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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Eargh. It's a correct interpretation, but it's only a partial interpretation.
    Sorry. And thank you for the correction.

    Speaking from personal (and painful) experience, if your missus is anything like mine, wear a groin guard if you do.
    Well I ain't married and I'm just getting into a new relationship, but yes. Yes I will. I'll be getting one anyway since I occassionally LARP and in our group there's a 12-year-old girl who's a really good shooter, but most of her shots end up roughly at the height of my crotch. The only times she's actually hit me though was one in the face and once in the knee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    It's best to always have a spotter just in case, but otherwise parkour and freerunning are things you can teach yourself. I'm doing it with no shortage of success. Like all athletic endeavors just always remember that safety comes first and be aware of your limits. Also, technique is everything. How you move is much more important than how fast/strong the movements are.
    I've looked into parkour in my country and found only one dedicated group to it in Amsterdam, which is sadly a good hundred miles away. Instead though, I can still just practice running and climbing and other things that make up parkour. I read in the wiki article that swimming is also one of the eight or ten parts or so? Might be that I'm mistaken about that and that is moreso part of its predecessors, but I already got all the basic swimming diplomas down. The only way to continue with that would be diving with equipment or rescue swimming.

    Edit: If you do decide to take up the running arts, make sure you learn to fall properly first. A video clip just reminded me of the importance of that skill. Falling properly is the most essential skill in any athletic art where falling is largely unavoidable in the ultimate sense. Fortunately, it'll be one of the very first things you're taught in any grappling intensive martial art.
    Gotcha! That makes judo a very good suggestion in combo with parkour. They might teach proper falling in karate too though, but I'd have to ask my sister. Does anyone know if proper falling techniques are taught in any non-grappling martial arts?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Both a brawler and a martial artist will be willing to collapse trachea, puncture eyes, dislocate knees, rupture testicles and in general be willing to do what need be done to survive a back alley ambush. The martial artist however, would be aware that a back alley is a dumb place to walk alone at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and take the street instead. Who really wins?
    Indeed. Only when necessary would I take a back alley. Though considering I live in a pretty small town (at least compared to cities or American towns) I don't need to worry about that. Thankfully too, since this is the first time I've actually gotten afraid for my testicles. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post

    Also, I have a friend who served a little while in the Israeli army, and he suggests that Krav Maga is about as good as it gets as far as actually being able to severely harm someone that attacks you.

    Edit in response to Brother Oni: I definitely don't recommend Krav Maga. It's about really hurting people and it's only good if self-defense at any cost is what you're going for.
    Being able to severely harm someone is about mental state, aggressiveness, and generally not getting frozen by hormones and stuff, then about being able to overwhelm opponent physically.

    There's not much more that Krav Maga can do in this regard compared to solid full-contact sparring, and for the whole hype it has, there are just as much bulllshido Krav Maga classes as of the all other stuff.


    I disagree. It's entirely possible to instruct the framework without sparring.
    What exactly would be 'framework" useful for in actual fight?

    His point is entirely valid, no matter what is one training, doing forms in air, or in some set exercises doesn't prepare for practical use of it.

    That's why "knife defenses" on karate demonstration etc. being shown here and there are completely laughable, for simple example.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2012-10-08 at 03:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inexorabletruth View Post
    Oddly, a horseman's morningstar isn't a flail. It's a single metal rod with a morningstar mallet on the end, tipped with a spike. They're extremely dangerous in the right hands, but not as hard to wield as a flail. As a summer job, she used to twirl maces at renaissance festivals. It was very cool. I wish I could find that action shot of her catching her mace after hurling it almost 15 feet in the air. It was a little gut wrenching, but she aced it like a champ.
    I... Should have known that. Honestly, I was thinking about a spiked metal ball, rather than any chain versus bar.

    And I've seen the mace hurling! I can't do it. I freak out about the notion of the harder I throw it, the harder it comes down. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I've looked into parkour in my country and found only one dedicated group to it in Amsterdam, which is sadly a good hundred miles away. Instead though, I can still just practice running and climbing and other things that make up parkour. I read in the wiki article that swimming is also one of the eight or ten parts or so? Might be that I'm mistaken about that and that is moreso part of its predecessors, but I already got all the basic swimming diplomas down. The only way to continue with that would be diving with equipment or rescue swimming.
    Swimming is one of those things that I can do, but I probably couldn't stop save my life in freezing water against a current wearing full clothes. So it makes sense for swimming to be practiced a little more aggressively.
    Perhaps you could find a playground and just monkey through it? I used to do that.

    Gotcha! That makes judo a very good suggestion in combo with parkour. They might teach proper falling in karate too though, but I'd have to ask my sister. Does anyone know if proper falling techniques are taught in any non-grappling martial arts?
    Aikido does falling. Wrestling as well, and some stunt-acting. Some karate forms, some of the animal-based Chinese forms maybe... It's pretty hit or miss with the American style stuff, the generic-do which I the same from one school to another, that strip mall karate stuff. Some teach good basics, others don't. Depends on the teacher.

    Indeed. Only when necessary would I take a back alley. Though considering I live in a pretty small town (at least compared to cities or American towns) I don't need to worry about that. Thankfully too, since this is the first time I've actually gotten afraid for my testicles. Thanks.
    It's a wonder people consider testcles a sign of strength. It's like having a video game style weak point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Being able to severely harm someone is about mental state, aggressiveness, and generally not getting frozen by hormones and stuff, then about being able to overwhelm opponent physically.

