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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    DarkEternal, no offense but a lot of that sounds like you're reiterating thoughts that may not really be accurate Anymore. There hasn't been a mystique of the east ever since they stopped calling it the Orient. Have you compared Krav Maga to Sambo? I find that natives who try these systems come out stronger than Americans who try these systems. This says to me that the style itself means a lot less than the kind of person who learns it. Killers don't learn Krav Maga because it's a dangerous art, Krav Maga is a dangerous art because it is know predominantly by killers. Krav Maga also has a sports version, by the way. They teach it at my local 24 hour fitness. You cannot judge an art off of one person who teaches it.
    I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Krav Maga was a martial art. If I did, it was not intentional. IT is a combat system. Plain and simple. It teaches you the most effective ways to take down an opponent and doesn't delude itself in purifying your spirit or what have you. It just teaches you how to harm someone really, really bad. And in that, in my personal experience, it has no peer. Of course it's taught in your local fitness center. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's fair share of "bad" practitioners or even exaggarated promises. Today, it's really popular because it markets itself as being "good for everyone."

    Yeah, that's a load of crap. Don't get me wrong, it can be learned by everyone, but I tell you right now that a hundred pound woman with Krav Maga knowledge will get demolished by a 200 pound man. I have seen and trained with such practitioners and it simply can not be overdone with techniques you learn there. It still gives you a good chance, and honestly, when your safety is threatened, I'll take that over anything else. Will you be able to take the gun of someone that assaults you? Probably not, but there is a chance you will, in my opinion, a better chance than in any other form of combat(except like I mentioned before, running away if you can) and I don't really need more then that.

    Sambo is awesome, don't get me wrong. I've seen what Fedor could do to a person in his competitions and it's(I think) the form of combat the russian police learns, and they are pretty effective. But like I said, there is no "bad" martial art, or combat style. In my opinion, at least of all of those I trained in, it's just the most effective one in an unknown surrounding where you can't count on the variables or defend yourself in an environment that will give you and your attacker equal ground.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zadhadras View Post
    I would love to be able to find a local Jogo Do Pau or Bataireacht club.

    Jogo Do pau is Portuguese staff fighting. Bataireacht is irish cane fighting.

    Sadly, bataireacht is apparently held somewhat in disdain in Ireland and is nearly extinct there. Fortunately, the Doyle family brought a version of it to Newfoundland when the emigrated in the mid 1800's and its been taught to family members ever since. Now the family grandmaster is teaching it to the public and the art is starting to spread.

    Jogo Do pau:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg

    Bataireacht:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcH0ww_Jbfg
    Aye, shillelagh is a fun one. Cane fighting of any stripe becomes a lot better when removed from the idea of fencing with a gentleman's stick. The Doyle style is also very painful without a proper shillelagh; the nobbles on a random branch are bound to puncture your palm on the rebound from a jab or a closin block, and padding drastically changes the mechanics of the lever. So get a stick you want to use frequently if you try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkEternal View Post
    I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Krav Maga was a martial art. If I did, it was not intentional. IT is a combat system. Plain and simple.
    Pure sophistry, a meaningless distinction. Martial and combat are both words relating to war and fighting; an art and a system are both defined and implemented principles. You're attaching 60s-80s baggage to a martial art in order to hang it. It's just plain not true.

    Especially since I learned a lot of krav maga stuff in Kajukenbo. There are X different ways to do any one mechanical thing with the body. Pretending one art/style/system has a monopoly on the best is baseless. It's like you're saying kenjutsu is superior to Japanese sword fighting because it's more authentic. There's nothing in combat system to differentiate it from martial art except connotation and emotional connection.

    It teaches you the most effective ways to take down an opponent and doesn't delude itself in purifying your spirit or what have you.
    This is like saying a remedial high school math course is better because it doesn't delude itself with being an education. There is no capacity, no set arbitrary number wherein Krav Maga gets in full Arbitrary Fighting Skill units, and other schools add in Arbitrary Philosophy units to dilute their curiculum. If anything, a publicly available system for inflicting of harm that doesn't touch on morals and law is incomplete and unethical. It's all in the presentation. Your "doesn't delude" is my "incomplete and narrow". Hardly objective.

    Yeah, that's a load of crap. Don't get me wrong, it can be learned by everyone, but I tell you right now that a hundred pound woman with Krav Maga knowledge will get demolished by a 200 pound man.
    Of course. All things ring equal, biggest person wins. Weight can also make up for a lack of skill; most welterweight boxers are much better technicians. Toucan tell the heavy guys by how much their strategy becomes "hit the other guy, hard a lot" over thinking out their bout.

