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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    I do aikido, and I fight pretty similarly. It's a huge help, and I'd recommend it.

    That said, I'm not entirely above headbutting someone in the nose if it'll stop a fight quicker.
    Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet. I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet. I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.
    I know, if I ever tried to do the exact moves I use in the dojo in a way that wouldn't make my sensei facetatami, I'd get demolished. But the concepts, learning how to read where someone's going to go, how to move quickly and smoothly, what joints are tender and how to calm the hell down when you need to.

    That, mixed with enough boxing and kick-stuff-fu to not embarrass myself, and I can successfully fight off most people half my size.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Martial Arts In The Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.
    ...quoted because it's the truth and worth reading again. All that fancy potential stuff is great for exercise. But really shouldn't be used in the street.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet.
    any 12 year old doing any kind of martial arts believes himself to be Bruce Lee reincarnated....it's kind of part of the mystique and most martial artists who started out young will have to admit to a similar frame of mind at some stage in their life... then they get into their first couple of fights and learn some sense (also, put on some weight and develop some actual muscle power..)

    I've practiced Kung Fu and Tae Kwon do for a number of years, during high school.. tried to pick it up later but life kind of got in the way
    During those years I've learned the basics, a few fancy moves that are never to be used away from a padded environment unless you've actually practiced away from a somewhat padded environment (and I had not)... but most importantly, I've learned the mystique art of
    How-Not-To-Get-Into-A-Fight-Do
    In other words, common sense, worldwide travel experience, a healthy dose of cynicism and those basic instincts developed through martial arts have taught me when to walk away, when to avoid confrontation, what path to walk down on on a dark night in a strange neighbourhood, what the quickest ways are to arm myself with something useful for self defence, what situations not to get into, how to steer conversations away from a fist-fight and how to make the other guy believe that getting in a fight with me really is not the smartest move he'll ever make.
    So far, I've only been unable to avoid a fight on 2 occasions, after my formative years, and I came out on top in those..so I'd say I'm doing rather well.
    I do like to think that whatever little I learned in my martial arts training has to do with the mindframe that gets me out of hairy situations when I stumble in one and with how I approach "reading" the people I interact with..whether that makes me a martial artist of sorts or not, I don't know.
    probably not.
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-11-17 at 04:32 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Aye. I think the biggest thing I've learned is getting hit sucks and I don't want to do it. I think a good martial arts class will beat the Bruce Lee out of you, honestly. Well, if it's oriented for actual use.

    Personally I just want to get into something simple, calm and entirely non-combative. Like shintaido.
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    You'll learn which moves you actually can pull off against a resisting enemy if your training includes free sparring instead of just practicing those 'fancy moves' against someone who mostly cooperates. About 1/4 of our Jujutsu sessions is ground randori, and of the dozens more or less fancy moves we learned I used rather few in there(granted, a good number assume you are standing instead of on the ground). I usually just go for the throat, and I'm at a point where I can reliably choke someone with a bit less experience with no way for them to get out of the hold. Quite useful I think, as I surmise street thugs are more likely to train a martial art focused on kicking/punching than wrestling.

    I'm still rather novice, so I still need to get to the point where I can use most moves against someone who really doesn't want me to. Most things I do are improvised and less than ideal. Though I wish I could replicate that joint lock where I used just my legs.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Too be honest, the main thing that has stopped me from trying to learn a martial art is the fact that while I was in school I fought a LOT of "martial artists." Mainly karate and tae kwon do, and generally speaking, its embarrassing how quickly a 12 year old loses a fight when he tries to pull off some fancy move only to realize, yeah, he doesnt have the speed to do that sort of thing without getting his butt kicked yet. I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.
    If you want to avoid that, the best styles are the styles designed or redesigned for use in combat and bloodsport.

    Someone mentioned krav maga earlier, that's a brutally efficient style which concerns itself only with taking the enemy out as quickly and efficiently as possible.

    In a similar vein, muay thai or thai kickboxing (two names for the same style) is also brutal and efficient with flair only showing up in the advanced portions of the style. The basics are all about hitting hard and fast with your hands, shins, knees, and elbows; while preventing your opponent from doing the same. (yes, conditioning the shins hurts like the devil for a fair while, at first; but once you get used to it, it's like having a baseball bat attached to your knee.)