    There's not much more that Krav Maga can do in this regard compared to solid full-contact sparring, and for the whole hype it has, there are just as much bulllshido Krav Maga classes as of the all other stuff.
    You are missing a key component of mechanical efficiency. Krav maga boasts a move set which is supposed to be economical in situations where other move sets of other arts (including street fighting) are not economical. Not all variables are equal, though. I can't say that economy of motion is worth more or less than willingness to maim, or any amount of technique and aggression can Veronese weight advantage and aggression, for example. I would hazard to say that aggression is probably the most important variable though.

    What exactly would be 'framework" useful for in actual fight?
    [...]
    That's why "knife defenses" on karate demonstration etc. being shown here and there are completely laughable, for simple example.
    personal experience says you're wrong.
    What framework? Understanding escalation of force, leverage points, patterns created by the musculature and footwork which will lead the inexperienced into making the same swing over an over again. Soaking pain and fear under a cold, homicidal fury, cultivating the pride and arrogance that would have you superglue a man's broken fingers into the wrong position to main him, an understanding of how pain affects your physiology an the willingness to roll with it, and muscle memory in shoe bursts so you aren't stuck doing a fifteen-move combo.

    Basically, what you said. Aggression. But also awareness, ovarian fortitude and not realizing how bad one can actually get hurt.

    His point is entirely valid, no matter what is one training, doing forms in air, or in some set exercises doesn't prepare for practical use of it.
    Mere motions, yes. If you are doing it right, then it's also a mental and spiritual exercise. Your body will flail in the air. Your body, guided by your mid and with firm spirit, will be better off than not having trained, and can be as good as if you had sparred. You won't have the same pain tolerance, but that's resistif intake, not output.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-10-08 at 03:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    If a man can't protect his own balls, he shouldn't be trying to protect other people.

    On the subject of Krav Maga: yeah, I'm definitely not going for that. Maybe sometime in the far, far future years from now, but right now most definitely not. What I've heard of it it sounds amazingly effective, but also essentially like a kind of "kill fu".
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    You are missing a key component of mechanical efficiency. Krav maga boasts a move set which is supposed to be economical in situations where other move sets of other arts (including street fighting) are not economical. Not all variables are equal, though. I can't say that economy of motion is worth more or less than willingness to maim, or any amount of technique and aggression can Veronese weight advantage and aggression, for example. I would hazard to say that aggression is probably the most important variable though.
    Any seriously practiced martial art/whatever will be about mechanical efficiency in situations it's supposed to cover.

    If it's not, it's about low level of exercise/trainer/teaching etc., or about generally some fundamental technical silliness of whatever is taught in question.

    Following any move sets is anyway terrible idea in any case, and effective 'self-defense' would be indeed about though-less, automatic ability to choose most economical moves in any given situation.

    So while Krav Maga can boast about being 'most economical' and what not, it will anyway always depend on particular class/teacher/practitioner.


    Mere motions, yes. If you are doing it right, then it's also a mental and spiritual exercise. Your body will flail in the air. Your body, guided by your mid and with firm spirit, will be better off than not having trained, and can be as good as if you had sparred. You won't have the same pain tolerance, but that's resistif intake, not output.
    Body and what not can absolutely be 'as good' and whatever.

    The whole point of sparring though - being able to do something against actual human being that's unpredictable, resisting, often chaotic, and that presents actual, breathing, intimidating, look in the eyes and what not challenge - is almost impossible to replicate with anything else.

    Air or heavy bag/small banana tree can't cover that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Any seriously practiced martial art/whatever will be about mechanical efficiency in situations it's supposed to cover.

    If it's not, it's about low level of exercise/trainer/teaching etc., or about generally some fundamental technical silliness of whatever is taught in question.

    Following any move sets is anyway terrible idea in any case, and effective 'self-defense' would be indeed about though-less, automatic ability to choose most economical moves in any given situation.

    So while Krav Maga can boast about being 'most economical' and what not, it will anyway always depend on particular class/teacher/practitioner.
    Any seriously practiced martial art will focus on efficiency.
    Krav Maga has a reputation for having a better efficient method:bullpoop ratio.
    If Art A teaches you the best choices under five different suresses, and Art B teaches you those and an additional three duresses, then art B would be able to claim broader application.

    Body and what not can absolutely be 'as good' and whatever.
    Going through physical motions without context absolutely can be as good as goin through physical motions with mindfulness as to context and use? No.
    That's needlessly antagonistic. I meant it as a restructuring o my point, not an accusation. Sorry.


    The whole point of sparring though - being able to do something against actual human being that's unpredictable, resisting, often chaotic, and that presents actual, breathing, intimidating, look in the eyes and what not challenge - is almost impossible to replicate with anything else.

    Air or heavy bag/small banana tree can't cover that.
    You are changing goal posts here. It was never about replicating having someone being unpredictable and intimidating, it was about whether it could yeah you anything. You said, for example, karate knife disarming techniques are bull, and implied you could not learn to counter a knife through kata alone. I know this is untrue. I also said that sparring was good, and it woul help. My point was that cerebral training is not a waste of time. My point is that there is a difference between training, and doing moves in the air.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-10-08 at 04:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I contend it is a colloquialism that doesn't deserve promulgation. I would rather it go away, as it's a very small distinction that only serves to create a false dichotomy. People hear Art versus Fight and they assume that one is superior to the other. Fight is better, and it's more worthwhile in your life to learn how to maim and murder people than it is to be a good person and have the skills to defuse a situation. Schools of good martial artists go out of business while scam artists who hit too hard on the dojo floor "to make it gritty" make a killing by selling themselves as authentic murder dealers.

