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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default lets destroy the sun

    so we have this evil everybody for themselves campaign going on, and one of my character goals is to remove the sun from the material world so that the forces of the underdark can swarm up and take over.

    I'm a (universal custom rules by the DM) Gestalt mind flayer manifesting as an 8th lvl psion telepath, 2nd lvl wizard, 5th level master specialist, thrallherd 1.
    the feats work out so i can do all that ;)

    focussed specialist so i cant cast evocation, enchantment or transmutation spells.

    how to i get rid of that pesky sun?

    preferably before epic levels needed.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    A: find a way to go to the elemental plane of water.

    B:find a way to cast gate and keep it up permanently. (gate plus permanency is one way)

    C:find a way to automatically leave the elemental plane.

    First go to the elemental plane, then open up a gate to the sun. The infinite water of the plane should take out all the fire and plasma and heat of the sun....eventually.

    The way to leave the plane automatically is because you don't want to be sucked into the sun.

    That's one way to do it.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Acquire a Sphere of Annihilation, establish control over the sphere, send the sphere into the center of the sun. Star implodes as all of its matter is sucked into the sphere.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    In before Iron Heart Surge? Anyway, wouldn't it be better, (and easier,) to block out the sun enough to make the upperworld liveable? I am pretty sure the Drow wouldn't be too thrilled living on a planet whose orbit is all screwed up and is now too cold to sustain almost any life.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    A: find a way to go to the elemental plane of water.

    B:find a way to cast gate and keep it up permanently. (gate plus permanency is one way)

    C:find a way to automatically leave the elemental plane.

    First go to the elemental plane, then open up a gate to the sun. The infinite water of the plane should take out all the fire and plasma and heat of the sun....eventually.

    The way to leave the plane automatically is because you don't want to be sucked into the sun.

    That's one way to do it.

    Assuming real world physics, this might not work:

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ut-out-the-sun

    Basically, the water would just become more fuel for the sun. You'd probably make the sun bigger and more powerful, the opposite of what you were trying to accomplish.

    On the other hand, in a fantasy universe, who knows what the sun is like? If, for example, it's just a giant candle floating a mere 100 miles from the Earth, then you just need to blow it out.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    you could go one level in archmage and get True Creation as a SLA to make a box of electrons with no space between each of the particles, inside the sun.

    Electrons repel each other. True Creation creates a 5x5 cube. That's a 5x5 cube of a high amount of (haven't done chem in ages) of particles all suddenly trying to repel each other at once from the atomic equivalent of point blank.

    That cube holds 5x5x5 feet, or 125 feet. One foot ~= 0.3048 meters, so the volume of the cube in meters is about 125 f x (0.3048 m/f) ~= 3.5396 m.
    Now, the upper limit on the radius of an electron is 10^(-22) m (this depends on who you ask. Obviously there is some question of whether or not you can actually measure this radius. Hush. Since things in D&D occupy 3-space in cube form, I will simplify the calculations by assuming the electron is a cube with radius 10^(-22) m, which is to say a cube of side-length 2 x 10^(-22) m.
    Given this, an electron occupies the following volume with our D&D approximation: (2 x 10^(-22) m) = 8 x 10^(-66) m.
    We now have enough to do our calculation, which is simple enough: we divide the cube's volume by the electron's volume to get the number of electrons we've created: (3.5396 m)/(8 x 10^(-66) m) = 4.4245 x 10^65 electrons.
    Note that this number (which because of our D&D "physics" is actually much less than the actual number of spheres you can fit in this cube) is completely ridiculous. For comparison, the number of particles in the universe is estimated to be only a few powers of 10 more than this (somewhere kind of around 10^75).
    The charge on a single electron is -1.602 x 10^(-19) Coulombs. Multiply this by the number of electrons you've just made, and you get a total charge of 2.836 x 10^48 C. We need to know more about the environment (and how the particles interact, as Urpriest noted) to know more, but that much charge is outrageous.
    The mass involved here is also stupidly huge. Even though each electron has almost negligible mass (about 9.109 x 10^(-31) kg), the sheer number you're dealing with means this cube weighs about 4.03 x 10^35 kg. Compare: the sun weighs about 2 x 10^30 kg. Whoops. The Chandrasekhar Limit (above which point this pile of electrons would become a black hole) is about 1.4 solar masses. This box, then, obviously becomes a black hole (in fact, it becomes Supermassive, with almost 150,000 solar masses). In case you are reluctant to believe this based on a Limit you've never heard of...
    The escape velocity from a planet with raduis r and mass m is v = √(2Gm/r). In this case, m = 4 x 10^35 kg, and r = 0.762 m. The gravitational constant, G, is 6.673 x 10^(-11) m/(kg s). So the escape velocity from our box is
    v = √((2 x (6.673 x 10^(-11) m^3/(kg x s^2)) (4 x 10^35 kg))/0.762 m)
    ve = 8.37 x 10^12 m/s. The speed of light e = 2.998 x 10^8 m/s. You got yourself a black hole. 'Gratz.
    Finally, there is some chance that the actual volume of an electron is 0 (or infinitely small, at any rate). In this case you would almost certainly destroy the whole plane, because you would never "fill" your cube with electrons, but would rather dump infinite mass (and charge, but I'm not sure that would matter at that point) into your little box. Bye-bye, everything. Hope you cast that as an Astral Projection from a protected demiplane. Maybe that would even save you.

