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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Having re-read the spell, it will only work if the Sun is a 20' cube, curses.
    p = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreaz View Post
    It fails to consider two things though.
    1) The sun is not on fire
    2) Pyrotechnics doesn't consume the entire fire if it is "significantly large". I'd consider coronas with jets the size of planets significantly large.
    Yea your right. After I posted that I looked up pyrotechnics.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Any solution that involves extinguishing it "eventually" won't be any faster than waiting for it to die out on its own in 5 billion years as it uses up its own nuclear fuel "eventually". The sun is big.

    Teleport is limited by your maximum load. With a strength of 394 you could carry the earth as a heavy load and teleport the planet to another location.

    A way to keep the earth warm after the sun is gone would be helpful too.

    An alternate solution would be something to block the sun.

    Hmm... still thinking.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    I'm not really great at these things, but couldn't you teleport to the sun with a pretty decent chance of failure, if you are immune to the suns heat, release your sphere of annihilation. If you are worried about missing it and being stuck in space, sure you can prepare a slew of wands to try to teleport again and again. right?

    If not I fail :P
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Any solution that involves extinguishing it "eventually" won't be much faster than waiting for it to die out on its own in 5 billion years as it uses up its own nuclear fuel "eventually". The sun is big.

    A way to keep the earth warm after the sun is gone would be helpful too.

    An alternate solution would be something to block the sun.

    Hmm... still thinking.
    Well, draining it away in the gate mode is certainly viable. if you make a large gate (say the size of asia) it'll be noticeable within mere years, and it'll dim signifnicantly over a few hundred thousand years.

    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post
    I'm not really great at these things, but couldn't you teleport to the sun with a pretty decent chance of failure, if you are immune to the suns heat, release your sphere of annihilation. If you are worried about missing it and being stuck in space, sure you can prepare a slew of wands to try to teleport again and again. right?

    If not I fail :P
    This is the same as the gate... The sphere is just too small.
    Last edited by Andreaz; 2012-10-02 at 02:55 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    If you can make a gate the size of asia why can't you make a gate the size of the sun? Asia isn't exactly a standard size for a magical effect. That's why 99.999% of those solutions aren't going to work. You'd need an awfully precise amount of semi-infiniteness for "eventually" to be something to consider rather than "right away" or "practically never".

    Strength 394 + teleport the earth seems workable. Has char op gotten 394 strength without pun pun?
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    If you can make a gate the size of asia why can't you make a gate the size of the sun? Asia isn't exactly a standard size for a magical effect. That's why 99.999% of those solutions aren't going to work. You'd need an awfully precise amount of semi-infiniteness for "eventually" to be something to consider rather than "right away" or "practically never".
    No reason at all. I'm just scaling slowly from the humanoid reference, where stuff you'd call "mother****ing huge" is just as much a grain to the sun as you are.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    How are you going to get within a few hundred feet of the Sun's core? Also, the Sphere only sucks in matter it comes in direct contact with at a time. Even if it continues to suck in more and more of the sun, it can only destroy about 170 square feet of the sun at a time. Even if the sphere destroys its own surface area of the sun 1,000,000,000 times a second you won't even see the sun destroyed in your lifetime if you are a dwarf.
    I have a feeling it's going to destroy a lot more matter than that in a second. You're essentially creating a vacuum in the center of the sun. That's the point where two opposing forces--gravity and nuclear fusion--are at their strongest. All of a sudden, nuclear fusion stops resisting, and actually starts working with gravity. Now you have the entire energy of a star set to the singular task of putting as much matter into that space as fast as possible.

    However, the length of time it takes is not going to be the biggest issue for your underdark race. At some point before the sun goes out, enough mass will have disappeared that gravity will lose to nuclear explosion. The star will supernova, and the world the underdark race wants to take over will vaporize.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Depending on exactly how the sun and cosmology in general work on this planet...

    Shaper psion to create quintessence. Why destroy when you can save it for later?

    Plasma has no hardness per RAW, just do massive hp damage.

    Maybe it is just a colossal+ elemental and banish it.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    ericgrau

    Take a level of cancer Mage, get festering anger, go to a plane with slow time or no time trait.

    Wait a thousand days.

    You are now a wizard with 2000 strength.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Just what is the Sun ?

    I know that, in reality, its a large ball of plasma; but what is it in D&D terms ?
    I had assumed fire because, well...

    In certain mythos the Sun is a Deities chariot, or even just a Deity.
    p = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    Shaper psion to create quintessence. Why destroy when you can save it for later?
    One ounce of a dollop of thick gooey substance. Let's suppose it's enough to cover a cellphone, or 0,0206374m.
    That's 0,0000000206374km per casting. Covering the sun with that would take 294 billions of billions of castings, or 15 billion years. The sun would die twice before you managed that.