    In my opinion, at least of all of those I trained in, it's just the most effective one in an unknown surrounding where you can't count on the variables or defend yourself in an environment that will give you and your attacker equal ground.
    I don't understand. No martial art I've seen trains you to rely on variables around you. No fighting style requires you to count on variables or defend yourself in a known environment. What are you saying here? That you feel krav maga has a broader application?
    "No malice. No remorse."

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    @DarkEternal

    Out of curiosity, aside from krav maga how many different styles have you intensively trained in or studied in-depth?
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    Gonna call some nearby clubs tomorrow morning for some info on free lessons to get started.

    Also gonna have my first Krav Maga lesson on Saturday!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Gonna call some nearby clubs tomorrow morning for some info on free lessons to get started.

    Also gonna have my first Krav Maga lesson on Saturday!
    Cool! Let us know how it goes~
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Pure sophistry, a meaningless distinction. Martial and combat are both words relating to war and fighting; an art and a system are both defined and implemented principles. You're attaching 60s-80s baggage to a martial art in order to hang it. It's just plain not true.

    Especially since I learned a lot of krav maga stuff in Kajukenbo. There are X different ways to do any one mechanical thing with the body. Pretending one art/style/system has a monopoly on the best is baseless. It's like you're saying kenjutsu is superior to Japanese sword fighting because it's more authentic. There's nothing in combat system to differentiate it from martial art except connotation and emotional connection.
    I'm just telling you how it's presented. It's not a martial art, but okay. If it's sophistry, let's say it is.





    I don't understand. No martial art I've seen trains you to rely on variables around you. No fighting style requires you to count on variables or defend yourself in a known environment. What are you saying here? That you feel krav maga has a broader application?

    Then we must have trained in differen environments. In other martial arts I've seen, it's usually in a controlled "duel" like environment. Be it a ring, a tatami, or whatever you want it. I do feel it has a broader application. Bear in mind that yes, I've said what martial arts I know and from them, I think Krav Maga does the job best. I'm not saying it's the king and sovereign of all other system, just that it did the job the best for me.

    Out of curiosity, aside from krav maga how many different styles have you intensively trained in or studied in-depth?
    Boxing for two years, Karate, some Tae-Kwon Do. Others like capoeira, Muay Thai, BJJ I know from second hand, from friends who are in said disciplines.

    I adore boxing, like I said before and I might even put it up to equal Krav Maga in what I was looking for in a martial art. Karate was okay, but I never really got into it to be frank, while in my opinion Tae Kwon Do just sucks.

    I'm sorry if this offends someone who practices it, it does something better for you than it does for me, but I just plain disliked it. It's a sport, just like Boxing, but unlike boxing, I've not seen it used to defend one's self effectively, not even once(and this is from seeing high level practitioners getting their arses kicked by a single drunk). Again, this is not me saying one system is better then the other, just that for me, some work better then others in real life situations.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkEternal View Post
    (and this is from seeing high level practitioners getting their arses kicked by a single drunk).
    Clearly Drunken Boxing is best.


    Had my first real martial class today: aikijutsu! Kind of like aikido, but with more stuff and they use an actual belt system here for it apparently. I really liked it, especially since I got such a quick reply to my email by the teacher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Carrying a weapon for protection and carrying a weapon with the intent of harming someone are very different animals.
    in most of Europe, AFAIK, you're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon ever, unless you happen to be in a trade that practically requires you to have one, say law enforcement.. in most countries it's heavily regulated business and even collectors or indeed martial artists may only carry weapons to and from places (gyms), in cases or suchlike..and usually the possession of said weapons is regulated by permits without which being grandmaster of whatever-do isn't enough to keep you out of trouble.

    I know for a fact that in Italy, you can get into trouble for carrying a screwdriver upon your person if it doesn't happen to be in a toolbox/toolbelt and you're not going places to work with it. say you get caught late at night with a screwdriver stuck in your belt or in the pocket of your trousers, coat or whatever.. the cops are going to think you plan to use it to do improper things to people and/or property..
    they usually take a dim view on things like that.
    anything with a blade or a pointy end that is being carried without clear motive (and no, self defence is not considered a valid motive) is likely to get you into trouble depending on the circumstances in which it's found upon yourself...you could of course claim that you just bought it at the shop down the road..but then they'd ask to see the receipt, which you're supposed to keep for tax reasons..and if you don't produce it, they will fine you for that, if not for the carrying of a potential weapon.
    controls may not be very rigid..in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually did get into trouble over carrying a screwdriver or an utility knife.. but if it ever gets to the point that you pull it out for self defense and authorities get involved, things may well turn out badly for you... to the point that you may wish you'd taken the beating instead.
    P.S. swordcanes are illegal to even own, unless they're certified antiques, at least 100 years old.
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-10-27 at 09:11 PM.
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    Aikijutsu and aikijujutsu, I believe, are the names given to the style in its earlier days. I'm not sure what differences there would be though. Learn anything good? Are you a ninja master yet, Morph Bark? Don't forget to ask for the secrets of reading another's Qi/power level! That's thermal trick you wanna master~

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    in most of Europe, AFAIK, you're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon ever, unless you happen to be in a trade that practically requires you to have one, say law enforcement.. in most countries it's heavily regulated business and even collectors or indeed martial artists may only carry weapons to and from places (gyms), in cases or suchlike..and usually the possession of said weapons is regulated by permits without which being grandmaster of whatever-do isn't enough to keep you out of trouble.