    Only problem is not destroying everything else

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Acquire a Sphere of Annihilation, establish control over the sphere, send the sphere into the center of the sun. Star implodes as all of its matter is sucked into the sphere.
    Here are some difficulties with this plan:

    A person can control a sphere of annihilation from a distance of 40 ft plus 10 ft per character level. Assuming a max of 20th level (pre-epic) characters, we're talking about a distance of 240 ft. So, to get the sphere into the sun, you only need to get within 240 ft of the sun... which could be problematic. You'd need to be able to survive in space (or use weird Spelljammer rules), you'd need to be immune to heat (not impossible) and radiation (more difficult... assuming radiation exists in a D&D world), and be able to travel with the sphere that incredibly long distance away from the Earth.

    And, since it's a D&D world, there are probably all sorts of creatures living in the sun who would object most strenuously to such a plan. And since you have to get very close to them, some sort of epic combat is likely to ensue.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Acquire a Sphere of Annihilation, establish control over the sphere, send the sphere into the center of the sun. Star implodes as all of its matter is sucked into the sphere.
    How are you going to get within a few hundred feet of the Sun's core? Also, the Sphere only sucks in matter it comes in direct contact with at a time. Even if it continues to suck in more and more of the sun, it can only destroy about 170 square feet of the sun at a time. Even if the sphere destroys its own surface area of the sun 1,000,000,000 times a second you won't even see the sun destroyed in your lifetime if you are a dwarf.
    Last edited by SowZ; 2012-10-02 at 12:56 PM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Immunity to fire plus immunity to radiant damage (which If I remember correctly is considered radiation.)

    Plus gate.

    But you make a good point on The time it takes.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    You could try reversing the plan. Go with something you know is going to make the sun more intense then let those pesky above landers put their resources into the fallout and figure out a solution which you can (probably) abuse to extinguish the sun (or at least diminish it significantly).

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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Hm. If, instead of the plane of water, we used the Quasi-elemental plane of vacuum for the gate to the core, could we suck away a significant amount of material from the sun's core, eventually draining it of fuel?

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Immunity to fire plus immunity to radiant damage (which If I remember correctly is considered radiation.)

    Plus gate.

    But you make a good point on The time it takes.
    Of course, if you can somehow make the sphere much much larger, (it will be exponential in how much it sucks in with each size increment,) then accelerate time, (or slow down everyone elses time,) you may accomplish it. And if you can craft one sphere, why not more than one? I am not saying the plan should be forgotten, but it needs some more oomph.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    How about, instead of destroying the sun, you start by building a filter between it and the earth? That should be easier.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Hm. If, instead of the plane of water, we used the Quasi-elemental plane of vacuum for the gate to the core, could we suck away a significant amount of material from the sun's core, eventually draining it of fuel?
    Again, though, time. There are many octillians of cubic feet in the sun. How will you suck that in at a rate not measured in millenniums?
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Anyway, wouldn't it be better, (and easier,) to block out the sun enough to make the upperworld liveable? I am pretty sure the Drow wouldn't be too thrilled living on a planet whose orbit is all screwed up and is now too cold to sustain almost any life.
    Maybe they are suicidal Drow?

    Of course, the problem with any sort of temporary blockage of the sun is that anything that a PC can do to affect things on a global scale can be instantly undone by a higher level NPC (of which there are millions in a standard D&D campaign world).

    So, while one could block out the sun ("Simpsons did it!") or even move the Earth far enough away from the sun to make the sun no more relevant than any other star in the sky... if a PC can do it, it can be undone ("a wizard did it").

    But yeah, any plan to destroy the sun is a monumentally bad plan for anyone who wants to live in, on, under, or near the Earth.
    Last edited by SimonMoon6; 2012-10-02 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Gate in it matter (even water) until it becomes a black hole.Warning, this has a high chance of destroying the earth too.

    Have a Hulking Hurler throw the Moon at it. Surprisingly easy.
    Stay out of the shadows, they bite.


    Check out Camp Archimedes, a (slightly homebrew) mercenary camp full of interesting units. A great addition to any campaign (in my very biased opinion)

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Something else to consider:

    Suppose you do destroy the sun (or start one of these million-year long plans to do so). Just how do you think Apollo (and the other dozens of sun gods) are going to feel about that?

    If you destroy the sun, your own personal life expectancy is not very high.

