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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    After their last argument , I'm beginning to think that both Tarquin and Ian are not so different afterall. Both are foreigners in a land that is not their own trying to impose their political views upon it. Both are also stubborn and believe that any other way of thinking besides their's is automatically wrong. And.....both are also fathers of respective protagonists.
    Last edited by paladinofshojo; 2012-10-01 at 03:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Yeah ... except for that they have completely opposite alignments.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    After their last argument , I'm beginning to think that both Tarquin and Ian are not so different afterall. Both are foreigners in a land that is not their own trying to impose their political views upon it. Both are also stubborn and believe that any other way of thinking besides their's is automatically wrong. And.....both are also fathers of respective protagonists.
    Yeah, Iíd say that thatís a good reading.

    Now, letís see if we can work Eugene in there somehow and really find out how bad the Daddy Issues are in the Order.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Yeah ... except for that they have completely opposite alignments.
    Because alignment is the end-all of characterization.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    After their last argument , I'm beginning to think that both Tarquin and Ian are not so different afterall. Both are foreigners in a land that is not their own trying to impose their political views upon it. Both are also stubborn and believe that any other way of thinking besides their's is automatically wrong. And.....both are also fathers of respective protagonists.
    Excuse me? Who's the protagonist here?
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    I'm so incredibly relieved that this wasn't an attempt to argue that Ian and Tarquin are (somehow) literally the same.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I'm so incredibly relieved that this wasn't an attempt to argue that Ian and Tarquin are (somehow) literally the same.




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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    That's half the reason I'm relieved.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I'm so incredibly relieved that this wasn't an attempt to argue that Ian and Tarquin are (somehow) literally the same.
    ME TOO

    The topic's title really had me worried, y'see.

    Anyway, sure, they're probably going to wind up being mild foils for each other, given that they are the fathers of Elan and Haley and have exactly opposite alignments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Come to think of it, other than being the father of a protagonist (inb4WMG), Girard would count too.

    Outsiders? Yup.
    Trying to impose views? It's a stretch, but "the gate must not fall into evil hands" ought to do it.
    Dogmatic? Oh yes.
    Also believes in strong family ties like Ian, and is paranoid enough for both of them.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Excuse me? Who's the protagonist here?
    Clearly the guy who abandoned his friend to hostile woodland bandits and betrayed his entire party all for the chance to potentially get with some complete stranger who moments ago was attacking him and his entire party. Clearly.



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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Excuse me? Who's the protagonist here?
    Iíd say that weíve got enough of an ensemble thing going here.
    The Future just ainít what it used to be.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    They are not the same, but they are a lot alike.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Because alignment is the end-all of characterization.
    It is not, but it matters. A Paladin and an Anti-paladin, are both strongly devoted to their cause, after all, but the difference is pretty clear, I believe.
    The axis Evil/Good, is one of the easiest ways to describe someone's behavior.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-10-08 at 06:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    They are not the same, but they are a lot alike.
    Because they are both old school characters. They don't have complex personalties, they just grab wealth and power.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    According to Book 5's commentary, Ian and Tarquin are the exact same person.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    After their last argument , I'm beginning to think that both Tarquin and Ian are not so different afterall. Both are foreigners in a land that is not their own trying to impose their political views upon it. Both are also stubborn and believe that any other way of thinking besides their's is automatically wrong. And.....both are also fathers of respective protagonists.
    However, the imposition of views is fundamentally different when one case is trying to enshrine their views into law and brutally enforce them whereas the other is trying to create a society where their views are not imposed at all, and where other people can choose to reject their views if they choose to do so. As for them being foreigners in a land that is not their own, that applies to either much of the population given the amount of migrations, troop movements and settling, etc. going on, or basically nobody if you consider this valid and the land belonging largely to the new people.

    To some extent they are foils, but calling them the same and using the imposition of political views to do so is a stretch. A revolutionary leader and a tyrant are two very different positions, even if one can transition from one to the other under the correct circumstances.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    After their last argument , I'm beginning to think that both Tarquin and Ian are not so different afterall. Both are foreigners in a land that is not their own trying to impose their political views upon it. Both are also stubborn and believe that any other way of thinking besides their's is automatically wrong. And.....both are also fathers of respective protagonists.
    Trying to take over an entire continent and be a dictator who rules with an iron fist, and trying to topple an evil dictator to make him not oppress people are not "imposing their political views" in the same sense.
    Tarqin is imposing his political views on EVERYONE, Ian is imposing his political views on TARQIN.
    So no, they're not the same in any meaningful way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Because they are both old school characters. They don't have complex personalties, they just grab wealth and power.
    Ian got himself imprisoned by choice, how is that possibly a grab for wealth and power? He was gonna die in there if not for Haley.
    Last edited by Mastikator; 2012-10-09 at 01:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Trying to take over an entire continent and be a dictator who rules with an iron fist, and trying to topple an evil dictator to make him not oppress people are not "imposing their political views" in the same sense.
    Tarqin is imposing his political views on EVERYONE, Ian is imposing his political views on TARQIN.
    So no, they're not the same in any meaningful way.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I'm so incredibly relieved that this wasn't an attempt to argue that Ian and Tarquin are (somehow) literally the same.
    Mirror of opposition, maybe? (yeah, I know, I'm a bad person)

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Actually, they are twins. And Tarquin's real name is Nai Starshine.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    After their last argument , I'm beginning to think that both Tarquin and Ian are not so different afterall. Both are foreigners in a land that is not their own trying to impose their political views upon it. Both are also stubborn and believe that any other way of thinking besides their's is automatically wrong. And.....both are also fathers of respective protagonists.
    Tarquin isn't really trying to impose his views on the nation. He is more trying to impose his will on it. He doesn't care about the culture, nature, or opinions of the people of the Empire of Blood, and will cheerfully modify any of them to make himself more likely to keep power.