    I know for a fact that in Italy, you can get into trouble for carrying a screwdriver upon your person if it doesn't happen to be in a toolbox/toolbelt and you're not going places to work with it. say you get caught late at night with a screwdriver stuck in your belt or in the pocket of your trousers, coat or whatever.. the cops are going to think you plan to use it to do improper things to people and/or property..
    they usually take a dim view on things like that.
    anything with a blade or a pointy end that is being carried without clear motive (and no, self defence is not considered a valid motive) is likely to get you into trouble depending on the circumstances in which it's found upon yourself...you could of course claim that you just bought it at the shop down the road..but then they'd ask to see the receipt, which you're supposed to keep for tax reasons..and if you don't produce it, they will fine you for that, if not for the carrying of a potential weapon.
    controls may not be very rigid..in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually did get into trouble over carrying a screwdriver or an utility knife.. but if it ever gets to the point that you pull it out for self defense and authorities get involved, things may well turn out badly for you... to the point that you may wish you'd taken the beating instead.
    Yep! You can get in trouble for having a roll of quarters in your pocket if younger into a fight on the way to the laundromat and the othe guy suffers head trauma. Even if you didn't use said roll of quarters.

    It's unfortunate, as when you outlaw weapons only outlaws will have weapons. But such is life.
    "No malice. No remorse."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    in most of Europe, AFAIK, you're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon ever, unless you happen to be in a trade that practically requires you to have one, say law enforcement.. in most countries it's heavily regulated business and even collectors or indeed martial artists may only carry weapons to and from places (gyms), in cases or suchlike..and usually the possession of said weapons is regulated by permits without which being grandmaster of whatever-do isn't enough to keep you out of trouble.

    I know for a fact that in Italy, you can get into trouble for carrying a screwdriver upon your person if it doesn't happen to be in a toolbox/toolbelt and you're not going places to work with it. say you get caught late at night with a screwdriver stuck in your belt or in the pocket of your trousers, coat or whatever.. the cops are going to think you plan to use it to do improper things to people and/or property..
    they usually take a dim view on things like that.
    anything with a blade or a pointy end that is being carried without clear motive (and no, self defence is not considered a valid motive) is likely to get you into trouble depending on the circumstances in which it's found upon yourself...you could of course claim that you just bought it at the shop down the road..but then they'd ask to see the receipt, which you're supposed to keep for tax reasons..and if you don't produce it, they will fine you for that, if not for the carrying of a potential weapon.
    controls may not be very rigid..in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually did get into trouble over carrying a screwdriver or an utility knife.. but if it ever gets to the point that you pull it out for self defense and authorities get involved, things may well turn out badly for you... to the point that you may wish you'd taken the beating instead.
    P.S. swordcanes are illegal to even own, unless they're certified antiques, at least 100 years old.
    While I have no reason to doubt any of this, it doesn't necessarily apply everywhere (except probably the sword-cane). That's why I said to check with your local law-enforcement agency or a lawyer before deciding to carry any deadly weapon.

    The statement you quoted, however was more to do with the psychological ramifications of carrying a weapon than the legal.

    The only legal advice we can give on this forum without getting in trouble is "contact your local law-enforcement or a lawyer," as far as I know, so I didn't get into the specifics for any particular area.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Aikijutsu and aikijujutsu, I believe, are the names given to the style in its earlier days. I'm not sure what differences there would be though. Learn anything good? Are you a ninja master yet, Morph Bark? Don't forget to ask for the secrets of reading another's Qi/power level! That's thermal trick you wanna master~
    I LEARNED A GREAT MANY THINGS.

    ...mainly that I'm quite bad at rolling, because I'm still rather stiff after years of not doing any physically-exhausting sports (3 years of archery don't count).

    Also, according to the wiki:
    Aiki-jūjutsu is a form that can be broken into three styles: Jujutsu (hard/ soft); Aiki no Jutsu (soft); and Aikijujutsu (soft) which is the combination of the former two. Modern Japanese Jujutsu and Aikido both are styles that originate in Aikijujutsu.
    The teacher approached the subject well and told me about the differences between aikijutsu and aikido (as well as aikikai, for which there is a school nearby, whereas the last aikido school was closed a few years ago) and how their school was founded years ago by the only guy with the 7th dan in aikido in the country. The guy I worked with for most the exercises was also very good as a teacher, and flexible in adapting to me and what I did well and wrong. They also use a belt system more like judo, which aikido doesn't, which she told me is because here in the West people prefer to see more gradual and clearly-defined levels of progress that are clearly shown.

