lets destroy the sun

[Roaan]

Well here is something simple I have seen passed around in the past, and someone more skilled in Physics than I may have to back me up or disprove me, but here is the idea:

All you need is a single Epic feat, Far Shot

Prerequisites
Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Spot 20 ranks.

Benefit
You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range.

Now, all you have to do is wait until the sun is out, aim your longbow at it and loose an arrow. Now due to silly D&D math that arrow should arrive by the end of the round (~6sec). Since the sun is about 92,960,000 miles away, then the arrow is traveling at roughly 92960000/6 = 15,493,333 MILES PER SEC.

A simple Google search tells me that the speed of light is a mere 186,282 miles per sec. So, this arrow (glossing over a lot of physics D&D doesn't account for) is traveling at roughly 83 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT.

As something approaches light speed it also approaches infinite mass allowing this arrow to destroy the sun by slamming into it and doing something like this.

This both conveniently uses some laws of physics and ignores others, it is still a funny trick you can do without many steps or any class in particular.

Step 1: Meet Pre-reqs
Step 2: Fire Arrow
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit?

Credit: Google, d20 srd, The Internet, and Tebryn for the Youtube video.

[Eldan]

Ah, but...

Is the sun within line of sight? After all, by the spot rules, you can't actually see it!

[dascarletm]

Ah, but...

Is the sun within line of sight? After all, by the spot rules, you can't actually see it!

You don't need to spot things that are not hiding.
"The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it."
Sun is not a creature, and by common sense is not difficult to see.

[The Redwolf]

So...would you say that your arrow will blot out the sun?

[TuggyNE]

You don't need to spot things that are not hiding.
"The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it."
Sun is not a creature, and by common sense is not difficult to see.

This is efficiently belied by the example in the Using Skills summary: "Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)".

[jaybird]

So...would you say that your arrow will blot out the sun?

Beautiful

[nedz]

But the OP's requirement was :-

...preferably before epic levels needed.

[dascarletm]

This is efficiently belied by the example in the Using Skills summary: "Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)".

That already includes circumstance modifiers, and the sort. It isn't a base to apply modifiers to. It is a flat number for all things in plain sight, just like the tracking example. It already is modified to the total.

[TuggyNE]

That already includes circumstance modifiers, and the sort. It isn't a base to apply modifiers to. It is a flat number for all things in plain sight, just like the tracking example. It already is modified to the total.

Devil's advocate here: so PCs can auto-spot anything that's in plain sight, no matter how far away it is or how small it might be? They can look at the moon and auto-examine the details of the dust patterns in the smallest crater? See an aphid crawling on a leaf ten thousand yards away? Or more mundanely, read small print from across a room?

No, realistically, distance does matter, and so does size; the current Spot rules just have the wrong scaling factors. (Severely wrong.) Saying "oh there's no scaling needed most of the time" is just flat-out inaccurate, and honestly isn't even that good an approximation.

[elonin]

Do we really have to destroy the sun? It would be much easier to affect the atmosphere of the earth.

[dascarletm]

Devil's advocate here: so PCs can auto-spot anything that's in plain sight, no matter how far away it is or how small it might be? They can look at the moon and auto-examine the details of the dust patterns in the smallest crater? See an aphid crawling on a leaf ten thousand yards away? Or more mundanely, read small print from across a room?

large and in plain sight. Large, not being used as a size category in that context, is relative to the viewer. I'd call all those examples technically in plain sight, as there is nothing in the way of it, but I wouldn't call them large.

No, realistically, distance does matter, and so does size; the current Spot rules just have the wrong scaling factors. (Severely wrong.) Saying "oh there's no scaling needed most of the time" is just flat-out inaccurate, and honestly isn't even that good an approximation.

Ideally they'd simplify equations used in real life to determine size of objects at a distance, for long range objects (past X) distance. The current rules are still good for combat distances, or shall I say, dungeon distances.
It would be quicker just to have a DM common sense what you need to roll a spot check on, and what not to. As they were currently meant to.

[Malroth]

Step 1) Be a hulking hurler 3/ Cancer mage 1
Step 2) Equip the planet as a light throwing weapon
Step 3) Hire a NPC caster to cast plane shift on you to some place with no sun

[Eldan]

Hm. That should indeed work.

We could also decrease the Earth's mass, instead of getting an NI strong Hulking Hurler.

[TuggyNE]

Off-topic for Spot rules:

Spoiler

Show

large and in plain sight. Large, not being used as a size category in that context, is relative to the viewer. I'd call all those examples technically in plain sight, as there is nothing in the way of it, but I wouldn't call them large.

Hmm, fair enough. Although spotting a tree trunk a mile away, or a house-sized rock on the other side of a wide canyon, is probably still problematic.