    It's a bit tough to find a teacher, but most styles of ninjutsu are also built around the idea of quickly and efficiently taking enemies out of a fight. It's also generally coupled with teachings about how to read opponents and avoid notice, moreso than most styles; though all responsible teachers, in any style, will teach you the importance of avoiding a physical conflict if at all possible and a few basic means of trying to diffuse a situation before it escalates to combat.

    Even western boxing can really shine in a street fight if you supplement it with at least some counter-grappling techniques from a style like jiu-jitsu or judo.

    Btw, here's a dirty little secret that most traditionalist martial artists don't like to admit: there's no such thing as a single style that's good for all situations. Becoming a complete, well-rounded fighter requires at least some cross-training.

    Oh, and someone said something about pain. Yes, training in the martial arts as they pertain to actual combat hurts. As long as proper safety is observed it rarely leads to injury, but it almost always hurts a bit if there's free-sparring, and it's exceedingly difficult to learn to read people's moves and to learn your reach and proper timing without at least some free-sparring.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I dont want to be one of those guys who gets into a fight, tries to bust out a move, and gets to kiss the pavement because while they work well in spars and training, they dont work well in a fight against some brawler.
    "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
    QFT.

    It cannot be emphasized enough that the best way to handle actual combat is to avoid it as best you can.

    There are people who say you should avoid it at all cost, but I'm old-school in the idea that there are some things a man has to fight for.
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    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    ...avoiding combat is not a style. Avoiding combat is accomplished by being aware and being able to run further, or longer, or more efficiently than the opponent. There is nothing opposing / aggressive about it. Studying one's habits when running and trying to improve them can be construed as an art, but not exactly martial.

    In other words, "Considering Retreat as a military tactic does not fill an entire art. It is one technique and a useful one."

    ...traditional martial arts styles having a, "...dirty secret about cross-training," is approximate to saying, "All hand puppet actors failed ventriloquism." Every person's body is different. A wise teacher will tell their student which parts of the particular style that they teach will function for the student and which will not. Those that care about the student will encourage them to seek good instruction else-where where the style in question falls short.

    Real fighters and warriors are not dedicated to one school or style. They seek out what works for them, what will work against a variety of opponent types, and then hone their skills. A martial artist is interested in the art itself and the transmission of the collection from one mind to the next. Kata can be very beautiful and it gives the artist some-thing constructive to do with their body and mind other than thinking about and / or practicing hurting others.


    ...I'm very sorry if any of this comes off as curt. It just seemed that there was some...myth / rhetoric rearing up in the thread. I mean no offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
    Yea and Nay. You've got to start somewhere, so the trick is in failing under controlled conditions so it's not public an you don't wind up with crippling bone formation. It like dancin in that way. Everyone sucks the first time. But hen that first time is could be completely different than what you'd expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...avoiding combat is not a style. Avoiding combat is accomplished by being aware and being able to run further, or longer, or more efficiently than the opponent. There is nothing opposing / aggressive about it. Studying one's habits when running and trying to improve them can be construed as an art, but not exactly martial.

    In other words, "Considering Retreat as a military tactic does not fill an entire art. It is one technique and a useful one."

    ...traditional martial arts styles having a, "...dirty secret about cross-training," is approximate to saying, "All hand puppet actors failed ventriloquism." Every person's body is different. A wise teacher will tell their student which parts of the particular style that they teach will function for the student and which will not. Those that care about the student will encourage them to seek good instruction else-where where the style in question falls short.

    Real fighters and warriors are not dedicated to one school or style. They seek out what works for them, what will work against a variety of opponent types, and then hone their skills. A martial artist is interested in the art itself and the transmission of the collection from one mind to the next. Kata can be very beautiful and it gives the artist some-thing constructive to do with their body and mind other than thinking about and / or practicing hurting others.