    All in all, it was very interesting and I'm looking forward to my second lesson.

    In other news, I was unable to attend the Krav Maga lesson yesterday, because I couldn't go to sleep until 4 AM and it started at 9.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    It's unfortunate, as when you outlaw weapons only outlaws will have weapons. But such is life.
    This is true. On the plus side though, when you outlaw weapons, there will also be fewer outlaws, because idiots are more prone to doing something criminal when they got a weapon in their hands, regardless of whether their target might also have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    While I have no reason to doubt any of this, it doesn't necessarily apply everywhere (except probably the sword-cane). That's why I said to check with your local law-enforcement agency or a lawyer before deciding to carry any deadly weapon.

    The statement you quoted, however was more to do with the psychological ramifications of carrying a weapon than the legal.

    The only legal advice we can give on this forum without getting in trouble is "contact your local law-enforcement or a lawyer," as far as I know, so I didn't get into the specifics for any particular area.
    I kept it generic by saying "most countries in Europe", and yes, better check indeed... also, common knowledge is way different than the letter of the law.
    For instance, in Italy the common way of determining whether a knife was legal or not was that it's not supposed to have a blade that is longer than 4 fingers..and I've heard this said many times by different people.. which is of course total rubbish. As my granddad pointed out to me (he's dutch and a weapon instructor even to this day), 4 of my fingers are about as wide as 3 of his (he's got freakishly large hands for a short guy)..
    It turns out that any blade of any shape or size may get you into various degrees of trouble, in Italy...and licences to carry a weapon don't necessarily travel well. you may buy a weapon legally in USA or Switzerland and find yourself in knee-deep horse droppings as soon as you cross the border with it.

    as for the sword-cane, I learned that in England, watching the Antiques Roadshow, of all things, lol.. and I checked out that this was the case also for Italy where the law is even more stringent as to possession of one.. (you need a collectors permit or something of the kind)
    I checked because, come on.. who wouldn't want to have a sword-cane if nothing else just to say you do?
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  14. 7.
  15. a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
  16. b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).


So, anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art. If anything, it would make more sense to exclude purely civilian or sport arts from the grouping, than it'd make to exclude Krav Maga.
Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2012-10-28 at 10:49 AM.
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    Any news on the class front, mate? Or should we allow this to die?
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    Well, as far as MA related news go, I got my green belt in Kobudo. Karate camp coming up tomorrow morning.

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    I've been sparring quite a bit with longswords, both wooden wasters and steel blunts.
    Kind of twisted my ankle the other day while doing that outside, but it's getting better.

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    One thing i'd like to point out...the idea that fighting arts used in sporting aren't martial arts is modern concept imported from Asia. The traditional western view does not distinguish between sport and self defense. Wrestling was seen as a martial art, as was boxing, as was fencing. The difference was in intent..the intent to kill, the intent to win, the intent to defend oneself.

    You don't need kanji and grafted on philosophies to make a martial art. Nor does your art have to be teh deadlee and for teh streetz.

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    I was sadly unable to attend the last two aikijutsu practices, so I'll have to make up for it sometime (I still got one free lesson after all).
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    Haven't been able to get in for two weeks between the hurricane (club was cancelled) and exam week. But I've been practicing the taekwondo white belt forms. Here's a handy resource for learning taekwondo forms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Martial (adj) =

    1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
    2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
    3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

    Art (noun) =

    6.

    a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
    b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
    7.

    a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
    b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).

    So, anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art. If anything, it would make more sense to exclude purely civilian or sport arts from the grouping, than it'd make to exclude Krav Maga.
    That's not a very good argument. Example: Is beating your chest and grunting a "martial art"? It's something that has been done in war by soldiers resulting from intuitive, instinctive behavior. It fits your set of definitions. Is using a hostage as a shield a martial art? It's been done by soldiers and can be trained or instinctive. I guess the time-honored techniques of "testicle kick", "kidney stab" and "curb stomp" fall under "exercise of intuitive faculties" too. Does carrying a 5-D flashlight and a can of mace make me a practitioner of the martial arts? How about throwing rocks? Cooking is learned through practice, study, and observation, and if an army marches on its stomach then does that mean making lasagna is equatable with kung fu? I'm not trying to be cheeky (well, maybe a little) but that set of definitions is so broad as to be meaningless, where the term "martial arts" has a distinct set of general use definitions. It's like saying I practice "chemical warfare" when I shoot a deer because S + 3 C + 2 KNO3 → N2 + 3 CO2 + K2S. Incidentally, killing a deer with my muzzle loading rifle does absolutely and inarguably by your definition make me a martial artist because it's a definitely a practiced skill and was totally used by soldiers in a fight.