Ideally they'd simplify equations used in real life to determine size of objects at a distance, for long range objects (past X) distance. The current rules are still good for combat distances, or shall I say, dungeon distances.
It would be quicker just to have a DM common sense what you need to roll a spot check on, and what not to. As they were currently meant to.

Indeed, except... why are they such horrible approximations in any case? A much better approximation is not hard, involving, say, a chart similar to the current carrying capacity (although obviously scaled slightly differently).

And, of course, I'm generally in favor of making the rules slightly more complex as long as they capture situations well. (That is, "the DM can just fudge it" is not much of an excuse IMO in the case of D&D.)

Back on topic, and vaguely related to size-changing shenanigans: the Earth is roughly 1.096e+21 m³ in volume, or about 3.870e+22 ft³. Shrink item can manage 2 ft³/level, and PaO improves that to 100 ft³/level, but both require astronomically-high caster levels* to be effective. Any other possibilities?

*I swear I'm not obsessing about NI CL. It's just a coincidence that so many suggestions require it!

[2xMachina]

But the OP's requirement was :-

(non epic)

So... play Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold. True Dragons* get access to epic feats. But min lvl 17, without cheese to get extra skill lvl.

*RAW, may or may not be true, so get your DM to clear it. Yay to no internet arguments.

[North_Ranger]

Option 1: Kill/Capture the god(dess) of the Sun.

Option 2: Epic teleport on the Sun, send it into the void between stars.

Option 3: Invest in an atmospheric parasol and block out the sun.

[Rubik]

Summon Nightmare Moon or cast Imprisonment on Princess Celestia? Hope neither make their saving throws.

[Archmage1]

So... From OP, he wants to take over the world, and wants to remove the sun to deal with... Light blindness? Assuming you come up slowly, and carefully, you are dazzled, so a -1 to attack, search, and spot.
Perhaps a more localized solution would be a better plan:
Control weather, cloud cover.
Dominate the enemies leaders
Just move at night, instead of the day.
Use Darkness to create a barrier overhead for the day, assuming you are not moving.
Use polymorph any object to create a sun-destroying weapon of some sort, or create a barrier to block the light.

Sundark goggles, for immunity to light blindness for 10 gold might be a better option.

Really, unless you are leading an army of vampires/wraiths, you don't want to destroy the sun, which will kill everyone within ten years...

[Slipperychicken]

Well here is something simple I have seen passed around in the past, and someone more skilled in Physics than I may have to back me up or disprove me, but here is the idea:

All you need is a single Epic feat, Far Shot

It doesn't say anything about overriding the maximum range rules, although that's clearly the RAI...

[DeusMortuusEst]

Well here is something simple I have seen passed around in the past, and someone more skilled in Physics than I may have to back me up or disprove me, but here is the idea:

All you need is a single Epic feat, Far Shot



Now, all you have to do is wait until the sun is out, aim your longbow at it and loose an arrow. Now due to silly D&D math that arrow should arrive by the end of the round (~6sec). Since the sun is about 92,960,000 miles away, then the arrow is traveling at roughly 92960000/6 = 15,493,333 MILES PER SEC.

A simple Google search tells me that the speed of light is a mere 186,282 miles per sec. So, this arrow (glossing over a lot of physics D&D doesn't account for) is traveling at roughly 83 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT.

As something approaches light speed it also approaches infinite mass allowing this arrow to destroy the sun by slamming into it and doing something like this.

This both conveniently uses some laws of physics and ignores others, it is still a funny trick you can do without many steps or any class in particular.

Step 1: Meet Pre-reqs
Step 2: Fire Arrow
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit?

Credit: Google, d20 srd, The Internet, and Tebryn for the Youtube video.

Problem with this is that as you fire the arrow it will cause an explosion at least as powerful as every nuke on earth, possibly worse as well, due to the speed with which it travels. So, disregarding the fact that the arrow should break in flight, you can probably destroy the sun with it, but in doing so you're also killing everything on earth as well.

[Sponson]

Problem with this is that as you fire the arrow it will cause an explosion at least as powerful as every nuke on earth, possibly worse as well, due to the speed with which it travels. So, disregarding the fact that the arrow should break in flight, you can probably destroy the sun with it, but in doing so you're also killing everything on earth as well.

Thats the deal with the peasant rail gun isn't it? You slam the wooden arrow at 83 times the speed of light into the sun and do, what, 1d8 points of damage? There are no rules for what happens if a player character somehow exerts all the energy of the known universe. How much HP does the sun have as an object? DnD doesn't calculate damage based on velocity and force. Falling damage is 1d6 for every 10 ft, yet a jumplomancer who can jump 380 ft takes no damage from jumping (and then conversely, landing), but will take a butt ton of d6 damage if he fell from that height normally.

[Axier]

I think it would be easier to just block out the sun with weather. Turn any major surface outpost into a place where it always rains, or is at least always cloudy.

Then, you build suits to handle the areas with the sun on it.