    ...I'm very sorry if any of this comes off as curt. It just seemed that there was some...myth / rhetoric rearing up in the thread. I mean no offense.
    Well put. But I do not see the problem with rhetoric? Though checking to make sure we were on the same page shows that I've been working with an incorrect understanding of rhetoric.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    The comment about the "dirty little secret" was more a social comment than a comment about the martial arts. Many martial arts instructors instruct their style not only for love of the art but as their livelyhood. Many of these instructors will play-up their style as better than other styles, not because it's necessarily true, but because they need to put food on the table and offering the "best" style tends to draw more customers.

    Then you consider pride, one of the biggest failings of many martial artists, and you get that much more talk about their preffered style being the "best."

    In my experience, the combination of pride and livelyhood is more common amongst traditionalist than non-traditionalists.

    Note that while your body may lend itself to a particular style, training only in that style will leave you with its vulnerabilities as well as its strengths; for example, aikido is primarily a style of small-joint locks and throws based on the manipulation of an enemy's momentum and center of gravity. This is very useful against irrate lay-persons and heavy hitting hard styles such as certain schools of karate and, to a certain extent, tae kwon do. It'll play rather poorly against a style like some styles of kung-fu or ninjutsu that focus on lightning quick strikes from oblique angles and have a heavy emphasis on a strong sense of balance.

    I freely grant that it will be uncommon to get into a fight with another martial artist, much less one who is an advanced student of an exotic style, but it's not impossible. If it does happen, wouldn't you rather you had more than one set of techniques to rely on?

    Then of course there's the fact that just as some styles work well for people of a certain body type, many styles have difficulty in dealing with people of a certain body type; for example, if your body lends itself particularly well to judo, you'll find yourself having a tough time against a person who's notably shorter than you, since it's difficult to get your center of gravity below theirs for many throws. If that person has any kind of background in a grappling style, themselves, you're going to have a serious problem on your hands.

    Then, of course, there are styles that are incomplete in their own right. Most styles of western boxing and many styles of kickboxing don't teach much, if anything, about what to do in a clinch or if a fight takes you to the ground, since these styles are primarily sporting in nature and clinch and ground fighting are against the rules.

    As I said, if you want to be a complete, well-rounded fighter then you need to do at least some cross-training.

    Cross-training in other atheletic endeavors isn't necessarily a bad idea either, since physical fitness translates just fine. I've recently begun to supplement my fighting skills with a bit of parkour/freerunning. It's demanding and fun in a completely different way than any combat sport, but the cardio and necessity of situational awareness add to my combat capability as well.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-17 at 07:24 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Martial Arts in the Playground

    ...rhetoric in the colloquial sense of artful words used to mystify / confuse others. The myth word did come first.


    1
    ...I'll try to keep this simple. "If a person told me that their system would be enough to suit all of my self-defense needs, I'd probably avoid learning from that person."

    Why? Because at the end of the year, a person's body type lends them to a particular teacher. When a student possesses a physique like their teacher's that student will benefit from directly applicable knowledge. This knowledge can also take the form of highly personalized advice. The kind of help that comes from an instructor whose quest was tinted with the type of physique which their student lives in.
    Last edited by Story Time; 2012-11-17 at 08:00 AM.

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    Hey Kelb, dont worry, if I, after having mastered my martial art, happen to come across another martial artist from a different school that wants to fight, I know how its handled. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li movies have prepared me. We must construct a platform 20 feet in the air, and do battle in the town square. The winner gets to own the losers school. And the secret to winning is to have a secondary style of martial arts that is 100x as lethally effective. Like kung fu turning into drunken boxing.
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    I agree with whoever up there said that there isn't any best style and that, most times, you have to broaden your experience to be at all ranges in a fight.
    Styles aside, one thing that you need to emphasis, IMHO, is to be almost obsessive about training. I see people who do the twice (or once) a week class for an hour and expect that to be the thing that saves them in a fight.
    I study a style of Hapkido and our main emphasis is joint locks. We do grappling, forms, punching, kicking, weapons, etc. When I practice at home or when I get down to the dojang to practice on off time, I do as much as I can so that when I'm in class I can choose to emphasis the joint locks and grappling because in the three fights I've been in since I started about 20 years ago, it was the joint locks and grappling that ended the fights for me. This book to me is a great primer (even if his ideas on nutrition are horrible).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFallenOne View Post
    You'll learn which moves you actually can pull off against a resisting enemy if your training includes free sparring instead of just practicing those 'fancy moves' against someone who mostly cooperates. About 1/4 of our Jujutsu sessions is ground randori, and of the dozens more or less fancy moves we learned I used rather few in there(granted, a good number assume you are standing instead of on the ground). I usually just go for the throat, and I'm at a point where I can reliably choke someone with a bit less experience with no way for them to get out of the hold. Quite useful I think, as I surmise street thugs are more likely to train a martial art focused on kicking/punching than wrestling.

