1. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by tuggyne
Or an equivalent number of larger objects. You need a (literally) astronomically high caster level, but it can be done.
A colossal object counts as 32 objects, even theoretically you couldn't get a high enough caster level to effect the entire sun.

Edit* Well I guess theoretically you could a high enough level but not realistically you couldn't and if you did manage to get to be a 500 billionth level wizard or whatever ridiculous number it would have to be, would you really care about unleashing the underdark on the world? lol

2. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Harry
you could go one level in archmage and get True Creation as a SLA to make a box of electrons with no space between each of the particles, inside the sun.

Electrons repel each other. True Creation creates a 5x5 cube. That's a 5x5 cube of a high amount of (haven't done chem in ages) of particles all suddenly trying to repel each other at once from the atomic equivalent of point blank.

That cube holds 5x5x5 feet, or 125 feet³. One foot ~= 0.3048 meters, so the volume of the cube in meters is about 125 f³ x (0.3048 m/f)³ ~= 3.5396 m³.
Now, the upper limit on the radius of an electron is 10^(-22) m (this depends on who you ask. Obviously there is some question of whether or not you can actually measure this radius. Hush. Since things in D&D occupy 3-space in cube form, I will simplify the calculations by assuming the electron is a cube with radius 10^(-22) m, which is to say a cube of side-length 2 x 10^(-22) m.
Given this, an electron occupies the following volume with our D&D approximation: (2 x 10^(-22) m)³ = 8 x 10^(-66) m³.
We now have enough to do our calculation, which is simple enough: we divide the cube's volume by the electron's volume to get the number of electrons we've created: (3.5396 m³)/(8 x 10^(-66) m³) = 4.4245 x 10^65 electrons.
Note that this number (which because of our D&D "physics" is actually much less than the actual number of spheres you can fit in this cube) is completely ridiculous. For comparison, the number of particles in the universe is estimated to be only a few powers of 10 more than this (somewhere kind of around 10^75).
The charge on a single electron is -1.602 x 10^(-19) Coulombs. Multiply this by the number of electrons you've just made, and you get a total charge of 2.836 x 10^48 C. We need to know more about the environment (and how the particles interact, as Urpriest noted) to know more, but that much charge is outrageous.
The mass involved here is also stupidly huge. Even though each electron has almost negligible mass (about 9.109 x 10^(-31) kg), the sheer number you're dealing with means this cube weighs about 4.03 x 10^35 kg. Compare: the sun weighs about 2 x 10^30 kg. Whoops. The Chandrasekhar Limit (above which point this pile of electrons would become a black hole) is about 1.4 solar masses. This box, then, obviously becomes a black hole (in fact, it becomes Supermassive, with almost 150,000 solar masses). In case you are reluctant to believe this based on a Limit you've never heard of...
The escape velocity from a planet with raduis r and mass m is v = √(2Gm/r). In this case, m = 4 x 10^35 kg, and r = 0.762 m. The gravitational constant, G, is 6.673 x 10^(-11) m³/(kg s²). So the escape velocity from our box is
v = √((2 x (6.673 x 10^(-11) m^3/(kg x s^2)) (4 x 10^35 kg))/0.762 m)
ve = 8.37 x 10^12 m/s. The speed of light e = 2.998 x 10^8 m/s. You got yourself a black hole. 'Gratz.
Finally, there is some chance that the actual volume of an electron is 0 (or infinitely small, at any rate). In this case you would almost certainly destroy the whole plane, because you would never "fill" your cube with electrons, but would rather dump infinite mass (and charge, but I'm not sure that would matter at that point) into your little box. Bye-bye, everything. Hope you cast that as an Astral Projection from a protected demiplane. Maybe that would even save you.

Only problem is not destroying everything else
This must be what it feels like as a fighter to attempt to read a 9th level spell.

All of my what.

3. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Eldan
With gate and assuming light speed (which is probably a bit much):
20 feet diameter. So, we move one cylinder 3x10^8m long and about 6.1 wide through every second.
pi*3.05^2*3*10^8=87673996998 cubic meters per second.

Or very nearly1.6*10^17 seconds. Or about 5.1 billion years.

So, not without chain-gating sun-gating solars. And a short calculation shows that even with exponentially growing numbers of both solar-gating and sun-gating solars, it would still take a while.
There's just something wrong with the idea of using a Solar to kill the Sun...

4. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Duboris
This must be what it feels like as a fighter to attempt to read a 9th level spell.

All of my what.
Nah, that's only one page, so it's a first-level spell, at most. A ninth-level spell would be much, much longer.

5. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel
Nah, that's only one page, so it's a first-level spell, at most. A ninth-level spell would be much, much longer.
That could be a Power Word spell, and the remaining pages are blank.

6. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
That could be a Power Word spell, and the remaining pages are blank.
Power Phrase is the best phrase.
Now Imagine how a geometer writes that down.

7. Re: lets destroy the sun

A colossal object counts as 32 objects, even theoretically you couldn't get a high enough caster level to effect the entire sun.

Edit* Well I guess theoretically you could a high enough level but not realistically you couldn't and if you did manage to get to be a 500 billionth level wizard or whatever ridiculous number it would have to be, would you really care about unleashing the underdark on the world? lol
Greater consumptive field says hi, how ya doin'. Circle magic also inquires after your health.

(For example, use simulacra with GCF to power your circle magic, and amp that up with GCF as well. Sprinkle with suitable means of NI small critters; resetting trap of Maximized Empowered summon monster III, perhaps, or binding Malphas [?] for endless ravens.)

Originally Posted by Andreaz
Power Phrase is the best phrase.
Now Imagine how a geometer writes that down.
QR codes, anyone?

8. Re: lets destroy the sun

IIRC, Tome of Magic has a spell called Eclipse that blocks out the sun all over the world for a while. Find a way to make that permanent.

9. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by tuggyne
Greater consumptive field says hi, how ya doin'. Circle magic also inquires after your health.

(For example, use simulacra with GCF to power your circle magic, and amp that up with GCF as well. Sprinkle with suitable means of NI small critters; resetting trap of Maximized Empowered summon monster III, perhaps, or binding Malphas [?] for endless ravens.)

QR codes, anyone?
It's still questionable whether animate object would even work on the sun even with this nonsense.

10. Re: lets destroy the sun

A rough calculation revealed about caster level 1380 million to animate object the sun. Assuming you can go above size colossal. Otherwise you only need caster level 32 .

11. Re: lets destroy the sun

(Some long-ass quote about an Epic spell to "kill" the sun)
I once designed a character (he was almost completely unplayable, however) that possessed utter control over an army of a few million Vampires who were also very high-level Mystic Theurges. When they weren't conquering the very multiverse itself, he had them craft magic items on his nearly infinite and equally impenetrable demiplane. He was a demilich, who I believe either had an amulet based on Rope Trick, that could hold the items in an extradimensional space, thus "holding" them, or had them all piled up around his Phylactery, which yielded the same effect. These magic items were all Wonderous Items that didn't take up a space on the body, were smaller than a grain of sand, and granted a +1 on Spellcraft checks each.

SO, with a few million bonuses to Spellcraft, as well as the ritual part, having all the spellcasting Vampires donate their many spell slots to him, he was able to do just about anything via the most powerful of Epic spells ever conceived. This is the only way that I see possible to beat those DCs and "kill" the sun.

12. Re: lets destroy the sun

Alright, so after some very rounded numbers, yeah, even if a sphere of annihilation destroyed its surface area one billion times a second, you would be waiting over five thousand years.

13. Re: lets destroy the sun

The problem with the core of the sun is the gravitational force. Gravitational force = pressure right? We would be worried about the enormous pressure exerted on the fleshy bits right? If you could creatively interpret the domain power of the Blackwater domain, that may work.

There are many ways to get fire immunity, so I won't bother. Assuming there is no radiation mechanic in DnD (and I'm not aware of one but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist) we should be fine here.

Necklace of adaptation would protect us from the vacuum and allow us to breathe.

To destroy the sun, I see two routes to go, make it alive and either imprison or gaes/quest it, or the more fun route. All we should have to do is destroy the sun's core since the core is what feeds the sun. The core is roughly 1/4 the size of the whole sun or roughly 347,500 km. Much easier to manage. It also consists entirely of gasses in a plasma state. Super dense gas yes, but still gasses.

Even if we could teleport into the center of the sun, these gasses would blow us around like a toothpick in a tornado. So we use control winds to direct these solar winds around us, and airwalk or fly to move in this calm air bubble we have created.