    All in all, it's an undertaking that can only be detrimental. Whether you're a martial artist or a fighter doesn't come down to how you fight, it's apple and oranges. Both a brawler and a martial artist will be willing to collapse trachea, puncture eyes, dislocate knees, rupture testicles and in general be willing to do what need be done to survive a back alley ambush. The martial artist however, would be aware that a back alley is a dumb place to walk alone at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and take the street instead. Who really wins?

    Martial arts are about more than just the fight itself. It's a meta level thing. Beig aware of when and how a fight can start. That's not separate from a fighter at all. It's synergising other skills into fighting. Hell, kajukenbo was founded by guys who would start bar fights and street brawls. They just took notes on what happened, what worked and what didn't afterwards.
    Of course being aware of when to fight and how to avoid it is much more important than any set of techniques. That doesn't change the fact that there are more than a few people that take up the martial arts primarily, if not exclusively, for the excersize and mental discipline with little to no thought for learning to harm others, even if they choose to enter competition. Those are the people I'm talking about when I say artist.

    Make no mistake, there is an artistic component to many martial arts. Take capoeira for instance. Due to the circumstances of its creation it was designed to look like dancing rather than fighting. If you study it for several years and never strike a blow against another human being, there will still be a grace and beauty in the movements of the practitioner. It is nonetheless an effective means of delivering oblique strikes to an opponent unfamiliar with it, even if he's a decently skilled fighter. To discount the art in the martial arts is to ignore more than a century of development in some cases.

    Neither art nor fight is strictly superior to the other. Both have their place in society and in an individual person's life. How big a place is dependent entirely on the person or society in question. Hell, even the most brutal of styles still has a certain elegance and beauty in its efficiency.

    Then of course there're the styles that emphasize disabling or disuading an enemy while doing minimal harm to him. Do you consider these styles worthless? They've certainly got a certain humanitarian element to them.

    Besides, no martial art is complete. You can't learn to be a well-rounded and utterly efficient fighter without cross-training, period.

    You are certainly right about kata having their use. Perfection of form leads to higher precision and higher precision leads to greater effect in both placement and power of attacks. It's also more aesthetically pleasing and practicing kata helps to build both discipline and endurance. That said, spiryt does have a point about there being absolutely no substitute for, at least partial contact, sparring. Only experience can teach good timing and how to properly read an opponent. Its far better to gain that experience in a relatively safe environment while sparring than to earn it the hard way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    If a man can't protect his own balls, he shouldn't be trying to protect other people.

    On the subject of Krav Maga: yeah, I'm definitely not going for that. Maybe sometime in the far, far future years from now, but right now most definitely not. What I've heard of it it sounds amazingly effective, but also essentially like a kind of "kill fu".
    I agree with your statement, and I think you're probably making the right decision regarding krav-maga. It doesn't really emphasize the aspect of the martial arts you appear to be looking for.

    That said, make no mistake. All martial arts arose from the need to destroy your enemies, no matter how diluted that original purpose has become. A properly executed strike from virtually any style placed properly can kill. Even something as simple as boxing's jab can crush a man's wind-pipe. A cross can break bones. Muay thai's roundhouse kick is the equivalent of hitting someone with a baseball bat.

    If you study the martial arts, you will become more capable of killing someone than you already are. Even aikido's throws can be intentionally adjusted to make an opponent land in an extremely injurious fashion, and it's one of those minimal harm arts I was talking about in my last post.

    Most law enforcement agencies take note of this basic fact, and you can expect stiffer charges if you get caught up in a street fight after you've achieved some rank in any style.

    I'm not saying this to turn you off to the idea, mind. It's just something anyone considering the martial arts should be aware of.

    RE: proper falling technique

    You'll definitely get it from any grappling style practically from the first day. Some striking styles that either have techniques that involve intentionally falling (these are fairly rare) or have numerous sweeps and trips will also include break-falls. The important thing is to distribute the impact across as much of your body as you can, excepting your head and neck of course. You should try and learn proper break-falls regardless of whether you even decide to follow through on learning a martial art. They can go a long way toward minimizing injury in a number of situations.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-08 at 05:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post


    That's needlessly antagonistic. I meant it as a restructuring o my point, not an accusation. Sorry.
    That's not antagonistic?

    Sparring is definitely not really necessary for building what we would call 'base' athletic/conditioning function, I was agreeing with you.

    You are changing goal posts here. It was never about replicating having someone being unpredictable and intimidating, it was about whether it could yeah you anything. You said, for example, karate knife disarming techniques are bull, and implied you could not learn to counter a knife through kata alone. I know this is untrue. I also said that sparring was good, and it woul help. My point was that cerebral training is not a waste of time. My point is that there is a difference between training, and doing moves in the air.
    Well, I'm not. I never said 'cerebral' was waste of time either.

    Original point was that one can learn to 'fight' (whatever would that mean) without hard, full contact sparring.