Of course, what does an ilithid actually have against the sun?

Light levels can be negated with a simple kobold invention, the sunglasses sundark goggles.

Heat can be mitigated by living in cities in cold climates, and using magic of endure elements to venture fourth.

That is really the only problems I can think of... Besides, this way you can keep your herd of brain food kept in the environments they can live in, and ship them into your dark, cold citidels on the surface.

[nedz]

Burn the sky! Move your entire civilisation under ground powered by the thermal energy their bodies produce as they lie trapped in their cocoons.

Only then can you have the cool sundark goggles.

[killem2]

I know it's risky, but, couldn't you wish the sun's destruction?

I'm not sure the back fire but surely if you are wanting to destroy the sun you don't care that much for humanity as it exists right?

lol

[Axier]

I know it's risky, but, couldn't you wish the sun's destruction?

I'm not sure the back fire but surely if you are wanting to destroy the sun you don't care that much for humanity as it exists right?

lol

Humans tend to be much easier to controll than the other species. Also, since a "free mind" tastes better, it would be concievable to develop a distopian society that assumed it is free, untill around age 30, when they "die" and are consumed for their brain. You then take the rest of the body and make soylent green to feed your "free herd".

A few traps of mindrape or programed amnesia will take care of creating a new society. You spend a few centuries creating a new culture and you start building your great herd. Then you just deal with the sun with mundane countermeasures.

[The Redwolf]

Thats the deal with the peasant rail gun isn't it? You slam the wooden arrow at 83 times the speed of light into the sun and do, what, 1d8 points of damage? There are no rules for what happens if a player character somehow exerts all the energy of the known universe. How much HP does the sun have as an object? DnD doesn't calculate damage based on velocity and force. Falling damage is 1d6 for every 10 ft, yet a jumplomancer who can jump 380 ft takes no damage from jumping (and then conversely, landing), but will take a butt ton of d6 damage if he fell from that height normally.

I forget where, but they do have rules somewhere for an object that's moving slamming into another one, and I believe it isn't based off of speed but weight. As the arrow goes at that speed it becomes infinitely massive, which means it deals infinitely much damage on the impact.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Thats the deal with the peasant rail gun isn't it? You slam the wooden arrow at 83 times the speed of light into the sun and do, what, 1d8 points of damage? There are no rules for what happens if a player character somehow exerts all the energy of the known universe. How much HP does the sun have as an object? DnD doesn't calculate damage based on velocity and force. Falling damage is 1d6 for every 10 ft, yet a jumplomancer who can jump 380 ft takes no damage from jumping (and then conversely, landing), but will take a butt ton of d6 damage if he fell from that height normally.

Yes, normally it wouldn't work at all, but now Roaan assumed that we had some semblance of normal physics in the world we're discussing. We're still ignoring the fact that the arrow would evaporate after a few milliseconds, essentially just creating a giant explosion that probably never would reach the sun at all.

[Sponson]

Yes, normally it wouldn't work at all, but now Roaan assumed that we had some semblance of normal physics in the world we're discussing. We're still ignoring the fact that the arrow would evaporate after a few milliseconds, essentially just creating a giant explosion that probably never would reach the sun at all.

Are we also ignoring the fact that a bow could never be strung that hard without it snapping?

I mean, the physics part seems very... arbitrary, considering all of DnD is a set of rules to describe physics in a manner which is playable.

The sword does 1d6 not because it's a sword, but because you're swinging it. An abstract construction of physics. So which parts of the rules are being deconstructed to allow for real physics to take over? It would seem pretty important to know ahead of time exactly which rules are being replaced with real-world physics, and which rules are not. Else wise we're discussing a pretty moot thing, because we have no idea what is allowed to be fudged.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Are we also ignoring the fact that a bow could never be strung that hard without it snapping?

I mean, the physics part seems very... arbitrary, considering all of DnD is a set of rules to describe physics in a manner which is playable.

The sword does 1d6 not because it's a sword, but because you're swinging it. An abstract construction of physics. So which parts of the rules are being deconstructed to allow for real physics to take over? It would seem pretty important to know ahead of time exactly which rules are being replaced with real-world physics, and which rules are not. Else wise we're discussing a pretty moot thing, because we have no idea what is allowed to be fudged.

Yes, if you had read his post you wouldn't have to ask:

This both conveniently uses some laws of physics and ignores others, it is still a funny trick you can do without many steps or any class in particular.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know it's risky, but, couldn't you wish the sun's destruction?

I'm not sure the back fire but surely if you are wanting to destroy the sun you don't care that much for humanity as it exists right?

lol

Asked and answered, but again no.

That's completely outside the bounds of wish's power. Even the divine salient ability alter reality probably can't do this unless it's on a sun god, who would have a rather vested interest in very much not doing that.

Wish can go beyond the safe list, just not that far beyond it.