Since scientists have determined that the sun is the most spherical object ever observed naturally (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...-sphere-nature) getting to the exact center wouldn't be an issue. Then cast Reverse Gravity to create a gravitational pocket to collapse the sun. It will become infinately small before imploding into a black hole. Before this happens, using control winds to force the now focused gas streams into a single direction, force the mini sun into a bag of holding, portable hole, whatever extra dimensional object or place you wish.

Few problems if you could get something like this to work: enjoy freezing to death, now nothing can see what is hunting them in the dark, and finally my favorite; divine intervention.
Off the top of my head... I don't have any of the books at my disposal to look at anything other than srd (I'm not at home.) Did I miss anything?

Also, remember that because this is a game, super manipulation of real world mechanics and game mechanics may not be needed. Any input from the DM on how the sun works in his/her campaign?

14. Re: lets destroy the sun

What about gate plus genesis? Make a plane where everything in it is just ridiculously dense. Then gate it into/next to the sun. Your plane has now om nom nomed the sun.
Course Earth is gonna get sucked in too, or tossed into space now that it's gravity well is on another plane of existence.

15. Re: lets destroy the sun

I was going to say just hit it with a lot of disintegrates, but that would take a very long time and you would have to be really close. The Spelljammer could destroy the sun with some Spheres of Annihilation (since it can make them), but then you would need to give it to the aberrations.

16. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Crazysaneman
Crazy anti-gravity based theory
A few things. Mainly, 'Solar Winds' are not real winds that could be controlled by the Control Winds spell, by a far margin. Its just a term to describe what they act like. Since your in vaccum, there is no gas (plasma is a different state of matter) for Control Winds to target and manipulate, so there goes your saftey bubble. Even if you could target the 'solar winds' with Control Winds, you'd need absurd CL to drop the intensity to something you could survive.

Not to mention that even if that worked, you wouldn't stop the gravity from smooshing you into a pinprick. Just because the plasma isn't pushing on you doesn't mean your body isn't pushing on the rest of itself. A single strand of your hair would smoosh you with the kind of numbers we are talking about.

17. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by navar100
IIRC, Tome of Magic has a spell called Eclipse that blocks out the sun all over the world for a while. Find a way to make that permanent.
But Eclipse only blocks out the sun for a five mile radius and as I've already stated, a permanent Eclipse would have a Spellcraft DC of 450. To affect a larger area, reduce the DC to 90, make the modifications and multiply by 5.

Originally Posted by karkus
I once designed a character (he was almost completely unplayable, however) that possessed utter control over an army of a few million Vampires who were also very high-level Mystic Theurges. When they weren't conquering the very multiverse itself, he had them craft magic items on his nearly infinite and equally impenetrable demiplane. He was a demilich, who I believe either had an amulet based on Rope Trick, that could hold the items in an extradimensional space, thus "holding" them, or had them all piled up around his Phylactery, which yielded the same effect. These magic items were all Wonderous Items that didn't take up a space on the body, were smaller than a grain of sand, and granted a +1 on Spellcraft checks each.

SO, with a few million bonuses to Spellcraft, as well as the ritual part, having all the spellcasting Vampires donate their many spell slots to him, he was able to do just about anything via the most powerful of Epic spells ever conceived. This is the only way that I see possible to beat those DCs and "kill" the sun.
I'm guessing the only thing that could possibly beat a character who can will the sun out of existence, is Pun Pun.

The few options we have so far are so bad, they're not worth using. An Epic Spell with a DC so high, for a character to get it by level alone, an equal level Commoner could just kick the ground and destroy the world. A few ways a 17th level caster could destroy it, just, not within their lifetimes, or their childrens', or their childrens' children... Then there's the create a black hole option, like that wouldn't end badly.

Looks like the best option really is to cast a permanent Eclipse every 4 miles.

18. Re: lets destroy the sun

Plasma does not exist in RAW.
Therefore the Sun does not exist.

Alternatively the Sun is made of something else.

19. Re: lets destroy the sun

To block out the sun without using the kind of cheese that grants limitless power you cast summon plot device.

20. Re: lets destroy the sun

But Eclipse only blocks out the sun for a five mile radius and as I've already stated, a permanent Eclipse would have a Spellcraft DC of 450. To affect a larger area, reduce the DC to 90, make the modifications and multiply by 5.