    And that would be really extremely hard, there will be, certainly, singular people that have it in their "blood', so they don't need to actually learn to go hard and endure it mentally, but they will be in minority.

    And you absolutely cannot learn to counter knives trough kata and whatever alone.

    All this stuff is pretty dangerous myth, actually, if someone actually believe he can do it.

    Defending against knife unarmed is extremely hard no matter who you are, and if definitely would take a lot of training - 99% of karate and other kata and demonstrations out there are horribly disconnected from reality - with one guy attacking with 'knife' in a way that the defender is expecting, drilled against etc. He performs so nifty trip and everyone is happy...

    Actual experiments with knife substitutes leaving color on clothing, with wielder being just aggressive and willing to stab/hack at will end with 'blood' all over...


    Even something as simple as boxing's jab can crush a man's wind-pipe.
    Well, for that matter, jab actually tends to be hardest thing to sufficiently master for 'average Joe'.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2012-10-08 at 05:18 AM.
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    I was taught how to fall during Taekwondo. I think every style teaches that skill because there's no style that doesn't involve getting knocked down at some point. Kind of comes with the whole fighting thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Most law enforcement agencies take note of this basic fact, and you can expect stiffer charges if you get caught up in a street fight after you've achieved some rank in any style.
    Did you know that if you're a professional boxer, you can get charged for assault with a lethal weapon if you attack someone bare-handed? I thought that was pretty interesting when I learned it in criminal law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Make no mistake, there is an artistic component to many martial arts. Take capoeira for instance. ... To discount the art in the martial arts is to ignore more than a century of development in some cases.
    There is beauty in it, but that beauty is not the point, was not intended. I am just pointing out that 'art' in martial art is not the same word as 'art' when referring to painting, sculpting, drawing, or even singing. U suppose dancing comes close though.

    Then of course there're the styles that emphasize disabling or disuading an enemy while doing minimal harm to him. Do you consider these styles worthless? They've certainly got a certain humanitarian element to them.
    Not at all. Nor do I see where I even implied that. point it out, s'il vous plaît? It may be a problem with my manner of speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I agree with your statement, and I think you're probably making the right decision regarding krav-maga. It doesn't really emphasize the aspect of the martial arts you appear to be looking for.

    That said, make no mistake. All martial arts arose from the need to destroy your enemies, no matter how diluted that original purpose has become.
    Depending on how you mean roots; there are dozens of martial arts which do not have their roots in combat. There are many schools which formed by purposefully distancing themselves from existing combat forms, and developing solely for exercise an spiritual wellness.

    Most law enforcement agencies take note of this basic fact, and you can expect stiffer charges if you get caught up in a street fight after you've achieved some rank in any style.
    I believe this is a fallacy; no officer or judge I've yet asked in three states has any knowledge of this, and I've had police seminars where they stated this was untrue. It's the technique, not the level of training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    That's not antagonistic?

    Sparring is definitely not really necessary for building what we would call 'base' athletic/conditioning function, I was agreeing with you.
    Okay. Then I'm just having trouble reading tonight and it's affecting my presentation. Sorry.

    Well, I'm not. I never said 'cerebral' was waste of time either.

    Original point was that one can learn to 'fight' (whatever would that mean) without hard, full contact sparring.

    And that would be really extremely hard, there will be, certainly, singular people that have it in their "blood', so they don't need to actually learn to go hard and endure it mentally, but they will be in minority.
    This sounds like a reverse No True Scotsman. Having proof that it can be done if you focus is discounted because most people don't have that focus... But focus is an act of will, something most have but are too lazy for.

    And you absolutely cannot learn to counter knives trough kata and whatever alone.
    *shrug* this is untrue. It's not 100% foolproof. Being attacked with a weapon is dangerous. I'm not saying do it. But it can be done.
    Bah! I am being pedantic. Never mind.

    All this stuff is pretty dangerous myth, actually, if someone actually believe he can do it.
    Oddly, I agree with this though.

    Well, for that matter, jab actually tends to be hardest thing to sufficiently master for 'average Joe'.
    Yes. A hard right cross seems to be hard-wired into the brain, and basic aggression makes sloppy, haymaker style punches feel good to throw. It's a satisfying act of physicality! Pity that it's a terrible attack form.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-10-08 at 05:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    With regard to breakfalls, in my opinion Aikido-style ukemi is better for parkour/free running, since you're taught to end up on your feet (ready to carry on running) thus it looks more fluid and impressive, compared to judo-style ukemi which appears to be mostly stopping injury from landing (judo enthusiasts, please correct me if I'm wrong).


    With the whole kata/sparring debate going on, I feel both sides have merit. It's perfectly possible (although harder) to go through the entire framework without a partner, but the advantages of sparring shouldn't be under-estimated, not least in teaching the concept of mei-ai (reach/distance in combat), which is so personalised, each person has to learn it for themselves.

    My old sifu had a saying of 'there is no good one kung fu guy', which emphasises the importance of partner work, particularly in Chinese martial arts (quite a few forms and drills have an attacker/defender component).

    Aikido also emphasises the importance of a good uke (receiver) for the nage (performer). An uke who attacks without the intention to actually make contact is almost as bad as an obstinate one who deliberate makes all the techniques difficult.