    Curiously, I don't consider myself a martial artist, nor does anybody else that I know, which leads me to believe that your definition is functionally useless because only definitions upon which people agree have any communicative value. I can call my car an elephant--after all it's heavy, has a trunk, has four ground contact points, it can make a loud wailing honking noise, and it costs more than I'd like to feed, and could technically run on peanuts with an equally broad definition of what constitutes a peanut--but that doesn't mean when I ask somebody to get something from my elephant that they'll have any idea what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Saskia; 2012-11-13 at 05:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
    only definitions upon which people agree have any communicative value.
    mind you..talk about or point your definition at enough people...and you're bound to find at least a small group of them disagreeing with it..whatever the definition, whatever the subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
    That's not a very good argument. Example: Is beating your chest and grunting a "martial art"? It's something that has been done in war by soldiers resulting from intuitive, instinctive behavior. It fits your set of definitions.
    It's not systematized, so no. However, beating your chest and grunting is a part of several martial arts. Being hyper literal and calling a single technique an array of techniques is silly.

    is using a hostage as a shield a martial art?
    It is trained for in several, yes.

    I guess the time-honored techniques of "testicle kick", "kidney stab" and "curb stomp" fall under "exercise of intuitive faculties" too.
    Yep. They are techniques.

    Does carrying a 5-D flashlight and a can of mace make me a practitioner of the martial arts?
    Not only that, but the awareness and preparedness Re part of most martial arts too!

    How about throwing rocks?
    Scottish martial art.

    Cooking is learned through practice, study, and observation, and if an army marches on its stomach then does that mean making lasagna is equatable with kung fu?
    Don't be dumb. That's like saying you're Stephen king because you write online and that's like being an author, so you must be a specific author. That's not even a logical argument.

    And yes, food preparation and diet control come
    Up in many martial arts.

    I'm not trying to be cheeky (well, maybe a little) but that set of definitions is so broad as to be meaningless,
    No it's not. You just applied a few words selectively. Use the whole definition.

    Curiously, I don't consider myself a martial artist, nor does anybody else that I know, which leads me to believe that your definition is functionally useless because only definitions upon which people agree have any communicative value.
    You're also not a mechanic, author, plumber, electrician, professional artist, or psychologist, but you've used all of those at one point I'm sure. Now if you were to buckle down and activel learn any one of those, you could use a title related to proficiency.

    You do things which are martial you do things which are systematized. You don't do both in the proper context. that's kind of important.
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    this and following panels are relevant...kinda..

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    Last edited by dehro; 2012-11-13 at 06:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
    Cooking is learned through practice, study, and observation, and if an army marches on its stomach then does that mean making lasagna is equatable with kung fu?
    Technically kung fu means you're really good at something, so if you've spent a lot of time and practice to become really good at making lasagna, you've got good kung fu.

    If we want to get sillier, I can find a number of martial arts movies that take the bill (there's one I remember where two guys are fighting, one using a string of sausages as a pair of nunchunks, the other using a shark's jaws as a kind of chakram).
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-11-14 at 03:03 AM.

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    To most everything Saskia said: Yes.

    Mostly you just picked invidual techniques that sound silly, but all of them are actually part of one martial art or the other. If something is "instinctive" or not is not a point against any of them, because many martial arts try to build upon instinctive reactions - notably, krav maga.

    It is the very core of my point that a lot of things go into martial life, so the umbrella term of "martial arts" is actually much broader than most people think and contains a lot of things beyond punching, kicking, grappling and running away.

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    I've done Taekwondo, a Mixed style called Nido Jitsu that draws form Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Judo, Ju-jitsu, Akido, Escreama, Taekwondo and Kalaripayattu, and I've done a bit of Freestyle wrestling back in school, and dabbled a lot into different forms.

    Jeet Kun Do, Krav maga, Sambo, Savate, Wing Chun and Kaju Kembo are all excellent for self defense purposes. Akido and Tai Chi and Hypkido all have there own value in such situations as well.

    Most forms of Kung Fu that are taught as fighting arts are excellent for picking up weapons techniques for larp or boffering.Though Northern forms are more arial and acrobatic styles typically so they look cooler when you use them. Fencing, Kendo, Long sword Fencing and Escreama all also have value there as well.

    For Competition, Brizilian Ju-jitsu, Mauy Tai, Boxing, Sub-mission Wrestling, Karate, Judo, and Basic Akido and Wing Chun are all very handy. It's worth noting that that is also a mix that would not be a slouch to use in a self defense situation as well.



    So, ultimatly, it depends on what you really want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    It's not systematized, so no.
    Organization and systemization weren't prerequisites for his definition. That's why I included that.

