases the number of options open to them. Feat and power (and equipment) dependency is restrictive, each of them taking away from the player who didn't include that option in their limited inventory. They exist because WotC earns more money from selling you fish than from offering fishing lessons. As means of making your characters better, they are downright wasteful. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of these things in your collection that you are never going to use. It's not in your interest that they exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
    Jesus, why don't you add a prone-ing effect to it in the end, it looks like something that might happen.
    If it suits your table, why not? I think you've missed that part of my statements. I did note that such changes add complications to a game, and that it was up to those playing to decide whether or not you got something worthwhile in exchange for them.

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    Shatteredtower, maybe I misunderstood you. As far as I can see, at this point, both Elves and Kobolds replace the mechanics, extend it, if you will. Same goes for creatures that can push in a non-bull rush way. It's not apples and oranges, it's just an example for that "simple rules, many exceptions" thing. Basically, Bull Rush is Bull Rush and Shift is Shift. If you're talented, it's something else, something better.

    Also, "math all over the place", isn't (only) about tough maths and calculus. It is about attempting to math-scale something and it might go wild. First of all, you still kept that size category rule, if I'm not wrong. What do you do when character's (whose size doesn't increase) start meeting bigger and bigger opponents? Bull Rush goes to waste for them, at the very least. Also, attack role difference is running rampant, random and that's without adding the issues of some weird by-level scaling of attacks and defenses.

    No one will optimize in Bull Rushing. Period. Everyone can bull rush, still. I think that something that is "core" shouldn't be as powerful as something you "work" for. Something everyone can do should rarely be a better option than something you are an expert in. Moving someone around is hard, and it is game-breaking if you change that with some whizzly common-sense arguments (which I tried to show when I common-sensed reasons why it shouldn't scale by size, for example). As I said, controllers spend their "training points" just to be able to move someone a tad. For example (if even apples and oranges), second wind is not nearly as good as some other healing powers. Yet, no one argues that someone "good at defending" should get higher defense bonuses. Or more second winds. No, you get only one. You're tough? Get Third Wind as your utility. Be a Dwarf. Wanna charge well? Minotaurs are skilled in that. Why don't four-legged creatures charge better, makes sense to me. Or those with higher movement speed?

    Bull Rush should, basically, be used as somewhat of a desperate measure, same like melee basic attack, same like second wind (this has it's exceptions, of course, but a minor action heal beats it almost always). You are in no position to be picky. You put your damn body into it and move someone a bit. It's not perfect, but that's it.
    And of course you can add prone to it. That's the whole point. You can, in that particular situation. Many exceptions. But if that starts getting covered by some rules, you'll just end up thinking of reasons why it shouldn't happen and talking between players and DM about it. So just talk about it happening, when you think it should, it saves you some time.
    Last edited by Mandrake; 2012-10-23 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: About charging?

    Ok, say I build an Enchanter, my awesome push power pushes x squares. I then take a standard fighter and can potentially push more than the Enchanter? Why would I play an Enchanter?

    Bull Rush sucks and there is a reason for this. Forced movement is primarily the forte of the controllers. Just because something is big doesnt mean it can easily push things. Thats just simple physics. Size doesn't necessarily relate to mass and or density. A giant cloud is several sizes bigger than a hero, doesn't mean it can bull rush the hero. Size is a poor descriptor to use here.

    And if your players think outside the box, it will come up anyway. Bull Rush is weak but it is still something to have in your bag of tricks. It shouldn't be game changing.
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