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    I've been doing Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate for for years, and Jinbukan Kobudo for year and a half. I've also had basic firearms training in Finnish Defense Forces, and taken a course in basic Krav-Maga.

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    Edit in response to Brother Oni: I definitely don't recommend Krav Maga. It's about really hurting people and it's only good if self-defense at any cost is what you're going for.
    Not true. There are civilian schools of the art that focus on self-defence, including explaining what you can and can't get away with legally.

    Anyways, I've done something thinking on the subject, and I've come to the conclusion that there are three dimension to Martial Arts - fitness, lifestyle and combat. It's an expansion on the Japanese dichtomy of "Jutsu" and "Do".

    Martial arts as fitness is about how the art helps you shape your body - how they teach you balance and body control and how it can be used to improve your physique and health.

    Martial arts as combat is about effectiveness of techniques in a violent situation, whether that be war or self-defence - how they teach you to harm and flee from your opponent while lessening risk to yourself.

    Martial arts as a lifestyle is about the philosophical outlook - how they teach you to approach life, training, dangerous situations and other people.

    All martial arts hold these elements, though they weigh them differently. Most sport styles place little emphasis on combat in favor of fitness and lifestyle. Military and police arts place most emphasis on combat and not so much on lifestyle. But like my remark about civilian Krav-maga schools should hint you, most martial arts can be used perfectly well for any of the three - it's about how and why you train more than about exact techniques or reputation of an art.

    Related to this, I had an epiphany while training Krav-maga: most of the basics were exactly the same as in karate. Most of the actual self-defence tricks were the same as in karate. People go on and on about supposed effetiveness of Krav-maga over other arts, but the actual technical superiority is limited to fairly restricted area - which only has application in military situations, not civilian life.

    Why? Because civilians, as a rule, rarely carry firearms. They rarely wear bullet-proof vests or helmets. I see and hear people looking at fancy techniques in traditional arts, like karate and kobudo, and saying "oh, that technique will never work in real life". What they often don't realize is that those fancy techniques were not, and are not, made for civilian self-defense - they are made to defend against enemies who are armed and armored and trained in martial arts too, which means most of the simple self-defence tricks won't work. Those perceived needless moves and "useless stuff" exist to maneuver around obstacles that are not generally seen in modern civilian conflicts.

    And they exist in krav-maga as well. If my krav-maga training was more useful for self-defense than karate, it was not because the techniques were notably different, because they weren't; it was because we trained them in situations more closely mimicking modern civilian self-defense situations, and because our instructor told us in-depth about Finnish law regarding seld-defense situations.

    But both can be done, and we do them, in context of traditional arts too. I've had several of my karate and kobudo instructors reiterate points made by my krav-maga instructor almost word for word, and we occasionally use lessons solely for mimicking self-defense situations. We just have proportionately less of these things, because our clubs have kids and people mostly interested in staying fit, instead of those who routinely get to violent conflicts.

    As a tangent, about belt colors: they have been invented separately for many arts, and the most common one originated from Japanese Judo, and was adopted by karate from them. Belt colors are a tool for a teacher to tell what people can and can't do within an art - they usually aren't comparable between arts, or even different traditions of the same art. For example, my Kobudo club uses a ten Kyu system, meaning ten colored belts before 1st Dan black belt. For contrast my karate club uses six Kyu system. I have green belt exams ahead for both arts, but for Kobudo, it's 6th Kyu, while for Karate it's 3rd Kyu - in practice, this means the karate exam will contain about thrice as much and be that much harder than the kobudo one. Infact, I'm confident I could pss 5th Kyu in kobudo already, but am nervous about karate because I failed 3rd Kyu once already last spring...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    As a tangent, about belt colors: they have been invented separately for many arts, and the most common one originated from Japanese Judo, and was adopted by karate from them. Belt colors are a tool for a teacher to tell what people can and can't do within an art - they usually aren't comparable between arts, or even different traditions of the same art.
    Quite true. Traditionally, Chinese schools don't have a belt system because the school sizes are generally small enough for the sifu to know individually where each of his pupils are skill wise.

    With more pupils, it becomes harder for one person to keep track, thus the introduction of a syllabus and a belt grading system for schools with larger numbers and geographically spread out locations.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-10-08 at 09:27 AM.

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    Hmmm, from the last couple of post I started thinking I might look into aikido, if it's practiced around here. I never really thought about it, because it didn't seem like my thing. Prolly because it's either heavily advocated as a women's only sport in the Japanese media I've gotten into contact with, or for use in cheesy action movies by Steven Seagull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Hmmm, from the last couple of post I started thinking I might look into aikido, if it's practiced around here. I never really thought about it, because it didn't seem like my thing. Prolly because it's either heavily advocated as a women's only sport in the Japanese media I've gotten into contact with, or for use in cheesy action movies by Steven Seagull.
    While Stephen Segal's movies are relatively subpar, the man's skill shouldn't be doubted: 1993 demonstration.

    I suspect that the media you've seen is somewhat biased as what I've seen is approximately equal in gender.
    I've found a demonstration of basic techniques and also incidentally shows what I mean about aikido breakfalls being more suitable for freerunning/parkour.