    Being hyper literal and calling a single technique an array of techniques is silly.
    I didn't call a single technique an array of techniques, and I'm taking issue with his hyperliteral definition. If you take the words "martial" and "art" and use that as the basis for what you call a "martial art" then you're not necessarily talking about the same stuff. I'm actually just suggesting that his given definition is 1) not sufficiently similar to the definition used by most people to be immediately understood without explanation, thus rendering a special term as a linguistic shorthand much less useful; and 2) I don't think he supported his position well. Unless I'm totally missing something and in the field the term does actually mean "any war- or conflict-related technique" but that just doesn't seem to be so, including by what you're saying.

    [yes that stuff counts]
    Well okay, that's fair enough. It's just incredibly nonintuitive because of the way people talk; even people trained to administer a good beat down when it becomes necessary, from self defense instructors to Marine corps, don't seem to consider proper use and care of handguns or rifles part of "martial arts" even though they're certainly important martial discipline.

    Don't be dumb. That's like saying you're Stephen king because you write online and that's like being an author, so you must be a specific author. That's not even a logical argument.
    Sure. Again that's my entire point; that was why I included it. I wanted to know exactly how far he accepted his own definition because I don't think it's a terribly meaningful one. I don't really get the feeling you and I are disagreeing here.

    No it's not. You just applied a few words selectively. Use the whole definition.
    Yeah. That's exactly what I did. I applied the words "martial" and "art" independently, just like Frozen Feet was suggesting should be done for the phrase's definition. You are literally telling me that I'm wrong and then saying exactly what I said, but still insisting that you disagree? What is this I don't even...

    So let's narrow it down to something that's pretty big, highly systematized and by Frozen Feet's definition (because that's what I'm disputing) inarguably included in the phrase "martial arts" that most people don't seem to consider as falling under the term "martial arts". Do you consider the skill set of firearms competence, including target identification and the ability to quickly and accurately fire upon targets, to be a martial art? Does your opinion change just because I'm shooting deer or rodents instead of people? If it does, then you're not using the definition that he gave:
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet
    anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art.
    You're also not a mechanic, author, plumber, electrician, professional artist, or psychologist, but you've used all of those at one point I'm sure. Now if you were to buckle down and activel learn any one of those, you could use a title related to proficiency.
    Precisely what I said, and again I don't know what you're disagreeing with. I don't claim a title, but by his definition I could claim "martial artist" because I'm competent in the use of certain weapons of war. Sure, nobody uses a Hawken or an M1 Garand in war anymore, but by his given definition obsolescence of technology is not relevant, nor is obsolescence of technique.

    You do things which are martial you do things which are systematized. You don't do both in the proper context. that's kind of important.
    No, he's made it pretty clear context doesn't matter by the inclusion of the clause "or has once been used". He's talking about methodology and whether it's been used by soldiers in combat, context of the actions themselves are irrelevant as long as they have been performed in the context of military conflict.

    By your definition though, what is the proper combination of system and context to make something a martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    To most everything Saskia said: Yes.

    Mostly you just picked invidual techniques that sound silly, but all of them are actually part of one martial art or the other. If something is "instinctive" or not is not a point against any of them, because many martial arts try to build upon instinctive reactions - notably, krav maga.

    It is the very core of my point that a lot of things go into martial life, so the umbrella term of "martial arts" is actually much broader than most people think and contains a lot of things beyond punching, kicking, grappling and running away.
    I wasn't trying to sound silly (except kind of with lasagna ), I honestly wasn't sure where you drew the line, but if you don't draw a rigid line as to what constitutes a martial art then I guess it does sound silly.

    I wasn't saying instinct was a point against something, either, I was asking if untrained actions count.

    all of them are actually part of one martial art or the other.
    See this is what's confusing me about your definition. Is the inclusion in an accepted system important for being considered a martial art, or is it just anything that has been done in the context of martial conflict?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Technically kung fu means you're really good at something, so if you've spent a lot of time and practice to become really good at making lasagna, you've got good kung fu.
    That is fantastic. Also interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Technically kung fu means you're really good at something, so if you've spent a lot of time and practice to become really good at making lasagna, you've got good kung fu.

    If we want to get sillier, I can find a number of martial arts movies that take the bill (there's one I remember where two guys are fighting, one using a string of sausages as a pair of nunchunks, the other using a shark's jaws as a kind of chakram).
    So it works like the Japanese Tokui Waza then? Neat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    I've done Taekwondo, a Mixed style called Nido Jitsu that draws form Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Judo, Ju-jitsu, Akido, Escreama, Taekwondo and Kalaripayattu, and I've done a bit of Freestyle wrestling back in school, and dabbled a lot into different forms.*

    Jeet Kun Do, Krav maga, Sambo, Savate, Wing Chun and Kaju Kembo are all excellent for self defense purposes. Akido and Tai Chi and Hypkido all have there own value in such situations as well.*