    (this assumes the psion uses 100% of every time ever to create quintessence, without stopping for any reason)
    Last edited by Andreaz; 2012-10-02 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    @Andreaz, that is why I prefaced my comments as I did (cosmology, etc). There is no guarantee a D&D sun is in any way the same as our sun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Strength 394 + teleport the earth seems workable. Has char op gotten 394 strength without pun pun?
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreaz View Post
    One ounce of a dollop of thick gooey substance. Let's suppose it's enough to cover a cellphone, or 0,0206374m.
    That's 0,0000000206374km per casting. Covering the sun with that would take 294 billions of billions of castings, or 15 billion years. The sun would die twice before you managed that.

    (this assumes the psion uses 100% of every time ever to create quintessence, without stopping for any reason)
    But a billion psions could do it in a mere 15 years!

    Also, for the 'removing material from the core' plan, lets just assume that material flows through the sphere of annihilation at lightspeed. The sphere is 2ft in diameter, which is roughly 0.5 meters. So its surface area is 0.2 m^2. If material flows in at the speed of light, 3x10^8 m/s, you get 6x10^7 m^3/s of volume flux. The volume of the sun is 1.4x10^27 m^3. So this takes 740 million years to drain the sun of its volume. You're probably going to need to get rid of at least a hundredth of it to make it supernova (and more likely a tenth), so you're still waiting 7.4 million years for anything interesting to happen.
    Last edited by NichG; 2012-10-02 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Or you could have the same Billion Psions cover the earth with quintessence in a single day and have some method to remove the quintessence once the sun burns out

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    But a billion psions could do it in a mere 15 years!

    Also, for the 'removing material from the core' plan, lets just assume that material flows through the sphere of annihilation at lightspeed. The sphere is 2ft in diameter, which is roughly 0.5 meters. So its surface area is 0.2 m^2. If material flows in at the speed of light, 3x10^8 m/s, you get 6x10^7 m^3/s of volume flux. The volume of the sun is 1.4x10^27 m^3. So this takes 740 million years to drain the sun of its volume. You're probably going to need to get rid of at least a hundredth of it to make it supernova (and more likely a tenth), so you're still waiting 7.4 million years for anything interesting to happen.
    With gate and assuming light speed (which is probably a bit much):
    20 feet diameter. So, we move one cylinder 3x10^8m long and about 6.1 wide through every second.
    pi*3.05^2*3*10^8=87673996998 cubic meters per second.

    Or very nearly1.6*10^17 seconds. Or about 5.1 billion years.

    So, not without chain-gating sun-gating solars. And a short calculation shows that even with exponentially growing numbers of both solar-gating and sun-gating solars, it would still take a while.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Many of these ideas, while brilliant, have some drawbacks. Due to gravity, you will probably need there to be the same amount of mass in the sun, while having it be in about the same location. My best theory is to attempt to block it out, which you could do with Darkness-related spells.

    Here's a little fact for you, just in case: in the Epic Level Handbook, there is a spell that creates an eclipse, which will block out the sun for you. Now I know that this is Epic, so you may not want it, but it's still a pretty useful thing to know. If it's not already permanent, you will have to design it differently to make it that way, which could make it too powerful for you to cast. However, with permanent spells, you can simply increase the casting time to make it easier for you (Epic magic is a complicated, and very different magic system, so I'm sorry if you don't know what I'm referring to).

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    For a permanent way to block out the sun within a 5 mile radius, the Spellcraft DC is 450 without Mitigating factors.

    Because it's permanent, the DC for everything before duration is counted is 90, any increase here increases the total DC by 5. In order to destroy the sun, I'd assume you needed an Epic Spell with the DC of at least 1000.
    If the sun is positive energy, based on it's ability to destroy certain undead, I'd guess this...

    Negative Energy function of the Slay Seed.
    250d4 Negative Levels (to hit at least 1000 levels of energy)
    A range of up to 4965840000000 feet, to hit our sun.
    Fortitude save DC is 1000 to compete with what I'd assume a star would have, not to beat, just be equal.
    Caster Level check is also 1000 to compete with the Spell Resistance a star could have.

    So, time to break down the Spellcraft DCs.
    2d4 Negative Levels: 25
    248d4 Negative Levels: 992
    Increase Range from 300 feet to 4965840000000 feet: 33105599998
    Increase Save by 950: 1900
    Increase Caster Level check to overcome Spell Resistance: 1900
    Final DC: 33105604815

    And this only works if the sun fails it's Spell Resistance and Fortitude Save rolls. Also no mitigating factors were counted in creating this spell.