    If you still feel that aikido is a 'woman's sport', then may I suggest jujutsu, which is generally regarded as aikido's brutish older cousin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Hmmm, from the last couple of post I started thinking I might look into aikido, if it's practiced around here. I never really thought about it, because it didn't seem like my thing. Prolly because it's either heavily advocated as a women's only sport in the Japanese media I've gotten into contact with, or for use in cheesy action movies by Steven Seagull.
    Bah! Unless it calls for you to use your breasts as a weapon there's no such thing as a women's martial art. The difference in the frame of a random man and woman is only marginally more different than the difference in the frame between any two random people of the same gender and the difference in upper body/lower body strength is a trend in overall population that's meaningless on the individual level.

    Aikido is a decent soft style. It was one of the first I seriously looked into. There's not much in the way of striking though, it's a predominantly grappling style. Though this is a case where I'm using the term grappling pretty loosely, since it largely avoids the clinch. It's a very fluid and dynamic style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    There is beauty in it, but that beauty is not the point, was not intended. I am just pointing out that 'art' in martial art is not the same word as 'art' when referring to painting, sculpting, drawing, or even singing. U suppose dancing comes close though.
    Not for people like you and me it isn't, but for some people it very much is. Art is one of those funny words that means different things to different people, but in the sense of things that are simultaneously aesthetically pleasing and intended to say something about the artist/humanity, the martial arts can, in fact, be counted.

    Not at all. Nor do I see where I even implied that. point it out, s'il vous plaît? It may be a problem with my manner of speech.
    I can't point out a specific quote, it's just a vibe I was getting based on the apparent level of aggression you seem to be emphasizing. As of this post I see that you clearly didn't mean to make such an implication, but it can be read in your previous posts nonetheless.

    Depending on how you mean roots; there are dozens of martial arts which do not have their roots in combat. There are many schools which formed by purposefully distancing themselves from existing combat forms, and developing solely for exercise an spiritual wellness.
    I'm guessing you're talking about things like Tai Chi? The thing is, while there are modern and semi-modern forms of these arts that have completely dropped the combat aspect, they're still the result of centuries of conflict that came before. Aikido might be one too? It was the style I had in mind when I brought up the ones that emphasize minimal harm.



    I believe this is a fallacy; no officer or judge I've yet asked in three states has any knowledge of this, and I've had police seminars where they stated this was untrue. It's the technique, not the level of training.
    It's a trend rather than a concious action on the part of individuals. Martial artists are seen in a different light, psychologically speaking, than untrained fighters. This leads to law-enforcement treating them in a stricter manner because they're "more dangerous" or "should've known better." Though as Anarion pointed out, there are some actuall instances of the law itself recognizing martial artists as more dangerous than laypersons.



    Oddly, I agree with this though.
    As do I. It's unfortunate that the tendency that so many fighters have to boast have led to tall tales and stretchings of the truth to the point where many older martial arts are seen as damn near magical. Can't be helped I guess.



    Yes. A hard right cross seems to be hard-wired into the brain, and basic aggression makes sloppy, haymaker style punches feel good to throw. It's a satisfying act of physicality! Pity that it's a terrible attack form.
    See now, here I disagree. Both a jab and a cross are simple enough to learn, but both take a fair amount of practice to master. How many laypeople have you seen put their legs and hips into a cross properly? All the ones I've seen generally put way, way too much emphasis on their arm and shoulder. They lose a lot of power that way.

    The haymaker isn't entirely worthless. It makes great bait for getting a trained opponent to react in a particular way. It's pretty terrible as an actual attempt at hurting someone though.
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    I have been interested in martial arts for over 25 years now. Trained in grappling and in striking arts.

    The past 10 years I have been studying heavily in Tae Kwon Do (Traditional Korean Combat)

    My advice to you would be to find what schools are in you area and try out classes in each. Good schools will let you try a class or two for free. Be upfront with the instructor/owner of what you are doing.

    If he/she seems upset or agitated by the idea of you checking out his school then you do not want to train under them.

    If they ask you to sign a contract and if they guarantee you a certain belt level by the end of the contract WALK AWAY. These are usually black belt farms and will be happy to take your money.

    Find the art that best fits for you, what you like to do. It is not the martial art bu the martial artist that is important.

    Bruce Lee said something along the lines of "I do not fear the man who practices a thousand kicks once, but the man you practices one kick a thousand times."

    This mean if you really love something you will practice even one simple thing of the art over and over till you master it. If you do not like what you are doing you will not put in the time.

    Just a heads up I read on this thread that X marital art is only good for Y. That really needs to be changed to X martial art thought at Y school is only good for Z.

    Just because the sign on the door says Karate the next school you see with the same sign can and will be totally different.

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    I find the legal bias towards Martial arts. Here in Finland sports insurances will often cover ice hockey and soccer, which are at least as injury-prone, but martial arts get lumped together with rock climbing and base jumping and need a special license.

    It is true being a martial artist can place you under greater scrutiny in court cases too. Can't say it's entirely baseless - many arts will teach you more ways to harm someone than laymen can imagine. (something I found hilarious when ordered to give a crash course of hand-to-hand combat to my peers in the army - mainly because I had barely started myself!) But in a way I find it unfair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I noticed that there wasn't yet a topic about martial arts, combat sports and self-defence training here, and as I myself am interested and looking into getting into it right now I created this topic to see if there are out there who want to talk about this.