    Most forms of Kung Fu that are taught as fighting arts are excellent for picking up weapons techniques for larp or boffering.Though Northern forms are more arial and acrobatic styles typically so they look cooler when you use them. Fencing, Kendo, Long sword Fencing and Escreama all also have value there as well.*

    For Competition, Brizilian Ju-jitsu, Mauy Tai, Boxing, Sub-mission Wrestling, Karate, Judo, and Basic Akido and Wing Chun are all very handy. It's worth noting that that is also a mix that would not be a slouch to use in a self defense situation as well.*



    So, ultimatly, it depends on what you really want.
    Kaju is fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
    Organization and systemization weren't prerequisites for his definition. That's why I included that.
    Bullcrap. That just means you didn't bother reading what you were picking apart, and everything you've said is meaningless due to being not only uninformed, but purposefully ignorant.

    Watch;


    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Martial (adj) =

    • 1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
    • 2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
    • 3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
    [/URL]
    Art (noun) =*
      • 6.
      • a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
      • b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
  • 7.
  • a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
  • b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).
  • I didn't call a single technique an array of techniques, and I'm taking issue with his hyperliteral definition. If you take the words "martial" and "art" and use that as the basis for what you call a "martial art" then you're not necessarily talking about the same stuff. I'm actually just suggesting that his given definition is 1) not sufficiently similar to the definition used by most people to be immediately understood without explanation, thus rendering a special term as a linguistic shorthand much less useful; and 2) I don't think he supported his position well. Unless I'm totally missing something and in the field the term does actually mean "any war- or conflict-related technique" but that just doesn't seem to be so, including by what you're saying.
    Seifukujutsu is a martial art.

    [quoye]
    Well okay, that's fair enough. It's just incredibly nonintuitive because of the way people talk; [/quote]

    Which is why I'm going through the trouble of correcting people.

    even people trained to administer a good beat down when it becomes necessary, from self defense instructors to Marine corps, don't seem to consider proper use and care of handguns or rifles part of "martial arts" even though they're certainly important martial discipline.
    The military teaches martial arts. Every soldier and marine I've spoken to supplements modern army combatives training with "traditional" martial arts. Including noting that rifle techniques are similar to spear and halberd techniques. Hell, the corps even teaches a specifically martial art martial art. Trainers learn other arts specifically to bring them in to combat training, and off the books, shooting instructors use martial arts manuals including Zen Archery to help learn patience, aiming and breathing while shooting.

    Yeah. That's exactly what I did. I applied the words "martial" and "art" independently, just like Frozen Feet was suggesting should be done for the phrase's definition. You are literally telling me that I'm wrong and then saying exactly what I said, but still insisting that you disagree? What is this I don't even...
    Except frozen feet didn't say apply them separately.

    Precisely what I said, and again I don't know what you're disagreeing with. I don't claim a title, but by his definition I could claim "martial artist" because I'm competent in the use of certain weapons of war. Sure, nobody uses a Hawken or an M1 Garand in war anymore, but by his given definition obsolescence of technology is not relevant, nor is obsolescence of technique.
    At this point I'm pointing out that the definition of martial arts, and whether or not you consider yourself a martial artist, are entirely separate things, and this is irrelevant to the issue at hand. It's at best a tangential problem, but you're using it as basis for why "martial art" doesn't mean what it means.

    By your definition though, what is the proper combination of system and context to make something a martial art?
    Mindfulness toward what you're doing, mostly. If you punch things a lot and get good at it, you still probably know nothing about punching. If you think about it, recognize it as a technique and can hone it, it's a martial art.

    Same with food prep. Or situational awareness. Or social manipulation even, provided they also meet the martial criteria.

    Now, does being able to fight well in self defense make you a martial artist? Probably not, because you aren't using it in that context. Or thinking about it in that context. Or even aware it's possible in that context, as far as cooking and medical aid go.

    See this is what's confusing me about your definition. Is the inclusion in an accepted system important for being considered a martial art, or is it just anything that has been done in the context of martial conflict?
    Reread "art".
    It doesn't have to be an "accepted" system, whatever that means, but it does have to be part of a system, no matter what level of abstraction you put it at. A single technique (kick in the balls") and an understanding of the continuum of force counts, because you're using a system for when fighting is and is not really acceptable. "Don't hit girls" is a holdover from prior times and a stricture of the gentleman's art of fisticuffs, that being the acknowledgement that you can beat the snot out of a fellow testosteroner, but not a wimmen or a chil'. It's an amateur martial art.