    I'm still rather novice, so I still need to get to the point where I can use most moves against someone who really doesn't want me to. Most things I do are improvised and less than ideal. Though I wish I could replicate that joint lock where I used just my legs.
    How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Hey Kelb, dont worry, if I, after having mastered my martial art, happen to come across another martial artist from a different school that wants to fight, I know how its handled. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li movies have prepared me. We must construct a platform 20 feet in the air, and do battle in the town square. The winner gets to own the losers school. And the secret to winning is to have a secondary style of martial arts that is 100x as lethally effective. Like kung fu turning into drunken boxing.
    I'd love to learn drunken boxing, but in more of a "for the lulz" kind of way.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I'd love to learn drunken boxing, but in more of a "for the lulz" kind of way.
    I would like to learn it more for the distinctiveness and entertainment value. There would just be something amusing about being able to do those kinds of moves and use them to win a fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.
    This is why, for actual fighting, you need to either study a style that actually incorporates more than just striking, or cross-train in a grappling style so that you know at least a bit about countering a grab. Even just within tae kwon do, though, you learn to read the opponents moves and how to find your reach and timing.

    If you where a thai boxer you'd be fighting in a clinch as often as not, and getting a leg caught, while not particularly common (a properly thrown roundhouse is frighteningly fast and blocking is much easier than catching while trying to grab a leg kick exposes you to hand and elbow strikes), does happen often enough that you'd have some idea how to handle it.

    Of course, if all you're concerned with is being able to beat up the other guy in a fight, joining an MMA gym or club is probably your best bet. The attendant physical conditioning and near-full contact practice (even MMA enthusiast wear safety gear in practice) will build up a certain degree of toughness in resisting a successful attack and get you into prime condition. It's going to hurt like hell though.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-17 at 08:34 PM.
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    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    This is why, for actual fighting, you need to either study a style that actually incorporates more than just striking, or cross-train in a grappling style so that you know at least a bit about countering a grab. Even just within tae kwon do, though, you learn to read the opponents moves and how to find your reach and timing.
    Aye, and does anybody have a suggestion for a good grappling style to look for to supplement taekwondo?

    If you where a thai boxer you'd be fighting in a clinch as often as not, and getting a leg caught, while not particularly common (a properly thrown roundhouse is frighteningly fast and blocking is much easier than catching while trying to grab a leg kick exposes you to hand and elbow strikes), does happen often enough that you'd have some idea how to handle it.
    Depends too on whether you mind much "blocking" with your ribs while going for the leg...I never noticed my last broken rib, so a few more probably wouldn't be too bad.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    ...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

    ...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

    Never turn your back to a threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

    ...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

    Never turn your back to a threat.
    But showing off gets you more points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...rhetoric in the colloquial sense of artful words used to mystify / confuse others. The myth word did come first.
    I understood rhetorical speech to be designed to prompt thought, possibly along certain lines. I goin instead it's less about bein thought provoking and more about being persuasive. Ah well, different dictionaries and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.
    Depends on the art? In Kajukenbo "stay within the art" meant "Don't bite and don't grab a weapon until you've got at least a green belt". But one of the points of kaju is to cross train; you can't go beyond second degree without proof that you've incorporated something else into your regimen in a meaningful manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Aye, and does anybody have a suggestion for a good grappling style to look for to supplement taekwondo?
    Small circle jujitsu, or qinna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

    ...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

    Never turn your back to a threat.
    if done right, a roundhouse kick (unless I've got something else in mind) doesn't really turn your back to the target. Say, right leg? Right leg comes forward, out and around, kicking in front of you in an arc. During practice you put your whole body into it and turn all the way around to avoid injury and maintain force. When you actually hit something, you stop turning and they start moving.