    Maybe even give tips or tell me what their favourite one is so my choice in picking one of them becomes even harder. Currently mainly looking into judo, karate, taekwondo and boxing.
    I just took up tae kwon do at my school. As it turns out the club is just working on getting official status from the school to get funding. So far all we've done is basic movements and a bunch of cardio.
    I'm also joining the kumdo club. (That's basically kendo, but in Korean, because whoever started the club was Korean.)
    Out of your choices I'd probably have trouble deciding, except that I wouldn't do boxing. If I could I would take all three.
    Out of all choices, I might try Venusian karate, because I really need a life it sounds neat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oge'Xam View Post
    Bruce Lee said something along the lines of "I do not fear the man who practices a thousand kicks once, but the man you practices one kick a thousand times."

    This mean if you really love something you will practice even one simple thing of the art over and over till you master it. If you do not like what you are doing you will not put in the time.
    I always interpreted that to mean complete mastery of the basics was better than bare knowledge over a wide range. Dedication and love of the art is superfluous to the point at hand - both men are kicking one thousand times, except that one is more focused on a single aspect of it.

    You could even argue that he was talking about the difference between a specialist and a generalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I just took up tae kwon do at my school. As it turns out the club is just working on getting official status from the school to get funding. So far all we've done is basic movements and a bunch of cardio.
    I'm also joining the kumdo club. (That's basically kendo, but in Korean, because whoever started the club was Korean.)
    Out of your choices I'd probably have trouble deciding, except that I wouldn't do boxing. If I could I would take all three.
    Out of all choices, I might try Venusian karate, because I really need a life it sounds neat.
    Boxing gets underestimated a lot. I suspect this is because of its fairly basic nature. It covers only one aspect of the fight-game; striking, while most arts at least acknowledge that a fight will almost certainly end up in a clinch or on the ground if you don't actively work against those situations.

    Boxing covers its niche, hand strikes, more completely than almost any other style. If you master boxing, you're going to be a monster when it comes to punching. You'll need to round out with something else if you want to be able to defend yourself properly in a street fight though. Get a firm grasp of BJJ to go with your boxing skills and learn how to check a kick and you're going to be a tough nut to crack for most unarmed street thugs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    While Stephen Segal's movies are relatively subpar, the man's skill shouldn't be doubted: 1993 demonstration.

    I suspect that the media you've seen is somewhat biased as what I've seen is approximately equal in gender.
    I've found a demonstration of basic techniques and also incidentally shows what I mean about aikido breakfalls being more suitable for freerunning/parkour.

    If you still feel that aikido is a 'woman's sport', then may I suggest jujutsu, which is generally regarded as aikido's brutish older cousin.
    Jujutsu may be less available where I live than aikido. Also, it's not so much the idea of it being a women's sport primarily that's keeping me from it (heck, naginatajutsu is in the same position and I'd love to do that!), it's ending up in a class where I'm vastly outnumbered by females. I have no problems with mixed classes at all, but I've had classes and courses where I was the only guy (or one out of two) in a group of 12 or 15 before. It could... get awkward.

    I don't suppose you have any videos to offer with Steven Seagal in a serious aikido competition sort of environment? A demonstration is nice, but it has a much different setting, and the first opponent especially seemed to be making it much more of a show than necessary. (I almost thought he might be in love with the floor.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Bah! Unless it calls for you to use your breasts as a weapon
    I sincerely hope for the ladies that there is no such serious art. xD

    Aikido is a decent soft style. It was one of the first I seriously looked into. There's not much in the way of striking though, it's a predominantly grappling style. Though this is a case where I'm using the term grappling pretty loosely, since it largely avoids the clinch. It's a very fluid and dynamic style.
    Sounds good. The video and the descriptions I've heard of it make it sound like a grappling style that's mainly aimed at quick grappling, ensuring the opponent is on the floor and moving on, away from them. Is that correct? That might make it better against groups, whereas I'd imagine judo to be better against a single person.


    I also sometimes easily confuse jujutsu and jiu-jitsu. Dang close words! I've heard there's different forms of the latter though. I always thought it was just Brazilian, but I think someone in this thread earlier mentioned a distinction between "original" and "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Jujutsu may be less available where I live than aikido. Also, it's not so much the idea of it being a women's sport primarily that's keeping me from it (heck, naginatajutsu is in the same position and I'd love to do that!), it's ending up in a class where I'm vastly outnumbered by females. I have no problems with mixed classes at all, but I've had classes and courses where I was the only guy (or one out of two) in a group of 12 or 15 before. It could... get awkward.

    I don't suppose you have any videos to offer with Steven Seagal in a serious aikido competition sort of environment? A demonstration is nice, but it has a much different setting, and the first opponent especially seemed to be making it much more of a show than necessary. (I almost thought he might be in love with the floor.)



    I sincerely hope for the ladies that there is no such serious art. xD



    Sounds good. The video and the descriptions I've heard of it make it sound like a grappling style that's mainly aimed at quick grappling, ensuring the opponent is on the floor and moving on, away from them. Is that correct? That might make it better against groups, whereas I'd imagine judo to be better against a single person.
    That's about right. There are some joint locks too though, which make the style well suited to a single opponent as well. Ideally you want to just get the hell away if there's an entire group after you. The whole style was built around the notion of disabling or disuading your enemy from continuing to attack you without harming him.