    And none of this conflicts with Frozen Feet's definitions at all. I'm testy because you seemingly ignored the definition, in an attempt to pick apart the definition.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-13 at 07:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Bullcrap. That just means you didn't bother reading what you were picking apart, and everything you've said is meaningless due to being not only uninformed, but purposefully ignorant.
    Dude what the hell? I can't say I know why you're being a ****, but
    a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
    b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties
    It doesn't have to be organized or systematized by those two definitions of "art", and
    1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
    2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
    3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
    doesn't necessitate organized or systematic training. Peasant armies were a thing in the past, and untrained and poorly trained soldiers exist today so none of the definitions of martial actually do any more than loosely suggest organization based on cultural biases.

    Seifukujutsu is a martial art.
    Declarative statements are not arguments, nor are they sets of rules. Just because X or Y is a martial art does not 1) explain your definition of martial art, or 2) explain why it falls under that heading.

    Which is why I'm going through the trouble of correcting people.
    Okay, but why are you saying incorrect things like "[a] skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties" requires organization or systemization, and why are you being a **** about it?

    The military teaches martial arts. Every soldier and marine I've spoken to supplements modern army combatives training with "traditional" martial arts. Including noting that rifle techniques are similar to spear and halberd techniques. Hell, the corps even teaches a specifically martial art martial art. Trainers learn other arts specifically to bring them in to combat training, and off the books, shooting instructors use martial arts manuals including Zen Archery to help learn patience, aiming and breathing while shooting.
    This is irrelevant. I didn't say that military organizations don't teach martial arts, nor did I so much as give it a shy smile from across the library. I was trying to figure how he defined martial arts in the first place because I've never heard a definition so broad and don't know how such a broad definition can be useful.

    Except frozen feet didn't say apply them separately.
    I didn't.

    At this point I'm pointing out that the definition of martial arts, and whether or not you consider yourself a martial artist, are entirely separate things, and this is irrelevant to the issue at hand. It's at best a tangential problem, but you're using it as basis for why "martial art" doesn't mean what it means.
    If "the point" was the West Indies then you could call yourself Magellan for this gem. It was a tangent illustrative of why I don't think it applies. It was not a stand-alone argument. It was a derived argument from the fact that most people don't consider the skills of hunting as "martial arts" even though they apply by his definition (again, "ANYTHING done by soldiers in a fight").

    Mindfulness toward what you're doing, mostly. If you punch things a lot and get good at it, you still probably know nothing about punching. If you think about it, recognize it as a technique and can hone it, it's a martial art.
    Better, but still vague. I guess I can take this as your written refusal to answer whether hunting falls under your definition of a martial art. I swear it's like you think I'm trying to catch you in some stupid verbal trap rather than just get a straight answer.

    Same with food prep. Or situational awareness. Or social manipulation even, provided they also meet the martial criteria.
    Don't be dumb. That's like saying you're Stephen king because you write online and that's like being an author, so you must be a specific author. That's not even a logical argument.
    So, it's stupid to ask if making lasagna could be a martial art, but food preparation could be a martial art? Logic much?

    Now, does being able to fight well in self defense make you a martial artist? Probably not, because you aren't using it in that context. Or thinking about it in that context. Or even aware it's possible in that context, as far as cooking and medical aid go.
    Again, you refuse to offer what you consider "martial context" and only further obfuscate the issue by saying self defense isn't necessarily martial art, but making lasagna might be even though you said that was a dumb question? Dude seriously? Are you even reading your own **** here?

    Reread "art".
    It doesn't have to be an "accepted" system, whatever that means, but it does have to be part of a system, no matter what level of abstraction you put it at. A single technique (kick in the balls") and an understanding of the continuum of force counts, because you're using a system for when fighting is and is not really acceptable. "Don't hit girls" is a holdover from prior times and a stricture of the gentleman's art of fisticuffs, that being the acknowledgement that you can beat the snot out of a fellow testosteroner, but not a wimmen or a chil'. It's an amateur martial art.
    [beating your chest and grunting i]s not systematized
    Okay, so you've just redefined "system" to mean "anything that can be reasonably defended". But beating your chest and grunting is, was, and has been used as an intimidation tactic, because animalistic noises disturb people and displays of instinctive behaviors suggestive of violence can make people unwilling to take chances. I don't see how a nut kick and chest pounding are functionally different, except that one is definitely not systematized according to you. So congratulations, we're back to square one with definitions so broad they might as well not exist.

    I'm testy because you seemingly ignored the definition, in an attempt to pick apart the definition.
    No, I didn't. That would be what you're doing with everything I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet
    anything that is used, or has once been used, in a fight by soldiers, is a Martial Art.
    This should not be this difficult and there's no excuse for being mean about it. You're testy because you read too much into what I said and started making baseless assumptions, and now you're trying to tell me that your assumptions are actually my motivations, and obfuscating your own points and flatly contradicting yourself (again, asking if lasagna making could be a martial art is stupid, but food preparation could be a martial art).

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    Teebagging is a martial art. It's a highly structured practice used almost exclusively by (imaginary digital) warriors.
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