    The development cost of this spell would be.
    297950443335000gp
    59590008867 days
    11918017733400exp

    Maybe a 40th Level Character shouldn't try casting this alone, or try getting some more levels first. Most of the DC for this Spell actually comes from the range and that's assuming the sun is on par with ours for how far away it is from our world. It can be done, but you'd better hope your DM brings it a little closer to the world and makes it into a mere burning ball of positive energy radiation. 1000d100 is a low amount as well, hopefully whoever's DMing will be as generous as I'm being, otherwise I don't see it being possible for a PC.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Use the legion trick (essentially a character that clones himself exactly every other round or so), doubling mass every other round (this assumes character/clone survival once the mass becomes large).

    Given 2000 rounds mass should be 10^10 times greater than the sun. I'm guessing black hold level somewhere around here?

    A black hole of this magnitude would destroy the earth ... I mean sun even if it takes the earths position.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Hm. Could the sun be collapsed into a black hole somehow by putting pressure on it from the outside?

    How many walls of force do you need to build a vaguely spherical object around the sun?
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    hmm I recall there is a spell to bring "eternal night" to the world. I don't remember the specifics of the spell ( ie where I saw it, area of effect ).

    I do remember it was a ritual that required the spell cast origin to be a specific spot where no life form has been within 10 miles of that point within the last 10 or 100 years ( don't remember which ). The spell when completed brought night to the land, til the "crossed swords" at the spell's point of origin was disturbed.

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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    How can you destroy what you cannot see?
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Hm. Could the sun be collapsed into a black hole somehow by putting pressure on it from the outside?
    To make it into a black hole you just need to feed it, well quite a lot of food really.
    p = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    To make it into a black hole you just need to feed it, well quite a lot of food really.
    In another thread they are making demiplanes of candy and coffee. Would that work?
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    To make it into a black hole you just need to feed it, well quite a lot of food really.
    True, but I think we want to keep the orbit stable, so I don't want to feed it any more mass. Just make it a bit more compact.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    I think most of these ideas while fun to toss around fail to really take into account the scope of the sun.

    It's already been pointed out that it's to large for any kind of gate/teleport/black hole shenanigans.

    As far as teleporting to the core for any kind of trick:

    The core of the sun is 27 million degrees Fahrenheit, I think it's fair to say that your average immunity to fire spell isn't really going to be sufficient to protect you.

    Now for the sake of funsies let's say it does protect you. The pressure in the center of the sun is a paltry 340 billion times the pressure on earth which is going to cause anything you actually manage to pull if to simply cease to be immediately.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    This has quite a few steps, but should be possible.


    Step 1: Obtain sufficient caster levels for Step 2. This could be calculated using Wolfram Alpha
    Step 2: Get close to the sun without dying. Some way to avoid gravity and getting fire immunity could be important.
    Step 3: Catch a piece of plasma or w/e from the sun and preserve it inside something. I'm sure there are ways to do this with magic.
    Step 3: Cast Animate Objects on the Sun
    Step 4: Cast Permanency on the Sun. The Sun is now a creature.
    Step 5: Create a demiplane of snow with a Sun sized object inside that is the size of the sun.
    Step 6: Cast Ice Assassin on your sun sized snowball.
    Step 7: Give your Anti-Sun immunity to Fire
    Step 8: Send your Anti-Sun back to the material plane
    Step 9: Sit back and watch the greatest fight ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterOfJello View Post
    This has quite a few steps, but should be possible.


    Step 1: Obtain sufficient caster levels for Step 2. This could be calculated using Wolfram Alpha
    Step 2: Get close to the sun without dying. Some way to avoid gravity and getting fire immunity could be important.
    Step 3: Catch a piece of plasma or w/e from the sun and preserve it inside something. I'm sure there are ways to do this with magic.
    Step 3: Cast Animate Objects on the Sun
    Step 4: Cast Permanency on the Sun. The Sun is now a creature.
    Step 5: Create a demiplane of snow with a Sun sized object inside that is the size of the sun.
    Step 6: Cast Ice Assassin on your sun sized snowball.
    Step 7: Give your Anti-Sun immunity to Fire
    Step 8: Send your Anti-Sun back to the material plane
    Step 9: Sit back and watch the greatest fight ever.
    Aside from all the steps you don't have solutions for.. animate object works on 1 small object per caster level such as a chair.
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    Default Re: lets destroy the sun

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    Aside from all the steps you don't have solutions for.. animate object works on 1 small object per caster level such as a chair.
    Or an equivalent number of larger objects. You need a (literally) astronomically high caster level, but it can be done.
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