    Assuming the sun gods can survive without the sun, they will kill you. If they die or fade away now that their portfolio (the sun) no longer exists, all their friends (the other gods) will come smite you.

    But perhaps, one could think about this the other way. If the sun god and the sun are somehow inextricably linked, it is possible (just *possible*) that if you managed to kill the sun god, you might destroy the sun at the same time. Certainly, in a universe with only one pantheon, this might be plausible. In a universe with a million sun gods, well, you might have to kill them all.
    Last edited by SimonMoon6; 2012-10-02 at 01:19 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Certain of the metabreath feats in the Draconomicon allow you stack their effects without limit,

    but increases the recovery times between uses of your breath weapon each time you apply the feat.

    As such some creature with a breath weapon could stack the Enlarge Breath feat ad nauseam to engulf the entire star in a massive energystorm,

    though at the cost of probably never using their breath weapon ever again, but that's the price one has to pay for destroying the sun.

    Get the half dragon (white) template get the feats enlarge breath and clinging breath and lingering breath.

    Enlarge Breath is a metabreath feat that explicitly allows itself to stack any number of times. Each time you do it, you get to increase the range of your power by 50% in exchange for waiting another round for your breath weapon to recover.

    For something the size of the sun, it will need a stupid amount of stacks of Enlarge Breath (best just stack it infinitly), and then you can't use your breath weapon ever again.

    lingering breath allows us to leave behind a cloud that deals half the damage of the original attack (2d6 now) in the same area. The cost is two rounds of cooldown per one round of duration added. Since half of infinity is infinity it lasts forever (or as long as you want depending)

    End result:The sun becomes a giant ice cube in the sky.
    Last edited by Harry; 2012-10-02 at 01:37 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Can't you use wish to wish the sun out of existance?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMoon6 View Post
    Basically, the water would just become more fuel for the sun. You'd probably make the sun bigger and more powerful, the opposite of what you were trying to accomplish.
    That would, however, make the sun burn out faster and brighter, charring everything before dieing out in mere millions of years.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Again, though, time. There are many octillians of cubic feet in the sun. How will you suck that in at a rate not measured in millenniums?
    Not with vacuum. Vacuum does not exert force. Our sun is in a vacuum, for example, as is earth's atmosphere!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Have a Hulking Hurler throw the Moon at it. Surprisingly easy.
    The moon is really, really pitifully small. It'd be like throwing a normal man-made snowball at eurasia.
    Last edited by Andreaz; 2012-10-02 at 01:42 PM.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    But if there ws a gate from the core of the sun to vacuum, wouldn't the pressure differential force sun matter through the gate?

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeso View Post
    Can't you use wish to wish the sun out of existance?
    Nope. That's way beyond the power of a wish spell. You've got a better shot at diplomancing a greater god into trying to put it out with alter reality, but even that might not be enough.

    Some elder evils blot out the sun as they approach/awaken. Maybe get one of them to help?
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    But if there ws a gate from the core of the sun to vacuum, wouldn't the pressure differential force sun matter through the gate?
    Then it would, yes, and at absurd rates too.
    Hardly enough though. I wish I knew the exact calculations from memory, but i'm too far from my books. Except something in the rate of milions of years though.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Use it as the fire source for Pyrotechnics.
    This 2nd level spell will then extinguish the sun.
    You just have to be able to get into range.
    You'll get a great fireworks display as well.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Greater Teleport has unlimited range
    That thing is no more terrible then I.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Use it as the fire source for Pyrotechnics.
    This 2nd level spell will then extinguish the sun.
    You just have to be able to get into range.
    You'll get a great fireworks display as well.
    That's just......beautiful.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Yeah - so
    Immunity to fire (somehow, several methods)
    Greater Teleport
    Quickened Pyrotechnics
    and either another Teleport or a Contingency to get home.

    With a bit of luck you will be home before it gets dark.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Its much easier to move the planet than it is to put out the sun. Still might not be 'achievable with PO' easy though. I do believe there's a PrC that lets you steal bits of land to another plane. Planeshifter, from Manual of the Planes. Each use gets you a 1000ft radius at max level. Get enough people to use this and you can move the whole (surface of the) planet to Pandemonium, where sun isn't a problem. Unfortunately, they shift back in 10 days. So you just need to keep it up and the sun comes out once every 10 days for an instant.

    Unfortunately there's a fixed DC 20 Will save to negate the transfer if the area contains any unwilling people. Negate the whole transfer, mind you, not just them getting transferred...

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    That's just......beautiful.
    It fails to consider two things though.
    1) The sun is not on fire
    2) Pyrotechnics doesn't consume the entire fire if it is "significantly large". I'd consider coronas with jets the size of planets significantly large.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Or you could just be a wizard/incantatrix or wizard/tainted scholar and persist (perhaps with reserve of strength?) undermaster.

    Then just use move earth to.....MOVE ALL THE EARTH!

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