    If you mean instead, say, left foot crosses right, you present your back and then spin, hitting with right foot, yeah that's pretty high risk with only high reward in certain situations. I think it's like a spinning backfist, and you would only do that during an opponet's recovery period, but I'm not sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...I'm tempted to say, "I would never use a round-house kick in a fight." But it would be more fair to say, "I can think of many better uses for my feet in a fight than an unbalancing high-kick which exposes the groin."

    ...it is theoretically possible to trounce an opponent, especially if they start the fight drunk, to the point where a high kick could function with less than normal danger. But really...deep down in my ( our? ) heart...I know that it's just showing off.

    Never turn your back to a threat.
    Wrong roundhouse. The kick that's called a roundhouse in muay thai is generally aimed at the ribs or kidney, not the head, though it can be used for a head kick as well. It's also executed a bit closer than what most people think of when they hear "roundhouse" since muay thai kicks are delivered with the shin instead of the foot. Combined with the frightening speed I mentioned before, it's not a kick to be taken lightly. It wasn't rhetoric when I said a well conditioned thai fighter's shin is like a baseball bat hanging from his knee.

    If the thai roundhouse is properly executed, it doesn't expose the groin and any foe foolish enough to choose to neither avoid it nor block it is probably going to be out of the fight after it breaks a rib or does a bit of organ damage. If he blocks, your back is never exposed, and if he evades he's denying himself the opportunity to attack your back by either moving too far away with no time to reverse direction or staying in front of you by moving with the kick. Nevermind that a skilled fighter never throws a big power kick or a big power punch without unbalancing his opponent with smaller, faster attacks first; regardless of style.

    Muay thai hasn't changed all that much since fire-arms were introduced to that part of the world and unarmed combat skills began to lose importance. It's still a very effective fighting style for real combat.

    @ nonparlpf: I've supplemented my striking styles primarily with judo for take-downs and brazillian jiu-jitsu for ground fighting, though I've also incorporated some elements of free-style and greco-roman wrestling. I've only picked up bits and pieces of tae kwon do, though, so I can't say with absolute certainty that other styles wouldn't pair with it better.

    I don't hold a belt in any style, but I practice with those that do and incorporate as much as I can into my own repetoire. There's a growing sentiment amongst MMA enthusiasts that cross-training from the beginning makes you a better all-around fighter than trying to master one style and only later incorporating elements of other styles, and it's a sentiment to which I subscribe.

    When I say that I primarily use judo and jiu-jitsu as my grappling styles what I really mean is that most of the elements to my grappling repetoire come from those styles.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-18 at 03:26 AM.
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    ...I'm...going to stop right here. Ya'll have a good thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Depends on the art? In Kajukenbo "stay within the art" meant "Don't bite and don't grab a weapon until you've got at least a green belt". But one of the points of kaju is to cross train; you can't go beyond second degree without proof that you've incorporated something else into your regimen in a meaningful manner.
    Really? That's an actual thing? That's pretty amazing (though I imagine also meaning it'd cost more since you'd either be very good at picking up other techniques yourself or taking classes in other martial arts); I wonder if there are other martial arts that have something similar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...I'm...going to stop right here. Ya'll have a good thread.
    Something the matter?


    Also, with regards to MMA (and mixed martial arts), I often see them merging hard-striking from stuff like boxing, Muay Thai, full-contact karate and occassionally Taekwondo with grappling from judo, jiu-jitsu and sambo. I'm wondering, how well would aikido/aikijutsu function into that, or some of the Chinese styles like Praying Mantis, that strike specific points rather than go for hard strikes?