    I also sometimes easily confuse jujutsu and jiu-jitsu. Dang close words! I've heard there's different forms of the latter though. I always thought it was just Brazilian, but I think someone in this thread earlier mentioned a distinction between "original" and "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu?
    That was me. Jui-Jitsu originally comes from Japan. Brazillian is a regional adaptation. I've only studied brazillian though so I'm not overmuch sure of the differences. Just FYI there's also small-circle jiu-jitsu, and the rubber-guard style of brazillian jiu-jitsu, though this last one was developed only in the last 15 years or so, IIRC.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-08 at 05:24 PM.
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    Taking a step away from all the Eastern martial arts talk, I'm a part of a Fencing Club on my college campus. I mostly do it for fun and exercise, because it has little real world application. I mean, no one really carries around swords anymore, but I think it's a cool thing to know about. Still, if we weren't wearing the protective gear, you could easily lose an eye. Heck, last week, I got the paint scraped off my glasses by the inside of my mask because I took a hard hit to the head and I wasn't wearing it quite tight enough.

    Anyways, the footwork drills are great cardio as you go back and forth down the strip. Repeated parrying drills really tire out your arms. Matches, though they're supposed to be limited to 3 minutes, can stretch on for a while. It's mentally tiring too, having to react and counter attack so quickly.

    I enjoy it because I don't need a lot of muscle to do it, nor a whole lot of stamina, since the matches are fairly short. But it is helping me build up both. It isn't full contact, either. So though I'm a little sore at the end, I'm not at risk for serious injury (though I do get some interesting quarter sized bruises occasionally). Yes, it's a bit impractical, but swords are cool!

    For finding a place for any sort of martial art, I suggest looking towards a nearby college campus. While it may be that their club is restricted to students only, you can ask about paying a small fee to get into it for a semester. School's probably won't say no to extra money, and it's a great environment, because everyone's pretty much there to try something new anyways. We only charge a $25 fee per semester for anyone from outside the school who wants to join, so it's really cheap compared to what a dojo or official school might charge. Just something to look into, as a nearby school might offer something similar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I also sometimes easily confuse jujutsu and jiu-jitsu. Dang close words! I've heard there's different forms of the latter though. I always thought it was just Brazilian, but I think someone in this thread earlier mentioned a distinction between "original" and "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu?
    Jiu-jitsu is Japanese hybrid style dating at least to early 16th century.

    BJJ is pretty exclusively grappling art builded from Judo, JJ, and other inspirations by Gracie family (mainly).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Boxing covers its niche, hand strikes, more completely than almost any other style.
    I agree that boxing is underestimated because of its limited scope, but it's important to also recognise its limitations in punching as well. You're not going to have gloves or wraps on all the time, so some variation from the clenched fist (palm strikes, ridge hands, hammer fists, etc) is good to know, else one poorly placed punch will completely knacker up your fist, most likely losing you the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I have no problems with mixed classes at all, but I've had classes and courses where I was the only guy (or one out of two) in a group of 12 or 15 before. It could... get awkward.
    Dude, groin guard. Not only does it protect the family jewels, it also covers up the effects of errant thoughts when you're wrestling with hot sweaty women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I don't suppose you have any videos to offer with Steven Seagal in a serious aikido competition sort of environment? A demonstration is nice, but it has a much different setting, and the first opponent especially seemed to be making it much more of a show than necessary. (I almost thought he might be in love with the floor.)
    I'll have a look, but I'd be surprised if there are any competition videos. There's one where he apparently goes up against 3 MMA fighters, but I haven't seen it to be able to judge the quality of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I sincerely hope for the ladies that there is no such serious art. xD
    There's probably some form of self defence that utilises a lady's natural assets as a distraction, so she can get that pepper spray/tazer/pistol out to disable her assailant.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-10-09 at 06:33 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    @ brother oni: you're right of course that the clenched fist is hardly the only effective way to position your fingers for a hand strike, but proper conditioning with bare-knuckle practice (not bare-knuckle sparring, don't do that) can make the chance of hurting your wrist/knuckles just as slim as with any other hand position.

    Which actually brings to mind the subject of bone conditioning, the portion of some martial arts that allows the classic board breaking thing. In most first-world societies any significant amount of intentional conditioning of the bones to withstand impact is probably excessive. Unless you're going to go into competitive breaking, it's probably best to avoid more than the bit of incidental conditioning that results from regularly working a punching bag.

    I'm not even 30 yet and I'm already getting some mild arthritic symptoms in my dominant hand. I can throw a cross into a brick wall, full-force, without doing much more than tearing a little skin though, so I've got no complaints. I don't do that much anymore after that one incident though.

    You think a person'll get irritated for you running on their wall, you should see how ticked they get when you punch a hole in one. Fortunately for me it was just a decorative wall and getting it repaired wasn't too expensive. No charges were filed thankfully.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-09 at 07:26 AM.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Dude, groin guard. Not only does it protect the family jewels, it also covers up the effects of errant thoughts when you're wrestling with hot sweaty women.
    I wasn't even thinking about that, actually. I guess I may have given the wrong impression of myself there, sorry. I was moreso thinking that in groups where you're the only member of your sex you feel more quickly left out, or conversations arise that you're either unfamiliar or uncomfortable with.

    That being said though, there'd likely be other forms of awkwardness involved if I'd spar with a girl who I find attractive.

    There is apparently an aikido group in a town 7 miles from here. At that dojo they also practice judo, jiu-jitsu and tai chi. I'll call 'em later and see when they have practice.
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