    Ian, on the other hand, is doing the opposite. He doesn't care about being in power, but is extremely determined to alter the opinions of the Empire such that they do not want to have tyrants or strong authority figures in general.

    They're almost exact opposites.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Tarqin is imposing his political views on EVERYONE, Ian is imposing his political views on TARQIN.
    Not quite. Ian is imposing his political views on Tarquin and everybody who agrees with tarquin who's lives have improved under Tarquin's rule.. Some people simply don't want the kind of anarchic freedom Ian promotes and Ian would, yes, be forcing his ideology on those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    It is not, but it matters. A Paladin and an Anti-paladin, are both strongly devoted to their cause, after all, but the difference is pretty clear, I believe.
    The axis Evil/Good, is one of the easiest ways to describe someone's behavior.
    It's not like line between chaotic good and lawful evil is really, really thin. They're two faces of the same coin.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    Clearly the guy who abandoned his friend to hostile woodland bandits and betrayed his entire party all for the chance to potentially get with some complete stranger who moments ago was attacking him and his entire party. Clearly.


    Minor quibble - "protagonist" does not necessarily mean "hero". It just means he's the one the story is about. See Scarface and The Godfather for examples of villainous protagonists.

    Likewise, an antagonist is not necessarily villainous - it's just someone or something that provides conflict for the protagonist. See Sam Gerard of The Fugitive for a heroic antagonist.

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    Last edited by Gitman00; 2012-10-14 at 10:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Who What Now View Post
    Not quite. Ian is imposing his political views on Tarquin and everybody who agrees with tarquin who's lives have improved under Tarquin's rule.. Some people simply don't want the kind of anarchic freedom Ian promotes and Ian would, yes, be forcing his ideology on those people.
    The people who agree with Tarqin are about as many as the humans who live in Azure city and agree with goblin rule.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    The people who agree with Tarqin are about as many as the humans who live in Azure city and agree with goblin rule.
    The bounty hunters seem to be doing passably well under Tarquin's rule. As well as the slavers, who are admittedly on strike. The members of the military and palace guard probably range from ambivalent to happy about the current state of things. I'd say there's quite a few in the Empire of Blood who like the way Tarquin is running the place (even if they don't know it's him calling the shots). If there weren't, there would've been a revolution already.

    Unless by "people" you mean "non-Evil humans"; I usually read that to mean "sentient creatures" when the context is a fantasy setting with many varied sentient species.
    Last edited by Sorator; 2012-10-18 at 12:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorator View Post
    The bounty hunters seem to be doing passably well under Tarquin's rule. As well as the slavers, who are admittedly on strike. The members of the military and palace guard probably range from ambivalent to happy about the current state of things.
    There are two objections to be made. Well, there may be more, but two is all I can think of at the moment. First, there's no particular reason to believe that bounty hunters, slavers and slave drivers (it's the latter that are on strike), the military, and the police are representative of the people as a whole. With the exception of the bounty hunters and the slavers, all these people were both residents of Bleedingham and employees of the state - and the bounty hunters were independent contractors who ended up working for the state the only time we saw them. That this sample is rife with, well, sampling errors should be obvious. Second, why exactly should anyone with a reasonable regard for other beings' wellbeing and rights care at all for what bounty hunters, slavers, slave drivers, [REDACTED], and [REDACTED] think?

    EDIT: my politics were showing.

    I'd say there's quite a few in the Empire of Blood who like the way Tarquin is running the place (even if they don't know it's him calling the shots). If there weren't, there would've been a revolution already.
    Didn't you hear? There's a revolution, or at least a palace coup, every couple of years. The most recent one deposed a man with humanitarian and democratic incliniations - clearly revolution changes nothing and we, the common folk of the Western Continent can lapse into apathy with a clear conscience.

    Not that revolution is even remotely possible in a universe with characters as powerful as high-level adventurers.

    Unless by "people" you mean "non-Evil humans"; I usually read that to mean "sentient creatures" when the context is a fantasy setting with many varied sentient species.
    Well, barring an exceptional oversight there's non-evil lizardfolk in there too whose opinions deserve regard.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-10-18 at 02:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Now, I never said that a majority liked that style of rule. I was just attempting to point out that
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    The people who agree with Tarqin are about as many as the humans who live in Azure city and agree with goblin rule.
    is not really true.
    LGBTitP

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorator View Post
    Now, I never said that a majority liked that style of rule. I was just attempting to point out that

    is not really true.
    Do we have the Census figures to know whether or not that is really true? That there is a sizable portion of the population of the Empire of Blood that are fine with the way Tarquin runs things doesnít matter much if it is indeed true that the portion that doesnít is approximately equal to the portion of Azurites unhappy with the Goblin Occupation. That is just a matter of numbers.
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    Default Re: Are Ian and Tarquin the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Do we have the Census figures to know whether or not that is really true? That there is a sizable portion of the population of the Empire of Blood that are fine with the way Tarquin runs things doesnít matter much if it is indeed true that the portion that doesnít is approximately equal to the portion of Azurites unhappy with the Goblin Occupation. That is just a matter of numbers.
    I know of zero humans in Azure City who are okay with the way the goblins are running things (since Tsukiko died). I know of at least one person in the Empire of Blood who always agrees with Tarquin - Tarquin himself. This means there are more of the latter than the former, in a numerical sense - percentage-wise, we don't really know how many people are in the EoB in total or exactly how many agree with Tarquin, but they're still greater than 0. *shrug*
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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