    ...would that even be allowed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Really? That's an actual thing? That's pretty amazing (though I imagine also meaning it'd cost more since you'd either be very good at picking up other techniques yourself or taking classes in other martial arts); I wonder if there are other martial arts that have something similar?
    I thought it was pretty neat, but I can also see how it would backfire. Anything of the sort is only as good as the panel that has to grade your addition or whatnot, so it could become a small fraternity of folks patting each other on the back, or small biases between teachers could become magnified. It's also limited by what the one person could take in; odds are they are only getting about 80% of what they are being taught, so grabbing outside stuff is really just shoring up what's normally lost to attrition. And it gets schmucky from there, as higher levels of black belt degree required being a teacher of the art, or eventually having other teachers who were your student. It could promote aggrandizement without the level of advancement one woul expect; big difference between refining your skill for a couple years while you build up a student base, and just dumping cash for a studio to get your next stripe you know?

    Something the matter?
    Ideological differences, I think.

    Also, with regards to MMA (and mixed martial arts), I often see them merging hard-striking from stuff like boxing, Muay Thai, full-contact karate and occassionally Taekwondo with grappling from judo, jiu-jitsu and sambo. I'm wondering, how well would aikido/aikijutsu function into that, or some of the Chinese styles like Praying Mantis, that strike specific points rather than go for hard strikes?

    ...would that even be allowed?
    You mean can they do this in a mixed martial arts match? My guess is no. There are a lot of moves they've stopped teaching to that crowd because they cause too much trauma. You'll almost never see a forward elbow, but they'll drop the back of the elbow onto the enemy plenty because it's safer. I can't remember anything else except fish-hooking they aren't allowed to do... Oh, throat strikes! Which... I'm guessing answers your question, since it's a specific spot targeted for effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Also, with regards to MMA (and mixed martial arts), I often see them merging hard-striking from stuff like boxing, Muay Thai, full-contact karate and occassionally Taekwondo with grappling from judo, jiu-jitsu and sambo. I'm wondering, how well would aikido/aikijutsu function into that, or some of the Chinese styles like Praying Mantis, that strike specific points rather than go for hard strikes?

    ...would that even be allowed?
    I'm not sure what you mean, but all kinds of fish hooking and attempts to tear flesh are banned, so using fingers to try to do that won't do.

    Acupuncture points strikes and other idea generally just won't work against determined, conditioned opponent, so no one bothers.

    Aikido is generally very 'soft' from definition, so it's just not practical for training for full contact combat, all other full contact grappling arts provide holds, wrestling and so on.

    http://www.abcboxing.com/unified_mma_rules.html

    Points 1 to 18 in "fouls" are banned attacks in pro MMA, for interested.

    You'll almost never see a forward elbow, but they'll drop the back of the elbow onto the enemy plenty because it's safer.
    How exactly you define "forward elbows", though?

    And no one really does anything beacuse it's "safer", everyone wants to win so does most damaging thing he can within the rules....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I practice Western martial arts, both armed and unarmed. Heavy rapier is my specialty, but I've also learned the basics of quarterstaff, longsword (bastard sword if you're playing D&D; the game has weapon terms slightly messed up), and Renaissance-era German wrestling. For self-defense, these have the advantage of not having been actively stripped of their most effective components over decades of being hyped as an exercise and discipline method, but at least the armed ones have the drawback of it being socially unacceptable to cart around a sword.
    Though occurs to me, if you can get a concealed weapons permit and there legal for ownership/carry/use in your area, a sword cane or umbrella sword would be a fairly easy way around it.

    It's socially unacceptable to carry a sword, unless they don't know you have a sword on you until your being attacked. Once your being attacked, I promise, most sensible people will just be grateful that you took the precaution of making sure if necessary you could protect yourself and those in the immediate vicinity. And unless and until that comes to pass, what they don't know isn't gonna hurt them.



    Edit:

    With reguards to Morph's question above.

    Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.

    Wing Chun is another form that learning the basics of is useful for simply because it's good at teaching you how to get in there face, jam there moves so they have a hard time mounting a counter, and keep beating on them. Plus, the conditioning to the arms and shins is crazy.
    Last edited by Metahuman1; 2012-11-18 at 10:31 AM.
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    I don't think there's a single country where a sword cane is a legal item to be carried around. in fact in most countries you can't even buy one unless it's an antique (100+ years old) and even then you need a permit...just to buy it..forget walking around with it.
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