I'm guessing the only thing that could possibly beat a character who can will the sun out of existence, is Pun Pun.

The few options we have so far are so bad, they're not worth using. An Epic Spell with a DC so high, for a character to get it by level alone, an equal level Commoner could just kick the ground and destroy the world. A few ways a 17th level caster could destroy it, just, not within their lifetimes, or their childrens', or their childrens' children... Then there's the create a black hole option, like that wouldn't end badly.

Looks like the best option really is to cast a permanent Eclipse every 4 miles.
You're forgetting the freeze the sun with a breath weapon option. that's extremely simple.

21. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by ericgrau
To block out the sun without using the kind of cheese that grants limitless power you cast summon plot device.
This is probably the only suggestion in this whole entire thing I consider Feasible that I can, without mathematical knowledge, understand.

You win.

22. Re: lets destroy the sun

Defeat the sun god? Most d&d universes has a guy that grants the sun-domain. I'll assume defeating him/her will end the sun.

23. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Harry
A: find a way to go to the elemental plane of water.

B:find a way to cast gate and keep it up permanently. (gate plus permanency is one way)

C:find a way to automatically leave the elemental plane.

First go to the elemental plane, then open up a gate to the sun. The infinite water of the plane should take out all the fire and plasma and heat of the sun....eventually.

The way to leave the plane automatically is because you don't want to be sucked into the sun.

That's one way to do it.
Wouldn't work, let these fine people explain.

24. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou
Defeat the sun god? Most d&d universes has a guy that grants the sun-domain. I'll assume defeating him/her will end the sun.
That's genius, killing a god with it's own stats is far simpler than anything without stats.

25. Re: lets destroy the sun

That's genius, killing a god with it's own stats is far simpler than anything without stats.
Aye, and if we're going by Romes standards its as easy as rigging a cart.

26. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Tebryn

No I meant this one.

Originally Posted by Harry
Certain of the metabreath feats in the Draconomicon allow you stack their effects without limit,

but increases the recovery times between uses of your breath weapon each time you apply the feat.

As such some creature with a breath weapon could stack the Enlarge Breath feat ad nauseam to engulf the entire star in a massive energystorm,

though at the cost of probably never using their breath weapon ever again, but that's the price one has to pay for destroying the sun.

Get the half dragon (white) template get the feats enlarge breath and clinging breath and lingering breath.

Enlarge Breath is a metabreath feat that explicitly allows itself to stack any number of times. Each time you do it, you get to increase the range of your power by 50% in exchange for waiting another round for your breath weapon to recover.

For something the size of the sun, it will need a stupid amount of stacks of Enlarge Breath (best just stack it infinitly), and then you can't use your breath weapon ever again.

lingering breath allows us to leave behind a cloud that deals half the damage of the original attack (2d6 now) in the same area. The cost is two rounds of cooldown per one round of duration added. Since half of infinity is infinity it lasts forever (or as long as you want depending)

End result:The sun becomes a giant ice cube in the sky.

27. Re: lets destroy the sun

Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't you just Metamorphosis into a star and Greater Teleport, Psionic directly into the sun?

Requirements of Metamorphosis -
1. Non-unique (stars are pretty common)
2. Size from Fine to Colossal (Colossal is 64 ft. or more and/or 125 tons or more)
3. Must be familiar with it (easy enough to know about the sun)

Requirements of Greater Teleport, Psionic -
1. Must have a reliable description of the place you are teleporting

End result, enough mass to cause some major havoc fairly quickly. Even then the timespan for true sun death isn't even close to a regular lifetime (I think) so then depending on DM's ruling several options present themselves.

If you merge with the sun, you can then teleport anywhere in the universe. Another star, a black hole, whatever. If not, you're the same size and occupying the same space, so, I dunno. Turn into a black hole instead and then fission yourself to give extra coverage?

28. Re: lets destroy the sun

Doesn't being on the ethereal plane make you immune to the sun? Different planes and all?

29. Re: lets destroy the sun

Is it so wrong if I'm interested in just, what exactly the sun did?

30. Re: lets destroy the sun

Originally Posted by Duboris
Is it so wrong if I'm interested in just, what exactly the sun did?
It has a powerful deity as a cohort.

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